Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Flipside on March 24, 2007, 05:20:18 pm
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Seems like a good opener.
I can understand the splitting off of all the meaningless drivel that has taken place in the last couple of days into the padded cell, but personally, I think this Forum serves little purpose.
My concerns are that it's simply going to make work and bad-blood, since Mods are going to see a thread in the Pub which has turned into a debate, and move it, thus possibly making it unavailable to the people involved in the debate, and annoying them.
I've had Nuclear contact me asking for permission to here, and I've told him I'll pass it on, but at the moment, with it's three threads, is worth becoming a permanent fixture or not?
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No. None of these three subforums belong. They should be rerolled into one, and should remain at the bottom.
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Well, considering some of the dross of the last couple of days, possibly selectively re-merged.
My own opinion is leave it like this for a few days, let things calm down, and then see with the Padded Cell, the main problem with it is that it is an invitation to muck around.
I think this and the post-count thing is most people's gripe, in a way I feel a bit bad because when the Hard Light forum was just moved and not split, I told everyone they still had their place for discussion of off-topic stuff etc, it was just in a different place. When I woke up the next morning, that wasn't actually the case.
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The padded cell forum is an invitation to be an ass and poke around at other's expense. In fact, Herr Snail has already begun to do just that. Things have calmed down from yesterday to today, thank god, but when people are citing the results of a poll of 36 people as 'the voice of the community' and saying that because half of those polled (18) dislike the change (when another 5+ cant even seem to vote for the option they mean anyway) that it is representative of the larger community as a whole, there is a problem.
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I've had Nuclear contact me asking for permission to here, and I've told him I'll pass it on, but at the moment, with it's three threads, is worth becoming a permanent fixture or not?
I'd say keep it. If people want to post drivel in the Pub about new computers, sports, etc. then let them post there. I'd like to keep the political and scientific debates separate from the people who would simply jump on and post nonsensical remarks and otherwise spam a useful thread.
I think we already have a fair idea of who tends to be a solid debater and who tends to be a spammer... should we set up such a list, in a recommendation fashion? Someone mentions a specific member as being just such a good debater, and we get them involved in here?
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Well, people who want to join in are welcome to apply like you did I guess, as to how many people will, I guess we'll have to wait and see.
I do know I have a blazing headache after this, as does Taristin, I don't doubt. I know being a mod means sometimes having to take the flak for things beyond your control, but sheesh....
I suppose the real gripe is the postcount thingy for most people, but, as I said in Support, if I were an Admin, I'd be in no mood whatsoever for being generous at the moment. Anyway, I guess until an Admin says one way or the other, this is the way things are.
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I do know I have a blazing headache after this, as does Taristin, I don't doubt. I know being a mod means sometimes having to take the flak for things beyond your control, but sheesh....
I suppose the real gripe is the postcount thingy for most people, but, as I said in Support, if I were an Admin, I'd be in no mood whatsoever for being generous at the moment. Anyway, I guess until an Admin says one way or the other, this is the way things are.
I wholeheartedly agree with you. It really makes no sense for people to come griping to you guys about this... yeesh, it's a little change, can't everyone just accept that? So you don't get a postcount ++ for posting unorganized amphibian **** and then throwing bananas at each other for it. Only thing I'm a little iffy about is not having a postcount ++ in the Meeting Hall, though; it's meaningful debate, not spam like the cesspool that is the Padded Room.
And if Bob and everybody who's threatening to leave HLP for this reorganization wants to, then honestly, good riddance. If we can't accept this change without kicking and screaming, then maybe that just shows what sorts of members we don't need.
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Well, I think Goobers just about covered it in the news post, and I find myself pretty much agreeing with him, or, at the very least, willing to wait and see.
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I do know I have a blazing headache after this, as does Taristin, I don't doubt. I know being a mod means sometimes having to take the flak for things beyond your control, but sheesh....
Sorry about that. :sigh: I had no idea people would act this immature about it.
Only thing I'm a little iffy about is not having a postcount ++ in the Meeting Hall, though; it's meaningful debate, not spam like the cesspool that is the Padded Room.
