Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Nuclear1 on March 10, 2007, 09:04:23 pm
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http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=7734529&sc=emaf
Or more specifically: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=7678874
"[Putin] is like millions of Russians who have nostalgia for the crazy and bankrupt and corrupted Soviet Union, and who don't like freedom and democracy and don't understand the meaning of it," Nemtsov says.
The president has abolished the election of regional governors. Parliament is now dominated by a pro-Putin majority that speeds through Kremlin-issued legislation, often too quickly for deputies even to read new bills.
Ryzhkov compares the Russian parliament to the toothless Soviet legislature under former leader Leonid Brezhnev, and says the country is "losing the battle for democracy."
"Internet use is simply too small to affect the public's consciousness," Ponomaryov says. "It's the television channels that program how the population thinks, and they're once again under state control."
What the hell is wrong with politicians? Is there something about "freedom" or "political rights" that they just don't like?
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What the hell is wrong with politicians? Is there something about "freedom" or "political rights" that they just don't like?
Yes, it's the idea that people rule and think for themselves. "Freedom" means that people don't necessarily have to do what they are told. Not a real appetizing thought for a control-oriented government. "Political rights" grant people the ability to get rid of politicians they don't like. That makes it a lot harder for politicians to do whatever they want to whoever they like, a constant temptation for people in power. Just look at things in the US. The citizens are starting to get really sick of the current administration's politics of strong-arming, cover-ups, and outright immorality. Now they are starting to take a stand. Not something you want, when you want people to just do as they are told.
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To be fair, Russia is under no obligation to anyone to follow the One True Path of Western-style democracy. This isn't America we're talking about here, they have no history of personal freedom and democratic values. Don't get me wrong, i like democracy and free speech, and I would be pissed if someone tried to curb them in Canada, but I don't presume to tell other people what their priorities should be. If Russia chooses to take an ever-so-slightly different direction, it's their choice.
When Putin came to power, Russia was in a serious financial crisis, the state and the military were rotting, everything had been bought up/stolen by corrupt businessmen and so on. If the boat is sinking, which it was, I can't blame anyone for focusing on stability over a relative luxury such as adhering to the exacting standards of self-righteous Westerners. I never heard any complaints during the 90s when Russia was starving, when billionares bought up state industries for pennies while the people stood in bread lines. When Yeltsin literally bought his re-election and was welcomed with open arms into the bosom of the West. I don't think it takes a conpiracy theorist to note the obvious: when Russia is on it's knees, the West loves them. But when they get up and start getting their act together, suddenly it's Stalin all over again.
The way I hear it, there are a few main complains, and none of them have much substance:
1. Putin imprisoned Khodorkovsky and put Yukos under state control...well, tough ****. Everything Khodorkovsky had was stolen, embezzled from the state in the 90s. If anything, the US should look to Russia for an example in the treatment of corporate criminals. Send the ****ers to Siberia, instead of treating them like royalty. Too bad Berezovsky and Abramovitch got away.
Anyway, it is not at all unusual that a state should have control over its own natural resources.
2. Canceled the election of regional governers....but as Putin pointed out, this is hardly a hallmark of democratic credentials. India for example doesn't (AFAIK) elect regional governors, and yet no one goes hating on them.
I know it sounds like I have a raging hard-on for Vladimir Vladimirovich, which is only partially true, but if there's one thing I can't stand it's the arrogant and self-righteous telling everyone else that they don't measure up to the Golden Standard of the West. As if deviating one centimeter from the Western model makes a nation corrupt and evil.
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in mothor russia, the politicians vote for you :D
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To be fair, Russia is under no obligation to anyone to follow the One True Path of Western-style democracy.
in which america seems hell bent on applying to everybody they can find like spanish catholics. :rolleyes:
(no offense to any decent americans here)
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(no offense to any decent americans here)
What about Spanish Catholics!?
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". Don't get me wrong, i like democracy "
how do you know you live in canada..
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(no offense to any decent americans here)
What about Spanish Catholics!?
i dunno, i feel like insulting cortez and his ilk through the ages. :p
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http://chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3709
:nervous:
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Well, what did democracy bring them anyhow? As soon as the USSR disintegrated and turned to capitalism, Russia's fortunes have only gone straight downward.
The economy has been ill prepared for the sudden switch to a global capitalist economy after communism, they can no longer pay workers what they used to under the communist system (no more drawing from the state), the state no longer provides workers with the basic necessities of life, and so the standard of living in Russia has plummeted from what it used to be.
So its no wonder theyre forgetting how they suffered under the totalitarian Soviet state...because they had food to eat then, and medicine, and basic housing.
What can you do? It's the same reason people grow coca in Colombia...if you and your children are starving, such lofty ideals seem a lot harder to maintain.
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the people get the government they deserve
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Crazy_Ivan80 said
the people get the government they deserve
That's the ultimate truth.
Rictor, the problem with Russia is not the human rights inside it. I have pretty much given up hope with that. If they really wanted change it would have happened a long time ago. It is the tendency of that particular nation (by no ways poor) to take the discussion of these things outside of their own borders. It was even before communism. And also, the current situation regarding medicine, food and travelling in Russia doesn't seem too different from the time of communism, if I can believe anything from what I have heard. Corruption is the culture and economy of that country, regardless of who does it.
Mika
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It should be pointed out that Russia has virtually NO history of democratic government since, well, the beginning of time. None. It does not come as any surprise to me that it just doesn't fit.
Russians like having a single strong leader. Voting for them was never a priority, likely never will be.
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I think part of the problem is that we are nearing the Pivot in the see-saw. Most countries are quite glad to have one leader to claim all the glory, because it also gives you someone specific to blame when things go to crap, there a nice healthy revolt, and the cycle starts over. We like having people to blame.
The problem is we are nearing the stage of technology now where, if we are unhappy with what our leaders are doing, the option of anything other than a coup by the military is almost impossible, I wonder where our own armed forces would stand with regards to using their weapons on civilians. I would like to think that they would hold their triggers, but I have things like Bloody Sunday to prove me wrong.
That was what Democracy was supposed to do, to make the people an inseperable part of the leadership process, so that no matter how powerful the government got, it's existence depended on acting on the peoples will. Whether that was neccesarily a good idea is a whole other discussion ;)
Democracy doesn't work properly because of ego, but Communism isn't an answer either, it simply exposes the weaknesses Democracy heals, and heals the weaknesses Democracy displays, often for exactly the same reasons.