Hard Light Productions Forums

Community Projects => The FreeSpace Upgrade Project => Topic started by: aRaven on January 23, 2007, 11:00:33 am

Title: Explosions
Post by: aRaven on January 23, 2007, 11:00:33 am
Hi everyone!

I just came across this post

http://www.wcnews.com/cgi-bin/searchnews.cgi?action=dosearch&body=WC+Pioneer

and I was amazed how awesome the explosions are. It is possible for somebody to convert them for the Upgrade Project or make similar ones?

Title: Re: Explosions
Post by: spartan_0214 on January 23, 2007, 11:01:48 am
Funny, they look the same as the ones in the VP folders....
Title: Re: Explosions
Post by: neoterran on January 28, 2007, 08:30:08 pm
no, actually they look quite a bit better.
Title: Re: Explosions
Post by: taylor on January 28, 2007, 09:00:51 pm
no, actually they look quite a bit better.
^^ Understatement. :)

Really though, someone should see if we can use those or not.  It's easy enough to convert those MOVs into EFFs, but I'm not about to do it without their permission.
Title: Re: Explosions
Post by: neoterran on January 28, 2007, 09:31:15 pm
The two on the right are different than FS2 SCP and do look better. Also, when will the next official build come out and the next media vps? I have 3.6.9 Zeta vps I believe. Will the files "mp-710_adveffects, mp-710_models, and mp-710_effects still be required to avoid bugs like the smoke being black pixels and the shield hits being black when the next vps are released?

no. And you have the 3.6.8 zetas.
Title: Re: Explosions
Post by: Taristin on January 28, 2007, 10:26:39 pm
no, actually they look quite a bit better.
^^ Understatement. :)

Really though, someone should see if we can use those or not.  It's easy enough to convert those MOVs into EFFs, but I'm not about to do it without their permission.

Anyone with combustion can make explosions like that. I practiced with a few for Machina Terra back in the day. Dont have the OGL ICD yet so cant really play around more. :/
Title: Re: Explosions
Post by: CP5670 on January 29, 2007, 12:20:53 am
The explosions are probably the only aspect of the graphics that have not been upgraded at all since retail. We could definitely use something better there. They looked great eight years ago, but now they really stick out compared to everything else.
Title: Re: Explosions
Post by: neoterran on January 29, 2007, 11:53:46 am
I was just playing yesterday and the one thing that really sticks out now (that everything else is so good) is how bad our explosions are. I think upgrading them will make a big improvement to percieved quality.

I don't think these guys will want to share their custom explosions with us, but I'm sure we can do better than what we currently have. Any of the graphics gurus want to try ? And use this thread as the feedback center ?
Title: Re: Explosions
Post by: Einstine909 on January 29, 2007, 03:13:24 pm
well i just released mine...

http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,44999.0.html
Title: Re: Explosions
Post by: neoterran on January 29, 2007, 05:36:57 pm
well i just released mine...

http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,44999.0.html


Uh, that's nice and all, but it's a shockwave, not an explosion. Different thing.
Title: Re: Explosions
Post by: Einstine909 on January 29, 2007, 08:25:03 pm
ok that will be my next project...sorry about that...
Title: Re: Explosions
Post by: aldo_14 on January 30, 2007, 04:42:14 am
no, actually they look quite a bit better.
^^ Understatement. :)

Really though, someone should see if we can use those or not.  It's easy enough to convert those MOVs into EFFs, but I'm not about to do it without their permission.

Anyone with combustion can make explosions like that. I practiced with a few for Machina Terra back in the day. Dont have the OGL ICD yet so cant really play around more. :/

You have combustion?  For what version of Max?   I think they ripped it out of v4.  Or i'm an idiot.   Either's likely :)
Title: Re: Explosions
Post by: Taristin on January 30, 2007, 08:40:08 am
Combustion 4, I have. Tis a separate stand-alone program. Atleast the one I have.
Title: Re: Explosions
Post by: aldo_14 on January 30, 2007, 09:33:20 am
Combustion 4, I have. Tis a separate stand-alone program. Atleast the one I have.

