Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Polpolion on January 04, 2007, 02:44:16 pm
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The ancients were killed about 8000 years ago. They were killed by the Shivans. The Shivans also killed everyone on Vasuda Prime. Except Vasuda Prime was rendered not habitable. How were all of the Ancients killed, if there are so many planets still hospitable?
The game itself stated that the Shivans had no interest in planets or anything, just nodes. Except for the capitols, apparently. So I was thinking "okay, the Shivans have wiped out Earth and Vasuda. Now what? They don't care about the other planets. We're safe as long as we stay on a planet!" But that clearly wasn't the case with the ancients.
Either all of the Ancients left their worlds and went into space, or the Shivans landed on the planets and killed everyone. But why wouldn't they do that to every planet they saw right away? And If the Ancients were smart enough to kill off everyone, then why were they stupid enough to let the Shivans kill them?
Discuss.
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The answer to this is pretty much laid out in the Ancients cutscenes in FS1. Basically, the Ancients pursued a policy of rapid expansion and aggression against "lesser" species...until they encountered the Shivans. As the cutscenes narrated, the Shivans were the first species that the Ancients encountered that they could not easily destroy; in fact, they were completely defeated by them in a certain system. The Ancients decided to withdraw from that system and seek conquests elsewhere, but the Shivans pursued them back through the systems they had conquered, presumably attacking their settlements, until at last the Ancients had been chased all the way back to their original home system. Even then, though, the Shivans were not content, and they utterly obliterated the Ancients' home world.
The tone of the "persona" narrating the cutscenes, as well as the text of the final one, suggests that they represent the reflections of a final, scattered group of Ancients who managed to evade destruction up until that point. Since said final cutscene mentions the Ancients' discovery that the Shivans can be tracked through subspace, and that their shields are non-functional there, I think it's safe to assume that that group of Ancients was located on Altair, where Vasudan scientists discovered the subspace tracking data during the Great War. Since they reported that that particular planet seemed to have been attacked by Lucifer-esque beam weapons, I'd assume that the Shivans similarly attacked the rest of the Ancient settlements. Why they didn't seem to follow the same pattern during the Great War, I can't say.
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I remember hearing that the Lucifer also bombarded Deneb during the Great War, but I don't remember from who or when...
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The answer to this is pretty much laid out in the Ancients cutscenes in FS1. Basically, the Ancients pursued a policy of rapid expansion and aggression against "lesser" species...until they encountered the Shivans. As the cutscenes narrated, the Shivans were the first species that the Ancients encountered that they could not easily destroy; in fact, they were completely defeated by them in a certain system. The Ancients decided to withdraw from that system and seek conquests elsewhere, but the Shivans pursued them back through the systems they had conquered, presumably attacking their settlements, until at last the Ancients had been chased all the way back to their original home system. Even then, though, the Shivans were not content, and they utterly obliterated the Ancients' home world.
The tone of the "persona" narrating the cutscenes, as well as the text of the final one, suggests that they represent the reflections of a final, scattered group of Ancients who managed to evade destruction up until that point. Since said final cutscene mentions the Ancients' discovery that the Shivans can be tracked through subspace, and that their shields are non-functional there, I think it's safe to assume that that group of Ancients was located on Altair, where Vasudan scientists discovered the subspace tracking data during the Great War. Since they reported that that particular planet seemed to have been attacked by Lucifer-esque beam weapons, I'd assume that the Shivans similarly attacked the rest of the Ancient settlements. Why they didn't seem to follow the same pattern during the Great War, I can't say.
oh.
I figured that that only meant the military persons.
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The ancients were killed about 8000 years ago. They were killed by the Shivans. The Shivans also killed everyone on Vasuda Prime. Except Vasuda Prime was rendered not habitable. How were all of the Ancients killed, if there are so many planets still hospitable?
The briefing said "MOST of the landmass has been rendered uninhabitable." Not all.
And it didn't say permanetly. One can re-settle there later.
The game itself stated that the Shivans had no interest in planets or anything, just nodes. Except for the capitols, apparently. So I was thinking "okay, the Shivans have wiped out Earth and Vasuda. Now what? They don't care about the other planets. We're safe as long as we stay on a planet!" But that clearly wasn't the case with the ancients.
Either all of the Ancients left their worlds and went into space, or the Shivans landed on the planets and killed everyone. But why wouldn't they do that to every planet they saw right away? And If the Ancients were smart enough to kill off everyone, then why were they stupid enough to let the Shivans kill them?
Killed all the ancients? An advanced space-faring race is nigh impossible to kill.
A lot probably escaped FAR away, never to return.
Alternativly, vasudans could be what's left of the ancients in this galaxy - they could be their descendants or tehy could have had contact with the ancients in their beginings (which would explain the belief in the destroyers)
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Killed all the ancients? An advanced space-faring race is nigh impossible to kill.
A lot probably escaped FAR away, never to return.
Alternativly, vasudans could be what's left of the ancients in this galaxy - they could be their descendants or tehy could have had contact with the ancients in their beginings (which would explain the belief in the destroyers)
Except by another, more advanced space-faring race. It's definitely possible that some escaped, but you have to also consider that they were probably as bound to using jump nodes as terrans and vasudans are. That would make it possible to Shivans to chase the Ancients, unless they managed to flee to a very distant system with just one node connecting it to old Ancient space, and then burned the bridge behind them before Shivans could detect where they went or something like that. So it is possible, I guess.
On the other hand, saying that the Vasudans are what's left of Ancients... Well, you could as well say that Terrans (humans) are what's left of the Ancients.
That would definitely only be possible if Vasudans/Humans were ancients' descendants. The Ancients destroyed every civilization they came across, so having contact to Vasudans or Terrans is not actually viable - unless during the Ancient-Shivan conflict.
Explaining religions by extra-terrestrial races is kinda old, though. It's the Vorlon Ex Machina solution... :p
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Another possible theory is that the Shivans make a straight push to a species homeworld, destroy it, then obliterate the remaining worlds. They might believe that the destruction of the homeworld disorients the other planets' defensive efforts, making them easier to raze.
This pattern was not followed, however, with the Vasudans. One possible explanation is that the Shivans viewed the Terrans and Vasudans as a single empirical entity, meaning that they had two homeworlds to destroy. When they failed to destroy Earth, it threw a monkey wrench in their plans.
The philosophy of destroy the homeworld first could come from the Shivans' own social structure. If they are a hive mind, then it would be logical that, if they were to attack themselves, they would go for the leader (their equivalent of the homeworld) to disorient the lower levels. They could be looking for weaknesses in their enemies by examining their own flaws, hence they go for the homeworld, then eliminate what is left.
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Incest.
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I'm sure there were more then two that would survive. Probably on the order of several thousand to several hundred thousand would remain. If they were so advanced, I'd reckon that if they did infact remain on Altair for their last days, perhaps the city they were in was built around them during that time? The ruins seen actually was a city post-Shivan?
Anyways I believe perhaps a convoy of Ancients made it away from the shivans... perhaps we would meet them in FS3 beyond Altair?
If I was looking for an escape from the Shivans with the current nodemap, I'd definately chance it beyond Altair or Regulus... both are seemingly Shivan-free.
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If I was looking for an escape from the Shivans with the current nodemap, I'd definately chance it beyond Altair or Regulus... both are seemingly Shivan-free.
Derelict or Warzone will change your mind. :)
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Another possible theory is that the Shivans make a straight push to a species homeworld, destroy it, then obliterate the remaining worlds. They might believe that the destruction of the homeworld disorients the other planets' defensive efforts, making them easier to raze.
This pattern was not followed, however, with the Vasudans. One possible explanation is that the Shivans viewed the Terrans and Vasudans as a single empirical entity, meaning that they had two homeworlds to destroy. When they failed to destroy Earth, it threw a monkey wrench in their plans.
The philosophy of destroy the homeworld first could come from the Shivans' own social structure. If they are a hive mind, then it would be logical that, if they were to attack themselves, they would go for the leader (their equivalent of the homeworld) to disorient the lower levels. They could be looking for weaknesses in their enemies by examining their own flaws, hence they go for the homeworld, then eliminate what is left.
Your theory is good but there was no way they could have know that Vasuda Prime was the Vasudan homeworld, instead its possible that they go for the planets wich have the biggest population, taking out them and living smaller colonies to be wiped out later or leaving them to their fate, wich would most likely be death much like the remaining Ancients on Altair.
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there was no way they could have know that Vasuda Prime was the Vasudan homeworld
Yes there way, simply follow the path of greatest resistance. Species fight hardest to protect their homeworld, so the more defenses, the closer you are to the homeworld.
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I'm pretty sure Terrans and Vasudans are the "descendants" of the ancients either directly or indirectly, because they're both bi-pedal races with somewhat similar needs and minds. The similarities between the races has to point to something.
I always like to think the remaining ancients helped the Vasudans in some manner, because they should be extinct otherwise. At least, they should be from what I can gather from the tech room stuff.
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there was no way they could have know that Vasuda Prime was the Vasudan homeworld
Yes there way, simply follow the path of greatest resistance. Species fight hardest to protect their homeworld, so the more defenses, the closer you are to the homeworld.
They also fight just as hard to protect other worlds of great importance like Capella. Greater resistance means you're getting near an important place not necessarily their homeworld.
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Here is an excerpt from the Lucifer FS1 table file:
The Lucifer is the greatest threat to the survival of the GTA, the PVN, and both the Terran and Vasudan species. It wields three massive Flux Cannons which can destroy one of our capital ships in a few hits. These same cannons have been seen bombarding colonized worlds.
Now, we've seen no indication of 3 cannons of this type on the Lucifer, so this can be taken as not being entirely matching the game.
In the FS1 Reference bible (which also doesn't exactly match the game) there was a reference to the Vasudans possibly being an offspring-race of the Ancients, like seeded by them or something.
Personally, I'm going for the "Shivans go for the homeworld(s) first, then mop up the colonies afterwards" even if the table entry is accurate. If we wonder how the Shivans know which system is a species' homeworld, I'd point out that the Shivans have subspace tracking technology which is far superior to that of the Terrans and Vasudans, so they probably use it to track the subspace activity of those species and find out where its most active.
