Hard Light Productions Forums

General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: TrashMan on August 05, 2007, 12:33:58 pm

Title: Model greed/hogging
Post by: TrashMan on August 05, 2007, 12:33:58 pm
Yup, I allready know this thread will definately NOT make me popular...some people might get offended or take this personally...but I think it has to be said.

Why hog the models?

Some (especially larger) campaign have staff that produced a lof of good looking models, but they keep them under lockdown untill the mod release. Why?
IMHO, to be the first campaign to feature X...or maby they are simply overcompensating for something (bad story? crappy missions?)

My take on it is that ALL models should be put at the disposal of the community - having various models readily available can only help it grow..and not to mention that campiagns and mods would be ready faster - after all, creator don't have to waste time finding somone to make model X or trying to learn to make it themlves..or use older, more crappier models...or even very bad ones.

It feel to me like M$ - you get IE with Windows, wether you want it or not. Something similar is here.. You can only get the models if you DL the campiagn/mod.

Why wait? Hell if you belive your story and your team have made a good campiang, do you really need to jelously guard those models? Or effect? Or backgrounds?
Some of the most populars campaing didn't have practicly no new models.


Dunno... I'm rambling like crazy here, but giving them immediately after tehy are done feels like a right thing to do...for me. :blah:
Title: Re: Model greed/hogging
Post by: Snail on August 05, 2007, 12:35:17 pm
Good idea, but nothing will come out of it.
Title: Re: Model greed/hogging
Post by: Shade on August 05, 2007, 01:03:05 pm
I don't see the problem. It makes perfect sense to me that big mods would keep their main assets to themselves until they release the whole thing. Why? If they release a little here and a little there every time they finish something up, there will be no wow factor once the final product is released, and it will be the lesser for it.

Would "The Sixth Wonder" have been as good a mission if you had already played ten 3rd party missions featuring the Colossus? I doubt it. Would the opening scene in A New Hope have been so amazing if it was an everyday thing for you to see 1.6km long ships sliding across the screen? I doubt it. To deliver the best experience, they simply have to keep some things up their sleeve that will make you go "WOW".

And it's not like they're actively preventing anyone else from making the same models if they feel a bad enough need for them. No features are locked into specific mods, so there's nothing there that others can't replicate given the kind of dedication that they themselves demonstrate.
Title: Re: Model greed/hogging
Post by: Turey on August 05, 2007, 01:04:01 pm
It's for effect. By showing off models only within the campaign, it heightens the effect of them being introduced. For example, what if :v: had released all the FS2 models before releasing FS2? Then, when you saw the Sathi for the first time, it wouldn't be a "HOLY **** WHAT IS THAT?!?!?!?" It'd be a "Ho hum, it's just a Sathi."

You can only get the models if you DL the campiagn/mod.

Actually, you still have to ask before you can use. Even they were released, no one gave you permission to use them for your own campaign.
Title: Re: Model greed/hogging
Post by: TrashMan on August 05, 2007, 01:13:56 pm
That's partially my point...to rely so heavily on the WOW factor...

I don't. All my models have been released for use immediately after they were complete. And no, I don't think my own campaign will lose any atmosphere becoause of it....even if it does lose a tiny bit, it's worth it!
 
We all know how a pegasus looks.. Did Transcend lose anything becouse of it?

Come to think of it, most campaigns that do horde ships still relase screenshots or info on those same ships..so whay not release them alltogehter? If we allready know how they look and have a general idea about their preformance...
Title: Re: Model greed/hogging
Post by: castor on August 05, 2007, 01:20:38 pm
So... what could you do with these models, not knowing what their history, purpose and role in the not-yet-released mod will be?
Title: Re: Model greed/hogging
Post by: Shade on August 05, 2007, 01:23:57 pm
Who says they rely heavily on it? Wow factor and a thrilling storyline are not exclusive, and can complement eachother very well. And no screenshots, descriptions or even videos can really do justice to the feel of actually encountering those things in-game with yourself at the center of the action.

