Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Sandwich on January 03, 2002, 06:26:00 pm
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Tell me if I'm on to something here:
GTA builds Orion-class ships to combat Vasudans.
Shivans come along and wipe out Orions with the Lucifer's beams.
GTVA builds Colossus to combat Lucifer-class ships.
Shivans bring in the Sathanas and wipe out the Colossus.
And now, even though it ain't canon, this is the design mindset that there is in the community:
GTVA builds Charon with the ability to combat possible Sathanas-class ships.
Can anyone guess what happens next? (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/rolleyes.gif)
Now, I'm not BWO-bashing - far from it. I'm just picking out a pattern in "ship" design that has proven to fail time and again - building something with a specific purpose of countering a known enemy factor. And so ships get bigger and badder, with no end in sight.
But on the other hand, what alternative is there? What could the GTVA change to break out of this sick cycle of ever-increasing power-houses?
How do you fight a kindergarten bully who's twice as big and three times as strong as you are? Easy.
Play dirty.
Go for the eyes, go for the throat - go for the jugular vein. Hit him where it counts, and then when he goes down, hit him again. Ender's Game, anyone?
Looking at this post, it seems like a p1mp poster for the FS2.9 campaign, and that there should be some sort of p1mping image right here. ;P
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America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.
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Uhh... don't you mean the Golgotha?
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Originally posted by sandwich:
Ender's Game
Good book (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
And that is the only way to go when youre outmatched. Its not about playing fair, that only gets you hurt. Its about surviving, and to hell with what people think of you.
[This message has been edited by Thorn (edited 01-03-2002).]
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Originally posted by Shrike:
Uhh... don't you mean the Golgotha?
Umm... no, I meant the Charon, the portal. It's armament is very heavy to combat possible intruding Sathani, from what I understand. But I guess the Golgotha is another example, although I'm not familiar with the intended tactical uses of the Golgotha in combat.
EDIT: Typos - don't think I've ever seen the Sathanas's name misspelled that badly... (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/lol.gif)
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America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.
Know how to use Rhino3D? Want to put your ships into Freespace 2? You've come to the right place ("http://www.geocities.com/sandvich/fs2/rhino_fs2/")!
"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://www.geocities.com/sandvich/index.html"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
[This message has been edited by sandwich (edited 01-03-2002).]
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The Golgotha though is intended as a "giant killer" as the Meson beam is meant to be able to take out a Sathani in 4 or so shots. (now a team of Golgothas... yess...)
Hopefully you'll like the Vasudan's idea for a giant killer better (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
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Ace
Staff member FreeSpace Watch
http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/ ("http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/")
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Hmm, the Charon has heavy weaponry, yes, but that's a side-effect of the subspace gate systemry. I don't remember seeing Sathani being mentioned specifically though.
As for going after the Shivan's weak points, you have to find them first. Something the GTVA has been spectacularly unsuccessful at. There's nothing to hit except warships as far as anyone really knows, (yes, there's comm nodes, but that didn't seem to do much good) so you don't have much options against Shivans.
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The Vasudan version is death by millions of bee stings (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
I'm not so sure how well the Charon will do against a Sathanas, but it will be able to blast whatever tries to go through it.
The Golgotha is supposed to be able to engage the Sathanas, not in a head on confrontation, but in a sucker punch from the rear. Basically, it has enough firepower to destroy a Sathanas before the Sathanas can turn to engage. But its a pretty small margin of error.
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Whatevers.... my point was not to start another "my ship is better then your ship" thread - I wanted some serious discussion about the ways in which the GTVA could better direct it's combat against the Shivans instead of focusing on building bigger and better.
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America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.
Know how to use Rhino3D? Want to put your ships into Freespace 2? You've come to the right place ("http://www.geocities.com/sandvich/fs2/rhino_fs2/")!
"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://www.geocities.com/sandvich/index.html"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
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I already tested one possible- irradiation cruisers that can take out most of a ship's subsystems in a single shot- if they get right up next to it.
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Sub-space missile strikes are a good idea on crippling sub-systems.
