Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Snail on July 10, 2007, 04:33:57 pm
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I saw on the news a while ago that some guys stopped some Chinese people from eating cats by protesting on the internet.
I think this is crap. If you can eat a 2 week old cow or a force-fed goose or whatever, why can't you eat a cat? A cows an animal. So's a cat. Why can't you eat a cat? I just don't get some people. Yes they're cute, but if people want to eat them, what gives you the right to go and stop them (unless you're an armed vegan or something).
The protest was made on the internet and some forum people were able to save these cats. I don't think this community would care if I went and ate a cat. But I've been wrong before. Sorely wrong. Am I wrong now? I hope I'm not, because if you can eat a 2 week old baby cow or whatnot then why not a cat?
BTW, I have not eaten a dog or a cat. I just don't see what gives you the right to stop me if I want to.
Escargot
EDIT:
This thread isn't "do you eat," it's do you think it's okay to "eat..."
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Hmm...well cats are a magnitude of intelligence above a cow...dogs even moreso..
Now I don't like cats (I'm pretty impartial..used to hate them), but I would never eath them.
Does that marginal differnce make a difference? Let's even say it's a huge difference, shall we? What difference does it make how intelliegent a animal is? Suppose cats or sheep could talk and write poetry - even then why NOT eat them? Hell, why not eat humans? They (we) are jsut overglorified mammals anyway...
The point is, you got to draw a line somewhere....
Now personally if I was the one that had to kill a animal to eat it, I would be a vegetarian.
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I suppose the thing is for me is that we breed Cows and Sheep specifically for the purpose of eating them, a Domestic Cat is perfectly capable of surviving in a feral environment, a Domestic sheep, on the other hand, is designed to be killed and eaten, it sounds cruel, but that's several thousand years of crossbreeding for you
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"Hmm...well cats are a magnitude of intelligence above a cow"
and pigs are a magnitude of intelligence above a cat
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sure you can concerned that someone is eating a cat, but protesting about it is overkill. It's not like the guy is going to nuke every cat in existence - if he was, then by all means, kill him! :)
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I would not personally eat a cat, but that's a matter of cultural upbringing and not because it's ethically wrong. Because, frankly, if it's not ethically wrong to eat pigs, it's not ethically wrong to eat cats or for that matter dogs. As Davros pointed out, pigs are a magnitude of intelligence above the rest mentioned, and indeed above pretty much all common household pets that people might find it revolting to think of as a meal.
There is a point of intelligence though where I would consider it wrong to eat an animal. Or for that matter do anything else to it except out of pure nessecity, including keeping it in captivity. I can't really say there's any scientific base for that opinion of mine, but it's there nonetheless - Suffice to say, past a certain point I consider it a sort of "professional courtesy" to not willfully do harm to a species. The number of animals that are intelligent enough that I consider them in that class are very few though, and as far as I know none of them are eaten anyway.
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I suppose the thing is for me is that we breed Cows and Sheep specifically for the purpose of eating them, a Domestic Cat is perfectly capable of surviving in a feral environment, a Domestic sheep, on the other hand, is designed to be killed and eaten, it sounds cruel, but that's several thousand years of crossbreeding for you
It's also a cultural thing though. Our culture breeds cows and sheep for food, while we breed cats and dogs for companionship. I suppose the reason to us is that eating a cat or dog would be like eating a friend... But the Hindu culture holds cows sacred, and won't eat them. They treat them similar to how we treat cats and dogs.
I think it boils down to a cultural thing, not relevant to the animal's intelligence, as it was said that pigs are smarter than dogs, yet we eat the pig, not the dog.
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I suppose the thing is for me is that we breed Cows and Sheep specifically for the purpose of eating them, a Domestic Cat is perfectly capable of surviving in a feral environment, a Domestic sheep, on the other hand, is designed to be killed and eaten, it sounds cruel, but that's several thousand years of crossbreeding for you
It's also a cultural thing though. Our culture breeds cows and sheep for food, while we breed cats and dogs for companionship. I suppose the reason to us is that eating a cat or dog would be like eating a friend... But the Hindu culture holds cows sacred, and won't eat them. They treat them similar to how we treat cats and dogs.
I think it boils down to a cultural thing, not relevant to the animal's intelligence, as it was said that pigs are smarter than dogs, yet we eat the pig, not the dog.
Agreed, I was thinking much the same thing after posting. I don't have a problem with people eating Cats as food, even though I couldn't do it myself, I agree it's not to do with intelligence, but, in many ways, to a Westerner, the idea of eating Cats is the same as the idea of eating Pork is to Judaism, or, as you state, killing a cow to a Hindi.
