Hard Light Productions Forums
Hosted Projects - Standalone => Fate of the Galaxy => Topic started by: Darkhill on February 04, 2007, 03:26:57 pm
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I don't know if you guys have this problem, but something that has plagued IA is Xwings can't hit anything. Its because of the wide spread of the lasers on the model. Have mostly fixed it by adding some code to do auto convergence but its not a perfect solution. Just wondering if this happens to you and found a way to get around it.
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How would you get around it without convergence? Seriously, there's no way. WMCoolmon (I think) put weapon convergence into the SCP some time ago - it will be static, probably set to converge at 500 odd metres.
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Unless your TIE models are bigger then ours you won't hit a ship under 500 meters (at least this is the problem I was having). I was just wondering if you were doing something to your models to get around it (playing with normals or something). Or did SCP ever make changes to how the game handles ship/laser collisions? A cheap way to get around it was to use bounding spheres for collision detection instead of the default way.
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Ha, I just requested an auto convergence feature on the SCP forums today. How extensive is your code? Here's a copy of my request, is it anything like what I described?
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,45201.0.html
Honestly though, those ships not being able to hit anything may just have to be a drawback that has to be dealt with by the pilot. Beef them up in other areas to make them more balanced maybe.
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Link doesn't work for me.
Also, autoconvergence is non cannon for SW - the X Wing books explicitly state that theA Wing is the only fighter with swivelling cannons, and that convergence points for lasers were set before a mission. The static laser convergence we already have should be sufficient.
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Well then, how are those convergences set? I haven't seen a place to edit a static convergence yet.
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I don't know if you guys have this problem, but something that has plagued IA is Xwings can't hit anything. Its because of the wide spread of the lasers on the model. Have mostly fixed it by adding some code to do auto convergence but its not a perfect solution. Just wondering if this happens to you and found a way to get around it.
My suggestion would be to increase the size of shield bubble somewhat. That's how they did it in XvT. There's no convergence, and usually quad linked lasers is the best way to hit the target at least with some of the cannons. But as long as the target has shields, it's not necessary to hit the hull area of the target to reduce the shields. Hitting TIE Fighters is supposed to be difficult.
Obviously if you want XWA-like behaviour, auto-converging lasers are an acceptable solution. I myself would prefer XvT way of things. Usually you can get at least one side of the lasers to hit, full four-laser hits require a target at least as big as the wing span of the X-Wing, and some good aiming of course.
Also, how fast are your craft going? 100 m/s or 100 km/h? In X-Wing games I think their speed is announced in km/h, so the fighters are actually very slow in those games...
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My suggestion would be to increase the size of shield bubble somewhat. That's how they did it in XvT. There's no convergence, and usually quad linked lasers is the best way to hit the target at least with some of the cannons. But as long as the target has shields, it's not necessary to hit the hull area of the target to reduce the shields. Hitting TIE Fighters is supposed to be difficult.
Obviously if you want XWA-like behaviour, auto-converging lasers are an acceptable solution. I myself would prefer XvT way of things. Usually you can get at least one side of the lasers to hit, full four-laser hits require a target at least as big as the wing span of the X-Wing, and some good aiming of course.
Also, how fast are your craft going? 100 m/s or 100 km/h? In X-Wing games I think their speed is announced in km/h, so the fighters are actually very slow in those games...
Well, the fact is Tie Fighters don't have shield so If we want to hit them, we should increase a little the laser radius.
About the craft speed, in X wing vs Tie Fighter, the speed are in mlt/s or something like that but not in 100 km/h nor in meter/s.
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Actually, I recalled wrong. I did a quick test. Took a TF and flew to >3.0 distance from an installation. Then turned and took the time (approximately) it took for the craft to get from 3.0 distance to 1.0 distance. Speed was announced as constant 100 units during the test. Results:
s = approx. 2.0 units (I suppose those are kilometres, judging by the size of the ships)
t = approx. 19 seconds, and because I was using just a simple wrist watch to define the time there may be some inaccuracy.
By these parametres, the craft's speed was
v = s / t = 2.0 units / 19 seconds = 0.105 units per second.
