Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Mobius on April 26, 2007, 04:37:44 pm
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Another Latin name...it will hopefully attract your attention... :nod:
I want to talk about released full conversion demos and criticize them a bit. I have played both WCS Prologue and BSG Demo. The fact that both releases are standalone is a good thing...this can prevent crashes caused by broken compatabilty with Media VP files and/or FS Open builds I think, but:
I noticed the presence of many GW members that don't even try to play FS and are interested only on BSG(the same is for a handful of HLP members mostly interested on WCS). Everything seems ok for you, but not for me. What are these conversions bringing to the community? They should help making FS popular, not create separate communities within the FreeSpace community. Like for most campaign VP files, these conversion packages contain stuff we already have, a waste of memory. What's wrong in telling whoever is interested on WCS and BSG that they should DL FreeSpace 2 first? They will like FS2 too, we're pretty sure of this.
Also, I noticed that these conversions seem created only for fans of the series the conversions are based on. I have never played a WC and I have never seen an episode of BSG. I hoped the conversions would have introduced their Universes... I was wrong. I wanted to know something about the storyline and now I'm confused. The contrary of what I have expected. This is a big community, we're not all supposed to know WC or BSG storyline backgrounds and we obviously want to play conversions once they're available. I would like the project leaders of both mods to write introductions. Something about the Saga from WCS members and something about the seasons of BSG by the respective mod's members. People that don't know WC or BSG would appreciate something like that. Thanks.
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Another Latin name...it will hopefully attract your attention... :nod:
I want to talk about released full conversion demos and criticize them a bit. I have played both WCS Prologue and BSG Demo. The fact that both releases are standalone is a good thing...this can prevent crashes caused by broken compatabilty with Media VP files and/or FS Open builds I think, but:
I noticed the presence of many GW members that don't even try to play FS and are interested only on BSG(the same is for a handful of HLP members mostly interested on WCS). Everything seems ok for you, but not for me. What are these conversions bringing to the community? They should help making FS popular, not create separate communities within the FreeSpace community. Like for most campaign VP files, these conversion packages contain stuff we already have, a waste of memory. What's wrong in telling whoever is interested on WCS and BSG that they should DL FreeSpace 2 first? They will like FS2 too, we're pretty sure of this.
I don't think these conversions are bad for the FS community, I actually think the opposite. Both conversions states it is based on the FreeSpace 2 Open engine, and so far, a lot of the people
that got to know either of the conversions are getting told how FS2 is a great game, and in turn, get FS2 and enjoy it.
Also, I noticed that these conversions seem created only for fans of the series the conversions are based on. I have never played a WC and I have never seen an episode of BSG. I hoped the conversions would have introduced their Universes... I was wrong. I wanted to know something about the storyline and now I'm confused. The contrary of what I have expected. This is a big community, we're not all supposed to know WC or BSG storyline backgrounds and we obviously want to play conversions once they're available. I would like the project leaders of both mods to write introductions. Something about the Saga from WCS members and something about the seasons of BSG by the respective mod's members. People that don't know WC or BSG would appreciate something like that. Thanks.
The BSG : BtRL demo is sure a bit confusing for people who haven't seen the show, but rest assure that everything will be told in the full release... Hey, a demo is only to get a taste of what is to
come and this is what we have accomplished.... We even have one of our team member who haven't seen a single episode yet of BSG.
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I don't think these conversions are bad for the FS community, I actually think the opposite. Both conversions states it is based on the FreeSpace 2 Open engine, and so far, a lot of the people
that got to know either of the conversions are getting told how FS2 is a great game, and in turn, get FS2 and enjoy it.
But the presence of incredible conversions should encourage people to get FS2. I don't see the point of having standalone mods unless there are issues.
The BSG : BtRL demo is sure a bit confusing for people who haven't seen the show, but rest assure that everything will be told in the full release... Hey, a demo is only to get a taste of what is to
come and this is what we have accomplished.... We even have one of our team member who haven't seen a single episode yet of BSG.
Ok. I'm counting on you.
