Hard Light Productions Forums
Hosted Projects - Standalone => Wing Commander Saga => Topic started by: Sphynx on February 23, 2007, 07:59:34 pm
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Several people have expressed an interest in a mission editor for Wing Commander Saga. As a response to that interest, we encourage those who want to create misisons to download both the mission editor and the original FS2 FRED tutorial to help any who are interested in learning how to use it. You can get them at http://www.wcsaga.com/downloads/prologue/FRED.rar and http://www.wcsaga.com/downloads/prologue/freddocs.rar.
We would be happy to host any fully-functioning custom missions that anyone creates for Saga to be shared with the whole community, so unleash your creativity and let us see what you can make!
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Thanks Sphinx ! But how easy is this to use.....need you be a programmer-techie type to use it effectively ???
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The walthrough is pretty well made. After you've done that (and I really recommend doing that) you should be able to do a few small missions without too many problems.
The rest depends on the size of your project of course.
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While it looks first a little overwhelming, it's just a matter of experience and time you spend into it.
Place ships, give them starting orders and make a few event scripts. Those are also quite self explainary (spell ?) , you don't need any real programming knowledge for them and you can select the script parts from a huge list (you don't have to type or develop them on your own)
Easy Example :
when
---Ship X has been destroyed
--then
-----send message Y
That's not 100% like it looks in Fred (there is no "then") but you get the idea.
Of course you can make quite complex event scripts after you get used to it. You just need to start and try it out :)
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I'm not a programmer, but I've managed to make a few small missions. Maybe I'll try to refine a few and submit a few of my own. Trial and error, you know. I'd say give it a shot. :)
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Cool !
So could you program a Fleet Action / Battle with this FRED that you speak of ? (What does FRED stand for anyways ?)
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What I'm imagining is something like:
Terran Heavy Carrier
2 Terran Cruisers
2 Terran Destroyers
1 Frigate
4 Corvettes
12 Arrows
12 Hellcats
6 Thunderbolts
6 Longbows
VS.
3 Kilrathi Cruisers
5 Kilrathi Destroyers
(Waves of Fighters)
1st Wave - 8 Gothris , 4 Darkets
2nd Wave - 8 Dralthis, 4 Vaktoth
3rd Wave - 4 Gothris, 4 Dralthis
4th Wave - 8 Gothris, 8 Dralthis
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Cool !
So could you program a Fleet Action / Battle with this FRED that you speak of ? (What does FRED stand for anyways ?)
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What I'm imagining is something like:
Terran Heavy Carrier
2 Terran Cruisers
2 Terran Destroyers
1 Frigate
4 Corvettes
12 Arrows
12 Hellcats
6 Thunderbolts
6 Longbows
VS.
3 Kilrathi Cruisers
5 Kilrathi Destroyers
(Waves of Fighters)
1st Wave - 8 Gothris , 4 Darkets
2nd Wave - 8 Dralthis, 4 Vaktoth
3rd Wave - 4 Gothris, 4 Dralthis
4th Wave - 8 Gothris, 8 Dralthis
Sounds possible.
And FRED stands for FReespace EDitor, IIRC.
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It's doable but it's close to what is known as Battle of Endor syndrome where you make huge battles that look cool but are largely pointless to play because the player has no effect on the outcome of the battle.
There are ways to make big battles without falling victim to this but it's not an easy task.
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Hehehe, you got here first. I was just about to mention the Battle of Endor syndrome ;)
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It would be difficult to balance, but you could do it. Even if it did end up just as a Battle of Endor situation, if you want to, you can (although I think we find that missions are more fun when you can create them in such a way that the player can have the impact that decides which way the battle turns). And AlexTrev, I think you yourself could put together a rudimentary mission like this after only a short while of learning to use FRED, but of course greater experiences will bring greater refinement to your missions. You can also ask around for FRED help on these forums.
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Wow - sounds very fun / interesting to experiment with ...what is the link to get "Fred" and how do you get it to interface with SAGA (seeing as it is TECHNICALLY not "Freespace" exactly...right ?)
Also - on Battle of Endor concept - that's cool there is such a term - I've always loved the Battle of Endor scenes in ROTJ.
I would think that you WOULD (the player) have an impact on a fleet battle like that, in much the same way you have an impact on the "DEFEND THE TICONDEROGA" simulator mission in SAGA's Prologue. . .
There are many friendly cap-ships and allied fighters there to assist you - but the waves of Kilrathi and their capital ships make that an extremely tough mission to manage (to survive and defend the carrier I mean).
