Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Stealth on April 16, 2007, 12:04:54 pm
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070416/ap_on_re_us/virginia_tech_shooting
EDIT: clarified title // G5K
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:(
32 people total
it was not known if he was a student.
he was. From what I heard he wore a letter jocket, and you don't get one unless you're a student.
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Christ. We were watching this on CNN in Theater class today. Our student intern's brother goes there, but thankfully he was on the other side of campus. This is goddamned awful, no two ways about it.
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**** up.
Wish he were still alive, so he could go through some serious retribution.\
EDIT: Spelling.
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http://kotaku.com/gaming/virginia-tech/breaking-idiot-blames-va-shooting-on-games-252702.php
****ing surprise surprise..
That guy is disgusting -_-
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070416/ap_on_re_us/virginia_tech_shooting
Jesus... :(
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**** up.
Wish he were still alive, so he could go through some serious retribution.
Well if he were alive, he would be on trial for a few years, then probably sentenced to death or life in prison where he will cost $25,000 minimum a year to keep alive. Or he would plead insanity because no sane person would do this and cost even more money. He didnt escape anything by killing himself.
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I say for ****wads like these we should bring back cruel and unusual punishment. To be meted out by me, of course.
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death totals up to 33 now somehow.
And I misheard the radio, it wasn't a letter jacket, it was a leather jacket.
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well i could have been worse. He could have been a better shot.
On the flip side they could have ended it quicker, i saw some of those cops on tv, my grampa can run faster.
Give the gunman/gunmen one chance to drop their weapons, if they don't comply kill them. No court time, no waisted money on a prison stay and less retards in the verse. But that is just my opinon on the matter.
Guns don't kill people, people kill people.
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Guns don't kill people, people kill people.
guns really help though.
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If someone's determined to kill people, they don't really need a gun to do so. :)
The ingredients for a decent bomb can be found under most kitchen sinks you know.
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why go thru all that trouble just hit them in the back of the head, they go asleep and then you have all the time in the world.
But all you realy need is:
1 hammer
2 nails
1 big stump
1 barn full of hay
1 match
1 spoon :drevil:
other list to come sortly.
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He could have killed alot more people with a combination of common household items and chemicals. But seriously, saying guns kill people is like saying cars kill people, not reckless driving.
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Figuring out how to kill people more efficiently really isn't a very respectful reaction to this event.
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Virginia Tech's behavior in this entire incident is unconscionable. First they fail to respond to the 7AM shooting of a single person, allowing classes to continue and students to remain unaware of the shooting for two hours. :wtf: Second, after the 9AM shootings start, they lock down the entire campus so that nobody can escape, allowing the gunman all the targets he wants.
That, combined with their clumsy handling of the escaped prisoner in August, makes me seriously question their competence to run a school.
I could say the gunman is facing ultimate justice right now, but that's little solace to the grieving. :(
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Figuring out how to kill people more efficiently really isn't a very respectful reaction to this event.
No... but I'm betting he broke quite a few laws procuring / using those guns...
This is sad. Wonder why he did it. :confused:
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No... but I'm betting he broke quite a few laws procuring / using those guns...
This is sad. Wonder why he did it. :confused:
Procuring? No. No laws against owning a handgun(or more) if you're 21 in most states, including Virginia.
Using? Well...yeah. Murder is against the law.
As for why? Someone like that is a sociopath, and they're honest to god not mentally healthy. Something may have set them off, but that's the base cause, and other than killing him at the start, there's no way to prevent something like that from happening.
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Ah, I meant breaking the law because he had handguns; to use those, some states require a permit. When they do the permit, I'm pretty sure they evaluate you, don't they (background & psychological)?
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Did Florida ever disbar Thompson? I know there was talk of it a few months back.
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http://kotaku.com/gaming/virginia-tech/breaking-idiot-blames-va-shooting-on-games-252702.php
****ing surprise surprise..
That guy is disgusting -_-
No... but I'm betting he broke quite a few laws procuring / using those guns...
This is sad. Wonder why he did it. :confused:
Procuring? No. No laws against owning a handgun(or more) if you're 21 in most states, including Virginia.
Using? Well...yeah. Murder is against the law.
As for why? Someone like that is a sociopath, and they're honest to god not mentally healthy. Something may have set them off, but that's the base cause, and other than killing him at the start, there's no way to prevent something like that from happening.
As for why? GTA probably made him do it. :doubt: :rolleyes:
This is truly disguting, I'm really sorry for the families.
edit: posted way wrong.
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Instead of deleting and reposting, you could just edit in the future.
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There's no law against owning a handgun if you're of age. That is something I would like to be made clear.
What you're most likely thinking of is the legality of carrying a concealed weapon. That you do need a permit for, and if he was hiding it on his person then he did commit another felony, but for someone like that it's not like it matters. Laws are for the law-abiding and sane.