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Ace
Staff member FreeSpace Watch
http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/ ("http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/")
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But any good game weapon should be possible to defend against. I think I'll just give out all the curious monstrosities I got from playing with the existing FS POFs and the table files (so yes, they're possible with a little creativity with numbers):
Mines (countermeasures dumped out of mining ships (messed-up suppliers) (40 per ship is a good number- just set the missile lifetime to nearly infinite)
Very slow but powerful and ultra-accurate antifighter missiles- with a little maneuvering you can generally convince an AI fighter to get hit by one, and they can fairly pack enough firepower to kill most things straight off.
Slow-moving, short-ranged primary weapons with ridiculous power consumption put damage approaching that of a Cyclops
Player-available sentry guns (just remove the capability to move forward, or make it only possible with afterburners and that only a little. You haven't played FreeSpace 'till you've played turret)
That's all I can recall at the moment. Might upload these later, if anyone's interested and too damn lazy to spend a max 15 minutes and make their own
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Originally posted by sandwich:
Whatevers.... my point was not to start another "my ship is better then your ship" thread - I wanted some serious discussion about the ways in which the GTVA could better direct it's combat against the Shivans instead of focusing on building bigger and better.
From a defensive point of view, survivability would be increased if a big ship (like Colossus) could split into smaller independent sub-ships when it takes damage to one section... think of the NTF Boadicea in the second FS2 mission; alternatively, think of it as Deimos-sized escape pods (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
It may not be possible with the current FS2 engine, since "Hull Strength" applies to the entire ship, and when it reaches zero, *boom*. But if I were the GTVA, or an design engineer at Subach-Innes or Akheton... (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
Of course this would require massive redundancy -- each section would need all of the subsystems that any vessel needs -- and this wouldn't come cheap. But the alternative is "20 years in the making, it was vaporized in a matter of minutes"
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I see it this way.
Terrans: Humans are known to balance Power with Speed. At times humans portray burt strength and no speed, or speed with no power. IE intercepters and heavy assault fighters. all species do this to some degree but none has it more balanced then humans. atleast when it comes to fighters and bombers. capital ships by humans are there prime example of balance.
SHIVANS show the balance of nothing but brute force. all weapons pointing foward.
anyway to make a long story short... the Colossus wasnt designed with flaws in it. if thought in as a part of a storyline that consisted over time. it is apparent that the Sathanas existed long before the colossus. it was made to deal with Lucifer/Hades class ships and below. not ships as strong as it because they didnt think anything existed as big as it did.
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Originally posted by sandwich:
Tell me if I'm on to something here:
GTA builds Orion-class ships to combat Vasudans.
Shivans come along and wipe out Orions with the Lucifer's beams.
GTVA builds Colossus to combat Lucifer-class ships.
Shivans bring in the Sathanas and wipe out the Colossus.
And now, even though it ain't canon, this is the design mindset that there is in the community:
GTVA builds Charon with the ability to combat possible Sathanas-class ships.
Can anyone guess what happens next? (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/rolleyes.gif)
Now, I'm not BWO-bashing - far from it. I'm just picking out a pattern in "ship" design that has proven to fail time and again - building something with a specific purpose of countering a known enemy factor. And so ships get bigger and badder, with no end in sight.
But on the other hand, what alternative is there? What could the GTVA change to break out of this sick cycle of ever-increasing power-houses?
How do you fight a kindergarten bully who's twice as big and three times as strong as you are? Easy.
Play dirty.
Go for the eyes, go for the throat - go for the jugular vein. Hit him where it counts, and then when he goes down, hit him again. Ender's Game, anyone?
Looking at this post, it seems like a p1mp poster for the FS2.9 campaign, and that there should be some sort of p1mping image right here. ;P
where was it said that TERRANS made orions to fight vasudans? i thought they were created before they met vasudans. i may have my history mixed up...
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New Project Leader of the New Dawn Resolution Project in conjuction with the Metal Siren Network and staff member of The Eden Project.
The Metal Siren Network: Freespace 2: New Dawn Resolution - The Eden Project ("http://www.angelfire.com/realm/nd_resolution/")
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Not really. Here's how I see it...
Sathanas: Massive destructive capabilities focused almost entirely to narrow front cone- ideal for for attacks on large capships, particularly sneak attacks (i.e. the Sathanas jmps in right next to its target and blasts it with one or two beam hits before the enemy can react adequately- obviously the Shivans designed the Sath with this in mind, looking at the way it acts in the nebula with devastating effectiveness vs. how it does exposed between jumps). Still, with its enormous power the Sath can sometimes simply bludgeon its way through a capship fight, though it is essentially defenseless against bombers.
