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Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Maxwell on June 01, 2007, 11:53:16 am

Title: It would suck to go to jail for this...
Post by: Maxwell on June 01, 2007, 11:53:16 am
http://www.gamespot.com/news/6171789.html

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Earlier this month, state senators in New York approved a bill that would make rating labels on games mandatory just four days after it was introduced. Yesterday, a different gaming bill passed the state's Assembly, five days after it was introduced.

That bill, A8696, would make it a class E felony to sell or rent to minors any game that includes "depictions of depraved violence and indecent images." It would also prohibit the sale of home gaming consoles without parental restriction options and establish an advisory council to appraise the work of the Entertainment Software Rating Board.

Its disturbing how fast politicians can move when it comes to doing silly things.
Title: Re: It would suck to go to jail for this...
Post by: vyper on June 01, 2007, 01:06:08 pm
... yeah so have you guys even noticed the theocracy rising or has the thought of next season and Tony Romo got you all distracted?
Title: Re: It would suck to go to jail for this...
Post by: Nuke on June 01, 2007, 01:33:51 pm
its hard to oppose the bible thumping majority.the democrats are too self centered and stoned to care that freedom is being cast to the incinerator, and the republicans dont seem to know that this is what they are doing. thus is the nature of politics.
Title: Re: It would suck to go to jail for this...
Post by: Janos on June 01, 2007, 02:09:00 pm
Amerika is the Great Satan
Title: Re: It would suck to go to jail for this...
Post by: Nuke on June 01, 2007, 02:14:08 pm
hail satan!
sorry couldnt resist
Title: Re: It would suck to go to jail for this...
Post by: G0atmaster on June 01, 2007, 02:25:41 pm
Ehh?  AFAIK, this has nothing to do with bible-thumping theocrats, and everything to do with misconcieved ideas about violent media and lawmakers feeling the incessant need to do SOMETHING without actually thinking about what they're doing, why, or if it's even necessary.

FYI, Christians play video games too:   www.christiancs.com
Title: Re: It would suck to go to jail for this...
Post by: TrashMan on June 01, 2007, 02:43:54 pm
That we do...that we do... :D
Maby far more than we should... :nervous:
Title: Re: It would suck to go to jail for this...
Post by: Nuclear1 on June 01, 2007, 03:21:53 pm
So wait, I don't get it--passing a bill that actually forces stores to actually pay attention to the ratings on the box and mandating that gaming consoles make parents' jobs a little easier is somehow the work on a theocratic majority acting to shut down the gaming industry?

:blah: Ok...  So now parents can actually do something about their kids playing violent video games--disable or disallow them on the system.  How the hell is that a bad thing?
Title: Re: It would suck to go to jail for this...
Post by: Nuke on June 01, 2007, 03:50:32 pm
im actually starting to get concerned that kids theese days arent getting shown enough realistic violence. all theese politicians are clearly doing is fishing for the parent vote.
Title: Re: It would suck to go to jail for this...
Post by: achtung on June 01, 2007, 04:00:05 pm
I hate people who aren't open with their kids.
Title: Re: It would suck to go to jail for this...
Post by: Nuclear1 on June 01, 2007, 04:08:30 pm
I hate people who aren't open with their kids.

Yeah, but do you show a 10 year old Platoon or Saving Private Ryan?  Same goes with games--it's up to the parents, and every way that can be helped to prevent kids from going around their parents' backs is a help.
Title: Re: It would suck to go to jail for this...
Post by: diceman111 on June 01, 2007, 04:11:00 pm
Well I am not from the US and all that I know about these issues is what have been in some newspapers and magazines here in sweden and on the web.

But I think that it's quite rediculus to force the stores to make sure the person who buys them are old enough, ok I will say that its a good idea with games rated 18+ and similar and I think we actualy got that here in swden (Not sure about that) but in the end it comes down to parenting i mean a kid at 13-14 proberly will have to ask his/her parents for the money to buy a game since the damn things arent cheap (ok not counting in piracy here but the bill wont include that either) so it should really be up to the parent to make sure that their child dosent buy a game rated 16+ if they think its improper.