As long as the battle I proposed had a similiar (overall) objective like - Defend your Heavy Carrier against all attacks while providing support to the other Confed Cap Ships in the fleet when possible - well....that sounds like a battle in which your (Human Player) skills would be very essential and helpful to the mission success / failure ? - Right ?
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granted that you have authority over some or all the allied fighter wings. when, like in the prologue, you play the rookie of the wing, you can't tell others what to do (which was annoying at first as i was kinda used to the fact that i could say what everyone was doing) then again, when you can issue orders to other fighter wings/ induvidual fighters, your impact is largers as you can try to cripple the enemy capship engines and weapons while using other wings to cover you and protect your capships from enemy fighters.
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Good points, Vash. If you add in control of the allied wings, it adds more doability.
@ AlexTrev. You can get FRED from the links at the beginning of this thread.
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The larger a battle gets the harder it becomes to make the players effect on the battle meaningful. To give an extreme example if you could have a mission with a million fighters would it matter in the slightest if the player killed 50 fighters instead of 100?
Okay killing those fighters could have a knock on effect but how hard would it be to balance the mission so that the knock on effect mattered?
That's the basic problem that is faced by Endorian missions. You have to balance the mission so that the mission isn't always fail or always succeed or else the player might as well not be there.
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Well....my one counter to that (suceed-fail) type of argument is that TECHNICALLY - MANY of the missions you are assigned in some Wing games are considerably....NON-vital to the War Effort (on a grand scheme of things) - and even from a "just your carrier" perspective they aren't 100% critical..... you figure the old 4-point patrol they have you fly in probably 30-missions from Wing-I to Wing Prophecy....there are many times you could simply hit the Nav Points....not engage the enemies (just afterburn away from them, then Autopilot when you were at valid A-Pilot range away from them)....and land on the carrier, having "hit" all the Nav Points.
Sure you didn't engage anyone...but that is part of the War too ....in other words, the player should not feel (I would think) like he must destroy an enemy armada each mission to feel he's "Making a difference" in the War or in the day-to-day operations of his Carrier ?
Similiarly, in a large-scale Fleet Action ...if a player (in the mission with numbers like I mentioned earlier) against a large enemy fleet (plus many enemy fighter-wings) ....I would think ANY kills that you are able to score are helpful to your forces.... it's almost ALWAYS going to be the case that a skilled Human Flyer is going to perform "better" on some level than the computer-controlled ships, friendly OR enemy.
So if your allied fighter pilots are capable of shooting down 5-enemy fighters in the course of a battle....you, as the actual Human Player, should be able to do at least around that number YOURSELF (at least that's how it is in most Wing games) - so in those cases I'd say your (Human) impact is QUITE important / helpful - etc.
I mean....if you were in a T-Bolt in that mission I proposed....and could give orders to the other wings (that's a big part of strategy in something like that) - it would be awesome to order Delta Wing Bombers to "torpedo that Destroyer !" - while you tell the Arrow's in the fight to "Cover Delta Wing's attack run !" - MEANWHILE - you and your flight of 4-Tbolts gets a message from your allied Cruiser 5000-klicks to starboard saying they have numerous Gothri's locking torpedoes on them and need immediate assistance from your fighters !
You afterburn over and engage the Gothris while bolts of enemy AMG and turret fire fly between your cruiser and the enemy capital ship that has pulled into gun-range of your carrier group !
As you blast the last Gothri to dust....another Kilrathi destroyer pulls into range and adds its fire into your beleaugured Cruisers shields....! Delta wing radios back "Enemy Destroyer is down sir !" - and you quickly order the surving Longbows to fly over and attack this NEW Destroyer that's just moved in...
Suddenly another radio message comes from your Heavy Carrier at the center of the formation....they've taken several direct hits from enemy torpedos and are in need of some support as another Kilrathi cruiser is moving into range and engaging them ! - your Allied frigate responds that they will do a 360-degree turn and move to intercept / block the incoming Cruisers arc of fire from hitting your carrier to buy it some time...
They are badly damaged and probably won't survive the exchange of heavy guns, they admit, but they'll do their best to buy the carrier some precious minutes to stabilize her shields and maneuver to bring her stronger shield arcs to point towards the incoming enemy capship !
"Mayday mayday !" - one of your Corvettes calls out as it disintegrates from concentrated Vaktoth and Gothri fire !
The explosion has just died down and is replaced by another one...this time the second enemy Destroyer you ordered Delta wing to attack ! KA-BOOM! it is ripped apart by multiple torpedo hits !
Your surviving fighters pull inwards to pick off the other Cat ships.....and your 2 Cruisers turn on an intercept course against the enemy Cruiser that is heading towards your carrier !