Colossus: Features a wide damage arc, nearly 360* of fairly evenly distributed weaponry. This ship is meant to operate best at the center of a large enemy fleet composed of much smaller ships- it can take on and trounce a Hecate fairly easily, but it couldn't deal with a half dozen like the Sathanas could. Altogether the Colossus has the more dangerous application, overall not a good idea in Terran designs. But then, the designers didn't know what sort of enemy it would end up taking on, did they?
My past life as an E2150 combat strategist comes back to me sometimes... Anyway, this is really the lay of things as far as I can tell. As you can see, it's actually the Shivans with the strategy on their side, which is too bad since the best way to make balanced Terran fleets in FS is to have them weaker but smarter. Both are ideal for what they are made for, but sometimes I don't think FREDders realize how best to exploit their strong points, which leaves the Sathanas simply hacking its way through capships and looking dramatic, while the Colossus is rejected because it cannot do same. Throw a few dozen Fenrises, Leviathans, Aeoluses, and miscellaneous fighter/bombers at the C and see how much better it lays down suppressing fire than the Sath.
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Originally posted by deep_eyes:
where was it said that TERRANS made orions to fight vasudans? i thought they were created before they met vasudans. i may have my history mixed up...
Hmm... you may be right - I haven't quite researched it, after all. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tongue.gif)
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America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.
Know how to use Rhino3D? Want to put your ships into Freespace 2? You've come to the right place ("http://www.geocities.com/sandvich/fs2/rhino_fs2/")!
"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://www.geocities.com/sandvich/index.html"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
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the shivan come with the SSTSTGSDest and blow up the whole galaxy.......end of story.
SSTSTGSdest stands for, Shivan Super The Super Turbo Gallactic Super destroyer
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Originally posted by USS Alexander:
the shivan come with the SSTSTGSDest and blow up the whole galaxy.......end of story.
SSTSTGSdest stands for, Shivan Super The Super Turbo Gallactic Super destroyer
(http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/lol.gif)
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You're right. I don't think it should be entirely about building bigger and bigger ships to face each other. There should also be new strategies to deal with the bigger and bigger ships, not just bigger ships to face them.
What's the range of in-system jumps? One of my ideas is that when a Sathanas jumps in against your Colossus, your Colossus (who always keep their jump drives ready to go) jumps into subspace, but not to a different part of the system, but to behind the Sathanas. Then it can wail on the Sathanas with its beams (first targeting the engines... I guess you can see that as another flaw with GTVA captains (or just mission designers), if you know where your enemy's subsystems are, aim your beams at them first), while the Sathanas is trying to turn.
That handles a Sathanas jumping against a Colossus. Sure the Colossus takes damage as the Sathanas fires as soon as it jumps in, but getting away from those forward beams as soon as possible is the key.
To attack a Sathanas though, you could just send a swarm of smaller ships (though having scouted ahead to know in which direction the Sathanas is facing so that your swarm doesn't jump in front of its beams). Granted the Colossus has the greates weapon capacity, but smaller ships are faster and more agile.
The GTVA (or mission/model designers) should also look into strategies that are more like David vs. Goliath, rather than Goliath vs. David.
And about the Orions, I don't remember if it was built to fight the Vasudans, but I know that the Typhon was built to fight the Terrans.
Joe.
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(http://www.joek.com/cgi-local/fs2rev_image.pl) ("http://www.joek.com/other/freespace/")
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theres a certain combat sequence in the movie a little like that (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by deep_eyes:
where was it said that TERRANS made orions to fight vasudans? i thought they were created before they met vasudans. i may have my history mixed up...
Well, you;ve got to wonder;
a/ Was there any need for heavy destroyers before the TV War?
b/ would the Vasudans only build a destroyer 2-3 years (I think) before the start of FS1, if the Orion had been annihilating them for 20-odd years in battle? Or was there a Typhon predecessor?
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You're probably right about that; I doubt that the Terrans initially went out into space heavily armed and were expecting enemies...
Colossus: Features a wide damage arc, nearly 360* of fairly evenly distributed weaponry. This ship is meant to operate best at the center of a large enemy fleet composed of much smaller ships- it can take on and trounce a Hecate fairly easily, but it couldn't deal with a half dozen like the Sathanas could. Altogether the Colossus has the more dangerous application, overall not a good idea in Terran designs. But then, the designers didn't know what sort of enemy it would end up taking on, did they?