I'm guessing that very few of the Ancients would have survived the Shivan attack. In the final voiceover cutscenes, the narrator indicates that they had the capability to track the Shivans in subspace, and knew how to take them out, but had no means to launch the attack. That suggest that either A- their fighters had no inter-system subspace drives, and they had no cap-ship capable of transporting their fighters to initiate the strike, or B- they had no remaining combat craft whatsoever. I'm not a fan of A-, since we've seen that the Ancients indeed possessed advanced subspace tech even prior to their encounters with the Shivans, in the form of Knossos tech, which means that they likely had inter-system drives on their fighters. So, with no warships left, they'd have no way to cover any civilian ships trying to escape the system. If the Shivans had left their colony planets untouched, they'd likely have left ships behind to take out anything that might have got into space. The only way I could see any substantial Ancients' fleet assets having survived, is if a section of their fleet was cut off as the Shivan advance did a pincher attack to invade systems surrounding the central system, to prevent escape. Rather than coming to their civilization's defense, this Ancients fleet decided to do the BSG thing and make a run for it. In doing so, the fleet managed to get outside the Shivans' detection threshold.
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Woah, major Deja Vu...
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Well, that could be true, they didnt do anything to system like Antares and others that they've taken, just passed right trough them. A really ''go for the throat'' style, huh?
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Maybe the ancients died off because they didn't satisfy the destroyers at the older great barbeque. I mean shivans are just guests you never want to have.
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Except by another, more advanced space-faring race. It's definitely possible that some escaped, but you have to also consider that they were probably as bound to using jump nodes as terrans and vasudans are.
Whether the Ancients were completely committed to using jump nodes when they found the Shivans is debatable but the fact is that we know the Ancients did have access to other interstellar technologies before they discovered subspace. It's possible, probably likely that some of those were FTL. If they still had ships around then maybe they could have escaped in a way the Shivans couldn't follow.
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hi,
i think too, the shivans attack first the primary targets.
strong habitable planets, with a great defence force.
so you can break the backbone of a enemy and then wipe the rest out with not many problems.
but i think to, that not all ancient had killed by the shivans.
yes we know the shivans has a big militäry power, but i think its possible enough that some ancient have make a run to a place thats save.
maybe a subspace island, an area where no subspace portal will lead and the only brigde the ancient cutting off???
Mehrpack
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The problem with that theory, Mehrpack, is that it has been 8,000 years since the Ancient xenocide. If they did blockade themselves into a star system following their war with the Shivans, then by now they would have repopulated and become powerful enough to rejoin galactic civilization. They would still have had all their tech from before and during the Shivan war, which includes the Knossos, so they would be able to break out of their sanctuary.
These surviving Ancients might not even believe in the Shivans. How many 8,000 year-old stories do you believe? So what's holding the Ancients to this new star system?
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Except by another, more advanced space-faring race. It's definitely possible that some escaped, but you have to also consider that they were probably as bound to using jump nodes as terrans and vasudans are.
One thing to think bout it that sapce is big...redicolously big. You could easily hide a small fleet inside a single system.
The ancients, being an advanced space-faring race must have had untold thousands of jump-capable spacecraft, and their empire was big.
The logical step for them, when it was obvious that Shivans are far superior and they are coming from them, is to assmeble several escape fleets and scatter, in the deirections other than from which the shivans came.
the only way hte Shivans could get them all is if they attacked their empire from ALL possible sides at once, thus cutting off ALL jump nodes to everywhere else.
Given how jumping works in FS2, it's practicly impossible to catch someone who started to run a few days before you came, since:
a) In a few days a fast ship cna be on the other side of hte galaxy
b) tracking at those distances is impossible
c) travel-spped in subspace is the same for everyone, so as long as your prey is running you'll NEVER catch up.
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The problem with that theory, Mehrpack, is that it has been 8,000 years since the Ancient xenocide. If they did blockade themselves into a star system following their war with the Shivans, then by now they would have repopulated and become powerful enough to rejoin galactic civilization. They would still have had all their tech from before and during the Shivan war, which includes the Knossos, so they would be able to break out of their sanctuary.
These surviving Ancients might not even believe in the Shivans. How many 8,000 year-old stories do you believe? So what's holding the Ancients to this new star system?
The question is - which ancients survived. I really doubt that theri brightest and greatest scientists, with all the high tech they had made it trough.
whatever acients survived, they were probably average citizens, with only some highly-educated, and carrying nothing but supplies needed to survive. They had theri ship to dismantle, yees, but htat's not that much to start a new civilization with.
Tehy wouldn't loose everything, but they wouldn't have all when they start anew either. It would take a lot of time to rebuild a civilization with oinly several thousand survivors. and the question is - how far have they run? They maby be on the other edge of our galaxy.
Another thing to consider is, that the survivors might refrain from using subspace technology ever again, but that is a bit far fetched...
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The problem with that theory, Mehrpack, is that it has been 8,000 years since the Ancient xenocide. If they did blockade themselves into a star system following their war with the Shivans, then by now they would have repopulated and become powerful enough to rejoin galactic civilization. They would still have had all their tech from before and during the Shivan war, which includes the Knossos, so they would be able to break out of their sanctuary.
These surviving Ancients might not even believe in the Shivans. How many 8,000 year-old stories do you believe? So what's holding the Ancients to this new star system?
hi,
like trashman say, its really possible if they survive they had to beginning form zero, with there new civilistation.
i mean we have lost so many knowledge in the last 100 and 1000 years, and our civilisation wasnt doomed by a high aggressiv alien race.
but yes we find a research a lot of new technology in the last 200 years.
so isnt really easy to say, if they survive, on which level of technologie they are today.
but its possible that they havnt a glow how to build a knossos for example and so cant escape there island.
the other thing that you say with: over 8000 years old legends.
yes, thats thru, but you have to see, that here on earth we didnt have so a massiv incident like that in the story.
so you cant really compare the believed of old legends with the story over an arch enemy that doomed there whole civilisation, maybe with good evidence.
i think after so an event that have more substance in a culture over a really long time.
but yes its really hard to say.
but i believe, if we find ancient then is there a really strong religion over the shivan and the end destruction they are bringing.
mhh and theres another question: the lifetime.
i mean if think about what happend 8000 yeas ago, that for us a long time, because we life only 80 years.
but we didnt know how long can life an ancient if they not killed by force or by a disease.
if they have a livetime of 1000 years, so thats only 8 generations but maybe the life only 20 humans years, so there thousend of generations.
so its really speculative but i think theres many nice possible way to tell it in a mod.
Mehrpack
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the only way hte Shivans could get them all is if they attacked their empire from ALL possible sides at once, thus cutting off ALL jump nodes to everywhere else.
It's quite possible that the Shivans can track which jumpnodes have been used recently. You could very easily track down and eradicate an entire species if you could do that
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If I was running away from the Shivan, I would get away from the main assault and use a SLOWER than light spacecraft i.e. a small sleeper ship to travel into the interstellar void. In that case it could take 8000 years (depending how much slower than light) just to get to my destination. The ancients could still be out there...
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Alternativly, vasudans could be what's left of the ancients in this galaxy - they could be their descendants or tehy could have had contact with the ancients in their beginings (which would explain the belief in the destroyers)
the Anceints definatly had contact with that Vasudans but that was it, i hardly think that the Vasudans were a birth defect of a old enpire. besides that where is the proof to back that claim?
Except by another, more advanced space-faring race. It's definitely possible that some escaped, but you have to also consider that they were probably as bound to using jump nodes as terrans and vasudans are.
That would definitely only be possible if Vasudans/Humans were ancients' descendants.
as for humans being a Ancient, well humans have been around for a very long time like in the order of 250,000 years so that completly contradicts what you said about humans.
This pattern was not followed, however, with the Vasudans. One possible explanation is that the Shivans viewed the Terrans and Vasudans as a single empirical entity, meaning that they had two homeworlds to destroy. When they failed to destroy Earth, it threw a monkey wrench in their plans.
negatory, shivans definatly saw the Vasudans and Terrans as inferior but i never a singular race, reason is simple the shivans were built for Xenocide and battle, there only interest is eradicating the home system because the shivans think that once this is down, it will drop morale to gian the shivans a edge.
Given how jumping works in FS2, it's practicly impossible to catch someone who started to run a few days before you came, since:
a) In a few days a fast ship cna be on the other side of hte galaxy
b) tracking at those distances is impossible
c) travel-spped in subspace is the same for everyone, so as long as your prey is running you'll NEVER catch up.
you would be suprised about the shivans, they dont need to use jump nodes to get to another system, as for subspace tracking, indeed what someone said about advanced space faring culture and some how the shivans were brought up in subspace, its not inpossible it could be well within thier grasp.
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My assumption would be that the Shivan onslaught probably destroyed all but handfuls of Ancients, and what remained was probably insufficient to rebuild their civilization/species.
Think about "The Matrix" and how Zion existed as the last bastion of humanity, holed up deep underground and praying against all odds that they never be found.
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Shivans need jump nodes too.
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I have doubts about the Shivans evolving in Subspace, for a start, if they did that, why did they develop a capship shield that only works outside of Subspace?
I'm most inclined to believe Jeb on this occasion, the chances are that what remained of the Ancients was scattered and too few to propogate the species and they are now extinct.
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hi,
*wild speculation and theory mode on*
the survivers splitting in 3 remaining groups.
first group believed that there time are over and seek a place to die (maybe they make the information over the lucifer).
second group think that the there is over too, but teach the other younger species over the beast in the darkness so that they maybe escape theirs destiny (vasudan).
third group doesnt see so black, keep the rest together and search for a new place to life and try to rebuild there civilisation and kick someday the asses of the shivans.
*mode off*
to the shivans and subspace: yes thats illogical if they build a ship with shield that didnt work in theirs natural environment.
maybe the subspace itsself its like a thin membran between our univers and the universe of the shivan, and jumps have a negativ effect on their universe.
but i dont think that the shivans came form another universe, too.
i think that problem is our own problem.
our universe is old enaugh that the shivan have enough time and place to come to an evil species.
and maybe there are only like bees, they defend theirs honey pot :D.
Mehrpack
Mehrpack
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I'm sure there were more then two that would survive. Probably on the order of several thousand to several hundred thousand would remain. If they were so advanced, I'd reckon that if they did infact remain on Altair for their last days, perhaps the city they were in was built around them during that time? The ruins seen actually was a city post-Shivan?
Anyways I believe perhaps a convoy of Ancients made it away from the shivans... perhaps we would meet them in FS3 beyond Altair?
If I was looking for an escape from the Shivans with the current nodemap, I'd definately chance it beyond Altair or Regulus... both are seemingly Shivan-free.
Uhm...
the only way hte Shivans could get them all is if they attacked their empire from ALL possible sides at once, thus cutting off ALL jump nodes to everywhere else.