Agreed. I may change this.
FYI, have a look at this thread and see if there's anything else I should say (EDIT - this is what Taristin just referred to):
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,46160.0.html
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Sorry about that. I had no idea people would act this immature about it.
No problem, it took me by surprise as well, but you didn't make them act like it, they chose to.
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Sorry about that. :sigh: I had no idea people would act this immature about it.
To be honest, you don't need to apologize for anything. If everyone wants to act like crybabies, then they can. People who want to say something intelligent about the change, then fine, so much the better. I really am disappointed by the general HLP reaction to the forum change. It's almost as bad as the April Fools outcry, but completely unwarranted.
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Just my two cents:
I like most of the changes. Moving the GenDis down, creating a separate place for civilized discussion (here), etc.
There's some things I personally would have done different. Move the FreeSpace section above the general games section, merge the pub and the padded cell, etc.
However, like everything else in life, you take the good with the bad. I'm not an Admin, and I trust the judgment of those that are.
My concerns are that it's simply going to make work and bad-blood, since Mods are going to see a thread in the Pub which has turned into a debate, and move it, thus possibly making it unavailable to the people involved in the debate, and annoying them.
The problem with that is that the Pub debates will be significantly different from the debates here. Just like in real life, debates will take place in the Pub, but they'll be much more rowdy and much closer to degrading into personal attacks than debates in the Meeting Hall. I don't think that threads should be moved from the Pub to here simply because they're debates. I think the debates started in the Pub should stay in the Pub.
However, threads started here that degenerate into personal attacks or other Pub-like behavior should be moved to the Pub.
I think the biggest distinction between a Pub debate and a Meeting Hall debate is that a debate in the Meeting Hall should make you go "hrmmm" and write a thoughtful reply, while the same may not always be said for Pub debates.
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Well, actually I saw this reaction on two other forums (mainly because of postcount-removal in off-topic). On wc3sear.ch, we decided this way to decrease the constant spam. The first days, flaming increased and we had to remove some guys from the forums. Whatever, after the guys that no one needs were gone it calmed down, weeks later spam was at a minimum (in contrast to before), making me very happy cause I had less work to do. :)
Of course I can't tell if it'll be the same here, but I'm optimistic with that. Concerning the Meeting Hall, I would say let's see how this develops.
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I would like to see a more consistent implementation of this and the padded cell forum. If you are serious about creating a safe, intelligent venue for debate, a little more thought needs to go into it.
Removing post counts on alot of things is good, post counts lead to inflated self opinions and the creation of threads for the sale of creating threads, as well as clever replies like "post ++"
My e-penis doesn't need the extra length, so I personally NEVER care about post counts, except in the case of the VBB, where I was extremely proud I only had exactly 400 posts, most of which were substative. There is no way, aside from reading every single post, to tell if a post count reflects a members actual contribution. An ebay style rating system might, but even that is full of abuse potential. That being said, I am often in the minority when it comes to post counts, and people do seem to "need" them to feel positive about their participation in a forum. Some post count restoration to one or more of these forums seems appropriate, given the nature of the denizens of the Internet at large. I think its pointless, but other people don't, so there is probably a happy middle ground there somewhere.
As for the overall split? A large part of me wants to let it ride and see how it goes. I would not have done it this way, but my way would have been even less happiness and puppies. I might have created two forums, and ****canned the crap as soon as it became crap, something like the padded cell ahs the potential to backfire entirely, as it may well be doing now, but time will tell, and so long as the death "threats" and blatant antisocial behavior for the sake of being antisocial type posts start to go away, maybe it will serve a useful purpose.
I don't know.
What I am interested in seeing this community find its focus. And then pursue that focus with vigor. If it does that, all these arguments (over forum structure) become inconsequential.
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Other thoughts:
If this style of forum is necessary to the survival of the community (and I am not sure it is, but, what the hell, I am wrong alot, this is probably one of those times), then, as I said, some thought needs to go into it.