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Educational facilities in general have horrible security that makes it harder for people to survive... when my school goes into lock down the administration gathers everyone in an off period into the cafeteria... which is covered in windows... with one pepper-spray equipped 110 lb security guard.
well i could have been worse. He could have been a better shot.
On the flip side they could have ended it quicker, i saw some of those cops on tv, my grampa can run faster.
100lbs of body armor tends to hamper.
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Instead of deleting and reposting, you could just edit in the future.
I tried that, didnt work so that's way I removed and posted again.
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There's no law against owning a handgun if you're of age. That is something I would like to be made clear.
What you're most likely thinking of is the legality of carrying a concealed weapon. That you do need a permit for, and if he was hiding it on his person then he did commit another felony, but for someone like that it's not like it matters. Laws are for the law-abiding and sane.
Agreed. I was just trying to make sure no one started saying we should band handguns or anything; this fella prolly already broke quite a few laws (not to mention murder).
Anyways, I can't imagine what it must have been like there. yikes.
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Oh well just look at this. Once again the basic response to crazy people shooting incident. Blame everything else but the crazy guy.
If them mother****ing americans go blaming computergames and I'll swear I'll join the holy war.
Though the media blackout leads me to believe someone is trying to figure out how to blame allah about this.
"People are bastard coated bastards with bastard filling"
Free shot between the eyes for the one who knows who I quoted...
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"People are bastard coated bastards with bastard filling"
Free shot between the eyes for the one who knows who I quoted...
Scrubs?
*shoot between the eyes* :P
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Ya... :snipe:
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He could have killed alot more people with a combination of common household items and chemicals. But seriously, saying guns kill people is like saying cars kill people, not reckless driving.
Uhm, no, not really. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to kill over 15-20 people with an explosion from one source? Just ask the Palestinians (not trying to get political, let's keep this about VT, but this is just the example I am familiar with). Pack a 20kg bomb with metal shrapnel all around and blow it up on a crowded bus, and you might manage to kill 20 people. For this guy to have taken out 32 other people, one bullet at a time, is just a sign that nobody knew what to do (Flght 93-style), and were just cowered in a corner somewhere.
Not to demean them or anything - it's gotta take balls to go up against a crazy man with a gun - but when there's nobody else around who can take the threat out from a distance, and no immediate escape, charging en masse is the only logical thing to do.
Granted, I come from a society where people actually do think about what their response will be when faced with such a situation, so it doesn't surprise me that your run-of-the-mill American college students didn't do that. I'm just saying is all.
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That's a good point. The whole episode has a serious :wtf: flavor. It sounds like he didn't have any assault weapons; he had a pair of 9mm handguns, which aren't that big and which generally don't kill unless aimed at a critical part of the body. Apparently he lined them up against the wall and shot them execution-style. He's only one guy... surely some of the people "waiting their turn" could have tried turning around and doing something?
I'm guessing we don't have the whole picture yet, and we'll have to wait for more reports to come in. I would hope that Americans aren't actually that sheep-like. :sigh:
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Judging by the story I just read, he had 2 weapons, (I guess semi automatic) with 22 bullets apiece.
He walked into the classroom, shot the teacher, repeatedly fired at students, eventually left. Then, he came back in and started shooting again. Rinse and repeat. Eventually, the one classroom with the student's testimony this was from blocked the door. Bodily. And he started shooting through the door. In the end, that class lost 21 students or so out of 25.
Really, even if not fatal, repeatedly shooting people does tend to kill them. However, judging by another set of numbers, on average, fired one bullet every 3 seconds... :wtf:
Apparently most students played dead.
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I'm guessing we don't have the whole picture yet, and we'll have to wait for more reports to come in. I would hope that Americans aren't actually that sheep-like. :sigh:
Are you saying that you would have lead a valiant uprising against the gunman? Rallying your fellow students to bring him down?
**** that, you'd be against the wall with everyone else praying his clip runs dry before he gets to you. :doubt:
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For this guy to have taken out 32 other people, one bullet at a time, is just a sign that nobody knew what to do (Flght 93-style), and were just cowered in a corner somewhere.
Try that two or three bullets at a time. He followed up.
I normally manage to find fault with these people in planning and execution. Of course, they are also normally much younger than this as well. Either he could think on his feet well or he put some thought into this. Similarly I normally manage to fault their accuracy, but he placed most of his rounds on target. He displayed an unusual desire to insure that anyone he hit did not just go down but stayed that way permanently. Most of the time fatalities in the sort of thing are incidiental, the result of someone getting unlucky more than anything else. This guy had good shot placement and a willingness to go back and do it right.
