Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Nuke on April 29, 2007, 08:44:26 pm
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ok heres what i got:
http://secure.newegg.com/NewVersion/wishlist/PublicWishDetail.asp?WishListNumber=4307974
i will be ordering the case, psu, and drives in a couple weeks, and everything else on a when i have the money basis. absolutely must haves are an sli ready setup, 4 gigs of ram, and at least a dual core. i normally use msi boards but i'm gonna be giving asus a try this time. i'm probably not overclocking anything at this point and i already have my video card, an 8800gts which i bought this fall and plans sometime in the next couple years to buy another.
so far i've selected the intel quad core, mainly due to the performance boost it gives in photoshop and max. however i'm open too look at what amd has. the last 2 machines i've done have been amds and i'm getting good performance out of em. then again i'm not willing to run more than a 600 watt psu. i dont think the house wiring here could handle it. with the intel chip i only need about 500, but i'm doing 6 for a future sli config. im debating whether to go with the quad core 6600 or the dual core 6700. difference being about 200 bucks and some varying performance characteristics. the 6700 seems better for general use, but the 6600 quad gives me extra modding go.
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I assume you won't be using a 32-bit version of Windows XP? They can't handle more than 3GB of RAM.
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I don't get why you need to get a current generation quad-core CPU now when more affordable next-gen quads are just a few months away. It's kinda a waste of money to get a quad-core now. IMHO SLI is a waste of money as well because of all the problems it has. SLI doesn't work natively but requires drivers to support the game. The next generation single card will beat today's SLI anyway, so I don't really see a point to SLI or Crossfire. Single card setup will be more trouble-free and consume less wats.
If you really want to buy that rig now. I'd suggest to buy the cheapest C2D you can find from ebay or something and replace it with the next-gen C2D Penryn quad-core as soon as they become available.
32-bit Windows XP can handle 4GB RAM, but I am not sure if it can do it very efficiently. Vista's better memory management would do better job at that even with 32-bit version though. For 32-bit XP and 4GB or more RAM; http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;888137
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Nice rig, my only question is really why the WD harddrive its only 250GB (Get a Seagate Barracuda instead) ???
And you cant always wait arounf for new technology to arrive since then you would never get anything done, and the newxt generation of graphics card will be awhile since the 8000-series just arrived (Dont know about ATI) and asfar as SLI goes, yes it isent as efficent as you might want but still gives at worst 1/2 performance increase and normally atleast 3/4 (That is if they get the damn drivers fixed for Vista !!!!).
/Dice
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And you cant always wait arounf for new technology to arrive since then you would never get anything done,
In this case waiting for the next gen is a sound advice as Nuke doesn't seem to want anything less than a quad-core. Current gen quad-cores are horribly overpriced and eats watts for lunch.
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And you cant always wait arounf for new technology to arrive since then you would never get anything done,
In this case waiting for the next gen is a sound advice as Nuke doesn't seem to want anything less than a quad-core. Current gen quad-cores are horribly overpriced and eats watts for lunch.
Hmm yeah guess so, dont know when the next gen will come though
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I assume you won't be using a 32-bit version of Windows XP? They can't handle more than 3GB of RAM.
thats good to know, i was debating whether or not to get vista now or wait a little bit. i might add it to my list. as for what version of vista to get, well anything but the stripped down home version. i want one that doesnt give me crap about activation when i want to instal it. thats why my current install of xp is such a mess, i havent nuked my drive in quite some time. i could probibly downgrade to 2 gig for the time being and get vista+2gb later on down the line. though id like my modules to be all of the same model so as not to cause dual channel glitches.
I don't get why you need to get a current generation quad-core CPU now when more affordable next-gen quads are just a few months away. It's kinda a waste of money to get a quad-core now. IMHO SLI is a waste of money as well because of all the problems it has. SLI doesn't work natively but requires drivers to support the game. The next generation single card will beat today's SLI anyway, so I don't really see a point to SLI or Crossfire. Single card setup will be more trouble-free and consume less wats.
If you really want to buy that rig now. I'd suggest to buy the cheapest C2D you can find from ebay or something and replace it with the next-gen C2D Penryn quad-core as soon as they become available.
32-bit Windows XP can handle 4GB RAM, but I am not sure if it can do it very efficiently. Vista's better memory management would do better job at that even with 32-bit version though. For 32-bit XP and 4GB or more RAM; http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;888137
i know the problems with sli, and as ive said in other threads, im more intrested in having a dual setup for multiple monitors. to sort of make a wrap around cockpit style config. something to go with the 3 unit ch control setup i intend to buy when divs come in the fall.
as for the quad, im not entirely sold on it yet. no matter what quad is better, even the new ones amd are coming out with this summer. in the end quad is really too new and the software is too far behind to utilize it. so im still looking at other dual core processors both of the core 2 line and current athlon 64 fx line.