There's been alot of "but I learn so much" and "there is more than just flames" in response to this, while I am not convinced by my review of posts in what was HL that that is entirely the case, lets also go ahead and make that an assumption: People are capable, willing and hungry for real debate, the community needs an outlet for this in order to maintain itself as a community. What does that then functionally mean?
Probably something like take some of those real contributors, the ones with some sanity, and make THEM police a forum like this. If its their passion, their reward for being here, by all means, put them in charge of keeping it sane. People like Aldo should moderate a forum dedicated to debate, and he should pick his counterbalance if he has one. People who can put sentences together and make a point, should be in charge of determining whther someone is making a point, or flinging feces, and enforce the rules accordingly. Make it a sandbox, not a litterbox. Not that Flip, et al are bad at moderating, far from it, just spread the responsibility a bit, and make the people who REALLY care about a particular thing responsible for that thing.
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I would just like to say one thing: civilized discussion has occured in the padded cell, though been followed up with some stupid spam.
I'm not usually one to rattle the cage, but I will admit this is a little ridiculous. Cobra's probably still high on his power trip, and it appears he's closing any threads that address the new layout issue (he's gotta keep his admin status somehow, obviously by keeping the rest of the admins happy). Granted, some of them were unproductive and quick reactions of angered people, but some of them had genuine suggestions and (I thought, anyway) productive conversations and debate on the issue. While I respect the "admin = god, get used to the change cause it ain't changing back" rule of this board that I've known for so long, I've also known the admins to respect the forumites, even letting them discuss out something like this until they're blue in the face. The issue gets old, we're tired of being blue in the face, we get used to it, and life goes on.
I guess I feel the admins held themselves differently back then in a "they can complain all they want amongst themselves about it, but we like this change and are going to stick with it" way. I think it worked. Lately though, there've been lockages all over as if we're being naughty to the babysitter or something. I do not know why there is this change in attitude of the admins. While I understand the need to keep FS2 a focus, I don't see what's so wrong with debates, etc (provided they don't get too far out of hand).
The forum dynamic has changed. A lot of us have been here for so long that we feel like we've actually gotten to know some/many of the members. It felt more like a community rather than the "hey I have a FS2 mod question?" type of place that I first visited. I believe this is why the forumites are unhappy without being asked their opinion because we're no longer random people interested in FS2, we're all people who know each other (admins included) in some way and I think we just expected more from people we know and might even consider (online) friends.
Instead, we got a sweep-under-the-carpet move with Cobra as the broom, and I'll bet he's never been happier about such a status. So here's to you, Cobra: enjoy locking even after my perfectly calm and rational reply.
We will get tired of discussing it. I think mods and admins best move for now would be to leave all the discussion exactly as it is. Leave questionable topics open, allow people to spam it up and be asses about it. I really don't care that much about the change; if it had been an open poll, it would have been fine and dandy. I would just like posts to count... perhaps a post-count is my e-penis around here... I just don't want to look like some newb with 12 posts. I had 12 posts at a time, as did you, etc. Life goes on.
Admins: cool down. Let us rant and rave, take note of suggestions.
Mods: cool down. Let us rant and rave, take note of suggestions.
Forumites: cool down. Rant and rave as much as you want to, I doubt you'll be posting about this next week. Make your suggestions and be a bit more respectful if you want them to happen.
Lurkers: ignore all the spam for now... it'll get better when we are tired of posting about it.
Ulala; here is your response. Cobra; enjoy locking before my perfectly calm and rational reply gets any response.
I would like to bring notice to my post; let everyone cool down before the recommendations are considered and acted upon.
EDIT: I said Debate Hall originally, not Padded Cell.
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If you guys want to agree on which posts are good debate and which are not, I can split the relevant posts and move them here. I'm a little too close to the issue at this point. :)
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The tread started out as spam, thus is condemned to be spam. I don't know any good way to make that accessable and highlighted to the forum in mass; I think we all agree its good advice. I was ranting for 2 days before I cooled down enough to write that calmly. The changes are here; I can only hope the admins will accept what I recommend.