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So you're saying that we should force people to either A) try to find and buy an 8 year old game (almost impossible), or B) make them download an extra GIG of software just to play one TC that includes (in BTRL's case) only three flyable ships?
And if you haven't seen the show, or played the WC games, why is it our responsibility to make sure you know every detail of both of them (where there are obviously a lot more than can be explained in a simple readme). If you really want to know that bad, go read up on them in Wikipedia. Of course the conversions are made for fans of the originals - what else would we make them for? So we can spend pages explaining to you the current situation of the show/game? No - if you want to play it but are curious about the backstory, go look it up or watch the show, don't rely on us to do all the explaining for you.
On top of that, the conversions are great for the community. We've gotten dozens of new members that simply wouldn't be here without them.
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Considering the amount of computer inept people we've had download the demo, i think having it not come in a convenient package would have A) turned off a lot of people to the demo or B) made people highly confused about if they could get it or not or how to install it. BTRL/ WCS/ SoL i think will definitely increase the popularity of FS2 but forcing it down peoples throats might decrease the amount of users
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So you're saying that we should force people to either A) try to find and buy an 8 year old game (almost impossible), or B) make them download an extra GIG of software just to play one TC that includes (in BTRL's case) only three flyable ships?
"Forcing" is a rude word. If they really want to play a demo... they should DL FS2 as well. A) The SCP has upgraded it, as we all know and B) That's only for the demo. As far as I know, the complete release will be standalone.
And if you haven't seen the show, or played the WC games, why is it our responsibility to make sure you know every detail of both of them (where there are obviously a lot more than can be explained in a simple readme). If you really want to know that bad, go read up on them in Wikipedia. Of course the conversions are made for fans of the originals - what else would we make them for? So we can spend pages explaining to you the current situation of the show/game? No - if you want to play it but are curious about the backstory, go look it up or watch the show, don't rely on us to do all the explaining for you.
I know that...but when I played BtRL I had the sensation of starting halfway in the storyline. I think I will check the Wiki... my point is that I expected some kind of introduction. I bet that many others who played the demo are like me.
On top of that, the conversions are great for the community. We've gotten dozens of new members that simply wouldn't be here without them.
New members active mostly on their "favourite" boards. A few months ago we discussed about a WC coverage, that has been rejected I think...meh...
Considering the amount of computer inept people we've had download the demo, i think having it not come in a convenient package would have A) turned off a lot of people to the demo or B) made people highly confused about if they could get it or not or how to install it. BTRL/ WCS/ SoL i think will definitely increase the popularity of FS2 but forcing it down peoples throats might decrease the amount of users
You have a point...
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"Forcing" is a rude word. If they really want to play a demo... they should DL FS2 as well. A) The SCP has upgraded it, as we all know and B) That's only for the demo. As far as I know, the complete release will be standalone.
It's a rude word but that's what you're asking. You're also cutting off a vast number of people from the FS2 community and the TC's eventual release, because when we release the demo people will go neat! I can download it! Wait, I don't have Freespace 2...oh well, it looks cool. I know that because there is no way in hell I'd download a gig (more like 2 if you include SCP addons) just to play a three mission demo.
I know that...but when I played BtRL I had the sensation of starting halfway in the storyline. I think I will check the Wiki... my point is that I expected some kind of introduction. I bet that many others who played the demo are like me.
No, many others who played the demo were fans of the series - and those who weren't went and looked it up and didn't expect us to explain three years worth of storyline to them.
New members active mostly on their "favourite" boards. A few months ago we discussed about a WC coverage, that has been rejected I think...meh...
So what? If they're here and they're really interested in FS2, then they'll go and play it - if they're not, then they wouldn't play it anyway!
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fs2 is kinda slow going anyway.
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hmm i don't see a tsk tsk head shake smiley.
:blah:
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fs2 is kinda slow going anyway.
Yeah, and all these people working so hard for years on TCs and Campaigns are a testament to it. :wtf:
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According to the HOTU, Wing Commander: The Kilrathi Saga (the first 3 games of the series optimized for Windows) is abandonware, but before posting a link that mods or admins could consider a link to warez I prefer hearing what they think.