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buying a new rig is like putting money into a dead horse :D
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buying a new rig is like putting money into a dead horse :D
Ahh but atleast a dead horse you can barbeque
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i dont see you eating bits of your PC as food ;)
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Very few games support multiple monitors, and IIRC SLI acceleration (or any hardware acceleration) will only affect one monitor. In general, the only use for multiple monitors is a larger desktop for doing work. Games will not make good use of them.
While WinXP can use more than 3GB (with the addition of a kernel switch at boot time) there is only one application known to actually be affected by it: SQL Server.
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games, no, flight sims? muhahahaha!
i had cfs2 spanned across 2 screens and it worked quite well. actually all flight sims based of fs 98 should be spanable. orbiter while the game window itself cannot be spanned, its mfds can be placed on other monitors. im sure some distros of linux might also help. i should look into fsx, see if it can run multi monitors. there are also other flight sims i can look into as well. from what i understand about sli it can be turned off and in the end leave you with a pair of vid cards, each with 2 dvi ports each. now that i can afford the toys, i might as well buy them :D
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A point... Windows XP 32-bit will support a maximum of ~3gb of RAM with a good video card. The OS can't address the rest of the RAM... it ends up ignoring it. You need either WinXP 64-bit (with nearly no driver support!) or WinVista 64-bit (with alot more driver support especially for the coming future).
Also, buy 2GB kits of RAM... 2GB of DDR2 800 will run you $~90 on the low-end.
Don't forget some Arctic Silver 5 Thermal Grease; it will lower CPU temps even on stock-cooled CPUs. I would finally recommend a different hard drive; Western Digital has some excellent single-platter drives in the 160gb and 320gb flavors... the single-platter drives have a lower ambient temperature and faster average read/write speeds. They outpace every 7200RPM hard drive except Hitachi's 1TB drive (which is ridiculously expensive). The drives have fewer mechanical parts, generally saying they will last longer.
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Supreme Commander supports multi-monitors
My only question is what the heck is a Xion power supply? i've never heard of them. Everything i've ever heard is to put money into a well know manufacturers unit, it'll be more efficient and reliable.
otherwise sweet rig, wanna get me one so i can replace my aging single core P4?
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never heard of them either, but its a modular psu which is about what i wanted. this way i can disconnect cables im not using to avoid having a loose bundle blocking my airflow. newegg seems to rate it well.
thermal grease you say. good idea. i wasnt sure if i wanted to use the stock cooler or not, but i saw a pic of one and it looks pretty beefy. i guess it wouldnt hurt to look around and see what else is available.
i really didnt research hard drives too much either. maybe i should, i guess i was getting tired when i selected it. i dont need hulking storage i barely am using my 160 gig which i believe is only half full. last time i went against all judgement and bought a hitachi.
and the way its looking, vista will also be on my list. just not sure what version. if worst comes to worst il just install linux :D
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Buy OEM everything you can; generally a motherboard package will have most of what you need; generally 2-6 SATA cables, an IDE cable, and a Floppy cable. You have the back-plate for the connections, some include a 1 or 2 brackets for extra USB ports, a firewire bracket, some include a COM1 (serial) bracket, a few have a Parallel (printer) bracket.
Generally, budget boards come with 1 or 2 SATA cables and possibly 1 USB bracket.
One last thing; I would recommend an EPS12V power supply. AMS (American Media Systems) has pretty good power supplies; the least expensive in their class ($56 for 450watt, $90 for 550watt). They're well rated.
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Get this (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139002) power supply.
The antec 900 case is a dust trap so unless you live in an area without much dust I would consider something (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129025) diffrent (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811112132) (assuming the same rough price range). But if you have your heart set on the 900 make sure the version that's being shipped to you has resolved this (http://www.atomicmpc.com.au/forums.asp?s=2&c=9&t=14851) problem.
picture (http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=7507&page=2)
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good to know, but i read somewhere that they were quick to remedy that problem, and the reviews on newegg seem to reflect that.
anyway been looking at other cases in the same price range heres a few ive found.
this one is well rated and has a pair of monstrous 250 mm fans. never heard of the manufacturer though.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811103011
theres this one, only a single 250mm fan but it looks alittle cooler and has an external sata connector on the front panel
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811124121
this one looks totally awesome, however im not too fond of having doors on my computer
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811196021
what all theese cases lack is a means to show off my future sli setup. anyway im starting to think with the mobo and psu i selected, my power cables might not be long enough to reach their connectors if i go with the antec 900. there seems to be one major complaint with the 900 and its cable length. i dont want to be stuck with a system i cant wire because the cables are too short. the problem can be solved with either a new case or new psu.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811103010
something about the jet engine look apeals to me, but i think this case has a few too many bugs.