Sounds interesting. ;)
Title: Re: Explosions
Post by: gevatter Lars on February 05, 2007, 01:16:55 pm
Combustion is a standalone program from the same company that made Max as far as I know.
Title: Re: Explosions
Post by: neoterran on February 05, 2007, 01:53:12 pm
Hmm, well, some work spent on upgrading the explosions across the board with an eye to making them look more realistic in a space (no oxygen) environment would be really cool.
Title: Re: Explosions
Post by: Taristin on February 05, 2007, 02:20:22 pm
What would a fiery explosion look like in space?
Title: Re: Explosions
Post by: neoterran on February 05, 2007, 02:32:05 pm
it would likely look like a normal explosion, but as only the oxygen from the source (ie the space craft) is used, then it would be alot less pluming and billowing of an explosion like the ones we have - It would look more like the ones at the top of this thread in the very beginning where you see the force exploding out like liberty spikes... but then have the explosion over quicker instead of letting it go on and on forever.

A scientist's take :
Quote
Visually the effect would be of a very brief, brilliant flash in a region only a little bigger than the actual extent of the explosive material. Of course there would be no billowing swirling smoke, and any fragments would almost certainly be moving too fast to be visible. The effect would probably be something like that of a big flashbulb.

Source : http://spider.ipac.caltech.edu/staff/waw/mad/mad12.html
Title: Re: Explosions
Post by: MP-Ryan on February 05, 2007, 03:14:32 pm
it would likely look like a normal explosion, but as only the oxygen from the source (ie the space craft) is used, then it would be alot less pluming and billowing of an explosion like the ones we have - It would look more like the ones at the top of this thread in the very beginning where you see the force exploding out like liberty spikes... but then have the explosion over quicker instead of letting it go on and on forever.

A scientist's take :
Quote
Visually the effect would be of a very brief, brilliant flash in a region only a little bigger than the actual extent of the explosive material. Of course there would be no billowing swirling smoke, and any fragments would almost certainly be moving too fast to be visible. The effect would probably be something like that of a big flashbulb.

Source : http://spider.ipac.caltech.edu/staff/waw/mad/mad12.html

That, and no aftereffects - the vaccuum of space would snuff out any fire, and almost instantaneously dissipate any residual heat/smoke/light.  The flashbulb analogy would be better if it said a flashbulb in a pitch-black room.  The initial flash would expand exponentially in volume, but in doing so would disperse any light and heat energy equally as quickly as there's no air resistance.

What I'm saying in convoluted fashion is that the explosions we have presently are too slow, too condensed, and too long-lasting.  They should be a blink of expanding light, nothing more.
Title: Re: Explosions
Post by: JGZinv on February 05, 2007, 03:51:56 pm
Being in a nebula would likely have a different explosion due to whatever
substance was floating around along with the ship...

However since the nebulas do not ignite from the thruster flame as soon as you enter one,
you could assume that all these substances are not flammable in that particular sense.

Would be interesting if there was a nebula igniter missile though, or something
to the effect of a napalm launcher.  :D
Title: Re: Explosions
Post by: neoterran on February 05, 2007, 04:21:28 pm
don't get started on the nebula - the exhaust from freespace engines would definately ignite gas as thick as it is portrayed.

We're not shooting for absolute scientific certainty here -  we are just trying to improve the current effects, and if we are doing so, we can make them look a little less like huge air-bound hydrocarbon explosions and more like limited space explosions.

A little artistic liscense would be okay too - a quick moving shockwave ring along with the flash would be alright i expect. I hope that our modders and graphics guys can come up with something everyone will accept.
Title: Re: Explosions
Post by: Pnakotus on February 05, 2007, 04:25:37 pm
Shockwave rings = the suck.  I'll accept it for capships and bombs since it's from the original, but someone put rings on missiles once and it looked lame.

Also, how is a nebula going to 'ignite' when it's pretty much hydrogen?  Hydrogen combusting with... what?
Title: Re: Explosions
Post by: neoterran on February 05, 2007, 04:35:16 pm
the super hot exhaust from the freespace engines as portrayed surely contains enough oxygen to create flamable conditions.

I'm not saying the whole nebula would go up - but as thick as the gas is shown, you might see trail effects of burning hydrogen in the wake of freespace vessels.

Actually that might even be room for another thread - that would be super cool !

And okay screw the shockwave ring then. But at least have a very bright flash. Personally i think it would look even cooler as a quick bright flash with no "explosion" sound (since there would be none in space)
Title: Re: Explosions
Post by: spartan_0214 on February 05, 2007, 06:05:49 pm
Does anyone know if there's a tech description of the propulsion systems on the fighters?

And okay screw the shockwave ring then. But at least have a very bright flash. Personally i think it would look even cooler as a quick bright flash with no "explosion" sound (since there would be none in space)

You're right, there's no sound in space, but maybe what you're hearing in game is the effects of the weapons in your ship. Or it could be that the computer system puts in sounds so you know where NOT to fly or that you're getting shot, etc. Logistically, I could see something like that in the Freespace 'verse. Although it would be interesting to see a game without sounds in space...
Title: Re: Explosions
Post by: Pnakotus on February 05, 2007, 11:11:42 pm
the super hot exhaust from the freespace engines as portrayed surely contains enough oxygen to create flamable conditions.