And besides dont tell me the senators are going to play all the games (or any for that matter) to make sure the rating is right

Also another thing that I have notised is that asoon as there is a bit of sex and or nudity in a game (GTA IV - Hot Coffe) everybody freaks out in america but they didnt really complain when you where blowing up buildings or doing drive by shootings.

Sometimes politicans can be quite silly, thankfully we dont have this problem here in sweden we even had a new party formed during the last election here in sweden the Pirate party or something got a few wotes (some people from ThePirateBay there) acctualy got quite a few votes.



/Dice
Title: Re: It would suck to go to jail for this...
Post by: Nuclear1 on June 01, 2007, 04:18:28 pm
But I think that it's quite rediculus to force the stores to make sure the person who buys them are old enough

How exactly is that different from carding someone buying alcohol or cigarettes?  They're not just pulling this idea out of the sky, y'know.
Title: Re: It would suck to go to jail for this...
Post by: karajorma on June 01, 2007, 06:00:41 pm
For once I agree with you 100% nuclear1 and I'm as liberal as they come.

If you want to buy 18 rated games as a child simply get your guardian to buy them for you. If they say no well you're **** out of luck but at least when you shoot them they can't blame it on Quake. :rolleyes:

 We already have this law for violent/sexually explicit movies and it wasn't the end of everything then. It's not the end of everything now either. Hell if anything this gives people who like 18 rated games much more ammo to tell bible-thumping idiots exactly where to stick it. If they don't like little Johnny coming home with GTA IV then you can simply tell them that the shop is to blame for selling it to him as soon as they try to ban it.

This basically ends Jack Thompsons crusade of stupidity (I'm sure he'll find another one) as you can simply say "18 rated game. If kids are getting hold of it you have to blame the parents"

There is nothing at all wrong with stating that 18 rated games should only be sold to 18 year olds. Maybe the law itself is bad. I haven't read it but I suspect that no one who has commented on it has either. So why the hell is everyone so fired up against it?
Title: Re: It would suck to go to jail for this...
Post by: Dark RevenantX on June 01, 2007, 06:15:18 pm
This is a bad law because nobody had to do anything stupid to make politicians think of it.

Most laws require someone to do something stupid, making the politicians say, "Oh!  This ****ty thing happened!  Let's make a new law to protect our people from this 'new form of danger'!"  This law came about without anyone doing something stupid to cause it.  It's as if the politicians said, "I'm bored.  A war, crashing economy, global warming, and American Idol is just too damn boring.  Say, let's make a new law to 'protect our people from a new form of danger'!  Hmm...  Oh, I know!  Let's restrict video game purchases from minors by a factor of ten!  Yeah, that's a great idea!"
Title: Re: It would suck to go to jail for this...
Post by: Maxwell on June 01, 2007, 06:17:13 pm
So because someones careless with their kid, we all have to jump on the prohibition/censorship bandwagon to compensate?
Despite all the inconveniences weighed on adults the children can still get guns, smokes, booze, porn, drugs, etc...
Adding another hurdle to a stores operations wont change that. What it will do is waste peoples time (and eventually alot of money) solving the wrong end of a problem.

If you start holding parents responsible for raising bad kids, you'll probably do more to curb problems than the last hundred years of censorship has.
Title: Re: It would suck to go to jail for this...
Post by: Nuke on June 01, 2007, 06:29:22 pm
the more corrupt the government, the more laws.
I hate people who aren't open with their kids.

Yeah, but do you show a 10 year old Platoon or Saving Private Ryan?  Same goes with games--it's up to the parents, and every way that can be helped to prevent kids from going around their parents' backs is a help.

id rather my kids (not that i ever intend to produce any more humans) see something like saving private ryan, where they can see the blood, guts, pain and suffering that comes as the consequence of war, than a movie such as (insert name of generic action flick here) where bullets kill instantly, you dont see any blood, and the gun weilding good guys are portrayed as heroes for gunning down all the bad guys. the idea is you want those kids to come out of the movie thinking "violence sucks" and not "that was cool".
Title: Re: It would suck to go to jail for this...
Post by: Polpolion on June 01, 2007, 06:37:26 pm
We Were Soldiers would be good for that category :shaking:.
Title: Re: It would suck to go to jail for this...
Post by: Bobboau on June 01, 2007, 08:33:51 pm
Yeah, but do you show a 10 year old Platoon or Saving Private Ryan?

yes, I thought full metal jacket was an awesome movie when I was 11, still do, I think exposure to these movies led me to becoming more mature faster, and thus a social outcast amongst my peers, causing an entire childhood of horror which left me fearing other humans until I was like 18... violence in media isn't out problem.



