Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Setekh on January 11, 2002, 09:26:00 pm
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I was talking to Sandwich and his brother Jed the other day, and it only just hit me that both of them can speak and write fluent Hebrew. I myself can speak and write my fair share of flavours of Chinese; and obviously everyone here is pretty good with their English (WHIT a few notable exceptions (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)). I know Venom speaks French (euoohè)... Anyone else speak any different languages? (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
Anyway, that got me thinking further (*gasp!* first real exercise my grey matter's gotten for a while... (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)). Terrans have so many languages and dialects - thousands and thousands of different variations - and so wildly diverse that one language (eg. Japanese) can sound completely alien to another (eg. Russian). if that is so with us, why shouldn't it be so with the Vasudans? Or have the Vasudans decided on a language like 'Vasudan Standard', comparable to our own English? (All international aircraft pilots are required to learn English so that they can communicate with international airports, as well as recite the International Alphabet - Alpha, Bravo, Charlie etc. - which also happens to come only in English.)
And, what about Shivans? So far all we've heard from them are a few unintelligible chirps from a cruiser in the nebula. How does ETAK interpret their language?
Lastly (big plate tonight), why has the human race produced so many wildly different languages? Let's disregard the Tower of Babel event for a moment and see if there is any other possible explanation.
IIRC, there are two major types of language - glyph-based (eg. Egyptian, Chinese) and alphabet-based (eg. Hebrew, English). Someone correct me if I'm wrong (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif) But, what could cause a change from one to another? Why would one group of people choose one type of language over another? For that matter, assuming we began with a glyph/symbol-based language first (ie. cave paintings), how did we even develop an alphabetic sequence in the first place?
(No religious discussion, please. I have my own opinion abotu most of this and I believe it to be true, but I'd like to see what you can guys can come up with. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif))
Okay, now I'll sit back and wait while you digest all that. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
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Hmmm, there's more than 2 main groups of language. We only touched on those in Europe in my European History class last semester, but there was one main one (Indo-European) and at least one other. And this was in Europe alone. Languages also 'pollute' one another.
As for the 'Zogs, I think at some point they ended up with 'Vasudan Global' or some such, because their language is very complex and is dependent upon distance from the Emperor, rank, time of day, temperature, so on and so forth. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
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*sigh*
All I speak are English, Drunkenese, Dog and the accasional cat phrase or two.
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I usually act as a Drunkenese translator when I myself am not speaking it...
"gemmeh da!" = "Beer me!"
"uhhhhhh -guh- uhhh" = "Move it, I'm gonna puke."
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quid?
tu bibis vinum? tu es multuus stultior quam mortuus canis. eheu! Setekh est contendit ad foro! nunc sum mortuus! ego incitavi flamma pugna...
"What?"
"You drink wine? You are much stupider than a dead dog. Oh no! Setekh is hurrying to the forum! Now I am dead! I started a flame fight..."
No, they are not in the right word order... (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/nervous.gif)
BTW, did you know "et cetera" is Latin? It means "And the rest", and I think "ad hoc" is also Latin...literally, "to this" if it is (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by WMCoolmon (edited 01-11-2002).]
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Sé hablar español y sé algunas palabras alemanas también
(http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
All I know is that English if ya look at it looks more likes improved german. Most of the words are very common and when you say them they sound fairly similar.
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Originally posted by CODEDOG ND:
Sé hablar español y sé algunas palabras alemanas también
(http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
All I know is that English if ya look at it looks more likes improved german. Most of the words are very common and when you say them they sound fairly similar.
English being primarily germanic in origin might have something to do with that.
Also, Steak, you mentioned a seperation between glyph and alphabet based languages. This, however, is an artificial distinction. With the exception of one, alphabets are simplifications of glyphs. Hirigana and katakana's origin in simplified kanji, and kanji's origin in unsymplified chinese glyphs are a perfect example. Even the alphabet used by english speakers the world over is glyph based at its roots. A good example is the letter A from its roots as the hebraeic aleph.
