Hard Light Productions Forums
Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => FS2 Open Coding - The Source Code Project (SCP) => Topic started by: dude on July 27, 2007, 06:45:20 pm
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ive been playing fs1 since 96. and fs2 in 98. love em both but theres just one thing that really gets to me.
the fs2 AI are worse than the fs1 AI. I remember on several occasions playing fs1 on hard skill level, when the dragon got below 40% it would just TAKE OFF!! and be going at 125 m/s plus every time you hit it with your guns, the ship would bounce sorta. In fs2 the dragon would just turn to you, and die. wouldn't bounce or anything like that.
i play fs1 regularly and silent threat. fs2 not so much because the AI in it are just so dumb.
just got this source code port mode thing. looking very VERY GOOD. i am very impressed with all this work. but something for you port guys to work on. see if you can port the AI from fs1. cause they are way tougher than the fs2 AI.
29/07
i no for some mods you just replace files and put the ones u replaced somewhere else. couldnt i do that when running fs1 port? like repace the ai files? if this seems kinda dumb then say so, dont be all, "YOU IDIOT"
and i have another question. i have quiet a few awesome missions i made for fsm. some where you fly as a shivan scorpion. is there some way i could convert these files to fs2 missions. or will they negate my ability to fly as shivans.
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:welcomered:
Well Fs2 has great mods and the SCP team have made the ship much better.
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The AI is being worked on, but the new features have to be defined by the Mod using it, yes, FS2 AI is famous for it's magnetic wingmen etc, but, alas, changing the AI permanently would effect the performance of the main campaign, so they have to be optional.
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changing the AI permanently would effect the performance of the main campaign, so they have to be optional.
hmm?? i mean only when you load the fs1 port. if i said that i meant it permanent my bad.
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Ah, I see where you said it now, sorry, my brain skipped over that part :)
Tell you what, I'll move this the TVWP Forums, they may be able to give you any idea if anything like that is involved in the plan :)
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ok cause if the fs1 get in there, ill be the first one to download it.
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Shouldn't this be in the SCP forums?
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yea, this should be somewhere besides terran vasudan war. unless your trying to silence my work load im trying to give out :lol:
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LOL Well, I'm not sure, chances are, since the AI script support is already in place, that they'll just tell you to ask the TVWP team. I'm not even certain whether the AI in FS2 really does behave differently, or whether it's simply because of new weapons and ships used.
To be honest, I don't know what's planned for the AI, I just try to do music for TVWP, but Goober5000 is one of the main SCP guys and on the TVWP team, so you'll hopefully hear from him one way or another.
If it doesn't get a reply by tonight, I'll move it to SCP.
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ok thanks :) and beleive me they behave way differently, when the shivan bombers in fs2 are givin an order to bomb a target, they do not defend themselves, even on hard. in fs1, they will defend themselves, and hehe, ive fallen to the nephlim turrents a couple of times.
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The AI is being worked on, but the new features have to be defined by the Mod using it, yes, FS2 AI is famous for it's magnetic wingmen etc, but, alas, changing the AI permanently would effect the performance of the main campaign, so they have to be optional.
I'd say it about time to say "F** off!" to the preformance of the main FS campaign!
So what if it would change the balance of the current mission? theres many ways to go around it. Dificultty settings... Or one can fix the missions...like we don't have the main FS2 campaign with some other fixes and LS nebulas for DL allready?
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MAYBE, JUST MAYBE, people would like to play classic FS2 with new graphics but without screwing up balance? MAYBE.
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Trashman.. just don't
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I'd say it about time to say "F** off!" to the preformance of the main FS campaign!
So what if it would change the balance of the current mission? theres many ways to go around it. Dificultty settings... Or one can fix the missions...like we don't have the main FS2 campaign with some other fixes and LS nebulas for DL allready?
And this, TrashMan, is one of the many reasons why you are not on the SCP.
@dude: There are many differences between the FS1 and FS2 gameplay, and when I notice them, I add a flag to switch between them. If you can provide instructions on how to precisely reproduce this behavior, I'll take a look.
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MAYBE, JUST MAYBE, people would like to play classic FS2 with new graphics but without screwing up balance? MAYBE.
I wonder just how much "balance" (wrong word..difficulty would be a better one) would be affected..the AI is, and allways will be an idiot.
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If you make the AI less stupid you make the game harder. There are more Shivans than GTVA ships on pretty much every mission.
It's really a no-brainer to figure this one out.
As for fixing the missions. Are you volunteering? To do them all? Or are you just making suggestions and expecting some other poor sod to do all the work?
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Its like this- GTVA in a mission maybe a cruiser or a corvette against 50 bombers and 50 fighters with Alpha wing and beta wing.The Shivans also have a destroyer.So why would you want it any harder?