If the distance is indeed announced in kilometres, then the speed of the craft should've been about 105 m/s. Which is well within error bars of the time measurement - I think it's safe to say that the speed indicator in the XvT game announces speed in metres per second. And thereby it's well within borders to directly convert the ship stats from the old game to FS2 metres per seconds.
It might say the speed is something in craft database, but if the empiric test shows something I'd rather trust it.
Here's (http://www.theforce.net/swtc/units.html#propulsion) some interesting stuff about the "MGLT" unit, and some others too.
And yeah, TF's have no shields in which case the solution to increase the shield bubble size won't work...
But I actually think that hitting TF's is supposed to be difficult so it's not automatcally a bad thing if it's hard. That's why the TF can have such weak armour. It can take two good starfighter laser hits in XvT, no more. Grazing shots it can withstand perhaps three.
Just how hard exactly is it to hit the TIE Fighters in an X-Wing? :nervous: Is it like "impossible" or just "takes a lot of practice" type of difficult?
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For one thing people are used to the old games where I think they used bounding boxes for hitzones. A TIE Fighter may have been the hardest to hit but it wasn't that hard. The major complaint with out little multiplayer demo was you can't hit anything when flying the TIE Interceptor. Flying 10 minutes to score one kill between two people is a little unacceptable for me.
Both ships sitting still with convergence of 500m and you'll never hit a ship if your range is less then that. I can be less then 5m from a ship and the lasers will go right around it. In Xwing Alliance some of the ships have an auto convergence feature you can turn on. What it actually does I don't know. Its worth not being quite cannon if it makes the game a little more enjoyable for anybody to play.
The code is less then 20 lines, wouldn't be that many more to do add the nearest hostile to the distance.
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Anyone though about the fact that it would be even more difficult to hit a fighter (or a Nebulon-B Frigate's neck for that matter) with a B-Wing (with the big weapons at the ends of the wings, again.
And yes, it would be hard, not impossible to hit a TIE Fighter with an X-wing. It could be done.
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In Xwing Alliance some of the ships have an auto convergence feature you can turn on. What it actually does I don't know.
It converges the lasers to current distance of the target, but the aim still keeps on the centerline so it doesn't wobble around like the lasers in Trench Run (in the movie)...
Anyway, it does indeed sound a little unacceptable to have such bad chances of hitting as you describe... :blah:
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In Xwing Alliance some of the ships have an auto convergence feature you can turn on. What it actually does I don't know.
It converges the lasers to current distance of the target, but the aim still keeps on the centerline so it doesn't wobble around like the lasers in Trench Run (in the movie)...
Anyway, it does indeed sound a little unacceptable to have such bad chances of hitting as you describe... :blah:
This is what is what my coding change does. The point where they come together is calculated each time a laser is fired. It can look a bit odd if say a craft was 200m away and you fired into empy space, the lasers will cross at 200m.
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I'm all for static convergence myself, considering it is Star Wars canon that this occurs. IIRC most X-Wing pilots set their convergence to about 150-200m Dogfights are very close in SW
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I'm not coming here saying auto convergence is the way to go. But this project has been going on longer then mine has so this issue has to have come up before.
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Though also consider that this mod has practically restarted from scratch
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Yes, most of the original staff are gone, or working on other projects having lost interest hear :(
But supposedly static convergence is already in the engine, but I believe it is set in the POF, unless I read the wiki wrong. I have no idea how to set the normal in the POF, as POF-CS specifically states that there's no need to be able to set it, as there wasn't when it was made. I would at least like to see the convergence being able to be set in the table, if it's not already like that. I could live with static convergence, as long as I can figure out how to use it.
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At least somebody has played around with some Xwing in game? KARMA(?) had a good looking model at one point, anybody but him take it for a combat spin? The problem could just as easily be on my end. Its quite mading to be less then 5m from a ship and have your lasers go right around it.
You can play with weapon normals in Modelview. But as far as I can tell they aren't used anywhere in the game. When the game creates the laser it just uses the forward vector of the firing craft to set the direction they travel.
The thing about static convergence at 200m (or 500) is that it was a common thing to strafe enemy capital ships from near a klick a way in the TIE Fighter games.