And hey, Sandwhich, check class sizes before you throw that kind of stuff. The one I found figures for was 15 students. Add a teacher for 16. With two handguns he would have had enough ammunition ready to use to drop most or all of the class. There were three people unhurt after he left the room. That fits pretty well with a pair of your average 9mm's magazines and most people getting shot more than once.
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Yea, I have to say, one of the things that I always find about school shootings is that the gunman just goes in and sprays as many bullets as he can, and if someone happens to get hit critically, they go down.
This guy, on the other hand, was stone cold - he judged his shots and actually aimed to deliberately kill. If you read the story, he walked into the room and shot the teacher in the head with his first shot - obviously he didn't go running in and shooting wildly - he knew what he was doing.
Now, granted, if I was lined up against the wall I'd rather charge him and get shot doing that, then waiting for him to walk over and pop me in the head - but I know that as soon as I broke from the ranks I'd be shot down instantly. Sandwich, a quick image search of "Virginia tech classrooms" reveals:
(http://www.dl.vt.edu/image/iddl/room/bur3.jpg)
and
(http://www.cdcd.vt.edu/PJD/Const.Status/photos/c-Classroom.jpg)
An environment like that is basically a shooting gallery. Either you go down and hide under the desks and pray that this guy thinks you're already dead, or you stand up and try to charge him. If you do the latter, you're now the biggest target in the room, and get priority over everyone else - because he knows if you're standing up you're probably planning to attack him.
While I would have charged and gone down while doing that (at least, that's what I think I'd do), it's very logical to be "sheep-like" as you so put it, and stay down and hide under the bodies. Even then you wouldn't stand much of a chance, because as we can see, this gunman was determined to take out everyone in the room, even if he had to come back multiple times to do it. It's like he studied other shootings and found out what they did wrong, and improve on it.
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As for why? Someone like that is a sociopath, and they're honest to god not mentally healthy. Something may have set them off, but that's the base cause, and other than killing him at the start, there's no way to prevent something like that from happening.
I can tell you 100% that this guy wasn't a sociopath - or antisocial personality disorder.That is a highly abused term. Narcisisstic, borderline, or dependent PD is an extreme maybe. Mentally healthy - well, chances are he was having problems. Stress and anxiety have nasty psychologicaly effects. Couple that with cultural variables such as distance from support networks (apparently he was a Korea with permanent resident status) and you may just have yourself a recipe for disaster.
As to prevention - well, there are ways to prevent things like this from happening. Coping skills and interpersonal counselling are big ones. But those require early intervention.
EDIT: I'm not excusing his behaviour, merely pointing out that armchair diagnoses lead to more confusion than is necessary.
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I knew Dr. Loganathan (engineering prof @ Vtech). His family back home must feel terrible.
Ouch.
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I wouldent have jumped out a window, i would have ambushed him at the door.
And this is a sad day. I have friends who have friends that go there.
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One of the docs they interviewed said most of thw wounded/dead had 2-3 bullet wounds. Brutally delibrate.
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Now I expect a big squabble among democrats for gun control, and they will get it passed from pure sensationalist reaction. The next school shooting will be with a crossbow. :sigh:
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Speaking of politics, I find it interesting that as soon as this happens, George W is there on the scene to mourn with the victims, yet he vanished without a trace all throughout the Katrina disaster.
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For this guy to have taken out 32 other people, one bullet at a time, is just a sign that nobody knew what to do (Flght 93-style), and were just cowered in a corner somewhere.
And hey, Sandwhich, check class sizes before you throw that kind of stuff. The one I found figures for was 15 students. Add a teacher for 16. With two handguns he would have had enough ammunition ready to use to drop most or all of the class. There were three people unhurt after he left the room. That fits pretty well with a pair of your average 9mm's magazines and most people getting shot more than once.
And how does that contradict what I said?
My whole point was that killing that many people with a home-brew explosive device is (apparently) quite difficult, while shooting that many people is time-consuming.
Oh, and as an aside, there was NOBODY left unhurt in ANY of those classrooms. Physically, perhaps. But the emotional trauma....
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Hmm, on the topic of getting up and charging the guy... You'd be the biggest target, but you'd also be a moving target. Depending on your luck / training and other factors, you might actually make it. I dunno.
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In all honesty, the best thing to do would probably be to get a few guys to start throwing chairs and desks at the gunman while others went and swarmed him.
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Pencils, textbooks, shoes....
Anyway, from what I heard, he bolted the door, stood in front of the room, fired, calmly reloaded his pistol, and fired again. Noone did anything. Fear does that to people. It's the "United 93" syndrome.
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In all honesty, the best thing to do would probably be to get a few guys to start throwing chairs and desks at the gunman while others went and swarmed him.
Actually, the most effective thing that anyone did against him was barricading the doors with tables, it seems. At least that's what I picked up from the coverage I saw during dinner today, though I really wasn't impressed by the anchor's work during it.