That's why I don't really hold with complaining about it, if Israel made a statement to the world that we should all stop eating Pork because they don't, then people would see how silly such campaigns are.
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Its intolerance...some things are universal and some things are cultural and people need to understand that there are many many many cultural differences between peoples that we need to respect. Its not generally a good idea to meddle in another peoples affairs...similarly we don't particularly like our own cultures (because there are many on the forum) messed around with either. Obviously there are lines here and I'm very much in favour of intervening in affairs when things like genocide and famine and oppression are involved but leave people be when its a matter of if they eat veggies or cats or chickens or whatever.
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Thing is, cat's don't taste good. All they do is run around, eat, barf it all up on your floor, and then die. Very stringy meat.
Now a good fat cow rump cooked to about medium rare and lathered in bourbon and A-1, that's good eatin'. Just the way nature intended it. :p
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Thing is, cat's don't taste good. All they do is run around, eat, barf it all up on your floor, and then die. Very stringy meat.
You tasted cats? :P
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Thing is, cat's don't taste good. All they do is run around, eat, barf it all up on your floor, and then die. Very stringy meat.
You tasted cats? :P
No, but by comparing one stringy meat to another, I just decided that stringy cat meat is just as bad as stringy beef or chicken. :p
EDIT: And as for the poll, I don't eat either. Cows, chicken, and some types of fish, fine. Lambs, cats, dogs, or any other domesticated animal, no.
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:lol:
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Thing is, cat's don't taste good. All they do is run around, eat, barf it all up on your floor, and then die. Very stringy meat.
You tasted cats? :P
No, but by comparing one stringy meat to another, I just decided that stringy cat meat is just as bad as stringy beef or chicken. :p
EDIT: And as for the poll, I don't eat either. Cows, chicken, and some types of fish, fine. Lambs, cats, dogs, or any other domesticated animal, no.
No pork?
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I eats meat. But i wouldn't eat cats or dogs. Simply because I don't want to.
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incedently I do actualy eat a lot of lamb, there is a local gyros shop, and I am weak to the gyros.
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Hmm...well cats are a magnitude of intelligence above a cow...dogs even moreso..
Most people eat pigs, who are one of the smartest animals out there, after us, and some primates...
Either it should be OK to eat cats, or chinese people should protest against us for eating pigs, cows, chickens, etc.
(And then the horrible bio-industry)
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pigs are a magnitude of intelligence above the rest mentioned, and indeed above pretty much all common household pets
We can't mesure human intelligence accurately on HUMANS (hell, we can't even agrre on what intelligence IS), let alone on animals.
Frankly, IMHO, all int tests are utter crap...worthless.
There is a point of intelligence though where I would consider it wrong to eat an animal. Or for that matter do anything else to it except out of pure nessecity, including keeping it in captivity. I can't really say there's any scientific base for that opinion of mine, but it's there nonetheless - Suffice to say, past a certain point I consider it a sort of "professional courtesy" to not willfully do harm to a species. The number of animals that are intelligent enough that I consider them in that class are very few though, and as far as I know none of them are eaten anyway.
Which animals might that be? I'm rather curios since you say they aren't eaten...
EDIT:
What about eating humans? I hear we taste like chicken..and it happes in nature to boot.
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pigs are a magnitude of intelligence above the rest mentioned, and indeed above pretty much all common household pets
We can't mesure human intelligence accurately on HUMANS (hell, we can't even agrre on what intelligence IS), let alone on animals.
Frankly, IMHO, all int tests are utter crap...worthless.
Just out of curiosity, why did you say that cats and dogs are a magnitude of intelligence above cows then? :p
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I've heard cat soup is quite nice. Or was that dog soup? Ummmmm. Either way one of them is supposedly quite tasty once you can get over the fact you're eating Fifi.
We can't mesure human intelligence accurately on HUMANS (hell, we can't even agrre on what intelligence IS), let alone on animals.
Frankly, IMHO, all int tests are utter crap...worthless.
So wait a second. You start out saying that we should decide what to eat based on intelligence and when someone points out that pigs are the 8th most intelligent animal you suddenly start claiming the tests you brought up to support your earlier argument are worthless. :lol:
Oh you SO deserve your title.
What about eating humans? I hear we taste like chicken..and it happes in nature to boot.
Humans taste like pork. There was a famous case of a butcher selling cut up humans during WWII and passing it off as pork. Admittedly people probably hadn't tasted much pork recently when they got it from him but if it tasted like chicken I suspect someone would have noticed.