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now that i can afford the toys, i might as well buy them :D
Trust me - don't waste money on multiple cards for multiple monitors. Go for this (http://www.tomshardware.com/2007/04/10/wall_sized_3d_displays/) instead. Seriously. That kind of 3D display (be it monitor or projector) is incredible. I used to have one, based on a GeForce 2 MX. There was nothing like playing Midtown Madness in real 3D. NOTHING.
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heh quite intresting.
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I'm actually tempted to buy my brother's old 19" CRT off him just so I can hook it up and play things in 3D. I probably won't, mainly because I don't have a regular VGA port anymore, but that's how cool it is. :)
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you know you can buy autostereoscopic flat panels. theyre expensive and they use interlacing but theres no glasses required. just be sure youre running nvidia, i dont think ati supports stereo of any kind.
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Yeahbutno.
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you know you can buy autostereoscopic flat panels. theyre expensive and they use interlacing but theres no glasses required. just be sure youre running nvidia, i dont think ati supports stereo of any kind.
Did you see a price on a 17" monitor? IIRC it's at ~$1000 with a 16ms response, low contrast ratio, weighing about the same as a 17" CRT.
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im gonna put stereoscopy on the shelf for now. best results are with 2 vid cards, 2 projectors + polarized filters and glasses. my brother used to set up av equip in a hospital and showed me the setup. they were used mainly so that doctors could view mri scans in actual 3d for both surgical planning and also to educate the interns.
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The other thing you could do is have a good resolution projector that can do a high hertz at a decent resolution; 75hz at 1024x768, PAL video (NTSC is interlaced; half-resolution vertically). A normal CRT monitor would be great; a CRT does best. You can buy digital glasses so you only need 1 monitor/projector/graphics card.
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I need to get one of those stereo glasses at some point. I've always wanted to give those a try, but didn't know they were that cheap. I can use them with my existing monitor, which does 140hz at a respectable 1280x960.
The projector thing doesn't seem like such a practical idea though. LCD projectors don't refresh fast enough while DLP ones all have that rainbow effect unless you shell out $20000 for a three chip model.
im gonna put stereoscopy on the shelf for now. best results are with 2 vid cards, 2 projectors + polarized filters and glasses. my brother used to set up av equip in a hospital and showed me the setup. they were used mainly so that doctors could view mri scans in actual 3d for both surgical planning and also to educate the interns.
They had a stereo vision setup where I used to work for viewing molecular dynamics simulations, although it was basically a small room with wall-to-wall LCDs on all six sides. It looked great and reacted to your movements around the room, although it only refreshed at something like 15fps and made many people dizzy quickly. :p
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another idea i came up with is whats called a stereo box, you find 2 lcd screens, exactly the same native res and size. then you make a box. cut a screen size hole in the front. on the back and side of that box you mount the lcd screens. then you insert a 2-way mirror diagonally between the corners of the box with a screen on each side. your box needs to be perfectly square and your screens aligned. you need cross-polarized glass in front of the screens as well. hook the monitors up on a dual head vid card or pair of vid cards. the nividia drivers should support this setup natively without any other drivers. you might need to tweak the brightness individually to get the left eye right eye balence right. again youl need cross-polarized glasses.
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I need to get one of those stereo glasses at some point. I've always wanted to give those a try, but didn't know they were that cheap. I can use them with my existing monitor, which does 140hz at a respectable 1280x960.
The projector thing doesn't seem like such a practical idea though. LCD projectors don't refresh fast enough while DLP ones all have that rainbow effect unless you shell out $20000 for a three chip model.
im gonna put stereoscopy on the shelf for now. best results are with 2 vid cards, 2 projectors + polarized filters and glasses. my brother used to set up av equip in a hospital and showed me the setup. they were used mainly so that doctors could view mri scans in actual 3d for both surgical planning and also to educate the interns.
They had a stereo vision setup where I used to work for viewing molecular dynamics simulations, although it was basically a small room with wall-to-wall LCDs on all six sides. It looked great and reacted to your movements around the room, although it only refreshed at something like 15fps and made many people dizzy quickly. :p
You can get away with a $1000 projector if 3D is more important than uber-resolution. Most projectors can do over 70hz at 10x7
Nuke; interesting setup.... can you make a diagram because I Don't quite understand that setup.