"That's it for us boys....Good luck and godspeed !" - is the last message from your noble Frigate which explodes catastrophically from multiple torpedo and AMG hits from the onrushing Cruiser !
Vowing to finish the enemy capital ship, you throttle your fighter towards it and lock your torpedo on, along with the rest of your wing "ATTACK MY TARGET !"
The combined Torpedo strikes from your fighters, plus the mighty guns of your own cruisers are enough to blast the enemy warship into space dust, though it suceeds in taking down your already damaged Terran cruiser with its final torpedo salvo...
"Great work battle-group....now finish these last enemy fighters and we can get the hell out of this system..." - your carrier radios...
You pick off the final few surviving Cat fighters, while a few of the Light Fighters, perhaps wiser, pull back and return towards their own carrier, far away ...to report the battle results and perhaps prepare for another strike ...
Your mission is over....
Surviving the frantic engagement you have:
1 30%-Hull Heavy Carrier
1 45%-Hull Terran Cruiser
1 22%-Hull Terran Destroyer
1 53%-Hull Terran Destroyer
3 Corvettes (of various badly damage hull-%'s)
5 Arrows
2 Longbows
3 T-Bolts
5 Hellcats
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You've taken some heavy losses...but you survived the massive battle...and your command carrier is intact !
Congratulations on a fantastic effort pilots !
You guys can't tell me that a mission like that would not be DANG-cool ! :D
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Well....my one counter to that (suceed-fail) type of argument is that TECHNICALLY - MANY of the missions you are assigned in some Wing games are considerably....NON-vital to the War Effort (on a grand scheme of things) - and even from a "just your carrier" perspective they aren't 100% critical..... you figure the old 4-point patrol they have you fly in probably 30-missions from Wing-I to Wing Prophecy....there are many times you could simply hit the Nav Points....not engage the enemies (just afterburn away from them, then Autopilot when you were at valid A-Pilot range away from them)....and land on the carrier, having "hit" all the Nav Points.
Sure you didn't engage anyone...but that is part of the War too ....in other words, the player should not feel (I would think) like he must destroy an enemy armada each mission to feel he's "Making a difference" in the War or in the day-to-day operations of his Carrier ?
Well here we just get into a discussion of FREDding style. I personally consider a mission where you can autopilot away from the enemy having never fought a single ship without suffering any penalty to be deeply flawed at best. In a real war if you did that you'd be spending a couple of weeks peeling potatoes at least for dereliction of duty as that sort of mission performance is basically borderline cowardice and whether or not it helps the war effort I doubt any such pilot would be fully trusted by his CO for a long time.
You guys can't tell me that a mission like that would not be DANG-cool ! :D
I'm not saying that it wouldn't be cool. What I'm telling you is that you have to appreciate the difficulties in putting together an Endorian mission. I have over 5 years experience of FREDding missions and although I don't like to come off as arrogant I don't think it's immodest to say I have a reputation as one of the better FREDders in the community. So when I say that just thinking about putting together a mission like that gives me the cold sweats I think you should pay attention. :)
The way you've described things happening is fun but what happens if the player deviates from the plan you have laid out for how you want the mission to go? One of the first things any FREDder needs to learn is that players do not always do what you expected them to do. They frequently disable ships that you thought they would destroy, they spend 5 minutes chasing after a ship you thought they'd leave to a wingman and blow the entire mission because of it. They blunder into enemy fire and spend the entire mission on 1% hull timidly avoiding anything that looks dangerous.
Now I'll freely admit that I'm very anal when it comes to dealing with things where the player can break the mission and I spend hours adding code for stuff that it is likely only one or two people will ever do but even sticking to the easy stuff I can poke quite a few holes in that mission design.
1) What happens if the Gothris and their escorts destroy Delta wing straight away?
2) What happesn if you keep delta wing back and deal with the Gothris yourself so that delta wing can engage the other Kilrathi capships immediately rather than having to turn around and fly back?
3) What happens if the player disables the Kilrathi capships before they are in range of the fleet?
4) What happens if the player disables the torpedo launchers himself before going to deal with the Gothris?
Hell if you FRED the mission I could spend hours finding new holes that would need to be plugged. :)
Believe me I'm not having a go at you or saying that you can't make Endorian missions. The point I'm trying to make isn't that they aren't fun. It's that they are a lot of hard work to make work correctly. The more ships you put into a mission the more chance there is that a player will screw up in some way and take the entire mission in a direction it wasn't intended to go. This sort of thing happens to all mission designers. A very good example is the last mission of FS2. It's actually possible to prevent the mission ending simply by disabling rather than destroying a certain enemy capship because no one in Volition ever thought that anyone would do that.