So because someones careless with their kid, we all have to jump on the prohibition/censorship bandwagon to compensate?

what the hell are you talking about, this is not censorship, infact now the game devs can probly feel free to realy let lose on the violence and nudity in the games that warent it because they are no longer responsible if someone under age gets ahold of it.
Title: Re: It would suck to go to jail for this...
Post by: Nuclear1 on June 01, 2007, 10:25:23 pm
For once I agree with you 100% nuclear1 and I'm as liberal as they come.

Liberal, conservative, it doesn't really mean anything.  This is a common sense issue, and everyone regardless of what side of the aisle they're on should see this as a step in the right direction.

But glad to know we both see eye-to-eye on something for once.  :)  I'll get the insect screens up for the swarms of locusts anyway. :D

Despite all the inconveniences weighed on adults the children can still get guns, smokes, booze, porn, drugs, etc...
Adding another hurdle to a stores operations wont change that. What it will do is waste peoples time (and eventually alot of money) solving the wrong end of a problem.

True, it won't stop it, but it is one nasty discouragement.  I mean, look, if a kid has to go through the trouble to get a fake ID or otherwise convince somebody of the right age to break the law and get the thing for them, why bother?  Most kids at that age just want to screw around; if it turns out to be more trouble that it could be worth, then there's the discouragement.  The guns thing is an entirely different category, but that's another discussion for another time.

The kids we have to look out for are the ones that will do just that:  go to any extreme to get it.  That's where parents have to be responsible and lay down the law at home.  Which is, of course, where I agree with you on this issue:  parents have to be parents. 

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id rather my kids (not that i ever intend to produce any more humans) see something like saving private ryan, where they can see the blood, guts, pain and suffering that comes as the consequence of war, than a movie such as (insert name of generic action flick here) where bullets kill instantly, you dont see any blood, and the gun weilding good guys are portrayed as heroes for gunning down all the bad guys. the idea is you want those kids to come out of the movie thinking "violence sucks" and not "that was cool".

Interesting, because I 100% agree with you Nuke.  There's a difference between SPR/Platoon and XXX/genericactionflick#49591:  the exact reasons you just stated.  Still, I don't know if I'd want my kids watching SPR at age 10 or so; maybe wait a few years (14/15 or so), then let them have a go at it.  Just my own personal experiences working on that, I guess. :)
Title: Re: It would suck to go to jail for this...
Post by: StarSlayer on June 02, 2007, 12:22:58 am
Anybody notice when the politicians whine about game violence they still site Doom :p .

Ach! ze blood! I'm traumatized!!
(http://www.boilingpoint.com/~jasonyu/cs240/images/doom.jpg)


As for parental controls and selling games based on age IMO its a good idea, and as kara pointed out might insulate the gaming industry from the whole "OMG Timmy played GTA and shot up the police station, lets blame the media!" issue.  Do i think it will end the persistent "lets ignore ****ty parenting and scapegoat somebody else" method of doing things? No, but it will add a buffer... hopefully.
Title: Re: It would suck to go to jail for this...
Post by: Maxwell on June 02, 2007, 01:14:15 am
Unlikely.

Once you admit that games are dangerous enough that they have to be regulated by law, its a short leap to blaming them for every kids misbehavior.

Parents already don't use the existing rating systems on games, which is why the state wants  stores to enforce it.  So I'd say its a safe assumption that any new system wont shield developers any more than the old one did.
Title: Re: It would suck to go to jail for this...
Post by: karajorma on June 03, 2007, 08:44:57 am
For once I agree with you 100% nuclear1 and I'm as liberal as they come.