They are comitted to delivering the best experience they can, and to achieve that, some things have to be kept under wraps until the time is right.
Title: Re: Model greed/hogging
Post by: CP5670 on August 05, 2007, 01:29:31 pm
I think one problem with hoarding models, effects and so on is that a lot of campaign projects get some models finished but gradually fade away before the missions are done. The models are then lost, as the staff will rarely admit that the campaign is going nowhere and it's effectively abandoned only when they simply disappear from the community over time.
Title: Re: Model greed/hogging
Post by: Snail on August 05, 2007, 01:35:26 pm
I think one problem with hoarding models, effects and so on is that a lot of campaign projects get some models finished but gradually fade away before the missions are done. The models are then lost, as the staff will rarely admit that the campaign is going nowhere and it's effectively abandoned only when they simply disappear from the community over time.

CP5670, I think you are one of the smartest people in the community.
Title: Re: Model greed/hogging
Post by: Unknown Target on August 05, 2007, 02:08:42 pm
I think that if a project dies, it would be nice if they released their models for public use - but I see no reason why all models should be released. Modelers work hard on their models, so it's their choice in the first place, but after that, like everyone's been saying, there's no "wow" factor in the campaign when they're introduced. In fact, if  campaign A makes a model, and releases it, and campaign B picks it up and gets finished/released first, then everyone who played campaign B first would see the model in A and be like "Oh, there's the such and such from the other campaign" - so you lose the "first imprint" rights of the model, where that model is associated with your campaign first and foremost.

EDIT: Do we have a used model repository? I forget.
Title: Re: Model greed/hogging
Post by: akenbosch on August 05, 2007, 02:20:03 pm
i believe that the modeler can release whattever he wants, but should consult the project lead first.
Title: Re: Model greed/hogging
Post by: Snail on August 05, 2007, 02:21:43 pm
i believe that the modeler can release whattever he wants, but should consult the project lead first.

Duh, or else Raven would release the high-poly -- Ooops. ;)
Title: Re: Model greed/hogging
Post by: akenbosch on August 05, 2007, 02:22:43 pm
and project leads can release whatever they want, but must consult the modeler first.
Title: Re: Model greed/hogging
Post by: Snail on August 05, 2007, 02:23:36 pm
and project leads can release whatever they want, but must consult the modeler first.

Why? They're working FOR the Project Lead.
Title: Re: Model greed/hogging
Post by: akenbosch on August 05, 2007, 02:24:24 pm
but its their model. whats the project lead going to do about that?
Title: Re: Model greed/hogging
Post by: Snail on August 05, 2007, 02:25:35 pm
Why work for the project lead if you're not gunna let them use your stuff? :wtf:
Title: Re: Model greed/hogging
Post by: akenbosch on August 05, 2007, 02:36:43 pm
why model for the project lead if they're going to just release your stuff before the project even has a demo?
Title: Re: Model greed/hogging
Post by: Snail on August 05, 2007, 02:38:46 pm
why model for the project lead if they're going to just release your stuff before the project even has a demo?

Well only if TrashMan's the project lead.
Title: Re: Model greed/hogging
Post by: TrashMan on August 05, 2007, 02:49:34 pm
why model for the project lead if they're going to just release your stuff before the project even has a demo?

A counter-question:
Why model for the project lead if he's gonna keep your awensome model in the dark?

As I said - It's more of a personal choice. I can't and woouldn't want to force anyone to release their models. I do however encourage them to do it.

I love modeling. And I love giving those models out to be used. And modified. And re-textured if need be. One doesn't even have to ask for permission - it's a given from me.
Why? Becosue that's the purpose of  the models. To be used as much as possible. To be seen as much as possible. Why keep it hidden? My campiagn might die tomorrow.. *I* could die tomorrow for all I know..
And those models can only help the community, not hinder it.

I don't need no wow factor. I don't need models associated with my campaign. Feels like a cheap marketing gimmick.
If the story, atmosphere and fredding are good enough the campiagn will be known and played. Even if it's a miserable faliure, the models will rise again in another campaign.

WEll...enough rambling for today  :p
Title: Re: Model greed/hogging
Post by: akenbosch on August 05, 2007, 02:52:33 pm
RoR4 used models we've all seen before, heck, it used a cruiser we've all seen before. i still got alot of "WOW" factor...
Title: Re: Model greed/hogging
Post by: Snail on August 05, 2007, 02:58:22 pm
RoR4 used models we've all seen before, heck, it used a cruiser we've all seen before. i still got alot of "WOW" factor...