It's quite possible that the Shivans can track which jumpnodes have been used recently. You could very easily track down and eradicate an entire species if you could do that
Yup. I talked about something similar in anoter thread.
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the only way hte Shivans could get them all is if they attacked their empire from ALL possible sides at once, thus cutting off ALL jump nodes to everywhere else.
It's quite possible that the Shivans can track which jumpnodes have been used recently. You could very easily track down and eradicate an entire species if you could do that
Hughly unlikely. Tracking a ship while in subspace seems difficult enough.
Especially since any tech that could tell you which node was used recently would have a time limit. What is "recently? A day? A few hours?
the Ancients surely weren't conquered in a day. They had plenty of time to take a lot of ship and scatter in all directions. There's no way the shivans could track them all down.
Think of it as Americans wanting to kill of every North Korean (but there are only several thousands of them). Despite the US tracking tech and firepower, the jungle is a big place, with lots of places to hide...
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Hughly unlikely. Tracking a ship while in subspace seems difficult enough.
And yet the Shivans managed to track the Taranis through subspace to a completely different system from the one it was captured in without even being spotted by the Terrans.
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Shivans possess advanced subspace technologies and gigantic fleet. They can hunt down entire species.
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The Universe is a VERY big place... more places to hide then even the Shivans know about! Think of it... hundreds of thousands of stars in our own galaxy... say one planet in each system at a minimum... that's an equal number of stars to planets! The Ancients were probably prominent in TerraForming that they could, in the cource of years, terraform a planet like Mars to be hospitable like Earth... probably by introducing methane and then replacing the methane with oxygen and carbon dioxide...
Still if there are miners-vessels, and hundreds of thousands of planets, most of which are gas giants! You know that Jupiter needs some 10% more mass to start reactions in its core... effectively making the gas planet a brown dwarf! It's already past self-sufficent...
The ancients probably were able to evacuate on the scale of well over a million refugees; similar to how we evacutated our colony at Capella! We were able to get out millions of Terrans and Vasudans. Say a million to colonize a world... that's several thousand transports with enough supplies to hold them over for a long while; power by the gasminers, cargo by freighters, raw ore-processing in small-scale, and millions of people, of which probably 90% will die from problems... still that's 10% that survive will probably create a great civilization!
I Good point Kara. However, what happens if ten convoys go to different directions? Will the shivans really be able to find and destroy all? I think it is more likely that the Ancients will redevelop like the Vasuans; only diff is the stories of the destroyers will be their history and future. Probably will not venture into space for several thousand years after redeveloping... a bit dangerous with old fears. Eventually they'll leave their planet and begin to rediscover their past and live that for a bit, till they encounter either Terran/Vasudan or Shivan.
I wonder what happened to the other races Ancients would destroy... and if Vasuda was saved or nurtured, would they also help others pass infancy and join galactic civilization?
Oh Mobius i still need your Mission 2...
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Hughly unlikely. Tracking a ship while in subspace seems difficult enough.
And yet the Shivans managed to track the Taranis through subspace to a completely different system from the one it was captured in without even being spotted by the Terrans.
Tracking a ship TROUGH subspace, as it travels (and you know it's starting point) is one thing. Shivans had ships in the system where Thmbough station was located and they had ships in the system in which the Taranis was captured. Thus when the freighter arrived in-system and made the jump to Tombough, the shivans tracked it.
Knowing where a ship went after a dozen jumps trough several star system (and you weren't even there to begin with) is a completely other thing. Any tracking, any tech, has it's limits.
And how would you ever find several ancients scattered on a surface of a remote planet that are activly hiding (avoiding any EM emisions or stuff like that?)
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Good point Kara. However, what happens if ten convoys go to different directions? Will the shivans really be able to find and destroy all?
I'm keeping an open mind on the subject. Notice that I argued earlier that the Ancients did have a non-subspace interstellar tech which the Shivans may not have been able to track (or catch them even if they did know exactly which direction they took).
The Shivans certainly do have the resources to have wiped out the ancients if they had wanted to. The question is whether they wanted to. Maybe wiping them out as any kind of power in the galaxy was enough for them.
Tracking a ship TROUGH subspace, as it travels (and you know it's starting point) is one thing. Shivans had ships in the system where Thmbough station was located and they had ships in the system in which the Taranis was captured. Thus when the freighter arrived in-system and made the jump to Tombough, the shivans tracked it.
Knowing where a ship went after a dozen jumps trough several star system (and you weren't even there to begin with) is a completely other thing. Any tracking, any tech, has it's limits.
And? Who are you to arbitrarily draw the limit at exactly the point which suits your argument? Who says that Subspace isn't all connected like some vast spiders web which can be read several jumps away? The Shivans are masters of subspace tech. I don't consider that sort of thing at all beyond their powers. And if you do consider the fact that something brought them to T/V space in the first place.
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Exactly the point if they havent reappeared...
Anyways from Egyptian lore, I'd say the Ancients were bipedal and at least similar to Terrans and Vasudans. Seems likey that the lore from Egypt would be another explination, though it didn't stick quite as much. It seems to me the Ancients developed from a desert-like planet as well, or most civilizations they encountered would be from a desert. They went to Vasuda and it seems they would look in Egypt as well.
And Kara... I see your point. Subspace seems like a spiderweb... it's easier to go through it. I think that the shivans were more of the interstellar-spiders... making the web that attaches everything. Only a matter of time before they repair the web they create. I think they're more concerned with keeping most of the web intact and preventing superpowers then actually meddling in other species affairs... if there is fighting they will find it and punish both sides. If there is absolute peace, they will simply leave them alone. They seem to view everything as hive-minded; go for the important areas and kill anything that could interfere. Remember that their tendancies point to keeping an edge... who says that the escaping transport didnt get a scan of them? Perhaps that scan and thousands of other scans would make a way to effectively block Shivan weapons and build what will strongly defend against them?
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nonsense, about a superdestroyer with a shield that dont work in subspace, and if you ever read the text on the shivans, they were brought up in subspace zero g, and you see the sathanas that has a moajor weakness, the demon has a major weakness and the bloody ravana has a major weakness. its not all about protection for the shivans, its about all out xenocide, these cretures had a caraprace attached to thier structure and programmed.
as for the anceints, the anceints had absoutly no shields on any of thier ships, thats one of the reasons why the ancients lost out to the shivans. as for the transports, how many jump modes led off from a place like deneb or sirius? 3, and the shivans knew aboutthese routes, dont you think the shivans would of already figured that out by now as they have a advanced tracking and a connection with subspace as well :p.
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Who knows... only :v:
I tend to think of the Shivans as sort of spiders in the way they live in subspace, and subspace is basically a spider-web. Anyways... either enough Ancients escaped and their condition would degrade that they weren't truly the dangerous "Ancients" the shivans wanted dead. I think they'd eventually just let a species survive with the fear; thousands of years set-back and fearful of regaining those years.
Anyways... it seems to me the Shivans are hive-minded, and anything the interferes with Shivans will be attacked until they're far enough away to make sure nothing more will harm them, for thousands of years or more. It seems their point is to stop the ultraviolent, and leave alone the harmless and the defenders. Misinterpretation of other civilizations. I think the Shivans thought that even after Sol was cut off, the Terrans and Vasudans would collapse, and take care of themselves. However, big surprize, the Terrans and Vasudans grew stronger. When they stumbled upon the Shivans again, the shivans were going to send in a Ravana to destroy and disperse the likely-weak T/V's.
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On annihilating space faring species:
Consider: Despite 60 years of peace, and having access to all the colonies and industrial resources of the old Vasudan and Terran Empires save for Terra and Vasuda Prime, the GTVA still can't get enough Argon to build proper Prometheuses. If the gas they were having trouble with was Oxygen instead of Argon, then the Vasudans would likely be extinct without any more then a destroyed homeworld.
The ancients, by comparison, had largely retreated to their homeworld (as per FS1 cutscenes) only to have it annihilated, and unlike the GTA/PVE, they would've had a more powerful empire 'cleaning up' instead of a peaceful period to reconstruct.
Space Empires typically aren't constructed to go nomadic. They need ground installations and space installations to keep the supply trains coming. In an era of subspace, could we even really depend on colonization vessels to carry everything that was needed to create a completely self sufficient society on a new planet? Capable of producing food, metals, medical supplies, life support - not to mention sufficient colonists to make it even slightly plausible - while at the same time being able to avoid the raging shivans long enough to find a reasonably hospitable planet to settle on?
Trying to establish a survivable society is hard enough with most of your colonies intact and your enemies gone. With your homeworld gone, your colonies being wiped out, and your entire race being hunted by a genocidal xenophobic race who just happen to be the unchallenged masters of subspace?
"There are few of us left. We know we will soon be gone."
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Few is relative...
In our society of 6 billion people currently, "few" survivors would mean death rates above 51% or so... it's a fraction of the previous, and thus "few". I think the ancients might have suffered 90%-95% death... thus 1/10 to 1/20 of the original civilization are left... if that civilization was 100 billion strong, that would be anywhere from 10 billion to 5 billion... few for a massive civilization, though many for a smaller civilization. If the Ancients ruled un-contended for as long as I think they did, they have well over 20 billion people... 1-2 billion survivors, perhaps?
Anyways about the retreat thing...
The ancients, by comparison, had largely retreated to their homeworld
Largely follows the same thing as before...
I think Sol/Delta Serpentis node's destruction cut off about a third of the Human Race from the rest of the universe... it's a huge hit, losing contact with billions of people, though it's not the end as the GTVA demonstrated.
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Few is not the important part. "We know we will soon be gone is."
You've got a universe with no ancients to be found, everyone calling them extinct, including themselves.
Do you have any canonical basis for suggesting they might still exists?
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Who knows... only :v:
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What's with all of this shivans came from subspace ****? It's really getting dumb by about now. If shivans were from subspace why make shields that don't work in subspace? It's illogical. Just because shivans have a mastery of subspace, doesn't mean they are from it. Look at the rest of their ships, all designed to work in space with similarities to ship classes and sizes from other alien cultures, and even similar armaments.