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That's a defensive measure though. Ask Sun Tzu (or whatever his name was) - you'll never win by playing defensively.
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That's a defensive measure though. Ask Sun Tzu (or whatever his name was) - you'll never win by playing defensively.
Sun Tzu didn't work with firearms and untrained civilians. It's a college, not an army base.
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And though it may not have stopped the shooter, it did prevent him from shooting the students in that room.
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Hmm, I just read some of the news links from DrudgeReport (http://www.drudgereport.com/) - apparently, he'd written several disturbing English essays and his teacher had urged him to get counseling. Also, the handguns were legally bought, since he had a green card, as long as he didn't have any felonies... hmm, but it says he filed the serial numbers off, I don't get that. If you're planning on going on a suicidal rampage, what's the point? Anyways, the links I followed from Drudge were:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=3048108&page=1
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20070417/D8OIHK281.html
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You know unless someone was actually being shot at in one of these types of situations, no one really has the right to say "why didn't they do this/that?" or "I would've done this instead of being a coward"
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I know, but I believe they're saying, from a logical standpoint, what should have been done. Of course, that assumes that you can force logic to overrule your fears, which not everyone can do. (Not that it's their fault; I don't know if I could do it.. I certainly hope so, but I also hope I never find out.)
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Have you read his plays yet?
http://newsbloggers.aol.com/2007/04/17/cho-seung-huis-plays/ (http://newsbloggers.aol.com/2007/04/17/cho-seung-huis-plays/)
Bravo, if I do say so myself.
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Let the descrimination of loners begin.
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hmm, but it says he filed the serial numbers off, I don't get that. If you're planning on going on a suicidal rampage, what's the point? Anyways, the links I followed from
He may not have intended it to be a suicide run?
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Or perhaps someone framed him to be the shooter and is in fact still loose somewhere? :shaking:
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Doesn't seem very likely. They have eyewitnesses to him being the gunman for the second incident, though I think they've yet to officially state that he was the gunman in the first incident, though it was the same gun.
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arise my nihilistik minions and cause death! muhahahaha!
ok, that was definately called for, they are my views. we need the occasional reminder that our race still is not civilized. expensive but nessicary
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Still uncalled for. >:-| what the heck are you thinking? I'm of the opinion that 9/11 was a needed wake up call, but I didn't post somewheres about radical Islamics joining the jihad. Think, then post.
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Are you saying that you would have lead a valiant uprising against the gunman? Rallying your fellow students to bring him down?
**** that, you'd be against the wall with everyone else praying his clip runs dry before he gets to you. :doubt:
Naturally, nobody can say for certain what they'd do until they're actually in such a situation. But I would think that, given a choice between certain death lined up against the wall execution-style, and uncertain death making a last stand, someone would choose the latter. It's been done before. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monash_University_shooting)
This, of course, assumes the "execution-style" report is accurate; it would be quite a bit dicier in the room posted by Unknown Target. But even there, you might be able to throw enough books, backpacks, and laptops at the guy that he'd get distracted long enough for someone else to tackle him. Having football players there would be even better.
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If the only source of light is electric (which sometimes it isn't), then you've got that, too. Hitting targets is hard in a dark room. But I'm not sure of the wisdom of trying that. But it beats waiting your turn in line...
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For those that missed it: Asshole alert!!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weG7A4lTGtg&mode=related&search=)
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And i bet someone goes talking about how bad the muslims are... (no idea what they have to do with this, but it will happen anyway)
My condulances to everyone involved.
And jack thompson... this has nothing to do with computer games! that kid was being ignored by almost everyone on the university! (wich is one of the most painfull way's of ... bullying... (whats the right word for this?))
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Hmm, well "Super Columbine Massacre" sounds like a good game to check out, I think I'll go get it now. Oh, I'll be taking classes at your university next week, too.
Really, though:
I don't agree with everything he says, but can anyone point out an inaccuracy in what this guy said? I mean, let's not blame violent video games, but if someone is obsessed with them, as well as displaying odd behavior, so much that the teacher asked him to go for treatment, you'd think you'd be able to put 2 and 2 together. Not necessarily, but if you get enough warning flags pop up, use your head, that's what it's there for. In other words, video games are not the cause, but rather a symptom. Not that they are indicative, unless obsession with them, and odd behavior is noticed as well.
Can you follow my train of thought? I mean, I'm for hunting rights, I wouldn't mind hunting. But if someone were to go out and become obsessed with killing animals, just reveling in doing so, wouldn't that cause you to perhaps take a closer look and see if other patterns might exist, and if they do, to notify authorities, as well as encourage said person to get help?
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Can you follow my train of thought? I mean, I'm for hunting rights, I wouldn't mind hunting. But if someone were to go out and become obsessed with killing animals, just reveling in doing so, wouldn't that cause you to perhaps take a closer look and see if other patterns might exist, and if they do, to notify authorities, as well as encourage said person to get help?