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--Mik
http://www.404error.com
ruhkferret on ICQ/AIM
"Your guy was a little SQUARE! You had to use your IMAGINATION! There were no multiple levels or screens. There was just one screen forever and you could never win the game. It just kept getting harder and faster until you died. JUST LIKE LIFE." --Ernie Cline
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Bzzt.
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For example, take this phrase:
"ja, und mein Deutsch ist nach so gut"
"Yeah, and my German is not so good"
Or so the person said...
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I know basic spanish. But apparently it's more than AWACS knew. What does Muy bueno senor mean? Hmm...
As for the Vasudans, people don't have to speak in a language anywhere near our own to understand it, it's just a matter of learning it, or using translators...
I really can't offer a hypothesis about the difference in languages throughout the world. Maybe some people thought that their language sounded so much cooler than anything else that was being used at the time. Maybe it's also too late in the evening for me to think properly. Take your pick. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
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We am the ever. We speak the language of reason and of truth. Join us.[/i]
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Als het lente wordt gooien wij bommen op amsterdam bommen op amsterdam
[This message has been edited by USS Alexander (edited 01-12-2002).]
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Genau.
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I can speak Polish and my vocab in english is pretty kick arse. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tongue.gif) I would say glyphs are much easy to decipher rather than alphabets. There are limitations to glyphs in terms of how many where created compared to alphabets that have vast amounts of terminology. Though most languages can be deciphered using several known techniques. (Which I will not disclose) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tongue.gif). I think some of the main reasons into the diverse range of languages today is the secrecy, tradition and culture.
Well I'll be toodling off to.... (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wtf.gif)..hmmm this stuff I’m working on (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tongue.gif)
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Max
Flash Developer
Ps6 Beginner
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lol "euhoohè" was "away" Steak (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
Franchement, est-ce ce que le français wous parait une langue extra-terrestre, à vous?
Honestly, does french sounds alien to you?
(stops for while, waiting for the the "yes" to stop being shooted)
Anyway, it sure appeals to foreigner chicks (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif) ( (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif) to DC (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif) )
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not really, if you know latin you can kinda make out some of the words.
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It is a widely known fact that genetic determine physical attributes. It is also known to a lot of people (religious people) that at one time, when some ancient country was being flooded with immigrants pretending to be natives, that to determine the foreigners they asked them to say a certain word which, due to a common genetic factor, could not be pronounced as the foreigners had some slight difference with their tongue. My point being that depending on your ancestory you have the ability to speak a certain language more easily than you would many others and this would obviously affect the language in your country. Like how there's no 'th' in french.
The same goes for the writting. Ancient chinese people had a certain eye for the aesthetic and as such liked things to look good. They made their written language reflect this.
Note: A study was conducted a while ago to see which languages babies were most responsive too and when stuff was said in English it got a better response from the kiddys than a heap of other languages.
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Originally posted by an0n:
It is a widely known fact that genetic determine physical attributes. It is also known to a lot of people (religious people) that at one time, when some ancient country was being flooded with immigrants pretending to be natives, that to determine the foreigners they asked them to say a certain word which, due to a common genetic factor, could not be pronounced as the foreigners had some slight difference with their tongue. My point being that depending on your ancestory you have the ability to speak a certain language more easily than you would many others and this would obviously affect the language in your country. Like how there's no 'th' in french.
The same goes for the writting. Ancient chinese people had a certain eye for the aesthetic and as such liked things to look good. They made their written language reflect this.
Note: A study was conducted a while ago to see which languages babies were most responsive too and when stuff was said in English it got a better response from the kiddys than a heap of other languages.
th like in "the" is "z" in french ( zephir )
th like in thought is "f" ( fourmi )
being able to talk a ceirtain way because of genetical stuff is buII****. It's all about prctice, try a demi doesn times to pronounce a word you're supposed not to be able to pronounce, and you will. The gene of pronounciating "th" (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/lol.gif)
Stop smoking weed.
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Originally posted by an0n:
It is a widely known fact that genetic determine physical attributes. It is also known to a lot of people (religious people) that at one time, when some ancient country was being flooded with immigrants pretending to be natives, that to determine the foreigners they asked them to say a certain word which, due to a common genetic factor, could not be pronounced as the foreigners had some slight difference with their tongue. My point being that depending on your ancestory you have the ability to speak a certain language more easily than you would many others and this would obviously affect the language in your country. Like how there's no 'th' in french.