BSG shows (don't know which series though) were aired in Italy on Sky this summer, but since I don't have pay-tv I didn't watch them.
There are also dedicated wikis both for WC and BSG.
The *cough* Wing Commander CIC (http://www.wcnews.com/) *cough* hosts a WC encyclopedia (well, actually it's not a wiki, you can't edit that).
And you can find the BSG wiki here (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Main_Page).
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1) I think this is more a topic for General FS than modding as it affects a lot more than the modders amongst us. :)
2) let me make one very important point that no one here has mentioned yet. Downloading FS2 is illegal. Both HLP and GW don't care much about this. We're all of the opinion that it's a greater crime to let FS2 fade away and be forgotten but lets not forget that TCs are not just made for the FS2 community. We want to be able to advertise on the whole internet without fear that the post will be deleted and the user banned for posting warez.
3) I spend a very large amount of time dealing with people who have installed mods incorrectly. Stand alone TCs do not have that problem (Well except on two occasions when people installed the stand alone BtRL to their FS2 folders and unsurprisingly found it didn't work :lol: ). Insisting that everything is installed on FS2 increases the workload of people supporting them. And I doubt any of the team will be happy t hear that.
4) The only reason I haven't added a "Play Freespace - The game that started it all" sticky thread to GW is because frankly I don't think that
a) We have the bandwidth for all the downloads
b) Have the SCP in a suitably easy state to download and install for them.
Turey's installer is great but for something like that I'd want an easily installed and maintained .torrent file and Shivan/Hip's download isn't ready yet.
Now as for the points you mention about accessibility you do actually make a good point there. The demo didn't explain the storyline simply because there wasn't enough content. You are right that a good game should not require the user to have a huge amount of foreknowledge of the show it's based on though. The fanbase for TCs like BtRL, Starfox and WCS is pretty much firmly divided into two camps. Fans of the original who simply want to play in the universe and gamers who simply want to play a good game. And you're right that we should be doing a lot more to reach the second camp. For a start it's the bigger one. :)
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while its true, the current generation of "computer geeks" probibly have never seen a dos prompt, played quake on a 486, or know what a voodoo card is. but if you have 1000 people playing your tc, and maybe out of those you have maybe 5 who go "this is a pretty cool game engine, i want to make my own mod or maybe check out the source" then its definately cool for the community. we have a few more moronic noobs but who knows one day they might become modders or coders. even i at one point was an annoying newb (even thow i dont think that term was around back then), and look at me now. muhahahahaha :D
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I posted this idea on BTRL ill throw it over here as well:
"Well i don't know if their is an easy way to sum up BSG, maybe a campaign intro vid or something. But as for the point about adding more awareness of FS2Open how about a highlight reel? Maybe if HLP put together a standardized trailer showcasing the improvements to FS2Open and maybe a couple snipits of the big Mods, BTRL, SoL, TBP, WCS ect. and had it as a tech room vid in all the FS2 games and mods? That way your gaining intrest for FS2Open and its peripherals without specifically saying "Illegally Download it!!"
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i have my doubts about whether it is actually illegal to download FS2 -
a) it's abandonware
b) the trademarks are probably legaly in abandonment
c) it's original EULA expressly allows making copies
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a) it's abandonware
AFAIK, FS2 is not officially abandonware (yet :D).
But all newbies are our friends, so the EULA still applies, right? :lol:
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1) I think this is more a topic for General FS than modding as it affects a lot more than the modders amongst us. :)
It was my objective :lol:
2) let me make one very important point that no one here has mentioned yet. Downloading FS2 is illegal. Both HLP and GW don't care much about this. We're all of the opinion that it's a greater crime to let FS2 fade away and be forgotten but lets not forget that TCs are not just made for the FS2 community. We want to be able to advertise on the whole internet without fear that the post will be deleted and the user banned for posting warez.
I completely forgot it but...
i have my doubts about whether it is actually illegal to download FS2 -
a) it's abandonware
b) the trademarks are probably legaly in abandonment
c) it's original EULA expressly allows making copies
AFAIK, FS2 is not officially abandonware (yet :D).