Dexter (http://www.tv.com/dexter/show/62683/summary.html), anyone?
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Well it got pretty big headlines even here in sweden, horrific is the word id use and also awful for all of those involved, but something tell me that they are going to make this into that it was computer games that gave him the ide to kill those people or something so now the moral drums will thunder in america I just hope they dont forget that you dont just get the idea of gunning down your classmates from playing computer games if you do that you have a few more screws loose.
And then again I havent been to the US but is it really that easy to buy a handgun as to walk into a store and buy one if your 21?
/Dice
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? I'm not familiar with this (Dexter); can someone fill me in?
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? I'm not familiar with this (Dexter); can someone fill me in?
I linked it for you..... :confused:
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http://abcnews.go.com/US/print?id=3052278
This gets worse and worse. Who ever let this guy go was an idiot. Really, this looks like Columbine all over again.
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Seems the Washington Post removed the reference to Counterstrike: http://kotaku.com/gaming/washington-post/wapost-removes-counterstrike-reference-from-story-253356.php
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070418/ap_on_re_us/virginia_tech_shooting
Some minor details of his manifesto.
Some tidbits:
""You thought it was one pathetic boy's life you were extinguishing. Thanks to you, I die like Jesus Christ, to inspire generations of the weak and the defenseless people.""
...
"He refers to "martyrs like Eric and Dylan" — a reference to the teenage killers in the Columbine High massacre."
This guy was a real looney.
By the way, it's interesting that the cell phone camera videos of that day are already on Youtube and Collegehumor. If you really want to look at them, go ahead, but I won't post the links (I didn't watch them myself).
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Something tells me things would have been a little bit different had this not been a gun-free zone. All the recent shootings before this were stopped before they got really bad by good people with a concealed carry permit because they were not gun-free zones. Unfortunate, to say the least.
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He bought the gun legally, which is the really sad thing. It shows that super lax gun laws cause problems like this. If there was a law where a person had to go through a psychiatric profile before they bought a gun, then this might've not happened.
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*sigh* That's going too far. This is not a gun issue, this is a issue of identifying him as a pyscho, which apparently they did, but failed to act on it.
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And then again I havent been to the US but is it really that easy to buy a handgun as to walk into a store and buy one if your 21?
There are background checks and waiting lists, at least in the fashion he purchased his weapons. (This is not always the case.) They are essentially intended to ensure you are not a criminal and that you have a week or four to think it over rather than going out, buying a gun, and using it on someone when you get home.
I have to agree with Deepblue, a pysch eval specifically for this purpose is too much to ask, but if there happens to be one handy out there then I would hope that might get mentioned.
The problem here is that he was that rare combination of crazy enough to actually do this, but sane enough to avoid being identified and stopped beforehand and sane enough to plan it out, prepare for it, and do it right. (Crummy wording on that last, but a better one did not occur to me.)
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So.. I've fired real handguns before, and something like Doom or GTA "training" me is a bit of a stretch. I've played a fair amount of first person shooters, but in no way did they "prepare" me for the real thing. Psychologically, I think paintball or airsoft is a better form of desensitization since they'd actually give me an adrenaline rush as opposed to a video game. :rolleyes:
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Don't forget Dodgeball.
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Still uncalled for. >:-| what the heck are you thinking? I'm of the opinion that 9/11 was a needed wake up call, but I didn't post somewheres about radical Islamics joining the jihad. Think, then post.
let it be known that i fully support homicidal madmen. they are a reflection of the evil lying dormant in all humans. we blow off every massacre that occures throughout the world and then freak out when it happens to us. giving it a day and a half of thought and i still woulda said the same damn thing. mankind is **** and only global nuclear holocaust has any hope of forcing it to grow up.
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oops double post
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So you think the only way to wake people up is for them to be forced to see the evil lying dormant in all of us? You can lead a horse to water... they will always have an excuse; they will always justify themselves. Change can only be done by God, one heart at a time, and only if they will let Him. Sure, aweful events like this can sometimes bring a person to seek for answers, but it can just as easily make them even more jaded and angry.
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youre too normal to see the light in darkness.
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There is no Light in Darkness; the Light casts out the Darkness.
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youre too sane,you cant possibly understand
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19The [basis of the] judgment (indictment, the test by which men are judged, the ground for the sentence) lies in this: the Light has come into the world, and people have loved the darkness rather than and more than the Light, for their works (deeds) were evil.(C)
20For every wrongdoer hates (loathes, detests) the Light, and will not come out into the Light but shrinks from it, lest his works (his deeds, his activities, his conduct) be exposed and reproved.
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*sigh* here we go....