What?  Why?  Are you saying you think they're chemical rockets?  What kind of rate of flow could you possibly be looking at when fighters have hours and hours of endurance? 

Quote
I'm not saying the whole nebula would go up - but as thick as the gas is shown, you might see trail effects of burning hydrogen in the wake of freespace vessels.

And I'm saying 'why'.  Trail effects are one thing - as you say, the density of gas is ridiculous - but it's not like hydrogen + heat = fire.  This is highschool physics here.

Why the christ anyone would try and put 'lolz no sound in space' into a game like Freespace is beyond me.  I bet sound effects are way beyond the futuristic technology of the GTVA, right?  And let's change the game not to be 'better' or 'more Freespacey' but to be more 'realistic'.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Explosions
Post by: neoterran on February 05, 2007, 11:30:12 pm
the super hot exhaust from the freespace engines as portrayed surely contains enough oxygen to create flamable conditions.

What?  Why?  Are you saying you think they're chemical rockets?  What kind of rate of flow could you possibly be looking at when fighters have hours and hours of endurance? 

Quote
I'm not saying the whole nebula would go up - but as thick as the gas is shown, you might see trail effects of burning hydrogen in the wake of freespace vessels.

And I'm saying 'why'.  Trail effects are one thing - as you say, the density of gas is ridiculous - but it's not like hydrogen + heat = fire.  This is highschool physics here.

Why the christ anyone would try and put 'lolz no sound in space' into a game like Freespace is beyond me.  I bet sound effects are way beyond the futuristic technology of the GTVA, right?  And let's change the game not to be 'better' or 'more Freespacey' but to be more 'realistic'.  :rolleyes:

well, that isn't the main focus of the thread, so kindly please refrain from trying to derail it with quibbles over physics and realism. I just want to see some new explosions. If they happen to look more realistic, that's a bonus.
Title: Re: Explosions
Post by: Pnakotus on February 05, 2007, 11:40:13 pm
Let's see.  You say 'let's have x because it's realistic and neat'.  It is not realistic.  When this is pointed out, you say 'na uh it is' and then 'lol zomg don't hijack!!!!111'.  Fantastic.  :rolleyes:  Everyone agrees new explosions are needed, and they'll almost certainly be the petrol-can type already seen in the game.  Don't get upset at me because you're wrong about physics.  You even claim it 'isn't the main focus of the thread' when it's about explosions and their characteristics.  Yeah, that's waaaaaaaay off topic there buddy.
Title: Re: Explosions
Post by: neoterran on February 05, 2007, 11:42:13 pm
Hey look at me !!!!

No thanks...

I actually went to the trouble to post a link to a website involving an explanation of how more real explosions could look. You just seem to want to go off trying to lolllerskate on how i'm all wrong on some oxygen nebula stuff. Okay you win. Now try contributing to the thread instead of showing off.
Title: Re: Explosions
Post by: Slime on February 06, 2007, 04:31:21 am
Just calm down, you two...

I think some realism might do good to the explosions, but they would have to be something that fits with the feel of the rest of the game. Too simple explosions wouldn't fit with the energy (not physical energy..) of FS 2 in it's current form. Well, if someone is going to try and better the explosions, be sure to show the progress here so that we can debate on it... hopefully for not all eternity.

Title: Re: Explosions
Post by: Flipside on February 06, 2007, 11:50:55 am
Personally, I don't give a damn whether they look 'realistic' or not, most explosions in space that have occured in human history have been air-related, which is explosive decompression, not an explosive substance igniting in some way, so we really can only make educated guesses anyway ;)

As long as it looks good and works well with the Engine, that's what counts.

And, yeah, calm down, it's really not that important ;)
Title: Re: Explosions
Post by: Herra Tohtori on February 06, 2007, 12:09:10 pm
I'm not saying the whole nebula would go up - but as thick as the gas is shown, you might see trail effects of burning hydrogen in the wake of freespace vessels.

And I'm saying 'why'.  Trail effects are one thing - as you say, the density of gas is ridiculous - but it's not like hydrogen + heat = fire.  This is highschool physics here.


My point zero two monetary units here.

The nebular gas wouldn't ignite, at least hopefully... but trail effects would still be plausible. Hot things tend to glow. Spaceship engines are bound to be hot. So it would be plausible that the ships would create a slowly diffusing, softly glowing heat trail.