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As I said in my pm to Inquisitor, I see no reason why we have to create this seperate forum hidden from newcomers when y'all could have just been more aggressive in locking bad debates/debaters in the main.
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The problem with that is that a more stringent system of locking threads in HardLight itself would still cause complaints. There really was no way to bring about change without annoying people I think.
I do know that quite a lot of people have suggested that we have a debates forum, specifically requested it, in fact, it was quite a common suggestion back when Taris and I were made moderators, which was last time it was being a problem.
Yes, we could have kept putting pressure on in the main forum but that, to me, is even more of a 'dictatorship' than splitting the forums to try and meet everyones needs without anyone having to turn into a lock-monkey, and the inevitable accusations of trying to stifle members' rights to an opinion.
Take the Evolution thread as an example, for the main part there was a lot of heated, but very intelligent debate going on in there, with the occasional comment that wasn't well thought out and seemed to merely be flaming. Should that thread be locked? Should I censor out all the stuff that I consider 'crap'? Who's to say my choice of what is 'crap' is going to be any less biased than, say, Goobers or Aldo's? That's more responsibilty than I'd be comfortable with. If the thread degenerates into a total row, then fine, I'll lock it, but personally, I prefer not slamming the door unless it really needs it.
I do have concerns that the Padded Cell is just going to turn into a train-wreck, there are those who are just using it for zany, or silly stuff, which is fine, and quite fun, and at least keeps it out of the pub, but there are also those who seem to think that it means you can insult other people in there. I think that's a trend that should be discouraged.
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Spam should be diverted a bit... perhaps we should turn the Padded Cell into the various-flames-on-good-topics section? Prune out what is definately a flame, ignore what is not, keep an eye on what could be considered a flame. I've probably flamed a few times; generally I have nothing to say. My own quote; silence is better than stupidity.
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The problem with that is that a more stringent system of locking threads in HardLight itself would still cause complaints. There really was no way to bring about change without annoying people I think.
I do know that quite a lot of people have suggested that we have a debates forum, specifically requested it, in fact, it was quite a common suggestion back when Taris and I were made moderators, which was last time it was being a problem.
Yes, we could have kept putting pressure on in the main forum but that, to me, is even more of a 'dictatorship' than splitting the forums to try and meet everyones needs without anyone having to turn into a lock-monkey, and the inevitable accusations of trying to stifle members' rights to an opinion.
Take the Evolution thread as an example, for the main part there was a lot of heated, but very intelligent debate going on in there, with the occasional comment that wasn't well thought out and seemed to merely be flaming. Should that thread be locked? Should I censor out all the stuff that I consider 'crap'? Who's to say my choice of what is 'crap' is going to be any less biased than, say, Goobers or Aldo's? That's more responsibilty than I'd be comfortable with. If the thread degenerates into a total row, then fine, I'll lock it, but personally, I prefer not slamming the door unless it really needs it.
I do have concerns that the Padded Cell is just going to turn into a train-wreck, there are those who are just using it for zany, or silly stuff, which is fine, and quite fun, and at least keeps it out of the pub, but there are also those who seem to think that it means you can insult other people in there. I think that's a trend that should be discouraged.
Being stricter for a time is certainly less drastic and less likely to cause discontent (especially that noone really is disputing that there was a problem) than the partitioning and killing post counts that is being pursued now.
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Speaking of which, if the meeting hall is all dignified debate, can we get some post counts here? ;)
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The Padded Cell has been merged back into The Pub for now. We may reconsider it in the future, but some of the admins didn't want that drastic of a change yet.
And posts have been re-enabled in this forum. :)
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This is going to be my last comment on the issue:
I think you're trying too hard guys. If people are going to mod, they're going to do it because they actually want to; Not because it's the only way to get post count increases, or because off-topic chat is hidden at the bottom of the page. You're trying to artificially create activity in the community. If the era of "Big Modding" is over then so be it, we had one hell of a run back in the day.
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I am now almost perfectly happy with the layout. Nice work Admins! :yes:
Community Projects could be moved above the General Gaming, but that's not such a big deal.