That essentially sums up my thoughts on the issue. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif) The Colossus was a very well-engineered warship (except for that dinky fighterbay, but that's another issue (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)) that excelled at its purpose: destroying groups of smaller ships. The unit was intended to be deployed in the middle of a battle and be able to quickly knock out fighter/bomber wings and any warships in the area. It was not meant to fight something of its size, especially when the enemy vessel was optimized for maximum effectiveness against a single large ship. (the Sathanas is just terrible against fighters, but awesome at destroying large warships)
[This message has been edited by CP5670 (edited 01-04-2002).]
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i OtT, the NGTA capships are not very powerful, or don't have very heavy hulls, but they have two thing: range and speed: they cripple the enemy from the distance, and if the enmy can get close, the ships just get away as fast as they can. I think it's a good idea.
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Originally posted by joek:
The GTVA (or mission/model designers) should also look into strategies that are more like David vs. Goliath, rather than Goliath vs. David.
I dunno... it's kinda hard to include Acts of God into mission designs... (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
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America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.
Know how to use Rhino3D? Want to put your ships into Freespace 2? You've come to the right place ("http://www.geocities.com/sandvich/fs2/rhino_fs2/")!
"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://www.geocities.com/sandvich/index.html"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
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Yeah why not let a big strike cannon jump in that fires a massive beam with a width of 9999999999km and a range from ros128 to Altair
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Originally posted by sandwich:
I dunno... it's kinda hard to include Acts of God into mission designs... (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
No... what I mean is sending something small up against something large, and the small one has the maneuverability to knock out the large one's weak point (bombers against Sathanas main beams)... rather than sending something large up against something smaller than itself (another bigger GTVA ship larger than Sathanas to deal with Sathanas).
Joe.
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(http://www.joek.com/cgi-local/fs2rev_image.pl) ("http://www.joek.com/other/freespace/")
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$Fire Wait: 30.0 ;; in seconds
$Damage: 50505
$Armor Factor: 1.0
$Shield Factor: 1.0
$Subsystem Factor: 1.0
$Lifetime: 29.0 0.30 0.0
$Homing: NO
$LaunchSnd: 125 ;; The sound it makes when fired
$ImpactSnd: 88 ;; The sound it makes when it hits something
+Weapon Range: 120000
$Flags: ("Big Ship" "huge" "beam")
$Icon: icongun05
$Anim: LoadGun07
$Impact Explosion: ExpMissileHit1
$Impact Explosion Radius: 40.0
$BeamInfo:
+Type: 0 ;; 0 - 4 are valid #'s
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+Warmdown: 4000 ;; warmdown time in ms
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+WarmdownSound: 188 ;; associated warmdown sound
+Muzzleglow: mesonstar ;; muzzle glow bitmap
+Shots: 0 ;; only used for TYPE 3 beams
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+ShrinkPct: 1.8
$Section:
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+Flicker: 0.70 ;; how much it flickers (0.0 to 1.0)
+Zadd: 0.0
[This message has been edited by vadar_1 (edited 01-04-2002).]
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Originally posted by joek:
No... what I mean is sending something small up against something large, and the small one has the maneuverability to knock out the large one's weak point (bombers against Sathanas main beams)... rather than sending something large up against something smaller than itself (another bigger GTVA ship larger than Sathanas to deal with Sathanas).
Joe.
Yeah, I know that's wht you meant, but hey - if not for an Act of God, David would most likely have been made into a smear on the ground. :-/
(Yes, I believe the Bible, and no, you're not going to convince me otherwise - that's why it's called "faith". (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif))
Religion aside, I agree with your point 100%: The GTVA should look in it's archives for an ancient 20th centuryt computer game from Sol called "Homeworld" - that showed very nicely the balance between fighters, bombers, corvettes, and capital ships. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
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America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.
Know how to use Rhino3D? Want to put your ships into Freespace 2? You've come to the right place ("http://www.geocities.com/sandvich/fs2/rhino_fs2/")!