The same goes for the writting. Ancient chinese people had a certain eye for the aesthetic and as such liked things to look good. They made their written language reflect this.
Note: A study was conducted a while ago to see which languages babies were most responsive too and when stuff was said in English it got a better response from the kiddys than a heap of other languages.
I agree with Venom that the genetical stuff is BS. I think it's more about environment than your genes. You pointed out that your are dependant of your ancestors, which I believe is right but not because their genes.
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Ich spreche English und ein Bißchen Deutsch.
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Personally i speak English and French(1 year still left on my course). I know a fair amount of Latin such as
"Deus dies irae", which means Gods day of wrath.
I think the Terrans probably from a story point of view all speak Terran(English) but if born on Earth they might learn the native language. Like in Pakistan, the primary language is English but their are loads of other little tribal languages. Also depends which English you use as standard, you you spell Colour that way or take the American approach and spell it color (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif). Colour is said as "Colurr" not "Collor". Doesnt Japanese have 20,000 letters?
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Or have the Vasudans decided on a language like 'Vasudan Standard', comparable to our own English?
They probably have something like that. The tech room says that the Vasdans have "thousands of different dialects", but one language is probably generally accepted as the standard, kind of like English is today.
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Originally posted by Zeronet:
[B...Doesnt Japanese have 20,000 letters?[/B]
No. Hiragana and Katakana are only a small set of 'letters' (more like phonemes). They also have Kanji, of which there are tens of thousands, but these aren't 'letters' but pictograms. Most Japanese know about 5000 standard kanji, and another two or three thousand that are appropriate to them. Kanji can be pronounced in different ways, and can mean many different ways. A good example is the kanji for 'rice patty'. It also means 'money' and, in some cases, can mean 'an uncountable number of things'.
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--Mik
http://www.404error.com
ruhkferret on ICQ/AIM
"Your guy was a little SQUARE! You had to use your IMAGINATION! There were no multiple levels or screens. There was just one screen forever and you could never win the game. It just kept getting harder and faster until you died. JUST LIKE LIFE." --Ernie Cline
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Originally posted by Zeronet:
Personally i speak English and French(1 year still left on my course). I know a fair amount of Latin such as
"Deus dies irae", which means Gods day of wrath.
I think the Terrans probably from a story point of view all speak Terran(English) but if born on Earth they might learn the native language. Like in Pakistan, the primary language is English but their are loads of other little tribal languages. Also depends which English you use as standard, you you spell Colour that way or take the American approach and spell it color (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif). Colour is said as "Colurr" not "Collor". Doesnt Japanese have 20,000 letters?
The japanese have three alpahbets:
The hiragana (46 symbols), the katagana (36 symbols), and the chinese alphabet (many thousands of kanji). Plus they use the romaji (our own latin characters), for stuff like product names and in advertisings.
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Originally posted by venom2506:
The japanese have three alpahbets:
The hiragana (46 symbols), the katagana (36 symbols), and the chinese alphabet (many thousands of kanji). Plus they use the romaji (our own latin characters), for stuff like product names and in advertisings.
Kanji is not an alphabet. They are pictograms. They are of chinese origin, but they are not the same as chinese kanji. Japanese kanji is simplified, but looks similar.
Katakana (I think, I might have this backwards) is used for foreign words (as well as romaji) and Hirigana is used for native japanese words.
I miss Japan. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif)
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--Mik
http://www.404error.com
ruhkferret on ICQ/AIM
"Your guy was a little SQUARE! You had to use your IMAGINATION! There were no multiple levels or screens. There was just one screen forever and you could never win the game. It just kept getting harder and faster until you died. JUST LIKE LIFE." --Ernie Cline
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(http://www.engrish.com/images/buildings/fleshjuice.JPG)
[This message has been edited by PhReAk (edited 01-12-2002).]
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Borg:We are the Borg. Resistance is futile. Your cultural and technological distinctiveness will be added to our own.
Picard:Data, send them the dictionaries for all world languages!
