Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: NickM on February 17, 2007, 10:55:15 am
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Guys:
Anyone here with actual knowledge of 'real world' Navies? Am I wrong or doesn't the FS universe kind of stand the Cap ship sizes on their head? IF I'm reading things correctly ( and there's no guarantee that I am!) from smallest to largest are the ships in the game: Cruiser, Corvette, Destroyer....I'm excluding the 'super large' classes of Cap Ship;
Now in 'real life' (at least in the WW2 era) wouldn't a cruiser be the largest ship, with the destroyer & the corvette next in size?
TIA
NickM
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Yes, you are correct. Also, a frigate is the smallest ship in a modern navy, whereas in FS2 the frigate is one of the largest. I guess something changes in the future :)
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Maybe they thought that when they built the Fenris, it was huge, so they called it a Cruiser?
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I'm not totally sure, but this would be the real world classification: Frigate, Corvette, Destroyer, Cruiser, Battlecruiser, Dreadnought, Battleship. Keep in mind that Battlecruisers, Dreadnoughts and Battleships became obsolete after WWII due to the superiority of naval aircrafts (example: 2 of 3 Italians battleships were destroyed by English Swordfish in the Taranto harbour, the Bismarck was almost disabled by a wing of Swordfish, then the attack on Pearl Harbour, and the sinkings of the Tirpitz and the Yamato, all by naval aircrafts).
Obviously, there is always the exception: the US Navy used Iowa-class battleships even during the Gulf War.
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Modern ship class names, like the old ones in WW1 period, are much more closely related to ships perceived mission rather than to their actual size.
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Actually, according to wikipedia, a corvette is smaller then a frigate.
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Yeah, corvettes are normally rather small coastal vessels, if I recall correctly.
Of course, in FS2, they're fighter-killing machines that I never want to be on the wrong side of, especially if it's a Deimos or a Sobek.
Took me a while to get used to the class names, too. When they told me a destroyer jumped in to help me out against a bunch of cruisers, I was ...rather pissed at Command. Until, of course, I looked at the destroyer. Then I was actually quite happy, because I could hide on the other side of it while my wingmen took all the fire for me. =D
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sinkings of the Tirpitz and the Yamato, all by naval aircrafts).
Yamato yes, Tirpitz no. :)
Tirpitz was finally done in by 617 squadron, RAF. :) Yes, the famous Dambusters also did the Tirpitz in. :)
As for FS ship classifications, it always bugged me. After a while I just ignored it.
Hell, even :v: couldn't decide in FS2 when they referred to a Ravana as a cruiser in 'The Lions Den.' :D
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Tirpitz was finally done in by 617 squadron, RAF. :) Yes, the famous Dambusters also did the Tirpitz in. :)
After it had already been hit multiple times and disabled by Blackburn Skuas of various Fleet Air Arm squadrons...
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Agreed - but the killing blow was by the RAF. :)
Still, a 12,000lb bomb is going to hurt pretty much anything. Hitting Tirpitz from 20,000 feet was an achievement. :)
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Volition just used the coolest names possible for ships. A 'destroyer' sounds tougher than a 'cruiser'. Ergo, the big ships become destroyers.
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sinkings of the Tirpitz and the Yamato, all by naval aircrafts).
Yamato yes, Tirpitz no. :)
Tirpitz was finally done in by 617 squadron, RAF. :) Yes, the famous Dambusters also did the Tirpitz in. :)
I just checked, you're right: 29 Lancasters armed with Blockbuster bombs finished the Tirpitz. :)
Actually also the Bismarck wasn't sunk by Swordfish, but by another ship (King George V? Or some other ship? I can't remember now :nervous:)
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IIRC it was Swordfish-launched torpedoes that crippled the Bismarck rudder and set it up for the killing shots, though.
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In my previous post I wrote "almost disabled", but it wasn't sunk by Swordfish :)
(Off-topic question: how do I make the plural of a word ending with -sh? :confused:)
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'-sh' words in plural end with -es.
(ie. ashes, flashes)
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'Squadron' ;)
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Squadron?
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If you want more than one Swordfish, it's a Swordfish Squadron ;)
Edit : At least as far as the planes are concerned.
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Still, it's still something you should know.
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In terms of general size...
Sentry Gun
Fighter
Support Ship
Cargo
Bomber
Transport
Freighter
Cruiser
(Battlecruiser)
Miner
(Monitor)
Corvette
(Attack Frigate)
Frigate
Destroyer
(Carrier)
(Superdestroyer)
(Dreadnaught)
(Supercarrier)
Juggernaut
(Superjuggernaut)
That should give you the general idea... there are a few other unoffical ship classes too that might not be used currently.
EDIT 1: Added Dreadnaught between Superdestroyer and Supercarrier.
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Don't forget Dreadnaught which is slightly smaller than a Supercarrier.
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I'd definately reclassify some stuff...
Change the Levithan to Battlecruiser.
Change the Iceni to Attack Frigate.
Change the Athena to Fighter.
A few others, too...
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The Iceni was a command frigate technically, but it could be classed as an attack frigate.
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It's fast, it has alright armour, and it has a single side for anti-cap weapons... it's an attack frigate.
The point is that the Iceni can't defend itself from all sides; a characteristic I consider necessary to be a general-use ship or a defensive ship. It is, thus, an attack ship.
Still, it's a good ship for the size, speed, armour, and commander.
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Technically, I said.
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I thought the general concept of "Dreadnaught" was "Destroyer without fighterbay"?
Though arguably that's what the Iceni is.
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The Iceni is smaller than a destroyer though. Still.
Perhaps it is.... Either or.
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Yep...
Still, the Iceni is called a Frigate; I simply classified it a bit more specifically; an attack frigate. It's faster and has weaponry concentrated toward a single area (one side).