Especially in the INFA engine. :D
Title: Re: Model greed/hogging
Post by: akenbosch on August 05, 2007, 08:53:18 pm
it doesent use the INFA engine.
Title: Re: Model greed/hogging
Post by: CP5670 on August 06, 2007, 02:08:05 am
I think one problem with hoarding models, effects and so on is that a lot of campaign projects get some models finished but gradually fade away before the missions are done. The models are then lost, as the staff will rarely admit that the campaign is going nowhere and it's effectively abandoned only when they simply disappear from the community over time.

CP5670, I think you are one of the smartest people in the community.

Thanks, but...you know what I'm doing in real life or something? My post there doesn't seem to be anything out of the ordinary. :p
Title: Re: Model greed/hogging
Post by: achtung on August 06, 2007, 03:38:53 am
I think one problem with hoarding models, effects and so on is that a lot of campaign projects get some models finished but gradually fade away before the missions are done. The models are then lost, as the staff will rarely admit that the campaign is going nowhere and it's effectively abandoned only when they simply disappear from the community over time.

CP5670, I think you are one of the smartest people in the community.

Thanks, but...you know what I'm doing in real life or something? My post there doesn't seem to be anything out of the ordinary. :p

I looked at the stuff on your site the other day and I came across your resume.  I must say I was impressed.  :p
Title: Re: Model greed/hogging
Post by: Snail on August 06, 2007, 05:59:25 am
it doesent use the INFA engine.

It works with the standalone version of INFA. ;)
Title: Re: Model greed/hogging
Post by: CP5670 on August 06, 2007, 01:12:14 pm
I looked at the stuff on your site the other day and I came across your resume.  I must say I was impressed.  :p

What resume?

[edit] oh, I guess you mean this (http://cp.nukelol.com/Resume.doc). I moved a bunch of random stuff from my ISP webspace over to your server a week ago, just to keep everything in one place. I need to have that up somewhere for various things I'm applying to.
Title: Re: Model greed/hogging
Post by: Getter Robo G on August 06, 2007, 01:41:52 pm
Sounds like someone's feeling a bit of mortality eh?

No worries, it happens every few years/decades. You get used to it... Mostly...  :p

My last breath will probably be "Storm Attacker (Gasp)!"  :lol:
Title: Re: Model greed/hogging
Post by: CP5670 on August 06, 2007, 02:50:26 pm
If you are referring to me, I'm not exactly old. :p
Title: Re: Model greed/hogging
Post by: TrashMan on August 06, 2007, 03:05:27 pm
Havn't we veered off topic a bit?

Well..was wondering if this thread had any effect at all...anyone planing on releasing some models soon? :D
Title: Re: Model greed/hogging
Post by: CP5670 on August 06, 2007, 03:25:35 pm
I doubt it would influence any projects currently in progress. As I said, nobody wants to consider the possibility that their campaign might never be released, and they want to maximize the "wow factor" that Shade mentioned. (I agree with you that these things usually aren't very important if the missions are good, but many campaign heads think otherwise)
Title: Re: Model greed/hogging
Post by: Getter Robo G on August 06, 2007, 05:17:07 pm
I sent a note to one of the 158th guys (no reply)...

Let's start with projects like that... Not saying we need to hold their feet to the fire, but OTT set an example.
It would be nice if we could actually contact one fo them to see if any of the files could be "saved" for the community. Credited as always...
Title: Re: Model greed/hogging
Post by: TrashMan on August 06, 2007, 05:32:43 pm
All I'm saying it would be a great boost to the community as a whole.. 
Some modders (like me) work on several projects. If I don't have to make every ship for my own campaign from scratch (which has priority over other projects) then I would have more time to make ships for other projects (I know..I know.. Towlyn, GRG.. no, the ships are not done... I can hardly bring myself to make the ships I need these days.. :sigh:.).

consequently, more projects would move faster....
Title: Re: Model greed/hogging
Post by: Mobius on August 06, 2007, 06:26:20 pm
Let's start with projects like that... Not saying we need to hold their feet to the fire, but OTT set an example.
It would be nice if we could actually contact one fo them to see if any of the files could be "saved" for the community. Credited as always...

Time ago, Woomeister made the table entry of the Gaia public.
Title: Re: Model greed/hogging
Post by: Darius on August 07, 2007, 08:14:58 am
There were several ships from the "Design a Destroyer" thread that got lost as well, destined never to be used.