"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://www.geocities.com/sandvich/index.html"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
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I think Sath are as big as you get. Also i dont think its really a pattern. Its just trying ships to plot events. The GTVA Colossus was designed to fight all Shivans, it wasnt a direct answer to the Lucifer, the Hecate if any ship would be the answer. The Sathanas had only one mission. Clear Capella for other Sathanas's. I dont think they are used primarily for combat.
EDIT:
But [p1mp] My GTD DDI(when its done) can wack a Sathanas in seconds (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif) without firing a single beam due to its Hangers and some 90+ Bomber wings. Think over 200 Ursa's giving the Sathanas their load and you,ve hit the nail on the head. Carriers are the answer, Carriers with Hangers and lots of them.[p1mp]
[This message has been edited by Zeronet (edited 01-04-2002).]
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Originally posted by Zeronet:
I think Sath are as big as you get. Also i dont think its really a pattern. Its just trying ships to plot events. The GTVA Colossus was designed to fight all Shivans, it wasnt a direct answer to the Lucifer, the Hecate if any ship would be the answer. The Sathanas had only one mission. Clear Capella for other Sathanas's. I dont think they are used primarily for combat.
Actually I was just thinking about that. What if the fleet of the Sathani didn't have hostile intent? What if the first Sathanas was a warning for everyone to get out of Capella. They needed to destroy the star anyways to create their portal, but they gave the Terrans a head start. You wouldn't need a Sathanas to clear out capella as in destroying them. The Sathani if they wanted too coulda taken a 5 minnute detour to destroy the GTVA fleet, then destroy the star, but they didn't. I admit that the Shivans destroyed other ships purposly in the past, but it could have been another government.
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Originally posted by Stryke 9:
it can take on and trounce a Hecate fairly easily, but it couldn't deal with a half dozen like the Sathanas could.
I ran this test once. I placed a fully repaired, armed and ready collossus against 3 waves of ships. The first was a warmup, a Ravanna. The second Wave, 2 Orions. The Third Wave 1 Hecate, 1 Orion, 1 Hapshesut, 1 Typhon, and a few corvettes and cruisers, all around the Ship. The Collossus kicked all of their tails and itself was damaged to 18%
One time, I also placed a Collossus behind a Sathanas, and it took about 1 to 1 1/2 minutes for the Collossus to wipe it out.
My opinion, if you matched the designs, placed all 12 beams on the front of the collossus, or placed the 4 beams at equal places, The collossus would rip through a Sathanas like tissue paper.
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Originally posted by WarpStar:
I ran this test once. I placed a fully repaired, armed and ready collossus against 3 waves of ships. The first was a warmup, a Ravanna. The second Wave, 2 Orions. The Third Wave 1 Hecate, 1 Orion, 1 Hapshesut, 1 Typhon, and a few corvettes and cruisers, all around the Ship. The Collossus kicked all of their tails and itself was damaged to 18%
One time, I also placed a Collossus behind a Sathanas, and it took about 1 to 1 1/2 minutes for the Collossus to wipe it out.
My opinion, if you matched the designs, placed all 12 beams on the front of the collossus, or placed the 4 beams at equal places, The collossus would rip through a Sathanas like tissue paper.
Everyone is thinking too tactically and not stragically. Only problem with Terran ships is the reactor output. A sath can fire its 4 Beams again and again.
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Vadar, edit that CODE post of yours up above - it's stretching out the thread to the right. Thanks.
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America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.
Know how to use Rhino3D? Want to put your ships into Freespace 2? You've come to the right place ("http://www.geocities.com/sandvich/fs2/rhino_fs2/")!
"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://www.geocities.com/sandvich/index.html"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
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;; how much it flickers (0.0 to 1.0)
+Zadd: 0.0
[/CODE]
Try adding another pallete and merge them then add a sunburst to it onstead of those spikes would make the muzzleglow look better
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Try adding another pallete and merge them then add a sunburst to it onstead of those spikes would make the muzzleglow look better
Ok i get the sunburst part... but add another pallete and merge them... dont get
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Originally posted by vadar_1:
Ok i get the sunburst part... but add another pallete and merge them... dont get
if you got psp make a new raster layer and play with the opacity and blend mode, then do layers, merge visible and add the sunburst, then it will merge with the pcx instead of that it is placed ontop of it(don't now the right word for it), if you don't like the effect, then redo it and play with the raster layer option again until you like it, you can alo tweak with the light effect, under illumination effects to give it a better glow, just play with it until you like it.