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The new arrangement didn't incense me all that much, but one thing I would like to point out:
If you're not a member of The Meeting Hall, it's not visible to you. Meaning, there are probably a number of people (and especially new users) who are unaware of its existence.
An important element in debate is diversity. It's fine to screen people (especially to remove the useless ones) but perhaps it makes more sense to screen people OUT rather than in. Personally, I think it would make more sense to give everyone access to this particular forum by default, then pluck the troublesome users from it. I know I was a reader and member on HLP for a few months before I ever ventured into the old "Hard Light" forum. I'd hate to see new and intelligent positions excluded from a debates folder simply because they aren't aware of it.
Take it for what it's worth, but I think a policy of inclusiveness that plucks problematic members is probably a better way of organizing a debates folder than a policy of exclusiveness to begin with. It scares me that this folder may end up a hiding ground for a bunch of the maturer fellows around here to ramble on in some elitist club.
Just my $0.02 - $0.08 CAD (accounting for the exchange rate :P)
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I'm actually inclined to agree with that point of view. but it would need a high level of moderation at first, that much I know. I suppose those who get kicked out can always apply for entrance again after, say, 2 weeks of good behaviour in the pub.
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I third the notion.
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Fourth.
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Problem is, the forum is not only restricted-access, but opt-in. Some people don't actually care to visit the debates.
Also, there's the small difficulty of manually adding 3000 members. At least I can handle 4-5 PMs per day. :)
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Problem is, the forum is not only restricted-access, but opt-in. Some people don't actually care to visit the debates.
Also, there's the small difficulty of manually adding 3000 members. At least I can handle 4-5 PMs per day. :)
Well, two possible options then:
1. Can you make it open-access for all members, and then start excluding the troublemakers?
2. Or, can it at least be visible for all HLP members (even make the whole section read-only but visible to all) and then manually add people who request it?
#2 might actually be the better option. Let anyone who wants to read it, but make them request access to post here. If, of course, the forum engine lets you do that.
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That seems an extremely reasonable course of action. People who can't see it will just start their debates in the "wrong place" if this forum is to persist.
I take it this forum has no bulk member admin tools eh? I know phpBB needed a third party add-on to do bulk operations like that. Anywho, that's technical tidbits, I digress.
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Well, one thing I could do would be to run an SQL UPDATE query to bulk-add everybody. :)
I'm not sure if I could make the forums read-only to non-members. I'd have to check.
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I've been one of the advocates for a political forum since the topic came up, and this seems to fit that niche nicely, so...good stuff.
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Just my two cents:
I like most of the changes. Moving the GenDis down, creating a separate place for civilized discussion (here), etc.
There's some things I personally would have done different. Move the FreeSpace section above the general games section, merge the pub and the padded cell, etc.
However, like everything else in life, you take the good with the bad. I'm not an Admin, and I trust the judgment of those that are.
My concerns are that it's simply going to make work and bad-blood, since Mods are going to see a thread in the Pub which has turned into a debate, and move it, thus possibly making it unavailable to the people involved in the debate, and annoying them.
The problem with that is that the Pub debates will be significantly different from the debates here. Just like in real life, debates will take place in the Pub, but they'll be much more rowdy and much closer to degrading into personal attacks than debates in the Meeting Hall. I don't think that threads should be moved from the Pub to here simply because they're debates. I think the debates started in the Pub should stay in the Pub.
However, threads started here that degenerate into personal attacks or other Pub-like behavior should be moved to the Pub.
I think the biggest distinction between a Pub debate and a Meeting Hall debate is that a debate in the Meeting Hall should make you go "hrmmm" and write a thoughtful reply, while the same may not always be said for Pub debates.
The changes arent all bad, really, just the location, but it's not really an annoyance.
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:bump:
I knew this thread would pick up steam. I really like this place.
Please don't change it or anything.
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Well, one thing I could do would be to run an SQL UPDATE query to bulk-add everybody. :)
I'm not sure if I could make the forums read-only to non-members. I'd have to check.
...well?