Liberal, conservative, it doesn't really mean anything.  This is a common sense issue, and everyone regardless of what side of the aisle they're on should see this as a step in the right direction.

But glad to know we both see eye-to-eye on something for once.  :)  I'll get the insect screens up for the swarms of locusts anyway. :D

I know. I felt dirty just saying that I agreed with you. :p

But that was my point. A lot of people were trying to argue with you claiming that this was censorship or vilification of games. It's a bit hard to make the same argument when you have liberals agreeing with you though. :) This isn't censorship at all. If anything it could lead to more violent and bloody games. Because now the onus is no longer on the game producers to keep their games out of children's hands. They can simply say "This is an adult game and someone broke the law to let a kid play it. We're not responsible at all"

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id rather my kids (not that i ever intend to produce any more humans) see something like saving private ryan, where they can see the blood, guts, pain and suffering that comes as the consequence of war, than a movie such as (insert name of generic action flick here) where bullets kill instantly, you dont see any blood, and the gun weilding good guys are portrayed as heroes for gunning down all the bad guys. the idea is you want those kids to come out of the movie thinking "violence sucks" and not "that was cool".

Interesting, because I 100% agree with you Nuke.  There's a difference between SPR/Platoon and XXX/genericactionflick#49591:  the exact reasons you just stated.  Still, I don't know if I'd want my kids watching SPR at age 10 or so; maybe wait a few years (14/15 or so), then let them have a go at it.  Just my own personal experiences working on that, I guess. :)

And that's the important thing. They are your kids. You should have the right to decide when they watch 18 rated movies. You should have the right to decide when you think that they are mature enough. You can do that with movies because laws exist preventing the sale of such movies to kids. Video games however were a huge loophole in that right though. One which hopefully is plugged by this law.

Which is, of course, where I agree with you on this issue:  parents have to be parents.


Exactly. And now you can blame them. Lets say that some teenager goes on a rampage and the media want to blame Doom 3. Now you can blame the parents for giving that child Doom 3. Even if the cause of the neglect is bull**** at least now the right person gets blamed. That's not much progress but do you really expect the politicians/media to stop looking for a scapegoat?

You can't say parents should be parents while simultaneously knocking their legs out from under them over this sort of responsibility. If you do you just give them weasel room to say "My bad parenting is not to blame. I couldn't stop them from playing Doom."
Title: Re: It would suck to go to jail for this...
Post by: Bob-san on June 03, 2007, 02:02:54 pm
Why not make all games with a single piece of "adult" material rated NC200? You must be over 200 years old in order to buy this game.
Title: Re: It would suck to go to jail for this...
Post by: karajorma on June 03, 2007, 02:35:37 pm
Why not make all games with a single piece of "adult" material rated NC200? You must be over 200 years old in order to buy this game.

Cause that would be stupid. :p


Which is why the bible thumpers would all support it.
Title: Re: It would suck to go to jail for this...
Post by: KappaWing on June 03, 2007, 05:33:58 pm
I agree with Swantz and Nuke. Someone I know very well was taught sex ed by his mother in a very matter-of-fact way at age 5, and hes perfectly normal today. Censorship is theocratic in nature.
Title: Re: It would suck to go to jail for this...
Post by: karajorma on June 03, 2007, 05:58:14 pm
So you think that only theocrats have a problem with say 5 year olds watching porn then?

This isn't censorship. If a parent wants their children to play these games then nothing is stopping them from letting them play them. What this does is allow parents who don't want their children to play them the chance to say no.
Title: Re: It would suck to go to jail for this...
Post by: Nuke on June 03, 2007, 06:22:50 pm
censorship is where the media content is edited in order to remove anything which may be considered obscene. ratings arent censorship, there just a way of telling consumers what theyre buying. i have no problem with making it illegal for children to buy adult  products without parental consent. this gives control to the parents, forcing them to be accountable for their actions. then again i dont believe it should be a felony to sell kids copies of quake 4. a misdemeanor woulld suffice, a small fine and a coulple days in jail. but to make it a felony is down right ridiculous. this just shows how ****ed up our judicial system is.
Title: Re: It would suck to go to jail for this...
Post by: Maxwell on June 03, 2007, 06:40:52 pm
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So you think that only theocrats have a problem with say 5 year olds watching porn then?