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Aren't allies usually set to higer AI settings?
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Doubt it. Feel free to check the AI setting on every ship in the game to prove me wrong though. :p
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In that vase, wouldn't just setting friendly fihgters to higer AI even things out?
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It's really a no-brainer to figure this one out.
QFT. We've been over this before. Many times. It's too much work for too little reward.
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In that vase, wouldn't just setting friendly fihgters to higer AI even things out?
Go ahead and do it first.
Then we'll add it. No coder is interested in breaking the code if no one is going to fix the missions.
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MAYBE, JUST MAYBE, people would like to play classic FS2 with new graphics but without screwing up balance? MAYBE.
I wonder just how much "balance" (wrong word..difficulty would be a better one) would be affected..the AI is, and allways will be an idiot.
Tell me, TrashMan, have you ever had to do balancing work for missions and tables? It's hard work. Every factor you change screws with every oter factor. A good game balance is a house of cards where every table figure is a card. Guess what happens when you move a few cards? You're talking about taking the cards that make up the very foundation and radically rearranging them.
I'd love to have better AI. I wouldn't love to have to remake all my Starforce missions to compensate.
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Damn... I must have been tired last night, since when did TVWP = Freespace 1 Port :wtf:
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The AI is being worked on, but the new features have to be defined by the Mod using it, yes, FS2 AI is famous for it's magnetic wingmen etc, but, alas, changing the AI permanently would effect the performance of the main campaign, so they have to be optional.
I'd say it about time to say "F** off!" to the preformance of the main FS campaign!
So what if it would change the balance of the current mission? theres many ways to go around it. Dificultty settings... Or one can fix the missions...like we don't have the main FS2 campaign with some other fixes and LS nebulas for DL allready?
Well, I tend to agree with TrashMan, except I'd like a solution, not an "I don't care"... and the solution would be, instead of defining modifications to AI behaviour, etc as being different from default FS2, you just give the option to put a certain file, eg campaignname.fsa (FS AI) with the campaign. If the file is found (the name of the campaign with .fsa extension), then it will be used instead of the AI included inside of the .exe files.
OK, this is where the solution comes in... extract the settings for Retail FS2 behavior to this file. Include it with the FS2 Campaign along with the FS2 SCP .exe's as a FreeSpace2.fsa file.. so even if you get just the .exes (with the changed/upgraded AI), you also get the Retail FS2 fix included. And, if it would be possible to extract the FS1 AI, that would be nice for FSPort.
Whaddya think?
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Why not just chuck all this into ai_profiles.tbl? :wtf:
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That's what I was saying at the start of the thread, there's already a feature for creating Mod-specific ai-behaviour provided by the SCP, but it's down to individual Mods to adjust those profiles to suit their own needs, Vasudan Admiral, for example, made a rather handy AI for our Gunboats in Twisted Infinities, which makes them behave far better than simply trying to make them big bombers or small cruisers.
That's why I moved it to a Mod forum, though, in admittance, I moved it to the wrong Mod forum, but the good intentions were there.... :nervous:
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Ya, so if everything is controlled by ai_profiles.tbl, then all problems are solved, and everyone is happy, right?
You would even have ppl releasing mods to make the main FS2 Campaign less stupid AI-wise. Yay!
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Which is exactly what the SCP have been doing all along.
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It's not even a question of if it's balanced. It'd be fundamentally different from original FS2, and therefore should not be any sort of default behavior. Now, profiles are nice, but I think it would be nice if the FS1 AI were integrated alongside the FS2 ai, and given a commandline option to enable it. I can't imagine you can completely emulate the FS1 AI in some table changes, unless that's really all the FS2 ai is changed from FS1, but I doubt it.
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It's not even a question of if it's balanced. It'd be fundamentally different from original FS2, and therefore should not be any sort of default behavior. Now, profiles are nice, but I think it would be nice if the FS1 AI were integrated alongside the FS2 ai, and given a commandline option to enable it. I can't imagine you can completely emulate the FS1 AI in some table changes, unless that's really all the FS2 ai is changed from FS1, but I doubt it.
id like to give this a try. how would this be done?
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Downloading the source from CVS and doing it yourself or begging a coder to add it to the roadmap. The former is preferred of course :)
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let me restate what i was going for.
on scp, when i choose the fs1 port. can i have it load a file that says, use the fs1 ai??
not fs2 port to fs1 ai.
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Not currently, that's what I was talking about being a nice addition.
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It is now possible to clone the FS1 AI if you can find someone to do it, and then have FS2 use that, thx to Fabian (I think?)'s work on modularizing the AI code. It is not done, only possible to be done, now.
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In that vase, wouldn't just setting friendly fihgters to higer AI even things out?
Nobody knows. Want to do the tests?