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Which animals might that be? I'm rather curios since you say they aren't eaten...
I said that to my knowledge they aren't eaten, just to clear that up so as to preempt anyone claiming that I made a categorical statement when, in fact, I did not :) As for the list: Any of the great apes (including Humans), dolphins (all species, Orcas included), and certain particularly intelligent species of parrots such as the Kea and the African Grey.
Anyway, I'm no expert on the subject, so it's really just my own subjective opinion about which animals seem to exhibit considerable intelligence.
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This thread is fun.
I find it completely ****ing stupid that these people could just stop people from eating cats. Its gay. So very, very gay.
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Just out of curiosity, why did you say that cats and dogs are a magnitude of intelligence above cows then? :p
Observation... allough It might be better said that cats and dogs at least want to live and notice danger, while cows simply walk into the slaughterhouse... I could be wrong tough...
So wait a second. You start out saying that we should decide what to eat based on intelligence and when someone points out that pigs are the 8th most intelligent animal you suddenly start claiming the tests you brought up to support your earlier argument are worthless.
Oh you SO deserve your title.
Did I EVER mantion any tests?
And did I ever claim we should decide based on intelligence? Asking questions is not the same as stating something....
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"Toss me the speech center of the brain!"
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I'd eat cat meat if it tasted good. That particular cat is already dead so it's not very intelligent at that phase anyway... and someone went through the trouble of making food of it so why not. At that point, conversation about the cat's intelligence is a bit moot isn't it?
Whether or not I would condone widespread cat meat industry is a different thing altogether - I don't think eating cats would be economically and ecologically profitable, since carnivores have rather low efficiency when they're growing up - they eat meat themselves, whereas herbivores and omnivores (like pigs, cattle or chicken) grow much faster with way less initial energy from the grain or whatever plants they're eating. In that regard, cat/dog meat industry can and perhaps even should be avoided.
Interestingly, I don't have problems with intelligence as far as pigs are concerned. Probably because of social conditioning. But I would kinda take offense at people starting to industrially grow up, slaughter and sell chimpanzees' or other apes' meat... and I definitely don't condone poaching of apes.
But, in general, I find it way more revolting when people kill any animals and don't eat the meat, than to find eating some particular species significantly more un-appealing than some other.
...Or when people cook and eat living animal. They actually do that in somewhere far east... they take some reasonably sized fish and fry it's lower body in boiling oil while it's still alive. Then they bring it to the table, where it still lives a couple dozen minutes while you pick the meat off it's sides.
You need to be careful not to cut into it's abdominal cavity and guts, though, while you're eating it - that would kill it faster!
And obviously it's disputable whether the fish have enough of a consciousness to experience pain as anything more than a sense amongst others, but honestly, I wouldn't want my meal staring at me and gaping for a breathe on it's plate... :eek2:
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id eat humans before id eat a cat, sheep are ok.
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Sheep are not that intelligent, so they are OK to eat, but cats and dogs etc. are too intelligent AND faithful to humans to eat.
That's my take on it.
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They're only faithful to humans because they're brought up to be in the short term, and on a longer term have had aggression bred out of them. Still, a pack of wild dogs would eat a human quite happily, could they get away with it. And on the other hand, keep a pig as your pet (and some people do) from it's a tiny piglet and it'll be just as faithful as the sweetest dog.
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Sheep are not that intelligent, so they are OK to eat, but cats and dogs etc. are too intelligent AND faithful to humans to eat.
That's my take on it.
Yes but it's a completely cultural take on it. I know I'd probably baulk if someone presented roast suckling dog at the dinner table in the way I would if it was a pig. But the fact is that this is 100% cultural conditioning and I realise that. We're brought up to see dogs and cats as pets and pigs as food. There's nothing really wrong with that but what is wrong is to then tell people who don't have their culture that they are wrong and then to try to justify that view with crappy science about how dogs and cats are too intelligent while tucking into a bacon sandwich.
If you eat pork but don't eat dog then it's almost certainly just due to culture. Accept that other people may come from a different culture and let them enjoy eating dog.
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I'd rather nuke 'em....
Dogs, dolphins & chimps.....horses & cats.. those are inteligent and good natured animals.
Especialy the first 3, since they naturally live in "societeis" (families) and as such form strong bonds.
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Dogs, dolphins & chimps.....horses & cats.. those are inteligent and good natured animals.
Good natured? How do you define 'nature'?