The Iceni as a Dreadnought is very far fetched; other then the amount of armour it has, it shares nearly nothing in common with a destroyer. It is over twice as fast (35m/s iirc) and is a fraction the size (800m iirc). It's definately not a dreadnought by your definition.
I'll personally be using the Monitor.
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Yep...
Still, the Iceni is called a Frigate; I simply classified it a bit more specifically; an attack frigate. It's faster and has weaponry concentrated toward a single area (one side).
The Iceni as a Dreadnought is very far fetched; other then the amount of armour it has, it shares nearly nothing in common with a destroyer. It is over twice as fast (35m/s iirc) and is a fraction the size (800m iirc). It's definately not a dreadnought by your definition.
I'll personally be using the Monitor.
It's Dreadnought.
Dreadnought was simply a modernized battleship - instead of variable armament it had the same-caliber main batteries ("all big gun"), making it far more efficient than previous battleship models which sported many different calibers and gun types. The thing about Dreadnought is that it made all other battleship classes pretty obsolete overnight. After HMS Dreadnought was introduced in 1905 all battleship construction switched to ships of similar type. Iowas, Yamatos and so on are actually dreadnoughts, but nowadays the term is interchangable with the term "battleship". HMS Dreadnought was also fast and well-armoured, as well as being bigger and far more modern vessel than previous battleship types.
In science fiction, however, dreadnought is pretty commonly used to describe a certain type of vessel, a really big battleship which does not usually house a fighter bay.
A compact warship with less tonnage than a battleship but which is far more potent than a cruiser is a battlecruiser. They are described as either "upscaled cruisers" or "downscaled BBs", whatever suits you.
Of course, none of these traditions really mean jack **** when you can make up your own rules and pull history out of your ass, and in FS universe the entire naming convention is a huge mess anyways..
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The Iceni is smaller than a destroyer though. Still.
Well, that's rather the point. If you take off the fighterbay and the ordinance storage and all that other stuff needed to operate fighters, the destroyer would shrink.
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I think the idea is that you replace all that stuff with armor, weapons, and power supply.
Otherwise you don't have a dreadnought, you have an anemic carrier.
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Not if the shrunken destroyer was an Orion, which seems to be the whole thing behind the Iceni; it has 3 BGreens. Then you have the anticapital corvette of doom.
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The Iceni as a Dreadnought is very far fetched; other then the amount of armour it has, it shares nearly nothing in common with a destroyer. It is over twice as fast (35m/s iirc) and is a fraction the size (800m iirc). It's definately not a dreadnought by your definition.
35/mps is correct, although according to the wiki the Iceni was 998 m long, just a hair shy of a kilometer long warship.
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Not if the shrunken destroyer was an Orion, which seems to be the whole thing behind the Iceni; it has 3 BGreens. Then you have the anticapital corvette of doom.
It is a bit weak in anti-fighter guns. Basically it could have been the GTVA's answer to the Lillith: An extremely fast, well armed and armored anti-capship frigate.
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It was built for speed, for durability, and for the best broadsiding in the game! For its size, it's much better at a broadside then even the Big C.
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In science fiction, however, dreadnought is pretty commonly used to describe a certain type of vessel, a really big battleship which does not usually house a fighter bay.
A compact warship with less tonnage than a battleship but which is far more potent than a cruiser is a battlecruiser. They are described as either "upscaled cruisers" or "downscaled BBs", whatever suits you.
Of course, none of these traditions really mean jack **** when you can make up your own rules and pull history out of your ass, and in FS universe the entire naming convention is a huge mess anyways..
I allways got the impression that in sci-fi a dreadnought is usually a big-ass ship with a single uber-weapon (think Homeworld 2 dreadnought), while a battleship is an equally big ship, but with lot's of "smaller" guns.
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I allways got the impression that in sci-fi a dreadnought is usually a big-ass ship with a single uber-weapon (think Homeworld 2 dreadnought), while a battleship is an equally big ship, but with lot's of "smaller" guns.
Depends, but most sci-fi conventions use "überweapons" as a plot devices anyways and like to use them if possible. It doesn't really matter if a dreadnought sports a superweapon or not, in scifi it's usually a "big-ass battleship with a lots of gun (maybe a superweapon too)". (There are, of course, differences..) Does it have shields or not, does it have a rail particle beam tachyon cannon or not - pretty irrelevant to the point at hand.
One should also remember that in real-life history the single-caliber main armament + advanced FCS of a dreadnought-type battleship was a really potent weapon and made other types pretty much obsolete overnight, so a supergun-armed capital ship is not that distant idea anyways!
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I allways got the impression that in sci-fi a dreadnought is usually a big-ass ship with a single uber-weapon (think Homeworld 2 dreadnought), while a battleship is an equally big ship, but with lot's of "smaller" guns.
Then I guess Strattcomm's Archangel suits the class perfectly.
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I always thought dreadnoughts were command ships an the flagships of fleets, and had lots of money wasted on fancy weapons and armor, and never get deployed for combat.
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I see Supercarriers fill that role more, with Dreadnaughts doing the heavy fighting.
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If you want something more like proper ship class usage from terran traditions, take a look at the Honor Harrington series. BBs are not only smaller, but older than dreadnoughts in it, and typically aren't used if they don't have to be because they just don't pack the kind of wallop that dreadnoughts do.
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I allways got the impression that in sci-fi a dreadnought is usually a big-ass ship with a single uber-weapon (think Homeworld 2 dreadnought), while a battleship is an equally big ship, but with lot's of "smaller" guns.
Then I guess Strattcomm's Archangel suits the class perfectly.
The one built around a HUUUGE big-ass (blue) beam cannon? Yes, that would be a perfect dreadnought. My Archy is a textbook example of a BB on the other hand :D