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You set the normals in PCS/ modview then you add the flag "gun convergance" IIRC to the table.
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The PCS I'm using doesn't allow setting normals for gun firepoints. It says it's not necessary. I wasn't aware modelview could set normals though, guess I'm still learning it. Dang, this is gonna be one bugger of a calculation to do. 3d math for the lose. I think it would be nicer if there was a table variable we could use instead, and the engine did the calculation, instead of making us calculate a normal for every ship by hand. Then we could also adjust the normals with ease.
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98% you'll never have to worry about this problem. With the TIE Fighter I can bullseye ships at 1000m with little problem. The guns are so close together that convergence is never an issue. Xwing, Bwing, TIE Interceptor, Toscan, and maybe TIE Defender/Advanced. The math actually shouldn't be that bad, my convergence code should get you pretty close. As long as you can normalize a vector you should be alright.
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I just meant that if we wanted to go with a static convergence, vs a dynamic one, it should be able to be set as a distance in the table. I'm thinking something like having a variable called $Convergence Type, which is either default (none), pof, static (defined with another var), or auto. If static, have $Convergence Range, which would be in Freespace units. Auto would follow the rules I defined over in the request forum. I think this would cover almost any situation for any mod.
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I don't know where the "no auto convergance" came from, all I remember about the A-Wing's gun setup is that it had true swiveling guns (and a chin turret added to later versions).
As for static convergance - in XWA you could choose between preset distances for the crafts that had static settings. That could work too.
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XWA had auto-convergence for at least some craft, perhaps even all of them... It worked so that in auto-converge mode, the game took the target's current distance and applied the convergence to that distance, regardless of where the lasers were pointed at.
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in XWA there was auto and manual cannon convergence...you could switch between 0.2, 0,75 and 1,25 in manual mode by pressing y.
It would be cool to switch between several manual convergences and auto c. in SWC!
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These are some of the possibilities I'm looking at right now. I'd like to see as many of them be coded in as possible, to offer the greatest variety to all the mods, not just the SWC. A convergence type variable in the table would accomplish that nicely I think.
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I'd second the convergence as well, mainly because we need it for one of our
craft on the Tachyon mod. It's similar to a tie (the one with 3 wings as a triangle).
As is, it's difficult to shoot much of anything. :doubt:
But yes - there's at least one other mod out there that needs it.
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It needs modifiable convergence? Because static, one distance only convergence already exists. You just have to define the firepoint's normals in Modelview. But even that is tough, and I'd rather see the ability to set static convergences in the table, as a distance instead of defining normals.
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I'm fairly sure the game calculated the convergence based upon the distance to target.
So basically - auto convergence.
We never had a selectable convergence method in tach... and really I doubt we'd want one
cause the dogfights are fast enough that the less you have to worry about pressing - the better.
Realism and X-wings, I can see it cause I used it as well in the games... but it's just not what we need.
Static would work as a temp - and that's one reason I've kept an eye on this thread.
But it's really only a band-aid; when you are constantly moving in and out plus latting in
an oval/circle dance of sorts with your opponent, a static convergence set too close or too far
is going to cost you that fight over and over again.
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Darkhill: You can play with weapon normals in Modelview. But as far as I can tell they aren't used anywhere in the game. When the game creates the laser it just uses the forward vector of the firing craft to set the direction they travel.
Chief1983: You just have to define the firepoint's normals in Modelview. But even that is tough, and I'd rather see the ability to set static convergences in the table, as a distance instead of defining normals.
Caculating the cannon firing vectors for a static XXX meter convergence point from each cannon's (X,Y,Z) firing point to a (X,Y,Z) point out in front of the craft on the centerline... is not difficult math. It's really simple... and I'd be glad to help whomever do it. You could simply set this in the model using Modelview for a default-- or it could probably be added to a table with a simple coding change. If you do the latter, then perhaps it could be a Mission parameter that you're allowed to set before a mission-- just like selecting what missiles you want... you also can choose what fixed convergence point you want. That would seem realistic. Then it would be completely customizable by the player for a mission-- yet fixed to satisfy canon. Right?