I'm sure everyone has problems with the notion, but we should also have issues with letting the government sit as judge and jury over whats morally acceptable content.
 
Ratings are not censorship, until you enforce them with law.
Once you add legal liability to this equation then its going to effect what games businesses choose to put on their shelves.  If a store like walmart kicks a fuss about content, that problem is going to reach right back to the money men who pay this industries bills (and they will quickly reach into the game designers crotch area, with the obvious results  :eek:).

The government won't be erasing any adult content from the market.
But if they threaten to stick a product with a bad rating, the producers will do it for them.
Title: Re: It would suck to go to jail for this...
Post by: karajorma on June 03, 2007, 07:22:35 pm
I'm sure everyone has problems with the notion, but we should also have issues with letting the government sit as judge and jury over whats morally acceptable content.
 
Ratings are not censorship, until you enforce them with law.

They still aren't automatically censorship then either.

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Once you add legal liability to this equation then its going to effect what games businesses choose to put on their shelves.  If a store like walmart kicks a fuss about content, that problem is going to reach right back to the money men who pay this industries bills (and they will quickly reach into the game designers crotch area, with the obvious results  :eek:).

The government won't be erasing any adult content from the market.
But if they threaten to stick a product with a bad rating, the producers will do it for them.

Why? That's certainly not having any effect over here in the UK. Lots of films get an 18 rating and it doesn't stop them selling well. It's only in America where they have NC-17 and 18 as different ratings where 18 is seen as box office death.

I'll bet the re-rating of GTA : SA as 18 didn't do its sales much damage. The actual re-rating cost them money but I doubt it would have hurt them much if they had actually launched as an 18 rated game in the first place. Lots of games do that here in the UK.

You already have to rate people when they buy alcohol or cigarettes or guns anyway so Walmart already have the systems in place to check ID. This is just a fuss over nothing.
Title: Re: It would suck to go to jail for this...
Post by: Maxwell on June 03, 2007, 11:14:15 pm
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They still aren't automatically censorship then either.

It leads to the same result.
The walmart debacle in particular has already affected a few titles, forcing their developers to either make a different version of the software or edit out materials.

The rating system does not harm big name titles like a GTA or Halo that have an established fan base or a powerful publisher backing them.  It does the most serious damage to lesser known titles that are tying to break out. The smaller companies that depend on these types of sales will be forced to alter their products.
Add to this problem, the morality of a review board is not always consistent with the morality of the audience.  Which means the next Doom spinoff is likely to go unmolested no matter how high the body count, but if you dare show Alpha 1 smoking a cigarette (or God forbid some Vasudan nipple gets in there) prepare for some rushed editing.  Which is going to affect the freedom of the games makers and the players experience.

Bottom line is what you get is not what the designers delivered and intended to sell to you.
...Which is (de facto) Censorship, and that wont help the little guy.
Title: Re: It would suck to go to jail for this...
Post by: karajorma on June 04, 2007, 05:15:34 am
I'm still not seeing the problem though. If you set out to make an adult game then you know your market is adults. Why are you complaining about a law that restricts you to adults only?

This still isn't censorship. It's the developers choosing to target the audience they want. That's why The Little Mermaid doesn't say **** in every sentence (Although I've heard that Warner Brothers want to make Little Mermaid Xtreme in which she does :lol:).

If you're sticking nipples in your cert 12 game then they probably are there just to titillate and not because you're making Michelangelo's Paint the World Challenge where it might be for artistic reasons.
Title: Re: It would suck to go to jail for this...
Post by: Maxwell on June 04, 2007, 05:58:56 am
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If you set out to make an adult game then you know your market is adults. Why are you complaining about a law that restricts you to adults only?