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Heh, I would have split this into another topic, (I'm sure Nuke wouldn't mind), but there are no self-moderation options on this board, other than delete post. :/
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There is no Light in Darkness; the Light casts out the Darkness.
youre too sane,you cant possibly understand
No, Nuke, he has a point. Logically speaking, darkness can be defined as the absence of light, hence a fallacy occurs when you try to imply there is light within darkness. Philosophically the issue is far more ambiguous, and jr2 is therefore wrong to attempt to apply an absolute statement to a philosophical paradigm, but the fact remains that logic is on his side.
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theres a meeting hall for debate. i was not planning on debating, simply expressing my views, it was not an invitation. its a waste of ones mental energires to try to disprove a metaphore with logic though. but theres a reason i havent asked for access to the meeting hall. jr2 is clearly a pcifist bible thumper, and nuke is clearly a nihilistik sociopath with a soft spot for homicidal maniacs. cant we just leave it at that?
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theres a meeting hall for debate. i was not planning on debating, simply expressing my views, it was not an invitation. its a waste of ones mental energires to try to disprove a metaphore with logic though. but theres a reason i havent asked for access to the meeting hall. jr2 is clearly a pcifist bible thumper, and nuke is clearly a nihilistik sociopath with a soft spot for homicidal maniacs. cant we just leave it at that?
Sure, with one correction.
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Yeah, it's kinda hard to be a pacifist if you actually read the whole Bible. But anyway...
He bought the gun legally, which is the really sad thing. It shows that super lax gun laws cause problems like this. If there was a law where a person had to go through a psychiatric profile before they bought a gun, then this might've not happened.
Uhm, try rephrasing that. Perhaps super-lax gun laws allow problems like this to occur easier, but they certainly don't cause such problems. The cause of such problems is violent video games mental instability combined with external circumstances to push you over the edge. :D
...not to be an armchair shrink or anything. :nervous:
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...not to be an armchair shrink or anything. :nervous:
...as opposed to a battlefield shrink? :p
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Perhaps super-lax gun laws allow problems like this to occur easier, but they certainly don't cause such problems. The cause of such problems is violent video games mental instability combined with external circumstances to push you over the edge. :D
...not to be an armchair shrink or anything. :nervous:
I think you are on target here, Sandwich. I actually am a "shrink," (a Medical Family Therapist, to be exact, and I have worked in inpatient psychiatry with the toughest mental health cases) and I have worked with other cases that could have turned out just like this had the signs not been identified and had we not resisted the external pressures to discharge the patient. I had one recent case where the patient was litterally going to be released in less than 40 minutes when I was working with her and uncovered the fact that she was feeling extremely homicidal towards her mother, who was with us in a family therapy session and who was going to be the one to drive her home upon her release from the psychiatric unit . Could we say for certain she was going to hurt her mother? No, but I wasn't willing to take the risk, and we kept the patient for a while longer until she was stablized.
When people are thinking delusionally and are under the influence of compulsive thoughts towards homicide or suicide, you have to take everything seriously. From what is being released, this guy was practically screaming "I'm unstable and dangerous!" Sadly, the mechanisms that were supposed to identify him and help him were bypassed, probably by people who felt that they meant well at the time.
The sad thing is, mental health is often considered a "luxury" service, and there is a real third-party and governmental pressure to get people out of treatment as soon as possible and as cheap as possible, sometimes regardless as to whether a real threat remains or not. While this is a tragedy, I am hoping that this helps people to reconsider the way mental health services are regarded in their place in the US health care system. Maybe, then, we will be given the resources we need to identify these cases early and prevent similar tragedies.
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From what is being released, this guy was practically screaming "I'm unstable and dangerous!" Sadly, the mechanisms that were supposed to identify him and help him were bypassed, probably by people who felt that they meant well at the time.
Kinda like Chernobyl... the reactor told the people controlling it that it was gonna pop, but those people didn't know how to interpret the signs... and they were told by higher authority to run the reactor test in a certain way, so that's what they did. Similarly, I'm pretty sure that in mental health care, the funds are as limited as in any other public health service, and resources are limited accordingly... thus, the health adminstration has to make their employees decide who should be treated and with what priority.
It can't be entirely the fault of the people trying to do their job at minimal budget. Mental health care pretty much everywhere has to do a lot of priorizing and that's bound to backfire occasionally. They cannot take care of everyone identified with problems. Perhaps, at the time of the mental health inspection or whatever, there were people more immediately dangerous to themselves and their surroundings that took up the slots for care before him. We don't know the context in which he was let go home, so it's best not to judge anything but what we see happened - the guy flipped and 33 people is dead as a result. We really don't *know* anything else, although there's a lot of hearsay going around different places.
Perhaps there could be a reason to assign some more funds to health services and less to funding overzealous crusades for spreading liberty to hell-holes of the world... :sigh: :rolleyes:
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Today's Morale: Don't tease shy kids, or they'll go crazy and kill you.