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Wow - that's kind of funny (the FS-2 ending thing - can you provide more detail for me since I never played it ?)
Also - I see your point about fredding - it's quite a chore to program stuff apparently - this gives me an appreciation for the work you guys have done on SAGA even more than I had before... :-)
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One of the first things any FREDder needs to learn is that players do not always do what you expected them to do. They frequently disable ships that you thought they would destroy,
When I read this, I immediately knew you were going to say this:
A very good example is the last mission of FS2. It's actually possible to prevent the mission ending simply by disabling rather than destroying a certain enemy capship because no one in Volition ever thought that anyone would do that.
Everyone ****s up sometime. Even :v:. :)
Wow - that's kind of funny (the FS-2 ending thing - can you provide more detail for me since I never played it ?)
You Saved Capella! (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,450.0.html)
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FRED is one of those things that you can learn in a few days but which even after a few years you'll still be learning and trying new things. :)
Don't let that discourage you from trying it though. If you start out with smaller missions like in the Prologue you'll probably find you can crank out good missions very quickly. FRED is quite easy to use. It's just that what you were suggesting was very complicated. :)
Everyone ****s up sometime. Even :v:. :)
Yeah. I figure it's best to point that out before people start deliberately trying to poke holes in my missions in revenge :D
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Yeah. I figure it's best to point that out before people start deliberately trying to poke holes in my missions in revenge :D
As long as it's done in the name of "playtesting," it's ok, right? :nervous: ;)
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in my opinion it's not FRED itself that is too difficult. only the making of events is hard at first. then again, im like my best friend. i never read a manual. i just start out as hard as possible, find out that it's very difficult and than start over just as long until i get something right (still haven't succeded yet but i have hope)
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but you should - the fred manual will teach you how to plan a mission correctly!
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I like that name. "Battle of Endor Syndrome" If you think about it, in all actuallity, it is kind of far fectched that a single fighter would have a major effect on the battle anyway, though true it is more fun that way ;). Though I guess there is a time for it though, such as, you are mostly focusing on storyline and ending/beginning your campaign with a bang like a starwars movie to envlop the player in the total massivness an actual confilct. I don't know if you have ever seen lines and troopmovments in actual battles, but an awful lot goes on all over a huge expanse. Sometimes it might be in a campaign's best interest to bring that across to give the player the feeling, that yes he/she (Who am I kidding? :D HE!) can be god, but give the impression that they are indeed part of something bigger. Afterall, storyline can be just as important as gameplay. I guess we are all familiar with the Halo 2 Syndrome :D Though the reverse can easily be true too. I guess what I'm suggesting is the ballance between the two.
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There's a difference between having a major effect and having any effect at all though. :) It's a rather subtle problem though and it's quite hard to see until you've played a lot of BoE missions or tried making one yourself.
Perhaps I should stop warning of the problems and let people find them for themselves. It only takes a few hours\days for most people to make their first missions in FRED and the experience they'll gain doing it will be useful later on even if the mission does turn out to have flaws :)
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well i like the name too :)
the funny thing is than in battle of Endor one fighter made a HUGE difference (ya know, thaa A-Wing that crushed into Executors' bridge :p)
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after constant fire from all the rebel ships finnaly nocked out the sheilds
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While this camikaze (spell?) action was one of my favourite scenes (the actor really played great in that part) does anyone else find it strange that a ship of that enourmous size got out of control and crashed because it's bridge was toasted ? That's something I always disliked in in SciFi Games (escpecially WCP :nervous: )
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I think that their are surely backup systems for the case that the bridge is taken out...exept the empire thought that this would never happen ^_^
Still we don't know how fast a backup system would jump in and take over the controle if the bridge is taken out. Then the DS might generate quite a gravimateric pull.
Well whatever its all speculation but a fighter/bomber taking out specific areas can be a vital point in battle. Like when they take out the engines, turrets or shield generators...stuff like that...to open up a chance for bigger ships or bombers to do the kill.
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I think that their are surely backup systems for the case that the bridge is taken out...exept the empire thought that this would never happen ^_^
Still we don't know how fast a backup system would jump in and take over the controle if the bridge is taken out. Then the DS might generate quite a gravimateric pull.
Well whatever its all speculation but a fighter/bomber taking out specific areas can be a vital point in battle. Like when they take out the engines, turrets or shield generators...stuff like that...to open up a chance for bigger ships or bombers to do the kill.
Several of the EU books (X-Wing series comes to mind) mention a backup bridge on almost all larger ships.
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speaking of bridges.....