...because you might not be setting out to make an adult (xxx, murder, politics, drug abuse, etc...) game and you get a nasty phone call from your boss saying "if the ratings board does no approve, you don't get a paycheck".

When your trying to titillate the audience, games being entertainment and all, do you really need more non-gamers looking over your shoulder and passing judgment?
Title: Re: It would suck to go to jail for this...
Post by: karajorma on June 04, 2007, 06:07:25 am
Well then the issue is not the law but the make up of the ratings board then surely?

You're complaining at the wrong target.

Remember that movies have their own ratings board and although you do get the odd bit of stupidity from the studios over that sort of thing by and large they make the kind of movies they want to. They might be by and large bad, formulaic movies but that's not a ratings board issue.
Title: Re: It would suck to go to jail for this...
Post by: Maxwell on June 04, 2007, 07:31:17 am
I said before that its not a big deal if the industry provides a label of contents on the games we buy, we can ignore that tag.  The problem comes in how the state enforces an arbitrary label.
We can debate at which point the contents of a peanut butter jar go from "Crunchy" to "Creamy", but throwing people in jail over the issue takes things to a dangerous level.

The NY bills call for three main things:
1) Establishment of  a council that will decide if the industry run ESRB is a valid rating system and help improve it.
Which suggests the ESRB will have to adopt government standards or be replaced.

2) A mechanism to prevent unauthorized access of software by minors.
This parts vague as most new consoles already come with parental locks (which has some folks thinking they mean an additional layer of protection).

3) Making the sale of games with "indecent images" to minors a felony.
Not only is the wording wide open to interpretation but this also makes the Walmart model a standard for every distributor.

A class E felony comes with a three year Jail sentence  (and, when combined with NY's "three strikes" law, could score you life).
...Unless you rip the cutsenes from your adult game and burn them to DVD, then there is no penalty for selling it to minors.
Title: Re: It would suck to go to jail for this...
Post by: Dark RevenantX on June 04, 2007, 09:08:10 am
I could somewhat agree with the law if it was a misdemeanor, but a freaking FELONY?  So, if you're some store clerk who hands a (tragically single (hypothetical)) 17-year-old the new version of "Leisure Suit Larry," you're going to jail for 3 years, lose your job (and most likely your wife), and have any hope of getting a decent job eradicated (having the class of "felon" on your resume is required by law if, in fact, you are a felon).

They're placing "unauthorized video game sale to minors" in the same category as "vehicular manslaughter of the 2nd degree"
Title: Re: It would suck to go to jail for this...
Post by: Sarkoth on June 04, 2007, 09:21:20 am
We in Germany have to deal with politicans, who try to place even playing violent videogames in the same category as makers and watchers of childporn.

Thats freakin' annoying.

But censorship in any way seems always to represent some lack of ... dealing with with issues.

It's always easy to blame. And actually, this didn't change in history and won't in future either.
Title: Re: It would suck to go to jail for this...
Post by: karajorma on June 04, 2007, 01:05:41 pm
Remember before we go any further I was arguing that the idea of such a law isn't bad. Not that the law itself isn't a poor execution of a good idea. I've not read up on the law and I have little intention of doing so.

Most of the arguments I've seen seem to be against the very idea of a bill making it illegal to sell to minors.

A class E felony comes with a three year Jail sentence  (and, when combined with NY's "three strikes" law, could score you life).

Surely an incentive to actually card the individual then?

Given the ease with which underage people can buy alcohol and cigarettes despite similar prohibitions to the ones you state it's pretty obvious that the danger of getting caught is not a sufficient deterrent against the financial benefits of ignoring the rules.

I doubt that many courts would actually go for the maximum sentence. We're talking about suspended sentences for pretty much everyone convicted.
Title: Re: It would suck to go to jail for this...
Post by: Nuclear1 on June 04, 2007, 02:45:04 pm
They're placing "unauthorized video game sale to minors" in the same category as "vehicular manslaughter of the 2nd degree"
Agreed.  A misdemeanor would do just fine.  While I deplore selling these sorts of video games to minors, it's not really enough to warrant felony charges, is it?