???
3) I spend a very large amount of time dealing with people who have installed mods incorrectly. Stand alone TCs do not have that problem (Well except on two occasions when people installed the stand alone BtRL to their FS2 folders and unsurprisingly found it didn't work :lol: ). Insisting that everything is installed on FS2 increases the workload of people supporting them. And I doubt any of the team will be happy t hear that.
That's the only positive aspect of standalone mods.
4) The only reason I haven't added a "Play Freespace - The game that started it all" sticky thread to GW is because frankly I don't think that
a) We have the bandwidth for all the downloads
b) Have the SCP in a suitably easy state to download and install for them.
Turey's installer is great but for something like that I'd want an easily installed and maintained .torrent file and Shivan/Hip's download isn't ready yet.
At least suggest whoever tries to DL BtRL to play FS2 as well. I have recuited to BtRL fans(one is American or English, the other is Italian) and they don't seem interested on FS2. You should encourage them to try the game...that's what I'm asking for...
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I plan to. But not when it means that Razorkiss will get his site taken down due to bandwidth abuse.
Bear in mind that BtRL has had over 100,000 downloads by now. If only 1% of those attempted to download 2gigs worth of FS2 it would be a huge spike in bandwidth usage. Hence the need for a torrent. But it has to be one which is easy to use and we currently don't have one of those. Shivan's is too out of date at the moment.
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Yeah, that would suck :D
But, more seriously...
While I think FS2's engine, especially when SCP-upgraded, is pretty stinking awesome - I've never been all that fond of FS2. Remember, not everyone here started in FS2, and that the people doing total conversions, obviously, like the world that they're creating in.
For instance: our mod, Fringespace.
FS2, Allegiance, and Tachyon all came out within a very short timespan. I own all three, have played all three. I liked Tachyon's flight model much better than the other two. That doesn't mean I completely dislike FS2 - I'm hosting the retail files for Turey's Installer!
However, I'm doing a TC for a game that is my favorite, of all time. While I do appreciate that you enjoy FS2 - I'm not going to force anyone to download it to play my TC - although I will refer them, if they want to play another space sim as well. There's going to be a good half-dozen complete games here, with all of the Total Conversion projects, in a relatively short span of time. Looking at the recent first-person space simulator market, that's pretty darn good.
Liek I said - I do understand your point - but once something is moddable, it's no longer about the original. It's about turning it into as many different things as possible from that original base. Of course, there's going to be improvements to the original - but that is only one of the myriad projects in the works now.
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4) The only reason I haven't added a "Play Freespace - The game that started it all" sticky thread to GW is because frankly I don't think that
a) We have the bandwidth for all the downloads
b) Have the SCP in a suitably easy state to download and install for them.
Turey's installer is great but for something like that I'd want an easily installed and maintained .torrent file and Shivan/Hip's download isn't ready yet.
I plan to. But not when it means that Razorkiss will get his site taken down due to bandwidth abuse.
Bear in mind that BtRL has had over 100,000 downloads by now. If only 1% of those attempted to download 2gigs worth of FS2 it would be a huge spike in bandwidth usage. Hence the need for a torrent. But it has to be one which is easy to use and we currently don't have one of those. Shivan's is too out of date at the moment.
I agree completely. While my Installer is great for our community, we all saw the side effects of too many people using it at the end of March. Originally, it wasn't even supposed to include retail, until I started getting requests from Linux/Mac users who were having a hard time getting the files.
Version 2.0 of Shivan's Pack will alleviate a lot of these problems. If everyone can get their initial download through Shivan, and then use the Installer to update, we'll be able to handle a lot more downloads.
3.7.0 will also help out with the introduction of compressed VPs.
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I plan to. But not when it means that Razorkiss will get his site taken down due to bandwidth abuse.
Bear in mind that BtRL has had over 100,000 downloads by now. If only 1% of those attempted to download 2gigs worth of FS2 it would be a huge spike in bandwidth usage. Hence the need for a torrent. But it has to be one which is easy to use and we currently don't have one of those. Shivan's is too out of date at the moment.