At least when the afterburner is on.

...oh wait.

 ::)
Title: Re: Explosions
Post by: General Battuta on February 06, 2007, 12:17:15 pm
We have everything in this video clip, except the explosions.  Let's get explosions like this.

WARNING: Major Battlestar Galactica Season 3 spoilers. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awxLGua3CDA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awxLGua3CDA)

Title: Re: Explosions
Post by: Zacam on February 06, 2007, 03:56:19 pm
Wow. That's some seriously NICE stuff right there......
Title: Re: Explosions
Post by: General Battuta on February 06, 2007, 04:10:58 pm
There's more, too.

Shows off some beautiful weapon effects and more explosions.  I really think we should have explosions in this style.

More Galactica spoilers, from just a few minutes earlier than that last clip...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUhC8VkoDa8&mode=related&search=

I'd post more, but at that point it'd just be taking this thread off-topic. 
Title: Re: Explosions
Post by: Zacam on February 06, 2007, 04:25:17 pm
It's a good thing I have a spill proof keyboard, cuz I always drool at that point. :)

TO be more on topic, I'm sure there some sort of way to use a render program to create particle effects. (Kinda like what an 8800 GTX ships with. *wimper* )

EFF would be straight out I think, but what about an EFF-like thing made with good quality DDS files? (something that containers the framing file and DDS files instead of having 9 million loose DDS files.)
Title: Re: Explosions
Post by: Herra Tohtori on February 06, 2007, 04:29:47 pm
How about thing called "VP"? ;7

Title: Re: Explosions
Post by: neoterran on February 06, 2007, 05:06:27 pm
LOL !
Title: Re: Explosions
Post by: Zacam on February 07, 2007, 04:59:58 am
Yeah, and that works for anybody not trying to manage to content of said vp.
Title: Re: Explosions
Post by: Herra Tohtori on February 07, 2007, 05:13:08 am
True. But for end-users, it works fine. And what comes to developers... Just keep the stuff for different effects in separate mod folders and activate them as needed.
Title: Re: Explosions
Post by: taylor on February 10, 2007, 11:19:50 pm
Back on the primary topic ...

So, is anyone actually going to volunteer to do some new explosions?

After converting the ones linked in the first post to EFF, and making them run much faster than what the current explosions, it's almost unbelievable how much it improves the general game look.  It would be nice to have some official that we can use. :)
Title: Re: Explosions
Post by: Kaine on February 11, 2007, 05:31:50 am
so there hasn't been any confirmation as to whether we can/can't use those ones?

I'd be mildly suprised if that Howard character didn't allow the FSUP crew some kind of creative licence with them. I'd love to have a go, but wouldn't know where to start making explosion animations.
Title: Re: Explosions
Post by: taylor on February 11, 2007, 12:00:48 pm
so there hasn't been any confirmation as to whether we can/can't use those ones?
Somebody just needs to ask.  I've already got them converted and usable, so we just need permission.
Title: Re: Explosions
Post by: neoterran on February 11, 2007, 12:20:08 pm
Maybe we can offer to help them with some effects or if there are some effects we can share ?
Title: Re: Explosions
Post by: takashi on March 18, 2007, 09:56:34 pm
didnt lightspeed release hi-res explosions? (they're on his homepage, same place as the nebulae)
Title: Re: Explosions
Post by: jr2 on March 19, 2007, 03:34:19 am
This is interesting...
Title: Re: Explosions
Post by: Prophet on March 22, 2007, 02:10:52 am
Just stopping by to plant an image in your heads...

I always like the explosion effects in Edge of Chaos. The shiped looked like they were going down in flames simply because the explosion animation was so long. It looked cool. Obviously it wouldn't look so cool on fighters. But when capitalships die bleeding fire all over, I just feel so happy. :)
Title: Re: Explosions
Post by: jr2 on March 22, 2007, 08:02:06 am
Maybe make that a slow explosion, and make another, fast explosion... the ships in FS all blow up the same pretty much, this should be changed, and be FREDdable so that the mission designer controls how the explosion goes down.  Make the default be the normal FS explosions, and add others as options.  What you think?
You could have one explosion really fast, like an on-board bomb exploded, have another explosion for a ship that's basically been torn to shreds little bit by little bit at the hands of enemy bombers, have another explosion for reactor going supercritical, hmm... how about the ammo supplies going off?  WWII battleships threw some pretty impressive fireworks when their main (or secondary, or any) magazine cooked off.  Again, what do you think?