Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: AlphaOne on July 17, 2007, 02:47:09 am
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Oki here is something that I believe would be a very likely direction the GTVA armed forces will take.
I was just thinking of poket destroyers ,small carriers(fleet escort carriers) capable of carying something like 50 spacecrafts.
And the uber size sort of class of warships like SD classes which range from 2.9-4km long) and super carryers capable of carryin ships in excess of 400!
About the poket destroyers they would be able of carryng some 50-80 spacecrafts be about 1.6-1.8 km long. Have and equivalent beam firepower of The Iceni I mean at least 3 BG I was thinking something like 3 BG and 2 slashers. Have good aaaf defences. However they would have a small fighterbay. Also they would have a crew of some 5000. Since they would have to incorporate the most advanced tech available to the GTVA. So they should have the HP of a Hecate which is 100.000 hp.
They would be a lot more manouverable and faster then full size destroyers however while giving out one masive punch. Couple this with new age corvettes and who knows maibe even Iceni class frigates and fleet carriers and you would have one hell of a fleet.
As for the masive SD classes and super carriers you can imagine that they would have in order the SD classes masive beam firepower and very good aaaf defences however very spmall hangar bays for they size maibe 100 spacecrafts perhaps even less. The soul pourpose of these warships would be to engage shivan warships at close range like the Sath and win. They would have to have at least 400.000 HP and be equiped with long range beam cannons . Perhaps newwev generations of beam cannons with added range and damage or at least added damage and improved recharge rates.
As for the Super carriers they would also have at least 200.000 HP maibe more maybe 2 or 4 beam cannons no more and maisve aaaf deences. they would work in cooperation with the SD classes to engage Sath and other heavely infested shivans sistems or engage large shivan forces and win.
Now the smaller classes of warships could be built quite fast and spread across the fleet but the bigger classes would take a while I estimate at least 5 years for the first 2 ships(1 SD and 1 SC) and the later at least 3 years intensive building for each of them. Having 2 projects at once would decrease the time period of building a suficient number of these warships however it would be quite expensive in the short term.
However I do believe they would be excelent aditions to the GTVA arsenal. Of course such an endeavour would not be posible in the medium term since GTVA would mostly be concerned with rebuilding its economy and restoring at least part of they fleets and also the construction of at least one Knossos device. But say 10 or 15 years after Capella they would go ahead with these projects full speed. By that time they would also have reopened he node to Sol.
Sure in order to not waste much time on the drawing boards they would of began R&D development of these new classes maybe some 5 years after Capella but no actual ships beeing built with designs beeing updated as new tech is available.
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I dunno, the Hecate is already a hybrid Carrier and it can only carry 150 ships. Maybe those new Carrier ships will be able to carry like 250 ships. 400 ships seems a little overwhelming. The Sathanas can defeat any ship head on. What the GTVA needs is better bombers. I was hoping that stealth technology would be implemented on bombers. A new class of stealth bombers would emerge carrying a small payload, probably a few Helios, and probably only a single primary slot with 2 gun mounts to save space. They would be useful for making quick strikes against small cruisers and corvettes and get out alive. They would probably have to be very agile as they are lightly armed.
I would agree to having frigate and corvettes as escorts for the carriers. They would try to avoid combat with any heavily armed destroyer and only serve to keep enemy bombers and cruisers away from the carriers. As we have seen, the Shivans have overwhelmingly powerful beams that can destroy most destroyers in one or two hits. The Corvettes and frigates would carry no fighters/bombers in order to maximize weapons capabilities. Due to this new "Space Doctrine," the recently developed Hecates would serve as strike carriers, they would used in smaller battle groups where they can be deployed to skirmish enemy fleets. They would have one or two Corvettes, and a handful of cruisers to guard it. In addition, Hecates can also be used for Fire Missions with the Tag Missiles.
The days of the old heavily armed destroyers would probably come to a close. They will be replaced with cheaper and smaller ships designed specifically for anti-capital ship battles and stealth bombers that can make accurate strikes and return to rearm.
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Well While i do agree with most of what you said i believe that the specified SD armed with long range beams would be able to take on sathanas class ships without a problem. Why well if lets say you have 2 of them concentrating a total of 8 long range beam cannons on a sathanas improved as you like (personaly I would go for better damage faster recharge rate) they would be able to inflict a huge amount of damage on the said sathans perhaps even take it if you thwron in a few wings of bommbers to disable its engines of weapons sistems . Why because by the time the sath would get into its weapons firing range it would be either to badly damaged to pose a serious threat or it would be unable to fire its beams acurate enough in order to smash through the oposing force.
Or you could couple just one SD with a SC to take it out. Whcih would be somewhat safer and faster i believe.