Shivans have had the opportunity of existing for a really long time, that means they've evolved for a really long time. Shivans are from space no doubt, they just have a mastery of it. As for shivans not needing jump nodes and the fact that they still use them. Could be that jump nodes are easy and convenient to use. You go in one end, it's like a wormhole, you end up out the other end. Without jumpnodes, you need navicomputers to plot points where you're going to go in the galaxy. And then that's where you get bsg ftl types of risks where people jump from space inside of planets and inside of stars...etc. Not to mention a navicomputer would be a pretty advanced piece of technology, not to mention the tech to use subspace without nodes when going system to system. After that for shivans to be able to make the calculations they've made without jumping into a planet or something is a lot easier if you're making the jump calculations to somewhere you've been before. The shivans have been to some of terran/vasudan space before...8000 years ago. Either the shivans used a node to get to tv space before they got to ross128, or the shivans did a nodeless jump. Anyway, in all of fs we always catch the shivans using nodes. Y not use nodes? They're convenient, and they're everywhere, chances are they network in such a way that you can go where you want. Y make calculations when you know you can survive a blockade and get to a node.
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The shield point, rather obviously, is worthless. Consider: "If Terrans are from truespace, why make FTL drives that don't work in truespace?" The answer is simply that they can't. It's a simple mistake to wonder why the shivans didn't do something when you can't be certain such a thing is even possible.
Given that Terran and Vasudan ships function perfectly well in subspace - nearly identically, save for shields, in fact - it seems rather obvious that effective design in subspace and effective design in realspace are extremely similar. In fact, we don't see a single ship that performs any differently in subspace then it does in realspace. A fast realspace interceptor is a fast subspace interceptor, and a zero point energy cannon that blows you up in realspace blows you up just as well in subspace. Given that, a subspace born race would certainly make ships that function similarly in armament and design - the principles of effective weapons and mobility hold as true in subspace and realspace.
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Did I say the Ancients were all dead? I did not.
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The shield point, rather obviously, is worthless. Consider: "If Terrans are from truespace, why make FTL drives that don't work in truespace?" The answer is simply that they can't. It's a simple mistake to wonder why the shivans didn't do something when you can't be certain such a thing is even possible.
Given that Terran and Vasudan ships function perfectly well in subspace - nearly identically, save for shields, in fact - it seems rather obvious that effective design in subspace and effective design in realspace are extremely similar. In fact, we don't see a single ship that performs any differently in subspace then it does in realspace. A fast realspace interceptor is a fast subspace interceptor, and a zero point energy cannon that blows you up in realspace blows you up just as well in subspace. Given that, a subspace born race would certainly make ships that function similarly in armament and design - the principles of effective weapons and mobility hold as true in subspace and realspace.
and in english that means?...
s-99 stop flaming and listen to other peoples side of the story.
in subspace shields dont work, because certain energies cant be found in subspace, the shivans knew full well about this and they knew it was a overreaction on thier part to send one ship to earth, shields have abosoutly no connection with a race that was bent on wiping every race off the galaxy :p.
and i never said anything about the ancients were all dead :).
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From what I get from the game... the Shivans haven't needed to develop constantly. They have no need to build thousands of new weapons, each better then the previous. It's likely that one of the races they drove to extinction developed shields for them, and taught the Shivans a lesson they wouldn't forget... perhaps taking out several Lucifer or Sathanas with relative immunity from the weapons. I think that that could have been as little as a hundred years previous to the T/V War... only some of their ships are shielded, and all their fighters and bombers are. I think the Shivans develop at a much slower rate then others... they have the advantage of advanced Subspace tech, numbers, and seemingly endless resources. How much material could it take to build upward of eighty Sathanas? Those ships are gigantic...
Anyways it said the Ancients, with all their advanced tech, couldn't beat the sheer number of the Shivans. Perhaps they destroyed the first of the ships the Shivans sent... after that they would lose the front lines to more destroyers. The front lines broken, they start to reinforce systems that lead to their home... as more shivans come, the war becomes more costly with the loss of ships to swarm-tactics. No need to do so much as cut off supply lines... simply make sure there is no delivery-point. So many Shivans die though the continued push weakens Ancients.
Anyways... why doesn't Command ever sortie 8 squadrons at once against an enemy Destroyer? Much more chance then a squadron of Bombers and a Corvette... in the end it would probably be worthwhile. 1 squadron is 12 ships. 96 ships would be, including bombers and extra people onboard each, some 170 people... one destroyer is known to hold more then 2000 people, most military. Sortie large numbers of fighters and bombers... disable, disarm, and then destroyer in a short time... as little as 30 minutes?
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Few is not the important part. "We know we will soon be gone is."
You've got a universe with no ancients to be found, everyone calling them extinct, including themselves.
Do you have any canonical basis for suggesting they might still exists?
hi,
we speculation and if the race great enought is possible that some one survive.
and if you has see how many of your people are killed by a space and only 10.000 or 100.000 survived the onslaught, that you really depressive and dont think positiv.
i didnt think if you where in so a situation you dont write that:" yeah the shivans came, kick our asses, 99% of our civilisation is death, but we will kill them all, someday.
now we travel a little bit in the universe to find a save place.
we dont bother about the shivan thread and that they us hunt, they have no skill, only instikt and we are the rulers, we will survive, peace brother.
ah and if any body find that message and have problems with the shivans, shields dont work in subspace, life long and prosper brother, see you some day."
ok maybe to many drugs but i didnt think in so an situation you will really find a message with great hope.
yeah maybe there all death and only there hulks left in space, like the knossos.
but maybe some survived and lure anywhere out in space.
i think the last eventuality bring more intresting opportunities, as only hulks.
Mehrpack
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Anyways... why doesn't Command ever sortie 8 squadrons at once against an enemy Destroyer? Much more chance then a squadron of Bombers and a Corvette... in the end it would probably be worthwhile. 1 squadron is 12 ships. 96 ships would be, including bombers and extra people onboard each, some 170 people... one destroyer is known to hold more then 2000 people, most military. Sortie large numbers of fighters and bombers... disable, disarm, and then destroyer in a short time... as little as 30 minutes?
bad idea, one destroyer 96 fighters, like lambs to the slaughter. if it was me i would send a suicide squadron in take out atleast 4 beams and 4 flak turrets on one side to give the squardrons a fighting chance, but then again something like 80+ sj's then your talking something like, well over 2000 shivan fighters compared to 96, so not even that would work but, if you put it like that, then that is bad.
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Anyways it said the Ancients, with all their advanced tech, couldn't beat the sheer number of the Shivans. Perhaps they destroyed the first of the ships the Shivans sent... after that they would lose the front lines to more destroyers. The front lines broken, they start to reinforce systems that lead to their home... as more shivans come, the war becomes more costly with the loss of ships to swarm-tactics. No need to do so much as cut off supply lines... simply make sure there is no delivery-point. So many Shivans die though the continued push weakens Ancients.
From the Ancient's message, it's obvious they encountered the Lucifer or some other shielded ship that they couldn't destroy. Imagine the Great War but without an ancient long lost message that details how to beat the Lucifer. That's about what the Ancients suffered.
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And? Who are you to arbitrarily draw the limit at exactly the point which suits your argument? Who says that Subspace isn't all connected like some vast spiders web which can be read several jumps away? The Shivans are masters of subspace tech. I don't consider that sort of thing at all beyond their powers. And if you do consider the fact that something brought them to T/V space in the first place.
That might be true, but ther's still the issue of killing them all. The shivans would have to COMPLETEY glass EVERY planet in EVERY system where tehy detected ancient activity of any kind to kill them all.
If just a handfull survives in a cave on some remote planet then they didn't kill them all. Even if the shivan knew in which system they fled, knowing exactly where they are in-system is a whole different thing. As far as I know, scanners that can detect a single human on a planet don't exist in the FS universe...
Look at the US - tehy can't find Osama even though they have a massive force searching for him and all that high-tech equipment, and know the general area where he is located.
In a big place, when someone with any brains is activly hiding, you won't find htem.
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nonsense, about a superdestroyer with a shield that dont work in subspace, and if you ever read the text on the shivans, they were brought up in subspace zero g, and you see the sathanas that has a moajor weakness, the demon has a major weakness and the bloody ravana has a major weakness. its not all about protection for the shivans, its about all out xenocide, these cretures had a caraprace attached to thier structure and programmed.
Nope, so mention of being brought up in subspace at all:
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Physically, the Shivans have multiple, compound eyes and five legs with claw-like manipulators. Their insect-like carapace does not appear original to the creature's physiognomy, suggesting the Shivans are a cybernetic fusion of biology and technology. The integrated plasma weapon also exhibits properties of an organic-artificial fusion. The weapon may be a kind of focusing device powered by the energy of the being itself, though this point is the subject of heated controversy.
These details are cited as evidence that the Shivans could not have evolved as the Terran or Vasudan species had, but that they were likely constructed by another entity. Only a handful of Shivans have ever been captured, and all research on live specimens ended with the GTI's Hades rebellion in 2335. The results of these studies remain highly classified.
Though the Shivans are obviously xenocidal, their motives and origins have yet to be determined. According to Ancient artifacts, the Shivans seem to possess some kind of sensitivity to subspace disturbances. We do not know if the Shivans returned to this corner of the galaxy by chance, by cycle or pattern, or by their detection of Terran-Vasudan subspace travel.
Xenobiologists know very little about Shivan society. A leading hypothesis is the hive mind theory, arguing that Shivan society is broken down in specialized functions driven by a collective intelligence. The most convincing evidence supporting this theory is the behavior of Shivan forces following the destruction of the Lucifer, the turning point of the Great War. Other experts caution against attributing insectoid properties to the Shivans, regardless of their appearance and behavior. Shivan communication seems to occur in the electromagnetic spectrum, though efforts to decode their transmissions have yielded no meaningful results to date.
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Look at the US - tehy can't find Osama even though they have a massive force searching for him and all that high-tech equipment, and know the general area where he is located.
umm trying to compare 21st century equipment with 23rd century equipment dont even work.
1. not such thing yet for the latter
2. for the former we are not advanced yet. so you dont really know.
i definatly read up somewhere on shivan they were brought up in subspace and have a connection.
The Shivans (named after the Hindu god of destruction and regeneration Shiva) are an ancient, destructive race that has exterminated countless spacefaring races and recently fought two destructive wars against the Terrans and Vasudans. It has been confirmed that Shivans are in fact xenocidal. Shivans have a black exoskeleton, five legs, compound eyes, and are apparently some form of cybernetic organism, with both organic and inorganic components including an integrated plasma weapon. They are physically extremely strong and well adapted to a microgravity environment, possibly having evolved in it. The typical Shivan specimen is roughly 4m to 5m long and its height varies between 2.5 and 3.5m depending on its posture. It is theorised that the integral plasma cannon, inorganic materials, and cybernetic components can be explained by the use of an artificial exoskeleton of sorts (Descent: FreeSpace, Disc 2, the video featuring the boarding team).