Borg: :Sensory overload, self-destructs:
[This message has been edited by Grey Wolf 2009 (edited 01-12-2002).]
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(http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/lol.gif)
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Max
Flash Developer
Ps6 Beginner
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hehe, gotta love that site (www.engrish.com) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/lol.gif)
I speak Finnish, English, German, AND I should know how to speak Swedish BUT that "skill" is a bit rusty (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tongue.gif)
and god I'd like to learn Japanese. There just aren't many cheap courses around here... I guess
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Aki Malinen
[email protected]
... ... ... ("http://www.kuhmonet.fi/home/malineak/index.htm")
Creator of the Enemies United
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hmm...flesh juice? I wonder what that tastes like... (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
I pretty much only know English really well along with a bit of Marathi (off-shoot of Hindi) and of course, Zog language. vubup-bup vup vup-bup buvup bup.
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I know some basic Tolkien elvish. I'd love to be able to write in elvish script, it's very lovely to look at.
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"Friendship is unnecessary, like philosophy, like art... It has no survival value; rather is one of those things that give value to survival."
- C. S. Lewis
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Everone, read this: http://www.forwardgarden.com/forward/804 ("http://www.forwardgarden.com/forward/804")
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Haha...
Thats great...
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Oh, its a shame I didn't read this thread earlier. I've read some really neat stuff recently about languages...mostly because im taking a Communications Studies major at University. So this is all neat stuff.
Genetic stuff is complete and utter garbage as far as I'm concerned and everything I read indicates. But its very easy to explain why one group of people would find it very difficult to say something "natively" in another area (taking from the example above). The reason is because babies, almost as soon as they gain their vision (because you don't have perfect 20/20 vision right off the bat) watch the facial movements of their parents. They have already heard their mother speak for quite a few months (in and out of the womb) and the vibrations have become familar. Apparently its a very fast process where a baby picks up on the facial movements of their parents and this is why they will form the same patterns of speech.
Now as to glyphs and alphabets, thats probably an unanswerable question. Chineese for instance (and there is probably a whole bunch of variations, so I'll just generalize) is actually somewhat more direct than the western alphabet is. Its far less arbitrary because the symbols actually have visual meanings. But in English, French, German and others, the letter A has very little intrinsic value if any. The words "Table" or "House" mean little if you don't know what they are supposed to represent.
As far as FreeSpace's Vasudans go, its quite possible that two things exist.
1) A "local" dialect of language that exists in some more remote areas.
2) A more universal language that exists on all of Vasuda Prime (speaking before the Lucifer bombardment). Now Vasudan language is very interesting and complex as it relates to the time of day I think and your position from the Emperor and all of that. SO its alot more fluid and confusing for an outsider to pickup on.
Probably Terrans are the same thing by the time of FreeSpace and its possible that we will go the same way as well. English is slowly becoming one of the most written (in any case) language in the world because of the Internet. Now regardless of if its English or another language, the Internet is starting to bring alot of people together and whats the point if they can't all understand each other.
So, technology is going to do one of two things.
1) Its going to largely unify languages in a hundred or two hundred years. If only because everyone needs to be able to understand each other.
2) Technology is going to make it possible for everyone to speak/write in their own language and then run through a highly complex (not yet invented) translator which will translate between languages instantaneously and prefectly so that everyone is able to communicate their ideas anyways.
So either technology will force everyone to use the same language, or it will preserve languages and allow more people to use their own language (provided its in the translator).
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Originally posted by Grey Wolf 2009:
Everone, read this: http://www.forwardgarden.com/forward/804 ("http://www.forwardgarden.com/forward/804")
That's a variation on a proposal by one Samuel Clemens, better known as Mark Twain. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
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--Mik
http://www.404error.com
ruhkferret on ICQ/AIM
"Your guy was a little SQUARE! You had to use your IMAGINATION! There were no multiple levels or screens. There was just one screen forever and you could never win the game. It just kept getting harder and faster until you died. JUST LIKE LIFE." --Ernie Cline
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I'd never read that before, it's pretty amazing that you can still figure out all of the words and read them without too much difficulty (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
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And it sounds like English with a bad German accent.