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archangel, I was wondering if it would be possible to set it before a mission. That would definitely be a nice feature, and be completely canon, yes.
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Err... guys, we have a perfectly viable convergence system already, and constantly asking for more is probably a really good way to piss off the coders and really, there're a lot more important things they could be doing, even if you're just thinking about this one mod (let alone the dozens of others they're helping out too).
We can set a static convergence on a per ship basis in the pof, something wer couldn't do even twelve months ago. Surely that's enough?
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Yes it is IMO
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It will definitely work for now, but I wasn't thinking this would only be useful for one mod either. I really think other mods could make use of it. Either way, I wouldn't consider any changes to it a high priority or anything. Just a thought for anyone who was bored with whatever more important changes they were making, or for anyone who's partial to our cause :)
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X-wing cannon firing hard-points... not to upset anyone :nervous: , but as you set these to a fixed convergence point in the model file... couldn't you simply set one diagonal bank of cannons to have one fixed convergence point (say short range) and the other diagonal bank to have a longer static convergence point? That would seem a realistic solution if this were a real fighter in a real universe... :nod:
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Maybe you could use this (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,45516.0.html).
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Cool that should save some time. :)
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As I recall, it was never possible to hit a TIE Fighter with all four lasers of an X-Wing in either the games or books. The whole purpose of the lasers spread out like that was to cover a larger target area, increasing the odds of landing any hit. Of course this would only work with extremely rapid fire lasers or in quad mode.
As to the B-Wing: In the original X-Wing game, I would use the Ion cannons set to linked fire, aim the two cannons mounted just beneath the cockpit and let the wing mounted one fire where it will. This could disable a TIE Fighter with one good hit. I can't remember about the XvT B-Wing. Besides, it's not a space superiority fighter anyway, it's designed for pounding on cap ships.
In conclusion, I think that a fixed convergence or even no convergence would work just fine.
P.S. Would it be possible for me to play this demo with the TIE interceptor that can't hit ****?
P.P.S. Does anybody know where to download all or most of the SCP mods?
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We don't really have a demo to hand out yet, although the other SW mod that Darkhill does might still be taking on beta tester. I think that's the one you're referring to anyway. And thanks for the input.
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I'm assuming that my X-Wing was removed from the project, given that it was designed back before the poly limit was increased?
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That was yours? I thought it was an older mod port. Yeah, hopefully we can get a newer high-poly model. Currently I have the Warlords one, because it looks a bit nicer.
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I really have no clue if anyone even has mine anymore. All was was the LOD0, anyway, with skins by KARMA. It was pretty decent, but the polycount was low by modern standards (~1000 or so, I think it was).
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If karma did the skin, then yeah, I think it was yours. The skin reminded me of the texture job on his vette.
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All of the SCP mods? Google Freespace mod... but that will take forever, as you have to sort through broken links and slow servers... :(
Go to the main forum, under hosted projects.
Hmm, me has an idea... :drevil: maybe later I'll upload all my stuff to FileFront (when I get my CAT5 cable hooked up instead of wireless).
BTW, I thought you could hit a TIE with all 4 bolts from an X-wing, you just had to aim dead center, and be either right behind or right in front of it.
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probably, but if you wanna do a hi-poly version and use your old one as lod-1 or something, we could probably totally go for that.
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You can feel free to use it as the LOD1, but I haven't done any 3D modeling in years, and nothing I've done has been as high poly as most of the stuff people have put out lately.
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I'm very much against using a high poly model for LOD0 and a lower poly one done by someone else off of a difference source for LOD1. Really all LODs should be derived from the same base in order to maintain consistency
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All of the SCP mods? Google Freespace mod... but that will take forever, as you have to sort through broken links and slow servers... :(
Thanks dude, that should help.
For clarification, I'm currently interested in the conversion mods. Missions and campaings are already coming out my ears.
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Well then, you've really only got The Babylon Project, Wing Commander Saga, and Beyond the Red Line that have actually released anything. They're all available on either their forums, or their websites, both of which can be reached via the Hosted... link (for TBP and WCS) or the External Sites... link (for BtRL) at the top of the page.