Only a handful of Shivans have ever been captured, and all research on live specimens ended with the rebellion of the intelligence branch of the GTA at the close of the Great War. The results of these studies remain highly classified.
In Descent:Freespace the narrator (an Ancient) speculates that the Shivans are closely tied with subspace; they apparently are native to subspace, and take notice of any species that travels through it, acting to exterminate them. At the end of Descent: FreeSpace, it is theorized that the Shivans are the Galaxy's immune system. They appear and exterminate any species that develops subspace technology. By doing so, they prevent any one species from spreading across the entire galaxy and dominating all other races. It is theorized that humans would never have developed if not for the Shivans, because the Ancients would have been allowed to spread and eventually conquer Earth. Likewise, the Ancients would not have been able to develop, as they would have been conquered by the races that came before them.
now as for the3 ancients this is what i could get.
The Ancients species that conquered a large portion of the immediate region of the known galaxy, including parts of current Terran and Vasudan space, and beyond who were exterminated just under 8000 years ago. Thanks to their advanced technology, no enemy was ever able to withstand their might, until they encountered the Shivans. All of the Ancient's weapons and technology proved futile against the Shivan's seemingly invincible shield technology, and they were eventually exterminated after a prolonged war. The Ancients eventually discovered a weakness in Shivan shield technology — their inoperation while in subspace — and developed a means by which vessels could be tracked through subspace. This was too late, however, to save the Ancients from the Shivan incursion. During the course of the single-player campaign of the first game, the records of the Ancients are recovered by Vasudan archaeologists and used by Galactic Terran Alliance to defeat the Lucifer and win the Great War. It is speculated that the Terrans and Vasudans themselves would not have survived if the Ancients had been allowed to propagate and expand at will, and thus, in a strange reversal, making the Shivans the saviors of then still planet-bound humanity.
that puts to an end a birth defect[Terrans & Vasudans] from the anceints.
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Um..it does work.
Regardless of the tech level, trying to find someone who is hiding is ALLWAYS difficult.
As the search tech advances so does the hiding tech. And it's allways easier to hide than to look.
And if all else fails you can allways go low-tech. Live off the land in some cave in the jungle. No way anyone is going to find you, and as I said, last time I checked super TRek-like scanners don't exist in FS universe..
And where did you get that quotes from if I may ask?
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Um..it does work.
Regardless of the tech level, trying to find someone who is hiding is ALLWAYS difficult.
As the search tech advances so does the hiding tech. And it's allways easier to hide than to look.
And if all else fails you can allways go low-tech. Live off the land in some cave in the jungle. No way anyone is going to find you, and as I said, last time I checked super TRek-like scanners don't exist in FS universe..
And where did you get that quotes from if I may ask?
Perhaps, but either way the Ancients are gone.
From the FS Reference Bible
The Ancients Monologue tells a story parallel to the FreeSpace story. It is the story of a race that was annihilated by the Shivans at an unspecified point in the very distant past.
Their race (not civilization, not empire, race) was annihilated. End of discussion.
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I'd like to ask something about a "race"... the socalled "Human Race" has races inside of it... mainly from descent... a large number of races exist in the Human "Race", who says that they were refering to all those that are Human or all those from a select race inside of Human were annilated? They'd seed their colonies and I doubt the Shivans would uproot all the colonies... thousands of different conquered and colonized planets and systems...
Remember that the GTVA didn't even know where Bosch was! He was right under our nose on an asteroid-installation... say the Shivans are ten times as good... it was what? 10km scanner range at max, with the outer half being scrambled? Still, trying to search a system with a scanner range of 100km would be near-impossible! Simply too much space! The Installation was huge... though shielded from emissions to some extent... still it's signature would be about equal or more then a Cruiser! I guess confirmed and unconfirmed does change a bit... they know a cruiser is there versus they don't know an installation is there.
The Ancients stumbled on other galaxies, intentionally or accidentally, they started to expand further. No matter the resources... we didn't know about the Sathanas until we stumbled upon one making for the Node in a Nebular Mist.
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I'd like to ask something about a "race"... the socalled "Human Race" has races inside of it... mainly from descent... a large number of races exist in the Human "Race", who says that they were refering to all those that are Human or all those from a select race inside of Human were annilated?
Erm... no.
There is only one so called "Human Race", homo sapiens. Deal with it.
Remember that the GTVA didn't even know where Bosch was! He was right under our nose on an asteroid-installation... say the Shivans are ten times as good... it was what? 10km scanner range at max, with the outer half being scrambled? Still, trying to search a system with a scanner range of 100km would be near-impossible! Simply too much space! The Installation was huge... though shielded from emissions to some extent... still it's signature would be about equal or more then a Cruiser! I guess confirmed and unconfirmed does change a bit... they know a cruiser is there versus they don't know an installation is there.
Although I can't really prove this, I'm pretty sure the GTVA knew where Bosch was, even if it was through intelligence.
And until told otherwise, I think it's safe to assume the shivans are near omniscient when it comes to space travel.
The Ancients stumbled on other galaxies, intentionally or accidentally, they started to expand further. No matter the resources... we didn't know about the Sathanas until we stumbled upon one making for the Node in a Nebular Mist.
The Shivans tracked several ships through space/subspace, they may have detected something during the T/V war, they may have the capabilities to induce supernovas! What can't they do?! Also, funny you say that we didn't know about shivan ships in the nebula, because the shivans seemed to have no dificulty in finding GTVA ones!
Either way the Ancients are gone. From "We will soon be gone" to "the shivans may have been the cause for the destruction of the Ancients" all points to it. The Shivans have killed directly or indirectly every Ancient in existance.
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so called human race is actually called 'Homo sapiens' and the vasudan race are called 'Vāsudeva'.
so called Shivan race is called 'Mahadeva' and the ancients is 'anciens'.
anyway, the reason why bosh couldnt be detected probably because he was a part of the GTA just before the GTVA and BETAC came to force, i think he knows full well of ship and fighter scanner capability, if you think a bit it isnt hard to go around gathering data inconspicuously as an adimral of any sorts.
command knew full well of what the adimral knows and thinks, reason why the NTF was defeated in the first place after 18 months.
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I still say they couldn't have gotten them all..
Teh ancient monologues are jsut that - a monologue of some ancinet chick talking to herself. One of the last ones accoring to her. But she is from the group that retreated to Altair, so knowing for certain that no one else escaped or hid is not possible for her, especially given the size of their empire.
However, I think she refers to the "end of their civilization". Wether or not some ancients surive, their civilization is effectivly destryed - all of their cities, factories, all of their achivements - gone. A handfull of survivors on some remote planet could never rebuilt it, not to what it once was....
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We don't know if that Ancient was a female. The voice isn't enough.
The Ancients might have developed stealth technologies, they fought many other civilizations. Just make some space stations invisible to the radar...the Shivans don't remain in a system without a good reason. They thought the Ancients were gone but many Ancients survived and continued to develop technologies. They might have destroyed all the nodes taking to the system they lived in, surviving with what they could find.
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I still say they couldn't have gotten them all..
Teh ancient monologues are jsut that - a monologue of some ancinet chick talking to herself. One of the last ones accoring to her. But she is from the group that retreated to Altair, so knowing for certain that no one else escaped or hid is not possible for her, especially given the size of their empire.
However, I think she refers to the "end of their civilization". Wether or not some ancients surive, their civilization is effectivly destryed - all of their cities, factories, all of their achivements - gone. A handfull of survivors on some remote planet could never rebuilt it, not to what it once was....
And pray I tell what is the Reference Bible? A bunch of text that randomly formed the phrases "The Ancients Monologue tells a story parallel to the FreeSpace story. It is the story of a race that was annihilated by the Shivans at an unspecified point in the very distant past."? V specifically says they were annihilated. Race, not empire, not their civilization.
Unless you mean V is lying to us, from the very beginning of FS to the end of FS2 and with out of the game references. I hope you know how unlikely that is.
We don't know if that Ancient was a female. The voice isn't enough.
The Ancients might have developed stealth technologies, they fought many other civilizations. Just make some space stations invisible to the radar...the Shivans don't remain in a system without a good reason. They thought the Ancients were gone but many Ancients survived and continued to develop technologies. They might have destroyed all the nodes taking to the system they lived in, surviving with what they could find.
Don't make me type repeatedly "race that was annihilated by the shivans".
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i dont like your tone ghostavo, what side of the bed did you wake up on? :P
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The left side.
I apologise if I came on a bit agressive but it's a bit annoying people will deviate from what is repeatedly said in the game and in the reference bible and say "but they may have been able to do <insert random stuff> to avoid the shivans and still be alive!!!".
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i dont like your tone ghostavo, what side of the bed did you wake up on? :P
Snail has a rival now.
The left side.
:eek:
I apologise if I came on a bit agressive but it's a bit annoying people will deviate from what is repeatedly said in the game and in the reference bible and say "but they may have been able to do <insert random stuff> to avoid the shivans and still be alive!!!".
Mah. The Ancients are supposed not to be completely destroyed. V planned something about them for FS3 or not?
Don't make me type repeatedly "race that was annihilated by the shivans".
That's what the GTVA thinks.
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i dont like your tone ghostavo, what side of the bed did you wake up on? :P
Snail has a rival now.
The left side.
:eek:
I apologise if I came on a bit agressive but it's a bit annoying people will deviate from what is repeatedly said in the game and in the reference bible and say "but they may have been able to do <insert random stuff> to avoid the shivans and still be alive!!!".
Mah. The Ancients are supposed not to be completely destroyed. V planned something about them for FS3 or not?
Don't make me type repeatedly "race that was annihilated by the shivans".
That's what the GTVA thinks.
You do know that that "race that was annihilated by the shivans" bit is from the Reference Bible which is what V thinks, right? It's the plot!
Also regarding what the had planned for FS3 with the Ancients, if they had, it would probably be in the same lines as FS2. Do we see Ancients in FS2? No, we see relics.
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I know that but pre-Capella GTVA has poor infos regarding the Ancients. Note that many things were discovered by the NTF first, which means that not all the artifacts have been found. Also, many informations are highly classified.
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I know that but pre-Capella GTVA has poor infos regarding the Ancients. Note that many things were discovered by the NTF first, which means that not all the artifacts have been found. Also, many informations are highly classified.
What does V have to do with an entity within their created universe? It's V wrote the Reference Bible, not the GTVA. :p
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Think what do you want. I'm not here to impose my opinion.