Personally I speak Dutch/Flemish (not exactly the same) as my mother-tongue.
English of course (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
Und ein bisschen Deutch aber nicht sehr gut.
Et un peux de Français, mais ç'est plus mauvais que mon Allemand.
I can read Latin and understand a fair bit of it.
And I know some loose words in several other languages, just like most people on Earth.
[This message has been edited by Crazy_Ivan80 (edited 01-13-2002).]
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Originally posted by Crazy_Ivan80:
Et un peux de Français, mais ç'est plus mauvais que mon Allemand.
en effet (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
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Originally posted by venom2506:
en effet (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
But I never claimed anything else!! (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
And you understood what I wanted to say, so it wasn't that bad...
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hehe that does sound like english with a bad german accent.
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Originally posted by Crazy_Ivan80:
But I never claimed anything else!! (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
And you understood what I wanted to say, so it wasn't that bad...
sure, I know lot of french who would right worth than that (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif) I give you B+ ( you missed the A coz the syntax is not perfect, and you put peux instead of peu (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif) )
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AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This reminds me of french (the leson in school)
AAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!
I basicly failed it... wonder why
I knwo Basic Visual Basic though...
Soon C++ yay!
AND FRED SEXP lauguage!!
I know basic HTML
and can understand manuals!!
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I like to MOD!
I can try and make an entire TC myslef.
GRDLA, TSC, SSPF, Bandits, Aliens - ah pants!
www.ARMOUREDSTAR.com ("http://www.ARMOUREDSTAR.com")
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I know:
- Portuguese: Native language
- English: Studied for many years, fluent
- Spanish: Know a bit, can understand and make people understand me
- Italian: Same as spanish
- German: Starting to learn it, know some stuff
- Javanese: Aha! Bet you didn't expect this one!
As for computer languages:
- C / C++
- Java / JSP / J2EE
- PHP
- Pascal / Object Pascal
- Prolog / Lisp (argh!)
- VHDL (anyone who knows what this is gets a cookie!)
- SQL / XML / XSL (not really programming languages, but...)
- Lots of other less important stuff
And I don't know VB, and I'm damn proud of it! (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
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Add me to hebrew speakers
this is a test if you can read the hebrew font : ùìåí
that read hello
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Originally posted by venom2506:
sure, I know lot of french who would right worth than that (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif) I give you B+ ( you missed the A coz the syntax is not perfect, and you put peux instead of peu (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif) )
that's more than i got in the last years of Highschool. But then again the French we used there was lot more complicated than this simple sentence.
Not that I care about French (I abhor it to be honest) but as long as I can make myself clear I consider my (ab)use of language succesful
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French (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif). I think the lesson should be reworked so it doesnt exist. I dont really see the point. I wanted to learn German.
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Originally posted by Styxx:
- VHDL (anyone who knows what this is gets a cookie!)
*ahem* (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/naughty.gif)
(VHSIC Hardware Description Language) A hardware description language (HDL) used to design electronic systems at the component, board and system level. VHDL allows models to be developed at a very high level of abstraction. Initially conceived as a documentation language only, most of the language can today be used for simulation and logic synthesis. VHDL is an IEEE standard, but was initially developed for the U.S. military's VHSIC program.
Atomica ("http://www.atomica.com/") rulez! (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
Originally posted by Ace Pace:
Add me to hebrew speakers
this is a test if you can read the hebrew font : ùìåí
that read hello
Y'know, you almost live right down the street from me - for all we know we've bumped into each other quite a number of times and never knew it. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif) Funny thought, that... (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
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America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.
Know how to use Rhino3D? Want to put your ships into Freespace 2? You've come to the right place ("http://www.geocities.com/sandvich/fs2/rhino_fs2/")!
"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://www.geocities.com/sandvich/index.html"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
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Bah, searching for it doesn't count! Bet you didn't know what it was... (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tongue.gif) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
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Oh wait, if computer languages are included...
some Visual Basic
a little bit of C++
a little bit of Mathematica
some NQC (C++ based)
FRED2 (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
That's about it. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tongue.gif) I'm still working on learning more in some of those categories.