As for the number of ships a Sc would be able to carry remember that the it would not have anything in temrs of beam cannons well it would vahe maybe 2 or 3 but the rest of it aside from aaaf weaponry would be dedicated to carring spacecrafts. Even the Hecate stripped of all its beam cannons would probably bea ble to carri 200 spacecrafts IMO! So a ship which is almost 2 times its size and is a dedicated carrier would easely be able to carri 400 spacerafts.
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About the poket destroyers they would be able of carryng some 50-80 spacecrafts be about 16-18 km long.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Hey no fair it was a tiping mistyake. I will fix it!
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LONG RANGE ARTILLERY - nuff said.
Have 3-4 missile corvettes or long-range beam corvettes - they are faster than a sath and have good and dense AF defenses...they can just run from the Sath and shoot at it untill it's dead.
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Not feasable. Why? Because a corvette with a LRBG would have just one such weapon and a decrease in its number of aaaf turrets. Also you would need what 8 or 9 such ships?? They would be vulnerable from attack from other warships. Also the Sd classes would prove to be faster and more manouverable then sai sathans. Since they would be nowhere near its size.
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Super Artillery Corvettes and Frigates™ that dedicate most of their power to that forward HyperMegaUberHBFGreen won't be well defended. That's why you escort them with fighters, bombers, and warships. Making the artillery ships and their escort fleet is less expensive than making a juggernaut/superdestroyer. Juggernauts and SDs are only really known to be capable of defending themselves from bomber strikes by launching fighters because the point defense turrets will have to be all over the entire ship or godhaxxoruber-effective. Flak cannons are good at poking bombers around, but potential ammo problems and lack of efficiency against bombs can work against it. AAA beams are extremely effective against bombers but aren't so great at stopping a swarm of what they drop and in addition, drains more energy than the standard
superheated potato chip gun blob turret. And of course, everybody knows exactly how horrible the blob turrets are. The SD's need either good escorts or better anti-fighter/bomber weaponry to defend itself. Weak AAA is a great way to pester bombers instead of actually stopping them.
As for the masive SD classes and super carriers you can imagine that they would have in order the SD classes masive beam firepower and very good aaaf defences however very spmall hangar bays for they size maibe 100 spacecrafts perhaps even less. The soul pourpose of these warships would be to engage shivan warships at close range like the Sath and win. They would have to have at least 400.000 HP and be equiped with long range beam cannons. Perhaps newwev generations of beam cannons with added range and damage or at least added damage and improved recharge rates.
If SD's are made only to fight at close range, why do they have long range beams? Do they shoot asteroids in their free time or bombard random planets? Do they just sit around and try to discourage things from attacking it based on size and big beams?
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Not feasable. Why? Because a corvette with a LRBG would have just one such weapon and a decrease in its number of aaaf turrets. Also you would need what 8 or 9 such ships?? They would be vulnerable from attack from other warships. Also the Sd classes would prove to be faster and more manouverable then sai sathans. Since they would be nowhere near its size.
Why a decrease in aaaf turrets? The Deimos has 4 beam turrets - if you replace those 4 with 1 that uses the same ammount of power, you're not loosing any aaf guns.
And secondly, corvettes are faster than destroyers or jugs, so unless they jump right on top of them, they can evade them.
AFAIK, 9 corvettes are still cheaper and easier to produce than 1 jugg.
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well first of all when we are talking beam range that is short range. Long range would be fighter/bommber deployment. At least that is the general concensus.
As for the long range beam cannon covettes whyle i do like the idea the number of ships involved would be quite impresive. I imagine you would have at leat 2 destroyers present in the sistem and at leats halv a dozen other tipe of corvettes or cruisers. Which is quite an impresive display of ships for just one jugg. The same job can be done by just 2 warhips either 2 SD or one SD and one SC. Also these 2 ships could also engage relatively fast any other destroyer class warship present in the sistem. also if the shivans decide to bring in a destroyer and a couple of corvettes to take the jump on GTVA warships they would be very quicly dispatched by the said superior firepower of the SD of the swarms of foghters from the SC.
Either method would eventualy work it is just a matter of how do you want it done. Rmemeber you cant alway group 8 or 9 of these corvettes to take out an enemy stronghold so to speak. Ex: say one or 2 destroyers with they cruiser/corvette escorts . It would be quite an impresive tactical coordination and effort. And we all know that this has not alwais been the GTVA's strongpoint. altough most of the time they get it right.
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Corvettes are cheaper to build, quicker to build, faster, and don't create logistical problems the way ships such as the Colossus do. Less surface area leaves less safe points for bombers to sit around and launch bombs. The loss of individual corvettes and subsystems hurt overall performance less. If you knocked out engines on an SD, the entire thing's immobilized. If its main firepower comes from a forward beam, kiss the huge thing goodbye. Knock out an engine on a few corvettes and you've still got the rest of the pack moving. Knock out the navigation on an SD and it's not going to escape very soon. Knock out the navigation on a few corvettes and you'll still have some that get away.