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quite true it sais a race that was anihalated by the shivans i have no arguement here nut from what perspective is it said? Form the perspective of a shivan,vasudan,terran,or ancient?? The fact of the matter is that the ancients as far as i can remember from some texts expande in the entire galaxi and there are references that they expanded beyond. Now you can argue all you want but a race that has expanded and entire galaxi can not be exterminated. Sure if you have several hundred of billions inhabiting a galaxi and by the end of the war there are only thousands or millions left then you could say that the respective race was obliterated or exterminated.
The fact is that the ancients are considered exterminated simply because there are no evidence of them beeing around in this corner of the galaxi for a very very long time but some a hand full of them could of easyly escaped or survided. Even if the shivans wanted to exterminate every last living ancient it would of been an imposible task even for them. I mean it would of taken them tens of thousand of years. rememebr you have bilions of stars in just one galaxy. While i dont argue that a very long and savage war must of raged on in order to make them extinct at least to terrans and vasudans total extermination would prove imposible.
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quite true it sais a race that was anihalated by the shivans i have no arguement here nut from what perspective is it said? Form the perspective of a shivan,vasudan,terran,or ancient?? The fact of the matter is that the ancients as far as i can remember from some texts expande in the entire galaxi and there are references that they expanded beyond. Now you can argue all you want but a race that has expanded and entire galaxi can not be exterminated. Sure if you have several hundred of billions inhabiting a galaxi and by the end of the war there are only thousands or millions left then you could say that the respective race was obliterated or exterminated.
The fact is that the ancients are considered exterminated simply because there are no evidence of them beeing around in this corner of the galaxi for a very very long time but some a hand full of them could of easyly escaped or survided. Even if the shivans wanted to exterminate every last living ancient it would of been an imposible task even for them. I mean it would of taken them tens of thousand of years. rememebr you have bilions of stars in just one galaxy. While i dont argue that a very long and savage war must of raged on in order to make them extinct at least to terrans and vasudans total extermination would prove imposible.
For the last time, it's from V's perspective! It's the bloody reference bible!
Also, if a race survives, you can't say that race was annihilated.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/annihilation
the state of being annihilated; extinction; destruction
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Perhaps to be an ass about it, but killing the Ancients as a race might not necessarily kill their civilization.
Considering the extents of their conquests the possiblity of an assimilated or slave race surviving can't be overlooked. (I think that was vaguely implied about the Vasudans?)
I also have my suspicions that annihilating the Shivans as a race might not kill them, but those are rather more sinister.
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The shield point, rather obviously, is worthless. Consider: "If Terrans are from truespace, why make FTL drives that don't work in truespace?" The answer is simply that they can't. It's a simple mistake to wonder why the shivans didn't do something when you can't be certain such a thing is even possible.
Given that Terran and Vasudan ships function perfectly well in subspace - nearly identically, save for shields, in fact - it seems rather obvious that effective design in subspace and effective design in realspace are extremely similar. In fact, we don't see a single ship that performs any differently in subspace then it does in realspace. A fast realspace interceptor is a fast subspace interceptor, and a zero point energy cannon that blows you up in realspace blows you up just as well in subspace. Given that, a subspace born race would certainly make ships that function similarly in armament and design - the principles of effective weapons and mobility hold as true in subspace and realspace.
and in english that means?...
More simply:
A: It's pointless to use "The shivans didn't build a shield that works in subspace" as an arguement against shivans being from subspace unless you know for sure that it's even possible to do so.
B: Given that we see in the end of FS1 that ships perform in subspace exactly how they do outside of it, one can pretty much conclude that a good performing ship in subspace and a good performing ship outside of it are essentially the same thing. As such, we would reasonably expect similarities between a subspace race's ship designs and a realspace race's ship designs.
Both were counterpoints to a post above.
At any rate, it's not be suprise to me that the shivan's were able to annihilate the ancients. Like I said, 60 years of peace and rebuilding with all their non-homeworld colonies available, and the GTVA still can't get enough argon to properly build Prometheus cannons. Make that no years of peace and lots of being actively hunted by a superior race - well, those shortages become less inconvienient, and more fatal.
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Well, the shields in subspace could mean many things, most races are best adapted to fighting in their own particular 'niche', so if the Shivans were evolved from Subspace, they would have developed other defensive technologies etc, I find it hard to accept that the Shivans 'Achilles heel' would be the environment they evolved in. It's like saying a human fighting in a diving suit is better off than a human fighting on dry land. There may be certain advantages to being underwater, but, compared to the creatures that evolved there, Divers are clumsy, slow and, for want of a better word, 'noobish'. There's never been any mention of planets, stars or anything else in subspace upon which the Shivans could evolve, and if they evolved in the subspace 'ether' then it only strengthens the former argument.
I can accept that Shivans are very sensitive to Subspace, I can even accept that they patrol, or even spend a great deal of time in subspace, I just struggle with the whole 'evolved' thing.
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I'm not arguing that it necessarily happened that way, merely that the arguments stated were very poorly constructed.
As for the former, I might suggest two counter would be along these lines: Humans existed on land, and and less agile underwater then on land. However, if they were to spend a few millenniums fighting a race of intelligent sharks underwater, with very little combat on land, might it not be reasonable to expect our fighting machinery to be developed primarily for fighting underwater?
The second counter would also be along those lines: Human may be more agile on land then underwater, but submarines most definitely are not. Our land based nature doesn't carry over into our designs made for alternative environments. The Lucifer is certainly used by the shivans exclusively for real space combat - they never initiate an attack in subspace, in all of FSdom - so if they were Subspace born, the Lucifer and the ships we see may be their equivalent of submarines.
Given the rather unpleasant side effects of any combat we see take place in subspace, it would certainly make sense for a race from there to not want to fight there, just as people from New York would rather any wars they take part in occur somewhere other then New York. Since the Shivans are also obviously very aggressive, wouldn't it make sense for their ships to be designed for the purpose we see them used for - offensive fighting against real space races in real space?
Now mind you, I'm not sold on the idea of them being from subspace myself, but that's primarily because I don't see all that much evidence that seriously supports it.
Ah right: One other thing, the "American can't even find Osama in a cave" analogy. Technology considerations aside, it's important two remember two fundamental differences between the two situations. 1, Osama, even in an uncomfortable cave, has a few basic neccessities reliably provided. He may not have Coke, but he does have air - something which the ancients couldn't be so assured of. 2, More importantly, Osama still has supply lines. He's not setting up a self sufficient society in that cave, just hiding out and sending people to get supplies when and where he can from the rest of society. Society as a whole still exists, and while he may be exiled, there are still ways of getting food, medicine, weapons, whatever from society as a whole. It isn't neccessairly easy to tell the AQ agent buying food to take back to the cave from the rest of the customers at the local food market. The ancients, by comparison, have no market to sneak into. It's been blown to hell.
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For the last time, it's from V's perspective! It's the bloody reference bible!
Also, if a race survives, you can't say that race was annihilated.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/annihilation
the state of being annihilated; extinction; destruction
You're staring to sound like one of those Jehovas witnesses... waiving a book and a shouting a single line of text over and over.
First of all, maby [V] didn't ckeck the dictionary. God knows they are many textual errors in the documnets, even references to non-existing weapons and stuff. There's no way you can be sure that whoever wrote the reference bible didn't make a mistake OR simply used a wrong word. You see that even we can now debate what one means with the phrase "anihilated civilisation" or "anihilated race"..
It's simply far too unlikely for a huge galactic empire to be completely and utterly destroyed to the last man and woman.
So just relax and take it easy, K..
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I've always thought the Vasudans were ancients.
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For the last time, it's from V's perspective! It's the bloody reference bible!
Also, if a race survives, you can't say that race was annihilated.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/annihilation
the state of being annihilated; extinction; destruction
You're staring to sound like one of those Jehovas witnesses... waiving a book and a shouting a single line of text over and over.
First of all, maby [V] didn't ckeck the dictionary. God knows they are many textual errors in the documnets, even references to non-existing weapons and stuff. There's no way you can be sure that whoever wrote the reference bible didn't make a mistake OR simply used a wrong word. You see that even we can now debate what one means with the phrase "anihilated civilisation" or "anihilated race"..
It's simply far too unlikely for a huge galactic empire to be completely and utterly destroyed to the last man and woman.
So just relax and take it easy, K..
Very well, then give me a shred of evidence that points to the Ancients survival. Something that says "the Ancients are out there waiting" or "one day we will come back" something like that.
All you have is "they had this huge galactic empire, they couldn't be possibly have been totally destroyed!" when you don't even know the extent of their empire. It could have been only a bit beyond what the GTVA is or spawning 3 billion galaxies, we don't know. Also regarding what may or may not be possible, you have to acknowledge that this as a game won't follow some cases of logic. It may not be possible in reality, but this is a game. WHAT we know is that the reference bible, which unlike jehova's witness I can prove it's creator and intent, says they were annihilated (even by your odd definition of annihilated).
On another note, what would be a stronger case for the Shivans as destroyers, that they destroyed a civilization until all that was left was some worlds filled with Ancients, or that they completly and utterly destroyed (or according to the dictionary, annihilated) an entire race?
EDIT:
Funnily enough, we can also say that the Ancients destroyed some species.
And we saw other advanced life. And we subdued it or we crushed it.
In months, the elimination of billions of years of evolution. On a similar but slower path.
If the Ancients can do it, I don't see much of a difference to the Shivans doing it on a larger scale.
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Actualy i believe that it is said in one of the ancient monologues that they expanded in the galaxi and beyond..but i'm not exactly sure if that is the corect source.
Also TMan:"You're staring to sound like one of those Jehovas witnesses... waiving a book and a shouting a single line of text over and over." I find this rather insulting and quite far from the truth I dont know any of them (at least from the ones i know) that do that. Each arguement in this respective case is backed up by 3 or 4 different texts in diferent books of the Bible.
Also Gustavo you brought up the arguement that the Ancients destroyed civilizations on they own and races but I ask you how many of them were as advanced as the Ancients? How many were as large as the Ancients? In one of the ancient monologues there is reference to these races as beeing inferior and something else cant remember exactly what they called them besides that.
As for thearguemnt of shivans beeing from subspace and presenting the Lucifer as some sort of evidence for that reson is absolute nonesence! The only reason why shivans dont fight in subspace in mi opinion at least is because they know very well what the consequences of ships exploding there are. You would have to be absolutely retarted to wage battle in subspace and risk colapsing nodes. The GTVA learned this the shivans already knew it. Also if the shivans were from subspace then you would expect they ships to be vastly superior in combat to the enemy ones.