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18169776/
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Yeah, it's kinda hard to be a pacifist if you actually read the whole Bible. But anyway...
He bought the gun legally, which is the really sad thing. It shows that super lax gun laws cause problems like this. If there was a law where a person had to go through a psychiatric profile before they bought a gun, then this might've not happened.
Uhm, try rephrasing that. Perhaps super-lax gun laws allow problems like this to occur easier, but they certainly don't cause such problems. The cause of such problems is violent video games mental instability combined with external circumstances to push you over the edge. :D
...not to be an armchair shrink or anything. :nervous:
ive sold guns in the united states before (used to work in a pawn shop). you cannot buy a gun with anything less than 3 pieces of identification, a brady form, and a phone call to the fbi. sure there are other ways to circumvent, small time weapon dealers, theft, ect. that pawn shot i worked for was rather shady but the feds were rather good at enforcing the gun laws. ant they probibly woulda fired us for selling a gun under the table.
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Can you follow my train of thought? I mean, I'm for hunting rights, I wouldn't mind hunting. But if someone were to go out and become obsessed with killing animals, just reveling in doing so, wouldn't that cause you to perhaps take a closer look and see if other patterns might exist, and if they do, to notify authorities, as well as encourage said person to get help?
He is right you know... and I think I have to get myself checked (Im obsessed with killiing shivans)
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When people are thinking delusionally and are under the influence of compulsive thoughts towards homicide or suicide, you have to take everything seriously. From what is being released, this guy was practically screaming "I'm unstable and dangerous!" Sadly, the mechanisms that were supposed to identify him and help him were bypassed, probably by people who felt that they meant well at the time.
...Maybe, then, we will be given the resources we need to identify these cases early and prevent similar tragedies.
Kinda like Chernobyl... the reactor told the people controlling it that it was gonna pop, but those people didn't know how to interpret the signs... and they were told by higher authority to run the reactor test in a certain way, so that's what they did.
What came to mind when I read your posts was something I heard recently regarding Hitler and WWII... I forget the exact quote, but it was along the lines of, "If someone is threatening to kill you - pay attention to him!" And with that in mind, I personally can't help but think of Ahmedinenjhad's (sp?) threats to wipe the country I live in off the map.
But anyway.
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ive sold guns in the united states before (used to work in a pawn shop). you cannot buy a gun with anything less than 3 pieces of identification, a brady form, and a phone call to the fbi. sure there are other ways to circumvent, small time weapon dealers, theft, ect. that pawn shot i worked for was rather shady but the feds were rather good at enforcing the gun laws. ant they probibly woulda fired us for selling a gun under the table.
Are you sure thats not just Alaska law? Ive known people aquiring arms around here (Michigan) much easier.
And I couldent help but notice this when seeing Cho's hammer pic.
(http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/graphics/2007/04/19/wrampage19b.jpg)
(http://img.search.com/thumb/5/5a/Varg-vikernes.jpg/300px-Varg-vikernes.jpg)
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What I want to know is why NBC is being berated for showing his video. Aren't these people even curious as to the method behind his madness?
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Letting people know the "reason" that he had and plastering his image/voice all over the news 24 hours a day are two mutually exclusive objectives. Like the one NBC spokesman said, showing it once when it breaks is one thing, but continuing to show it over and over amounts to nothing more than macabre pornography. I don't know anyone personally involved with this whole horrible tragedy myself, but even I felt sickened by staring at those pictures of him. Like the students' parents said, let's try to take a memory of life and hope out of this, not one of a sickeningly sub-human psychopath.
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They're being berated by the other networks because they didn't get his package.
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This is some bad ****.
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ive sold guns in the united states before (used to work in a pawn shop). you cannot buy a gun with anything less than 3 pieces of identification, a brady form, and a phone call to the fbi. sure there are other ways to circumvent, small time weapon dealers, theft, ect. that pawn shot i worked for was rather shady but the feds were rather good at enforcing the gun laws. ant they probibly woulda fired us for selling a gun under the table.
Are you sure thats not just Alaska law? Ive known people aquiring arms around here (Michigan) much easier.
And I couldent help but notice this when seeing Cho's hammer pic.
(http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/graphics/2007/04/19/wrampage19b.jpg)
(http://img.search.com/thumb/5/5a/Varg-vikernes.jpg/300px-Varg-vikernes.jpg)
that was arizona law actually, was living in phoenix at the time. anyway phoenix is one of the most gun happy places ive ever lived. i think i was the only person at that pawn shop who didnt own a firearm, my brother owned one and had a concealed permit. and it was quite common to see people wearing guns in public. anyway the brady act is in federal law, the forms have to be sent to the fbi, they can read off over the phone to get autorization to sell immediately. i think the way it works is that if you have a file with the fbi, you usually have to wait 2 weeks for them to autorize or deny the transaction, if youre clean they will autorize an immediate transaction.
heil varg!