Unless, of course, you really want to get the message across to parents that some video games are bad enough to warrant said charges.  In which case, you've got parents who are-hopefully-more aware of the law and how exactly bad these video games may be for their children.

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But censorship in any way seems always to represent some lack of ... dealing with with issues.
For the thousandth time, this isn't censorship.  There's a very distinct difference between barring the selling of violent video games to minors (what the NY bill is doing) and barring the inclusion of violence or obscene content in video games or barring their creation outright (what censorship actually is). 

Like karajorma said earlier, if anything, this will allow companies to produce more violent video games.  Only now they won't take flak for it, because if a minor ends up playing their game, there's two levels to go through:  the negligent parents, and/or the workers who committed a class E felony to sell the game. 

So really, this is almost the dead opposite of censorship.
Title: Re: It would suck to go to jail for this...
Post by: IceFire on June 04, 2007, 05:24:36 pm
I don't see a huge problem here.  Mandatory ESRB ratings is good...ESRB is a industry standard for gaming and it seems to work quite well.  Its flexible enough to cover the whole range of content that is available without being too ridiculous.  And I don't see a huge problem either with stores preventing 10 year old Charlie from buying the latest 18+ game.  It would then be either the fault of the store for allowing little Charlie to buy it as mentioned before in this thread or the parent for buying the game for him.

I know from personal experience that some parents are totally clueless about what to show their kid and where to take them so this is perfectly fine in my opinion.  I don't like massively restrictive laws and I don't like the calls for a new rating system when the ESRB one seems to work so well and is governed by the industry but this one seems, at least on the surface, to make a fair bit of sense.  The penalty to store owners/workers caught selling to minors should be the same as in the movie theaters...not sure if this part matches up or not.  Don't know a whole lot about the US legal system there.
Title: Re: It would suck to go to jail for this...
Post by: Nuke on June 04, 2007, 05:31:58 pm
i just dont think it should be a felony. a slap on the wrist and a fine would suffice.
Title: Re: It would suck to go to jail for this...
Post by: jr2 on June 04, 2007, 06:02:21 pm
Games don't ruin children.  Bad parents ruin children.  :p
Title: Re: It would suck to go to jail for this...
Post by: IceFire on June 06, 2007, 05:32:05 pm
@Nuke: Yeah thats the part I don't have much understanding about...I realize you guys have Misdemeanor and Felony and that Felony is worse but what the heck "class E" means  I don't know. I'm not an American :)

I think we most/all agree...some sort of punishment is ok for this. What it is I don't know.

@jr2: Its the truth...its so very true.  When you or I or the people down the street have kids they will be the sole responsibility for how those kids turn out.  If they turn out badly then its mine/your/their fault.  No two ways about it. I really hate society at the moment for allowing people to play the blame game and blame everything but themselves...no...sometimes you (figuratively) really are at fault and you should accept the consequences and hopefully learn from the experience.
Title: Re: It would suck to go to jail for this...
Post by: jr2 on June 06, 2007, 06:10:58 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony

EDIT: :lol: look at Google adsense:

(http://pagead2.googlesyndication.com/pagead/imgad?id=CJvx08LG9IW0PxDYBRhPMggrsGRKVDFtiA&ai=BmzJh8DxnRqf3B4PihASuwZXJDN6b3yWCyPjyA8CNtwGAxBMQARgBINHO2QM4AFCBmMi1A2DJjomLwKTUEKABhKW7_gOqAQo0ODU1MTA3MzI0sgESd3d3LmhhcmQtbGlnaHQubmV0ugEJNzI4eDkwX2FzyAEC2gE_aHR0cDovL3d3dy5oYXJkLWxpZ2h0Lm5ldC9mb3J1bXMvaW5kZXgucGhwL3RvcGljLDQ3NDA3Lm5ldy5odG1sgAIBqAMByAMF6AMp6AMT6AOoA_UDAAEAAPUDAAIAAA) (http://pagead2.googlesyndication.com/pagead/iclk?sa=l&ai=BmzJh8DxnRqf3B4PihASuwZXJDN6b3yWCyPjyA8CNtwGAxBMQARgBINHO2QM4AFCBmMi1A2DJjomLwKTUEKABhKW7_gOqAQo0ODU1MTA3MzI0sgESd3d3LmhhcmQtbGlnaHQubmV0ugEJNzI4eDkwX2FzyAEC2gE_aHR0cDovL3d3dy5oYXJkLWxpZ2h0Lm5ldC9mb3J1bXMvaW5kZXgucGhwL3RvcGljLDQ3NDA3Lm5ldy5odG1sgAIBqAMByAMF6AMp6AMT6AOoA_UDAAEAAPUDAAIAAA&num=1&adurl=http://www.convictionfree.com/expunge_your_conviction.htm&client=ca-pub-5824028230276887&nm=3)
Title: Re: It would suck to go to jail for this...
Post by: Sarkoth on June 07, 2007, 02:11:11 am
I had to laugh about 2 minutes about this add.