Saing that they developed the ships to fight in realspace and exclusevly for that pourpose is nonesence what kind of idiot would leave such a huge opening in its armour? It's like gooing to war in a tank that is stripped of all the armour from the turret leaving only the gun the chasie and the crew.
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AlphaOne, the problem is that all we have on the Ancients expansion is
Ours was a proud people.
And always the strongest.
For thousands of years our empire expanded.
For so long we could imagine ourselves alone in the universe.
For so long, never did we encounter advanced life.
And we traveled faster and farther, spreading in our galaxy.
And before long we could see the day when our reachable systems would have been exploited.
And then there would be nowhere else to go.
And we discovered subspace. It gave us our galaxy and it gave us the universe.
With subspace, our empire would surely know no boundaries.
One cannot be sure as to how far they expanded, it may have been little beyond GTVA space, it may have been several galaxies.
Regarding the "How many were as large as the Ancients?" It's meaningless, as the Ancients themselves were as insignificant to the Shivans as the "lower races" the Ancients encountered were to them. It's just on a larger scale.
As for the rest, I don't have a formed opinion.
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Actualy i believe that it is said in one of the ancient monologues that they expanded in the galaxi and beyond..but i'm not exactly sure if that is the corect source.
Also TMan:"You're staring to sound like one of those Jehovas witnesses... waiving a book and a shouting a single line of text over and over." I find this rather insulting and quite far from the truth I dont know any of them (at least from the ones i know) that do that. Each arguement in this respective case is backed up by 3 or 4 different texts in diferent books of the Bible.
i dont care about a book on rules from a non exisisant being.
your all sounding like religous zealots imo, this is a game and someone said it themselves. i only presented enough proof on the shivans and the ancients to tell you that what happend, did happen and cant be changed, the race was destroyed and even if 1 survived, without reproduction its as good as dead(highly unlikey its offspring will reproduce with its mother).
what happend out there with the shivans and ancients is a massive battle on every scale imaginable, land, technological, space wars, superiority, etc. and in the end the ancients were killed because there weapons could not penerate the shield of any shivan, they had no shield of thier own, there ownage speeches is exactly what brought them down. is not impossible that the ancients were all killed, its very possible after all someone said something about a 'advanced space faring culture', and just look at what happend to vasuda, alot of innocents died on that planet and only a handful escaped and without the terrans, the vasudans were as good as dead.
the ancients had no allies and could not rely on any race that was around, it could be possible that another race competly killed off the ancients but thats an entirly different matter, but the point is the ancients had nowhere to go, and had a knossos in construction and by the time any, if any convoys reached the knossos, the thing would be active and they would of escaped and shutting the knossos behind them, witch would explian the reasons the shivans destroyed Rivera station at Ross 128.
guess someone was right when they said 'the shivans are just as dependant on jump nodes as we are.' the shivans were trapped.
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I find the Referance Bible to be partial canon... :v: planned for a FS3, though it never was made due to Interplay's crash. The Referance Bible could be changed because the Game Universe isn't completely "in stone" until the last game EVER is made! New ideas enter, scripts change, ideas evolve. Just look at how a campaign writer encounters problems and adapts changes! I plan one mission in advance, knowing the ending I want to use... the story I have currently for TSP is basic... I spit out dialogue as needed, change items rapidly. Mobius is changing some of the missions to fix problems we didn't think fo before... as we develop them, we change others as needed. Make more sense, change difficulty of each mission, etc.
On the point of Shivan shields failing to work in Subspace... remember the hull strength as well. They have some of the strongest shields and hulls! They want to fight in Realspace as Subspace is much more dangerous.
The Human Race versus some like the Aryan race... one is an ethnic group one is a complete species.
The ancients still subdued or crushed countless smaller civilizations; it is very likely that current T/V space is part of Ancient's home-space. The nodes were there, the artifacts are there, it's likely that the Shivans came to Terran space in the first place since they thought we were the Ancients; that they didn't complete the extermination of the Ancients. Probably thought with the Lucifer that the Ancients grew a bit smarter; settled Vasuda, Sol, and a number of other systems. Go for the homeworlds then go for everything else. In the first engagement, they failed to finish off Sol. In the second, something worse... I think that the destruction of the first SJ Sathanas by the GTVA Colossus was a shocker to Shivans... they threw everything they had, thinking once again that T/V were too strong too quickly. Destroy them... warn them for whatever reason.
Shivans seem dependant on subspace rips (aka nodes) to travel between Subspace and Realspace. They are much better at creating temporary "rips" and can find a rip quickly and find where it goes before it disappears. Likely that the destruction of the Knossos, shutting down the Gamma Draconis/Nebula node, was like sewing Realspace back together again; however the Shivans demonstrated that before Truespace mends itself, they can manipulate it and keep a hole in the whole.
Who knows... only :v:
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I find the Referance Bible to be partial canon... :v: planned for a FS3, though it never was made due to Interplay's crash. The Referance Bible could be changed because the Game Universe isn't completely "in stone" until the last game EVER is made! New ideas enter, scripts change, ideas evolve. Just look at how a campaign writer encounters problems and adapts changes! I plan one mission in advance, knowing the ending I want to use... the story I have currently for TSP is basic... I spit out dialogue as needed, change items rapidly. Mobius is changing some of the missions to fix problems we didn't think fo before... as we develop them, we change others as needed. Make more sense, change difficulty of each mission, etc.
On the point of Shivan shields failing to work in Subspace... remember the hull strength as well. They have some of the strongest shields and hulls! They want to fight in Realspace as Subspace is much more dangerous.
The Human Race versus some like the Aryan race... one is an ethnic group one is a complete species.
The ancients still subdued or crushed countless smaller civilizations; it is very likely that current T/V space is part of Ancient's home-space. The nodes were there, the artifacts are there, it's likely that the Shivans came to Terran space in the first place since they thought we were the Ancients; that they didn't complete the extermination of the Ancients. Probably thought with the Lucifer that the Ancients grew a bit smarter; settled Vasuda, Sol, and a number of other systems. Go for the homeworlds then go for everything else. In the first engagement, they failed to finish off Sol. In the second, something worse... I think that the destruction of the first SJ Sathanas by the GTVA Colossus was a shocker to Shivans... they threw everything they had, thinking once again that T/V were too strong too quickly. Destroy them... warn them for whatever reason.
Shivans seem dependant on subspace rips (aka nodes) to travel between Subspace and Realspace. They are much better at creating temporary "rips" and can find a rip quickly and find where it goes before it disappears. Likely that the destruction of the Knossos, shutting down the Gamma Draconis/Nebula node, was like sewing Realspace back together again; however the Shivans demonstrated that before Truespace mends itself, they can manipulate it and keep a hole in the whole.
Who knows... only :v:
When the Reference Bible was made, FS2 didn't exist yet.
Regarding "the shivans thought we were Ancients" is somewhat a strange argument, because the Ancients from a Shivan perspective (It sounds strange, but follow it) aren't that significative, as there were countless races they destroyed before them. The Shivans did what they did when they found the Terrans and Vasudans like when they found the Ancients and races before them.
Regarding the second engagement, I don't imagine a race of cosmic destroyers being shocked that one ship in their 80+ strong juggernaut fleet was destroyed while encountering afterwards little resistance to them.
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heard of the saying, 'an monkey on your back'? in this case the shivans completly killed the monkey, in otherwords.
the GTVA Collossus hunted down and killed the first sj, the first sj was probably a lure so the shivans can gather thier forces as quick as possible, in the end the collossus was destroyed in a calculated attack, the shivans knew full well the GTVA only had one massive ship and took advantage of it, it definatly dropped morale through out the batter against the shivans, and whats more the shivans have gathered thier strength and took capella quickly to stop a counterattack.
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I would... the GTVA never before threw ten Orion at the Sathanas... it would have been a surprise because one of their uber-ships were destroyed by a more-uber ship; The Colossus was an unknown to the Shivans... they would have sent two Sathanas if they knew about it! However they didn't know about it... or at least it doesnt seem that they did.
The GTVA appears to be overlapping or completely in what was Ancients space... a reexpansion with better tech would be bad if they went further, mopping up the remains of other subdued civilizations. The Terrans and Vasudans would be threatening as they would seem to be Ancients; strong, expanding, and with high tech. Nearly to the point that they could be a threat to others and a small dagger in the side of Shivans... the first time sorted out that they weren't Ancients. Still, they were becoming a dagger; best to stop them.
I think it's likely that the Shivans were in many wars at the same time. Perhaps the reason we didnt see Sathanas was because they were mopping up the remains of other civilizations. The Lucifer wasn't seen in FS2 because we had tech to destroy the shielded ship in Realspace, and in Subspace it was much more dangerous for Shivans to fight there. A Sathanas heading a large attack on the GTVA would subdue them once again. When the GTVA destroyed that inital Sathanas, it said to the Shivans that this was much more then just a cleaning-job... time to tear these limb-from-limb!
Very true, Centrixo... it would have been smarter for the GTVA to have kept the Colossus... it was evident that the captain of the Colossus would sacrafice a ship thirty years in the making, instead of jumping out and having it in drydock, repair it for the next 1-3 years. It would have been even better after that; stronger beams, prehaps a second main reactor, overdriven beams as a standard feature. It could probably hold a few more squadrons of fighters and bombers, its speed increased, and its damaged hull reinforced. Damage can be repaired (most of the time) faster then a new ship be built.
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I would... the GTVA never before threw ten Orion at the Sathanas... it would have been a surprise because one of their uber-ships were destroyed by a more-uber ship; The Colossus was an unknown to the Shivans... they would have sent two Sathanas if they knew about it! However they didn't know about it... or at least it doesnt seem that they did.
And how would you know that?
Also, why would the Shivans have an Ancient fixation?
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I would... the GTVA never before threw ten Orion at the Sathanas... it would have been a surprise because one of their uber-ships were destroyed by a more-uber ship; The Colossus was an unknown to the Shivans... they would have sent two Sathanas if they knew about it! However they didn't know about it... or at least it doesnt seem that they did.
And how would you know that?
Also, why would the Shivans have an Ancient fixation?
You could know that because they only sent one Sathanas at first... they would have won a month earlier if they sent two or more!
The Shivans might be obsessed with killing Ancients... they thought they did a job 100%, though the recent combat in that are say that failed. They want to clean up the spill before it spreads; stop what they think are Ancients and make sure they never expand again.
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One cannot be sure as to how far they expanded, it may have been little beyond GTVA space, it may have been several galaxies.
IIRC the tech room specifically states their empire reached well beyond the current expansion of the GTVA.