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I will say this, waiting for the 'Next Big Thing' is a waste of time in my experience. I'm upgrading my rig soon as well, but I'll probs go for the Core 2 Duo 6600's if that's all that is available and affordable.
The thing is, and I've done it myself, you put off buying things because the 'Next Gen' is only a few months away, then, in a few months, the 'Next Gen' comes out, and not only does it have its own problems that need solving, but there's already another generation of tech on the Horizon.
I tend to find it's best just to get whats available at the time, or you'll be hanging on better stuff for the rest of your life ;)
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Nuke; interesting setup.... can you make a diagram because I Don't quite understand that setup.
it just so happens i modelled the thing in max, see the shots.
this setup projects the left and right screens simultaniously through the same view port. so no need to have supoer refresh. sli would probibly help though, because you will need to draw both screens simultaniously. the way polarized filters work is if you shine light through horizontal filter and a vertical filter, you cant see a thing, but if you shine the light through 2 like filters, light will pass through. without the glasses you will see both images perfectluy overlayed, but with the filters you only can see one screen with one eye and the other with screen the other eye. this essentially does the same thing you get using polarized filters with a pair of projectors.
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Interesting, if I had the time and money, I'd love to experiment with this stuff.
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heh, i just realized that one of those displayes would essentailly be backwards. there needs to be a software or hardware means of fliping the side screen's image so that it displays correctly.
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heh, i just realized that one of those displayes would essentailly be backwards. there needs to be a software or hardware means of fliping the side screen's image so that it displays correctly.
In flight sims, 3D cockpits are what are driving the entire 3D idea; many people will try to afford a 3D display just to play/train flight sims. You can look around at sights for MS FlightSim 9 or 10 and they will have some interesting things; little devices that swap video when its not supported and some cool stuff like the 3D glasses. Also, newegg has the glasses.
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i think the nvidia stereo drivers can flip it. but then again they need to update the things for the 8800 line, i dont think the old ones will work at all. they did finally update the 8800 drivers and i bet the stereo drivers are doe for an update as well. i jusy hope they dont cut support for diy setups like stereo boxes and anaglyphs.
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so i have some money now, but when i went to go buy my case, i find that its not on newegg anymore. i decided against the antec 900 and to get that jet engine of a case but they only have it in silver and dont have the black one anymore. so now im gonna need to pick a different case. grrrr!
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Meh, the jet turbine one looked silly anyways.
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perhaps. i have till monday to pick out a differenct case. its looking like il have to cut some corners on this thing. probibly stick with 2 gigs of ram for now, and drop to the 6700 dual core which actually gets better performance for most programs. but who knows i might be able to wing it.
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yep, ordered the first batch of parts today. case, psu ,hard drive, dvd drive, and an extra fan for good measure. now im out of money, and will enjoy the next 2 weeks of eating nothing but oodles of noodles and steamed rice. :D
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Which case did you end up deciding on?
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turns out they brought the turbine case back in its proper color, black. and seeing as im big on flight sims, no contest :D
im debating wether or not i should use thermal paste on my cpu or just stick with the pad on the stock cooler. its only an extra 10 bucks or so, but my earlyer expieriences with thermal goo arent to plesant. fortunately none of those machines were mine. i have some time to think about it. the rest of my parts will cost about 800 bucks, and i might not be able to afford it on the next paycheck without some sacrifices (as in less ram and no vista). fortunately all thats left is mobo, mem, and cpu, and any minor accessories i might end up getting.
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Uh if you can't afford a tube of Arctic Silver 5, don't get it. The thermal tape will work though not as well as the AS5. Anyways--what was your full parts list?
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same as before, i modified it abit for new part selections. case,psu,extra fan,hd,and dvd burner have all been ordered already.
http://secure.newegg.com/NewVersion/wishlist/PublicWishDetail.asp?WishListNumber=4307974
changes include the faster e6700 dual core rather than the q6600. the quad core has been rated as a hackish implementation of quad, where as the dual core chips actually had the architecture planned out properly. you get about a 30% boost in workstation apps (max, photoshop, video encoding), but the quad has no advantage to gaming.
also i switched to a dual channel memory kit. they seemed to match the model numbers on the qvl for the mobo better. if i cant afford everything on the next paycheck, il only get 1 kit, otherwise il go with the full 4gb (and il have to get vista as well).
i got the silver and the surface cleaner on the list. the arctic silver website seems to have a reasonably good how to pdf. i got other cpus that could stand to be re-interfaced thermally.