We don't have alternate DLs?!? How is this possible?
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Because finding people with 2GB+ of space, and enough bandwidth to handle over 2.5 TERABYTES of traffic per month isn't easy :D
I have the space, easily - the traffic? That's a LOT, man.
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All FS2 files...compressed...are 2GB+?
Can we separate all files? You included Media VPs?
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I have the retail files only, currently.
I had roughly 2.5 Terabytes downloaded from me, last month.
That's... wow.
With JUST the retail files. If I had everything... that'd be more than insane.
Like karajorma said - a torrent would be better - but that would require seeders.
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im curious about what percentage of freespace data has been replaced by user created content. would be nice if you could play freespace without actually having or needing to download freespace. hard stuff to duplicate would be stuff like cutscenes, missions, animations and voice acting. if you have ambitious people doing mods for bsg and wc, why not do a total conversion for freespace about freespace. or at the very least come up with a partial dataset that has everything for freespace that there hasnt been a replacment made for.
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*points at Inferno* :)
Seriously though although we've replaced the ships, it's not worth replacing things like voice acting really. It wouldn't really be FS if we did.
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*points at Inferno* :)
:D
Seriously though although we've replaced the ships, it's not worth replacing things like voice acting really. It wouldn't really be FS if we did.
But you can remove cutscenes, that can be DLed separately. People interested on FS can DL the game from normal sources, then visit Kosh's site for the cutscenes.
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That would be rather pointless though. There would still be data that was created by :v: in the download.
Nuke is on about removing everything V created so that we can have a legal download of FS2 but I'm saying that without the :v: content it wouldn't be FS2.
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The cutscenes can be DLed separately and they're not that necessary.
About Nuke...well...
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The cutscenes can be DLed separately and they're not that necessary.
I'm aware of that fact. It does not make your point make any more sense though. :p
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Do the packs you mentioned contain cutscenes? They're not as vital as the rest of a normal package. We can reduce the number of odds...it makes sense for me ;)
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What about adding a showcase vid? Does FS2Open have one? I think it would be an easy, and quite effective way to increase awareness of all FS2Open offers. I for one didn't realize FS2 had been improved until i found BTRL and eventually saw the the god awfully awesome Herc and Fenris models. I seriously would love to see a compilation vid of the SCP/HLP improvements plus some of the Mods. Adding such a trailer to all Mods and TCs seems the simplest solution
Or is this something like FSIII that's been kicked around the fire for a long time and become a sore subject
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An FSO demonstration video would be great, I agree.
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Both of Rake's Trailers (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,40477.0.html) were pretty cool (Wish he'd used ambient factor though).
The files are down now but I'm sure I have copies lying about somewhere.
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That would be rather pointless though. There would still be data that was created by :v: in the download.
Nuke is on about removing everything V created so that we can have a legal download of FS2 but I'm saying that without the :v: content it wouldn't be FS2.
and that would be correct. it wouldnt be freespace, it would me at most a cool homage to fs2 and and the very least, total abomination. but it would solve the problem with the legality of downloading freespace.
my alternative idea, which i dont think i made clear enough, is a partial repacking of retail freespace data, all the stuff that doesnt have a substitution the media vps, into a smaller download. files could be converted whenever possible to more acceptable formats (such as ogg or dds) so as to reduce file size. then the download for freespace is reduced to about a third of its original size and is more available to download and has less of a footprint on bandwidth.
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The problem with that is that while it would reduce the footprint it is a bugger to support.
The more different versions of FS2_Open there are out there. the harder it becomes to deal with problems with them. Right now we know that anyone running the game has got Retail FS2 with SCP on top of it. One you start not even being able to make that assumption things become harder. Especially if in a years time someone decides to put out another of these with an even smaller footprint.
And that's before we get to the fact that compiling such a VP without missing files that aren't in the SCP or including duplicates of those that are is a huge task and is unlikely to be bug free.
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Should we suggest, at least, to but the game from eBat, for example?
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We always suggest that you should get FSOpen if you like the TCs. It's up to them as to whether or not they want to get it (as they should be).