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yeah but well beyond could mean upto this galaxy and several more. its only speculation witch im going to say; this could be far more bigger than anyone thought possible, who knows how big this battle really is. several galaxies wide and the shivans are in every galaxy thier in. so atleast 3 lucifers and several million jump nodes.
opps i think i opened a can of worms... :P
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I would... the GTVA never before threw ten Orion at the Sathanas... it would have been a surprise because one of their uber-ships were destroyed by a more-uber ship; The Colossus was an unknown to the Shivans... they would have sent two Sathanas if they knew about it! However they didn't know about it... or at least it doesnt seem that they did.
And how would you know that?
Also, why would the Shivans have an Ancient fixation?
You could know that because they only sent one Sathanas at first... they would have won a month earlier if they sent two or more!
The Shivans might be obsessed with killing Ancients... they thought they did a job 100%, though the recent combat in that are say that failed. They want to clean up the spill before it spreads; stop what they think are Ancients and make sure they never expand again.
How do you know that the entire Sathanas armada wasn't already heading for capella?
Also, why specifically the Ancients when they have done the same thing countless times before to countless other races? After 8000 years of their last encounter with that alien race, one would assume they would know it was new one, like the countless new ones they encountered before.
Unless you mean they still think about exterminating the very first race they destroyed.
Regarding the Ancients, it seems I've missed a specific monologue.
When we conquered and colonized in galaxies where we had no place, the destruction and the anguish and the loss were the clarion call of our doom.
Either way, it doesn't alter their destruction at the hands of the Shivans.
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WEll that about settles it with the ancients expansion. I mean you have several knossos gates built in the nebula and you see some more in that SOC mission deep into shivan controlled space. It is a very real posibility that with the ancient subspace tech wich as we can see rivals that of the shivans they might of found a way to seal themselfs in a tini corner and escape the shivans. In an empire as large as the one of the ancients you can not know what goes one all the time in every corner of your empire. With them loosing contact with some sistems and seeing as how the shivans were determined to exterminate them the ancients that left us the monologues could of simpli asumed that those sistems suffered the same fate as the others and that is total conquest and anihalation. But this is just mi personal opinion.
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Given that when the Aquitaine reaches the nebula you are told that you have traveled further than any terran in the history of space travel, and you find other Knossos portals that leaed even further, I woukd say that the Ancient empire was far bigger than the GTVA...
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I agree with the size of the Ancients empire being many times current GTVA territory. Knossos are Ancients, though Shivans will use them for ease of use.
The Ancients Empire was gigantic; it would be hard to find all worlds they've been on and sort out the race of the Ancients and other subdued races. The shivans seem just; they would probably not destroy other races that were subdued by the Ancients. Likely that they would destroy those that have been part of the Ancients Empire for a long time, though unlikely that recent expansion would be truly considered Ancients. Remember the Shivans didn't attack the first planets (if memory serves) of the first conquered systems... they started to exterminate all other Ancients. A liberation force perhaps?
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"For thousands of years our Empire expanded"
That's MANY MANY MANY times GTVA space...
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"For thousands of years our Empire expanded"
That's MANY MANY MANY times GTVA space...
Without subspace technology... read the rest.
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You mean listen the rest...
Unless the translation I have in my mind sucks, you can't give for sure that the Ancients discovered subspace after thousands of years of space exploration. The Terran species discovered it early, the same is for the Vasudans.
The Ancients' civilization was far bigger.
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Ours was a proud people.
And always the strongest.
For thousands of years our empire expanded.
For so long we could imagine ourselves alone in the universe.
For so long, never did we encounter advanced life.
And we traveled faster and farther, spreading in our galaxy.
And before long we could see the day when our reachable systems would have been exploited.
And then there would be nowhere else to go.
And we discovered subspace. It gave us our galaxy and it gave us the universe.
And we saw other advanced life. And we subdued it or we crushed it.
In months, the elimination of billions of years of evolution. On a similar but slower path.
With subspace, our empire would surely know no boundaries.
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I wonder just what technology they were using before they discovered subspace. It's pretty apparent that the GTVA relies exclusively on it for any kind of long-range travel, esp. interstellar. Shivans... maybe not. They use it a lot, sure, but they may also use other methods (Capella explosion?).
Were the Ancients using ships capable of relativistic speeds? Multi-generational ships for travel between stars? Suspended animation of some sort? Some combination of all three?
It seems to flesh out the universe of FS a bit more, in my opinion. Having more than just one way to do something makes it seem more... realistic.
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I doubt the Ancients would have ships capable of relativistic speeds. At least significant ones.
One would imagine they would have managed to colonise the entire galaxy if that were the case. After all, they spent thousand of years expanding without doing so.
Scratch that, one would hope that the reachable systems would be the galaxy, that was what I meant.
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Something says to me if you want to get under the shivans radar and actually take the fight to them for once is if you were equipped with an ftl drive that wasn't node dependent. Warp in, meson bomb, warp out. That'd be funny. At least the terrans have something to look foreward to when it concerns the shivans because of bosch. Perhaps in fs2 command took the ancient warnings, artifacts, and destroyed cities more to heart than we think. I know the gtva found the a good portion of the ntf rebellion permittable because of etak development. GTVA had a good handle on the ntf rebellion to make sure it stayed alive long enough to have etak work, then kill the rebellion when it does. I mean having a good handle on the ntf rebellion is having the colossus eating destroyers for dinner.
GTVA is lucky because of the ancients research, so as opposed to getting wiped out by the shivans in the future, the ntf rebellion helped change that, hopefully, i highly doubt bosch is dead. I bet shivans are as interested in a human that wants to communicate with them as the human who wants to communicate them. I mean if the shivans didn't care about bosch or etak, no azrael transport, and in the first place no boarding the iceni at all. Just outnumber the iceni in the nebula and destroy.
I know the shivans would definitely find bosch useful with him knowing how to turn on and off knossoses and probably having other degrees of ancient technology experience.
Anyway because of the ancients dying, it really did help ensure the existence of later species to develop and preserve themselves. After that terrans are unique when compared to the ancients, terrans did manage to develop a means of communications with shivans. Ancients did not. Terrans are extremely lucky and have something very interesting to look foreward to whether it be good or bad when the shivans show up next time. For once it would be activities different from the shivans known and only seen activities...that would be either good or bad.
Of course this is looking forward to the yet undeveloped and likely not to be fs3, but my main focus is not that right now. Ancients either all 100% killed or not, led up to this, which is what the ancients intended since they knew their fate of ensured destruction by the shivans, they left a basic hints and tips walkthrough booklet authored by V and published by interplay behind for other species to find and heed...in a manner of speaking, you guys get the idea. The ancients had their intended affect of discovered knowledge happen upon different species societies :)
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If the GTVA wasnt at war with the NTF for the past 18 months, then their military would've been much much stronger, and they possibly could've had a better chance.
But against over 80 Sathanas Juggernaughts.....
nothing stands against that. They must've spent eons building a fleet of that magnitude.
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Not exactly, if the GTVA had the necessary resources and could only produce one Colossus at a time at the same rate of the original it would take them 80*20=1600 years to complete a fleet of 80 Colossus. Very long time yes, but not that long. :P
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Not exactly, if the GTVA had the necessary resources and could only produce one Colossus at a time at the same rate of the original it would take them 80*20=1600 years to complete a fleet of 80 Colossus. Very long time yes, but not that long. :P
hi,
i dont think that a rebuild of the colossus will take 20 years again.
the colossus is more a prototype.
i mean look today, how much time we need to development a new fighter or a new ship.
after the work is done, the construction of similar objects are really faster.
i think, with enought resource, its maybe possible to build a colossus class ship in 5 or 10 years.
but i think the GTVA doesnt build colossus class ships like the orginal colossus.
they have see what do a sathanas to the colossus and with that encouter i think they go back to development new technics to meet a sathanas.
but i believe its doesnt need 20 years again, maybe 15 or a little bit lesser.
the GTVA learn a much as they build the thier first juggernaut, and that help to build a new revision or type of a colossus jugernaut, in my opinion.
Mehrpack
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My point was that the Shivans haven't necessarily spent eons building the Sathanas fleet seen in FS2.
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IIRC, the Ancients said that they retreated to their home system at last. This means that either Altair was their home system, or that a separate group survived in Altair at least long enough to record the subspace tracking technology (Or was that developed by the GT(V)A?), at which time the Ancient fleet would have been almost completely destroyed, hence the "no way to deliver the hurt", which complicates the timeline unless the Ancients had a way to correspond across vast distances and through several systems. And the Shivans could very well have wiped out the Ancients almost completely. The Ancient empire may very well have been a vast one. The Shivans may have been able to drive the Ancients out of every system they found, or the Ancients retreated, until they came to their home system and annihilated the ships and cities there. Perhaps they then scanned the systems they had laid waste to, with long-range sensors doing a systematic sweep. We know they had the resources. If they found a ship, they would easily be able to catch up with it; subspace jumps from practically anywhere in a system take only a couple of minutes. Perhaps ships leave subspace trails, marking "here a jump point opened, to wherever."
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I think we've gone through most of the possibilites. Point is... the Ancients seem to be completely destroyed. If they're not, we have yet to stumble on Ancients. If they survive and we stumble upon them, I highly doubt we'll recognize them, their language, their technology, ETC. I doubt they'd remember a language from 8,000 years ago, and still be using the same technology. We never saw an Ancient, so how could we ID one? No DNA that I know of.
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We can talk to them, or before translation devices have been made, or a common ground used, we can monitor their behaviour toward known Ancient sites. They probably have subspace tech unknown to the GTVA, and it would be pretty obvious that they weren't Shivans, given the almost Terran colour scheme of the Knossos.
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But in 8000 years and being scattered and forced to hide, it's highly doubtful indeed that anything above the most basic levels of technology and culture would have survived. A high Technology level is backed up by a high industrial level. The chances are the Ancients were blasted back into their stone-age if any survuved at all, it's not so much a question of 'would we know the Ancients', more a question of 'would the Ancients know the Ancients?'.
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True. I'm just saying that if Ancients survived with their culture intact we could recognize them.
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After 8000 years the ancients probably redesigned a whole bunch of their technology likely on the basis that they were blasted back into the stone age.
On the whole maybe the whole ancients being wiped out thing could be similar to the ancients being wiped out thing in stargate? In stargate their ancients all died off, but ocasionally on times, sg1 would find an ancient in stasis. And on multiple occasions in atlantis, there'd be something like a derelict ancient ship that was long forgotten or something. And no i'm not mentioning the whole ascended thing at all because that would be extremely cheap to have in the fs storyline.