Good one. ^^
Title: Re: It would suck to go to jail for this...
Post by: Nuclear1 on June 07, 2007, 07:20:02 pm
@Nuke: Yeah thats the part I don't have much understanding about...I realize you guys have Misdemeanor and Felony and that Felony is worse but what the heck "class E" means  I don't know. I'm not an American :)

Misdemeanors are just "little" crimes; vandalism, prostitution, and disorderly conduct, for examples.  You don't really lose much with misdemeanors; you get up to about a year in jail, a fine, or a revocation of your driver's license depending on the crime. 

Felonies are the big crimes.  The classification system allows felonies to be put into different levels of severity; burglarly and drug possession, for example, are a lot less severe than first-degree murder (which is punishable by death in some states) or even voluntary manslaughter.  Class A felonies are the worst (murder, treason, espionage), while Class J aren't (financial crimes like writing bad checks).  Regardless, you lose voting priveleges in most state, licenses are revoked, and you're pretty much barred from holding any job other than a total crap position.

If you ever need a rundown on the American felony system, just rent a season of Law and Order and watch the Order half of each episode; they're actually fairly accurate. :)
Title: Re: It would suck to go to jail for this...
Post by: IceFire on June 07, 2007, 08:16:32 pm
Cheers!  That makes some sense.
Title: Re: It would suck to go to jail for this...
Post by: S-99 on June 08, 2007, 04:56:19 pm
I hate people who aren't open with their kids.

Yeah, but do you show a 10 year old Platoon or Saving Private Ryan?  Same goes with games--it's up to the parents, and every way that can be helped to prevent kids from going around their parents' backs is a help.

Yes you do show platoon and saving private ryan to a 10 year old. You even show terminator and terminator 2 to that kid when he's way younger ;7 Idk, i grew up watching R rated movies all the time(be it good ones). My parents just fast forwarded the sex scenes and the mushy parts. And they were pretty good at showing me what is right and wrong. So i didn't end up being one of those people later in life who's 19 like so many other people in alaska who swear that they have a right to drink alcohol even though state law says you don't have that right until 21.

Yes parents need to be more open with their kids, and actually be part of their development instead of thinking "my kid is happy, i've done enough". Just because their happy doesn't teach them that the san andreas hot coffee mod is basic moral decay, or that special move you can do in WoW can't happen in real life, bla bla bla whatever else.

Another thing i don't understand is parental blocking and censorship, all it took my parents was what they would get mad at for me watching on tv and a spanking to let me know that perhaps some shows are not meant for me, or are bad. Tv's have that stupid v-chip nobody uses, and i'm not going to use it either when i get kids, that's like taking the easy way out and not even teaching your kids. And consoles don't have a v-chip, which is a good thing. You can regulate what goes on a console by what games are bought. Parents just need to do their job. And what's really funny is that stuff that would be M-rated years ago like duke3d or something which has a lot of adult content in it i was playing when i was like 11 and 12. I mean i was already watching action packed R movies when since i was like 3, i could handle the moral decision to not say "*****in'" after i hear it for the first time when i was 11. Duke3d is like the only game that has in it a password parents can set for their kids to disable the boobies in that game. Haven't seen many games with that.