Also, corvette groups can be in more than one place at a time. Let's say two destroyers are bugging your less-defended assets in different systems. Send an SD to take out one, but reaching the other destroyer eats up time. Send half of your corvettetillery to each destroyer and get them both at the same time before they turn your Random Unguarded Property™ to scrap. If the enemy uses many cruisers in different places, attacking them all at the same time with corvettes finishes the job quicker than using a massive overkill beam salvo on one, moving to the next one, letting loose another massive overkill beam salvo, moving on, etc.
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The problem with corvettes as a mainstay is that they can never undertake independent operations unless they have some form of fighter holding capacity. At the moment they need a base ship to hang around as support and to launch fighters for escort.
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The problem with corvettes as a mainstay is that they can never undertake independent operations unless they have some form of fighter holding capacity. At the moment they need a base ship to hang around as support and to launch fighters for escort.
True, they can't replace bases/destroyers/carriers. My main point was that corvettetillery and frigatillery Look ma, I can invent wordz! is a better way to take out large capital ships compared to sending in even bigger ships.
EDIT: You lose the "if it's big, it scares people into not annoying you" effect, but I'm sure having your ship torn up from 10k away by a bunch of corvettes scares people more than a 5km ship sitting around.
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its a max of 4 km and such a big ship would have other advantages that you can not hope to match by small size warships. If said SD moves into a sistem acompanied by one or 2 hecates or a SC then you can pretty much rest asured that such a sistem will be cleaned up a lot faster then with small groups of ships which would be a lot more vulnerable to cap ship attack's. Hell all it takes is the salvo fire form a ravana to kiss your corvette bye bye. Rememeber that annoing fast recharge rate that shivan beams have? by the time your frigates or corvettes get around to do any significant damage...you lose almost half of your forces.
Rmember the shivans are not so scared when it comes to sending in theyr warships to close range combat. Which by all means is theyr prefere way of dooing things. Sure they also have lots of fighters/bommbers present but if you look at the kill tables most of the ships taken out during the Second Great War by the shivans were close range beam cannon kills.
A SD gooing into a sistem would have no problem in engaging a Ravana and taking out fast enough so that it would not pose much of a problem even if it has lauched 20 or more fighters/bommbers. It's own fighter/bommber and aaaf defences can take care of them. And even if you have half a dozen other warships gooing after the SD (corvettes and cruisers) they would be dispatched very fast by the superior firepower of the SD. Basicly a SD would be considered too much of a temptation for the shivans to resist and by the time they realise that most of the ships they sent were taken out would it would already be too late. Also le us not forget that you would also have at least one destroyer present in the sistem with its cruiser/corvette escort or at the best a SC to crush any oposition in the sistem.
As i said both tactics have they good and bad sides to them it all depends on what you have available at that time and most of all which way you want it done.
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A ships with one single beam?The Colossus is stronger than that.Especially if it has BFGreens for Beam cannons. :P And since they already built one, It would be faster to make a Colossus.A Colossus can own your little Juggernaut.
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Hell all it takes is the salvo fire form a ravana to kiss your corvette bye bye. Rememeber that annoing fast recharge rate that shivan beams have? by the time your frigates or corvettes get around to do any significant damage...you lose almost half of your forces.
Ah, but remember, while the Ravana is busy frying Corvette 1's ass off, Corvette 2, Corvette 3, Corvette 4 and Corvette 5 are buzzing around Mr. Ravana's back yard pummeling him with TerSlash beams. What we're trying to say is that a superdestroyer can only be in one place at any given time (unless its in pieces), but a corvette swarm/group/wing can be in more than one place at once. They're much more venerable, and are harder to disarm. The corvettes will cover each other's back, while a single superdestroyer can have blind spots.
A SD gooing into a sistem would have no problem in engaging a Ravana and taking out fast enough so that it would not pose much of a problem even if it has lauched 20 or more fighters/bommbers. It's own fighter/bommber and aaaf defences can take care of them. And even if you have half a dozen other warships gooing after the SD (corvettes and cruisers) they would be dispatched very fast by the superior firepower of the SD.
Ah, but could a superdestroyer alone take out a Ravana and its attending fleet who are attacking different installations before said installations are destroyed? The answer is no. It would have to nuke Mr. Ravana, recharge warpdrives, attack Rakshasa 1, recharge warpdrives, attack Cain 1, recharge, Cain 2, recharge, etc. etc. A group/wing/swarm of corvettes would be able to destroy these threats simultaneously.