Anyway, it all depends on the meat itself. If cats were good eating, there'd be a much larger market for cats. However, cat meat isn't really all that great, and the small animal means that you don't get much meat per carcass, hence a low profit-per-unit value. I'd be willing to be dollars-to-donuts that there'd be a market for human if our meat wasn't so tough and tasted like rotten pork. Don't be expecting soylent green anytime soon!
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If you eat pork but don't eat dog then it's almost certainly just due to culture. Accept that other people may come from a different culture and let them enjoy eating dog.
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Yes.The only Reason you would need to stop them is if They Started Stealing pets from shelters and peoples houses.
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Same as if someone nicked your Vietnamese pot-bellied pig and tried to make it into bacon.
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Dogs, dolphins & chimps.....horses & cats.. those are inteligent and good natured animals.
And pigs are smarter than dogs and cats.
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I eat snails.
*Looks at snail*
In fact I'm a bit hungry now .....
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I eat Snails too.
Yes, I'm cannibalistic.
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Snails are nice with garlic and butter. This is irrelevant to the discussion.
I think its just culture that defines what is within 'eating limits'. For example, some people eat dogs, grew up eating dogs. So to them there's nothing wrong. Others grow up with dogs as pets, therefore see eating dogs as cruel and barbaric.
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I think its just culture that defines what is within 'eating limits'. For example, some people eat dogs, grew up eating dogs. So to them there's nothing wrong. Others grow up with dogs as pets, therefore see eating dogs as cruel and barbaric.
Exactly. That DOES NOT give you the right to go stop some Chinese guys from eating a few cats. That's the point I'm making here. I am glad HLP isn't a culture-subduing community of ass holes.
And on a side note:
I froze the leekspin and let her hang there looking stupid with a leek in hand. Does it still count as -MENTAL FUN-?
Yes.
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lol. I started it in the backgroud in school and then me and my classmates spend 3 minutes searching for the source of 'that weird sound', i.e the music of leekspin.
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I've just voted for Cats but not sheep for the hell of it. (usually I don't vote in my own polls anyway)
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...Or when people cook and eat living animal. They actually do that in somewhere far east... they take some reasonably sized fish and fry it's lower body in boiling oil while it's still alive. Then they bring it to the table, where it still lives a couple dozen minutes while you pick the meat off it's sides.
Nothing unique. Ever heard how lobsters are "fried"? Haven't you been to Wal-Mart and seen the lobster container? What do you think you're supposed to do when you buy one of those? Normally lobsters are fried in boiling water for 2-3 minutes and then served. Which is why they keep the seafood kitchen out of sight in the nicer restaurants.
Neither sheep nor cats. Although it's not really the "killing" part that I care about. If someone shot me and then served me on a plate, I wouldn't care any more than if they'd just shot me and left me there. What vegans and vegetarians are on about is not the killing of animals, but the conditions they're held in beforehand, which is why noone has any idea what they're talking about. Few people would still eat meat if they spent just a day in a meat plant, but most people would rather not look deeper into the issue and would prefer to stick with society's point of view.
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(...) eat living animal (...)
Nothing unique. Ever heard how lobsters are "fried"? Haven't you been to Wal-Mart and seen the lobster container? What do you think you're supposed to do when you buy one of those? Normally lobsters are fried in boiling water for 2-3 minutes and then served. Which is why they keep the seafood kitchen out of sight in the nicer restaurants.
Never been to Wal-Mart, never seen a lobster container. But I think you're missing the point here - the crabs die all right, they aren't alive any more when they are served - unlike these fish, which are partially fried so that the meat can be eaten while the vital signs remain even at the table.
Anyway, the nervous system of lobsters is pretty much on the same level as scorpions and spiders. Pain is most likely to them a sense amongst others - a warning sign - and they likely don't really have enough resources to suffer from it. But it's difficult to define the difference between pain and suffering.
Neither sheep nor cats. Although it's not really the "killing" part that I care about. If someone shot me and then served me on a plate, I wouldn't care any more than if they'd just shot me and left me there. What vegans and vegetarians are on about is not the killing of animals, but the conditions they're held in beforehand, which is why noone has any idea what they're talking about. Few people would still eat meat if they spent just a day in a meat plant, but most people would rather not look deeper into the issue and would prefer to stick with society's point of view.
See no evil, hear no evil, eat no evil, eh?
Some non-meat-eaters don't eat meat for the reason you mentioned, but there are other reasons as well. Personally, I have to agree on the point of the conditions beforehand bothering me way more than actually using the meat of any animals for food because of some moral*/ethical** dilemma of eating fellow beings *chuckle*. The treatment of higher vertebrates is so industrialized that the stress levels of the poor beasts are likely pretty high.