It would be better to place the bridge inside the ship and not in an outer part, because in space you can't see a thing when looking out the window. And it would be better in order not to get blown away by kamikazes or something else that destroys the outer hull first.
Does anyone know Perry Rhodan? They have those spaceships built as spheres with the bridge deep inside the ship. That makes sense.
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Or like the new BSG where the CIC is also inside the ship. Strangly WC CIC is also inside the ship...still the bridge is "outside" and more vonurable.
As for Perry Rhodan...I have seen these ships. Indeed it makes more sense but does it look good? ^_^
Beside that Borg cubes are also usefull in that way. No wasted room...what you most likely have in a sphere.
Still when it comes to spaceship designs it all about style und fun and not if its practical or usefull.
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I was wondering if there is somewhere a more "extensive" document on how to create missions for wc saga with fred
I downloaded fred and it doesn't say anything about how to get it running...do i need the to place it in saga directory or what?
Also, i it looks a little bit complicated to start with......i am used to make missions in warcraft and a few other games....but here there is no manual or any clue what to do...some things are easy and obvious, others are :confused:
is there a thread or a forum where it explains a little. Thanks for any info in advance.
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Hmmmmm. Information on how to do stuff with FRED. Now who would have a thing like that comprising about half of their FAQ? ;)
Seriously though getting started with FRED is as simple as sticking it in the WCS folder. When you run it it will then give you a pop up explaining how to make the shortcut you need to run it in HTL mode.
After that (if the WCS boys have any sense) you'll be able to go to the help menu and call up the FS2 FRED walkthrough. You may be able to make the mission it describes using WCS ships but even if you can't that walkthrough will teach you almost everything you need to know to start making missions. If they haven't included the FREDdocs you can get them from my FAQ.
If you have any questions about how to do stuff once you've read the games help come and ask. We're all quite friendly here. :)
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(if the WCS boys have any sense)
Looks like we didn't had any :) In the release Fred wasn't included, so no documentation either. But that's why we made this news here, it's linked in the first post.
But like Kara said, everyone having questions come here or in the other forums, there is lot of stuff, tutorials and friendly (newbie approved) people around here that can help :)
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The FRED forum for instance is a goldmine of useful info. And I will point out again that most of my FAQ is largely relevant to WCS as well as FS2. :)
I was including the stuff from the first post in my estimation of your intelligence. I just couldn't be bothered to go back and check. :D
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On the Executor commentary - yes...they do have a backup bridge / engine-room etc. onboard the command-ship.....BUT....as one of you noted earlier, the fact is...the impact, explosion, and loss of helm control / engines / etc. happened so suddenly - that there was ...what...1-minute ? - mabye less ? - for the crew to react and do anything...and they were in the midst of being peppered from heavy fire from all surviving Rebel capital ships (I think the Rebs had 2 Mon-Cal Cruisers still left at that point, plus several frigates and light cruisers, and several hundred fighter craft too - so Executor, mighty though she was, was really getting the crap kicked out of her).
And the key as to "why does it sink down ?" - is, as someone said, that the Death Star's gravity was so intense, it rapidly pulled the massive ship into it - remember the DS-II was even LARGER than the 1st Death Star - I think the canon-numbers listed for DS-II are 160,000 Km - across (total circumference) - that's appx. the size of the state of Ohio in the USA. So look at a map of US...look at Ohio...and imagine a big globe / circle laying completely over the state and coming off the sides of its borders by a bit. That's how big the man-made Death Star II was !!!!!! :eek2:
So the gravity for that thing, was quite monstrous - esp. when the Executor was in such close-orbit of the station to begin with - it didn't really have far to "fall" before impact and complete destruction.
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From what I remeber the Executor was so close that it was nearly under its own length in distance.
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My theory about the Executor was that the destruction of the bridge affected the engine controls so that they suddenly went to a full burn powering it in to the death star with no time for the crew in the backup bridge to do anything about it.
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Exactly. They probably had the ship putting off some thrust simply to keep "above" the Death Star ....since the primary controls for the Engines, Weapons, Helm, Shields, Comm, etc. are all on the primary bridge (which on the Executor was a massive room bigger even than the ones shown on the Vesuvius and Thrakkath's flagship, the Dreadnought Hvar'Kann).
So when that all got blown to bits ....as Gev-Lars points out, they were SO close to start, that the pull of DS-II dragged them down almost instantly, just like you see in "real time" on-screen as you watch the film.
In any case, that whole Endor thing was one of the coolest "sequences" in all of Sci-Fi. Now if only the Prequels could have been....................... :P
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Well the battle above Curussant was also nice but to short.