While a superdestroyer may have no problem destroying these threats individually, it would not be able to kill them if they were placed individually and not altogether (well, at least not as fast as a corvette group).
If you have a large fleet of ships all grouped together at a rallying point, then a superdestroyer would probably be the right choice. However, if you have five targets spread out over a system, a force able to divide and conquer would be the better idea.
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True, they can't replace bases/destroyers/carriers. My main point was that corvettetillery and frigatillery Look ma, I can invent wordz! is a better way to take out large capital ships compared to sending in even bigger ships.
EDIT: You lose the "if it's big, it scares people into not annoying you" effect, but I'm sure having your ship torn up from 10k away by a bunch of corvettes scares people more than a 5km ship sitting around.
True..unless you have a 5km long ship that has long-range atrillery ;7 Like the Archangel
EDIT - but both sides have good point.
Each ship type has its' strength and weaknesses and scenarios where it would work better.
The smartest thing I can think of for the GTVA to do is not to limit itself to one policy. Build battleships, atrillery corvettes, carriers, superdestroyers, frigates, specialized ships and jack of all trades. Best to have a lot of cards up your sleeve...then you allways have more options to play..and you're bound to have one fitting for allmost any situation.
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I'm sorry for nitpicking here, but I just can't take reading it anymore:
Poket should be "pocket."
Maibe should be "maybe."
Sistem should be "system."
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I want my last 2 Brain Cells Back. :mad2:
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Did you even have two brain cells to begin with? Stop dreaming. :rolleyes:
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This thread is trully enlightening, what you have just described was the WWII conversion to Carrier fleets. It proves JFK's saying, History does repeat itself.
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That means that another stupid British television program shall capture the minds and hearts of the people.
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That means that another stupid British television program shall capture the minds and hearts of the people.
What television program are you talking about in particular?
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Well you might be right about history repeating itself but each time there are small diferences that dont make it identical so to speak. Such new warship designs would be more then welcomed in the GTVA especialy since they must replace their only true destroyer they have left(the Orion).
Also I believe that such new ships would be designed so that they have masive beam coverage both in the front firing ark and the side firing ark with a trick called as forwardexterior firing ark for they beams. Sure the design would be somewhat diferent from the ones curently available. And not all ships would be designed in such a way but for the Pocket destroyers and some long range artilary corvettes or frigates it would prove to be ideal.
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Such new warship designs would be more then welcomed in the GTVA especialy since they must replace their only true destroyer they have left(the Orion).
Hey, don't forget about the Vasudans! The Hatshepsut and the Typhon P4WN! ;)
Okay, I think that at this point, we're all forgetting the current issues and focusing on the far-off issues of a Third Shivan InvasionTM. I think we all need to remember, that in the age of Post Capella®, only a few years after the Second Shivan InvasionTM, the main threat is Pirates® and their old Hercules or Loki fighters, rather than the ShivansTM and their evil Sathanas juggernauts.
Ships to counter these Pirate® threat is needed. The GTVA® must have lighter cruisers capable of dealing with small-scale fighter threats who are able to keep up with the fastest freighters (like Axem's Cretheus). The GTVA® must also have rapid-deployment fighter carriers to launch fighters to convoys who are under attack.
Well, that's just my two cents about another issue, I guess I'm going a little off topic...
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I'm sorry for nitpicking here, but I just can't take reading it anymore:
Poket should be "pocket."
Maibe should be "maybe."
Sistem should be "system."
Be nice...I don't think English is his first language, and his English is a damn sight better than my Romanian.
One way I see capital ships regaining prominence is effective anti-fighter and anti-bomb defence which will make it worth its cost in construction (like those found in PI). Certainly for the first few years after Capella, their importance will be diminished as the GTVA decreases the scope of its operations. But massive ship and weapons development won't be coming until there's at least a stable economic foundation. Unless the GTVA adopts a "hive" societal model focused only on industry :P
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Yes, the GTVA should focus their efforts on stopping piracy rather than the Shivans for the first few years until its economy is stabilized.
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For rapid fighter bommber deployment to hunt down pirates and enforce the law fleet carries would be ideal. Small carryers capable of 50-80 spacecrafts. Fast agile very good AAAF defences . Since well i do not believe that pirates would be able to come up with anything as powerfull as a Deimos in order to seriously endanger a carrier.
Ir would be chpaer then to send in a full destroyer.
I never said such warship designs would start production right after Capella but rather after some 5-15 years after capella some of these designs should begin to take life. Some of them even sooner like the fleet carriers or escort carriers.
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It would not be cheaper.Because you have to fix the destroyer.And it cost more.A Diemos would get there faster also.
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What are you on about I just said that it would be cheaper to send in a small dedicated carrier then a destroyer so what is there to fix??