However, I can't really see that me stopping to eat the meat would have much of an effect to anything the meat industry does.
*Moral dilemma would be thinking if something you do is accepted by others (society). This goes on with a lot of young people in schools, so when someone prominent enough becomes a vegan/vegetarian/whatevertarian, it causes people to follow.
**Ethical dilemma would be thinking if you yourself can accept something that you're about to do. This is much more rare than moral dilemmae.
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I think its just culture that defines what is within 'eating limits'. For example, some people eat dogs, grew up eating dogs. So to them there's nothing wrong. Others grow up with dogs as pets, therefore see eating dogs as cruel and barbaric.
And if some culture decides humans are yummy? On what grounds can you than claim that they can't do that?
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And if some culture decides humans are yummy? On what grounds can you than claim that they can't do that?
The grounds that killing humans is going too far. That's all you ****ing need. And if some dip**** comes and says its their cultural right to eat humans then just ****ing shoot them. :rolleyes:
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Going to far? Sez who?
You have no scientific proof that humans aren't supposed ot be eaten..and that's just the problem. Things like that are allmost allways a thing of morals...and poeple dont' allways have compatable morals.. sadly..
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And if some culture decides humans are yummy? On what grounds can you than claim that they can't do that?
Strictly speaking, we can't. If they go and kill them first instead of waiting for a person to die naturally, we can scream murder and take the moral high ground. But if they're dead anyway and it's ok in their culture to eat their dead companions, we haven't really got a leg to stand on if we denounce it do we?
That was the intellectual argument. Emotionally, I think it's disgusting. But of course, humans also happen to fit into my "too evolved, do not eat (or otherwise harm)" category.
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Going to far? Sez who?
Sez me.
You don't eat live humans. It doesn't matter what the hell you say, it's just going too far. You can come up with some bull**** indicating that humans have all the necessary vitamins and happen to be the ideal all-round healthy food for eating or whatever, but you just can't eat humans (unless they're already dead, some tribes actually still do that). I do not need an explanation that you cannot kill and eat humans.
Some dip****s are ****ing idioitic, you can eat humans, you can kill some random guy on the street and just eat him. Just ****ing bite me.
EDIT: I'm a little tipsy
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And if some culture decides humans are yummy? On what grounds can you than claim that they can't do that?
Strictly speaking, we can't. If they go and kill them first instead of waiting for a person to die naturally, we can scream murder and take the moral high ground. But if they're dead anyway and it's ok in their culture to eat their dead companions, we haven't really got a leg to stand on if we denounce it do we?
That was the intellectual argument. Emotionally, I think it's disgusting. But of course, humans also happen to fit into my "too evolved, do not eat (or otherwise harm)" category.
Mureder? Only if a specific culture sez it is...For them, killing anyone outside the tribe/community might not constitue as murder.
Of course it's disgusting, but *some* might not think that way...and that's the crux of hte matter...
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I do not need an explanation that you cannot kill and eat humans.
Just ****ing bite me.
*Finds that comment a lot funnier that Snail probably intended*
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I suppose the thing is for me is that we breed Cows and Sheep specifically for the purpose of eating them, a Domestic Cat is perfectly capable of surviving in a feral environment, a Domestic sheep, on the other hand, is designed to be killed and eaten, it sounds cruel, but that's several thousand years of crossbreeding for you
What about the domestic pig? They can survive in a natural environment too.
I'd eat any dog with the name fifi
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*Finds that comment a lot funnier that Snail probably intended*
Why?
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Why?
Just ****ing bite me.
Re-evaluate the above statement within the context of this thread.
Laugh heartily. :p
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Lol.
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Snail with lettuce and tatos...mmmmmmmm ;7
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Read the context of the post (cannibalism).
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That's the joke. Telling someone to bite you on a thread about cannibalism is pretty funny. You might as well have told them to sauté you in garlic butter. :)
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Cannibalism is bad m'kay? (http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg15821350.900-warning-cannibalism-is-bad-for-your-health.html) :p
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Yeah but humans cook their food anyway so unless you ordered your dinner rare that's not a huge problem. :p
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Yeah but humans cook their food anyway so unless you ordered your dinner rare that's not a huge problem. :p
Whuh-oh! :nervous:
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That's the joke. Telling someone to bite you on a thread about cannibalism is pretty funny. You might as well have told them to sauté you in garlic butter. :)
Yeah, that was kind of the point...
Cannibalism is bad m'kay? (http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg15821350.900-warning-cannibalism-is-bad-for-your-health.html) :p
Doesn't stop me.