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The guy got what he wanted... celebrity suicide in a blaze of glory. With everyone pretending to be sad about a few dozen deaths and fuming about how bad a person he was. When's the movie coming out?
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2010 give or take.
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http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070502-student-creates-counter-strike-map-gets-kicked-out-of-school.html
So, if I create a CS map that looks like the Knesset and secret it away on Olmert's gaming rig, can I get him kicked out of office? :D
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:eek::lol: :eek:
:rolleyes:
Man... I better watch myself... I make maps of my school/hometown all the time...
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The guy got what he wanted... celebrity suicide in a blaze of glory. With everyone pretending to be sad about a few dozen deaths and fuming about how bad a person he was. When's the movie coming out?
Hit the nail on the head right there. A few people die every second from natural and unnatural causes, I dont mean to be cold but what makes these 30-so people special? Our school had 30 seconds of silence for all those killed, but if we did the same for WTC we would be silent for around an hour, and if we did the same for every person that dies of unnatural causes we would be constantly silent!! because more than one dies every second!
Whenever people get all worked up about the death of people they have no personal connection to I really feel like shouting some perspective into them. Even WTC is nothing to cry about. At least 2000 people died from a terrorist attack over the course of a day. Far more than 2000 people die of AIDS in Africa over the course of a day, and no average American cries about that. I find it irrational since the average American is just as disconnected from 2000 random New Yorkers and 2000 Africans, unless you bring race into play, but I digress.
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It's not just the dying that's the issue. It's that those people were slaughtered unexpectedly by a psychopathic killer. That is a big shock to anyone close to them. I admit that it didn't bother me much, since it did happen on the other side of the world. But had it happened in my home town, I might have shed a tear or two.
You fail to see the difference in someone dying from something like AIDS (death to be expected), and people dying a sudden violent death.
And it did happen in an area where unexpected violent deaths are uncommon and people are not used tot hem. When these kinds of things should not even happen, outrage is to be expected.
You say you don't mean to be cold, but you are.
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What makes a sudden, voilent death worse than a normal death (or a miserable, slow decline into death with AIDS)? Death is horrible no matter if its expected or not. and what difference does area make? It does make a difference for people, I'm arguing that it shouldent.
Clarification Edit: I mean the area and means by which someone dies shouldent make their death any more or less tragic. Loss of life is the main point, how they lose it is only a sidenote.
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I see your point, KappaWing, I've wondered about it myself. eg, the tsunami... vs. Katrina.
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Personally, I don't care. I don't see a need to get depressed or worked up about things like this, and although people sometimes talk about how traumatized/shocked they are after events such as this (like Sept. 11th in particular), as far as I can tell, they're not loosing sleep over it, just conforming.
And about that whole AIDs/psycho killer conundrum, I'd rather get shot and get it over with than have to live months more with a deadly disease. And several dozen people are blown up in Baghdad every day and I've hardly seeen anyone care at all, killing doesn't just happen in America.
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With all due respect to Mustang/Kappa, I think it's completely natural and appropriate to have this sort of reaction to incidents like this. As horrible and ravishing a disease as the AIDS epidemic is, it's become a fact of life in today's world; we all realize, and even to some degree accept, that there will be millions of deaths caused by it every year in developing countries. Even though there are a lot of people fighting very hard to change this, it's part of our daily experience about how the world works.
In contrast, when you have an incident where over 30 college students and professors are gunned down in cold blood in the middle of classes, or when thousands of ordinary businesspeople are killed in one horrific swoop, you can't help but be rather shocked and stunned. Like Mustang alluded to, that sort of thing doesn't (one might even say "isn't supposed to") happen on a daily, or even yearly basis, especially not in a country like the United States. It's so far out of our daily way of thinking, we almost can't even comprehend it. There's also the issue of being able to relate to the victims much more deeply when a tragedy happens closer to home. When I see pictures of people suffering from AIDS in Ethiopia, I may feel for them, but all they're really able to represent to me are faces living half a planet away. In contrast, as a college student, I look at the people who died at VT and see people who could have been sitting next to me in class today...or hell, even my own face. The same is true for a lot of people in the case of 9/11. It may seem like a double-standard to some, and by some definitions it is, but it's also the natural way that we as human beings operate.
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Good point Mongoose, I think that way about the event itself. The event of 9/11 is certainly more shocking-therefore-horrific than the event of AIDS, simply because the event of AIDS is a constant, everyday thing, has been going on for a long time, and is distant in that you cant relate to the people afflicted, etc. etc.
I just choose not to think about the deaths themselves that way, and thats where we differ I think. :):yes: