Hard Light Productions Forums
Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => FS2 Open Coding - The Source Code Project (SCP) => Topic started by: mithrantir on September 02, 2007, 01:58:46 pm
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Hello to everyone. After congratulating you for all the magnificent work you have done on freespace, because this is seriously a remarkable game, i would like to ask something about the GNU/GPL license you are using.
First of all, i would like to say the "story" of it. I found out about FS2_Open from my friend Soulstorm, who has been talking about it all the time, and when there was a review of the project in a greek magazine, i decided to give it a try. Well, i loved it, and began giving it to friends and all that right away.
The thing is, that i am starting to sell some network cards here in greece (Killer NIC, some of you probably heard of it here and there), and i would like to give FS2_Open CDs with it, (for free, of course, i am do not wish to make money out of an open source project or anything like that, all i want to do is help spread the world) as a kind of "gift", so that people get to know it. What i would like to ask is (since i am no lawyer and i have no idea about all that stuff) if the license you use allows me to give FS2_Open CDs together with the Killer NICs i will be selling, or if i could have some kind of permission from you guys to spread the world about FS2_Open
That's all, and once again, great job to all of you.
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It's not licensed under the GPL (which you can read about here (http://www.fsf.org/licensing/licenses/gpl.html)). The license under which the FS2 source is was released is as such:
Copyright (C) Volition, Inc. 1999. All rights reserved.
All source code herein is the property of Volition, Inc. You may not sell
or otherwise commercially exploit the source or things you created based on the
source.
Also, this only covers the source code, not the data for the game. The game data is not free and cannot legally be distributed.
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Indeed. You can distribute SCP builds as much as you want (provided it's for free), but media and models are still owned by Interplay.
You might get around this by including Turey's online installer though (assuming he's ok with that), and perhaps the MediaVPs, .ogg cutscenes, some campaigns, and the MP mission pack as well to reduce download times and bandwidth use for his host. Those could be considered fan-made upgrades and as such are much less likely to draw the ire of Interplay than distributing the actual game data.
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Which brings us to the point that I ask:
Since the greek magazine mithrantir is talking about distributes the game data and all available mods, isn't this illegal? However, it is being distributed in a national scale! The FS2 Source was released under this license, however this license doesn't cover the SCP project, which is done by you, people, or am I wrong? And even if it is, it says not commercially exploit things based on the source, but mithrantir does not wish to do so.
And let's not forget that Turey's installer freely downloads game data separately, so, isn't it possible to distribute a package of only the necessary files to play FS2_Open?
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I don't think Interplay is that interested in FreeSpace anymore. If they objected distributing the game for free, they would have surely demanded HotU to remove FS2 from their site. But I just checked and it still is there and has been for quite some time.
Edit: Oh and, mithrantir
:welcomeblue:
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I think "side bargains" and such (you know, the stuff you get ABSOLUTELY FREE OF CHARGE when you buy something else) fall into commercial category as long as you receive payment for the package... I suppose it's seen so that the customer pays for everything he/she receives. So if you include FS2_Open into something you're selling, even as a "free" additional part of the package, it could be considered "commercial exploitation".
At least in the letter of the law, if not in the spirit of it. So I'd be very wary of doing that. But I'm not a jurist of my education, so I may be completely wrong. :shaking: :nervous:
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Yeh. We be needing lawyers here.
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Hello to everyone. After congratulating you for all the magnificent work you have done on freespace, because this is seriously a remarkable game, i would like to ask something about the GNU/GPL license you are using.
First of all, i would like to say the "story" of it. I found out about FS2_Open from my friend Soulstorm, who has been talking about it all the time, and when there was a review of the project in a greek magazine, i decided to give it a try. Well, i loved it, and began giving it to friends and all that right away.
The thing is, that i am starting to sell some network cards here in greece (Killer NIC, some of you probably heard of it here and there), and i would like to give FS2_Open CDs with it, (for free, of course, i am do not wish to make money out of an open source project or anything like that, all i want to do is help spread the world) as a kind of "gift", so that people get to know it. What i would like to ask is (since i am no lawyer and i have no idea about all that stuff) if the license you use allows me to give FS2_Open CDs together with the Killer NICs i will be selling, or if i could have some kind of permission from you guys to spread the world about FS2_Open
That's all, and once again, great job to all of you.
I think to get around this, you just have a bin of FS SCP DVDs on the side, with a sign that says "Free - take one!" or similar. Oh, and distribution of FS is allowed to your "friends" and "acquaintances", read the EULA. :p
"This software product, FreeSpace 2 (the "Software"), is intended solely for your personal noncommercial home entertainment use. You may not decompile, reverse engineer, or disassemble the Software, except as permitted by law. Interplay Productions and Volition, Inc. retain all rights and title in the Software including all intellectual property rights embodied therein and derivatives thereof. You are granted a revocable, nonassignable limited license to create derivative works of this Software solely for your own personal noncommercial home entertainment use and may publicly display such derivative works to the extent specifically authorized by Interplay in writing. A copy of this authorization, if any, will be provided on Interplay's World Wide Web site, located at http://www.interplay.com, or by contacting the legal department of Interplay Productions in the US at (949) 553-6655. The Software, including, without limitation, all code, data structures, characters, images, sounds, text, screens, game play, derivative works and all other elements of the Software may not be copied (except as provided below), resold, rented, leased, distributed (electronically or otherwise), used on pay-per-play, coin-op or other for-charge basis, or for any commercial purpose. You may make copies of the Software for your personal noncommercial home entertainment use and to give to friends and acquaintances on a no cost noncommercial basis. This limited right to copy the Software expressly excludes any copying or distribution of the Software on a commercial basis, including, without limitation, bundling the product with any other product or service and any give away of the Software in connection with another product or service. Any permissions granted herein are provided on a temporary basis and can be withdrawn by Interplay Productions at any time. All rights not expressly granted are reserved.
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oh, thank you all for the replies, and so fast too :)
actually, its an e-shop, so it couldnt be like that. perhaps i could just send the cds with the products and say "woops, it slipped in the box" or "hey, take this one, and if you dont want it just throw it a way" or sth? :P
hm... i wonder what i can do.
maybe if i put a checkbox with a "would you like an FS2_Open CD for free?" on the website it could be legal or something?
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I would not mix giving FS2(_Open) to "friends and aquaintainces" with any kind of business, to be honest...
I understand that you would be doing this out of goodwill to spread the gospel of FS2_Open rather than any dollarsigns in your eyes, but it's a legal quagmire to tread upon, so I would just avoid it for good, and keep the Mission in the private life.
But if you still want to spread the word and take the risk of attracting some shape or form of legal attention... perhaps you could print information sheets that contain some sexy graphics and comprehendable instructions on how to get your hands on the game as well as the enhancements, and slip them in the packages? If people are interested, they just need to get the stuff(TM) and be done with it.
With connection speeds getting faster and faster all around, more and more people can simply download the content.
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Distribute The Babylon Project, Wing Commander Saga and Beyond the Red Line instead.
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Although they shouldn't be bundled with commercial products either since they use the source code derived executable...
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read the EULA. :p
Any permissions granted herein are provided on a temporary basis and can be withdrawn by Interplay Productions at any time. All rights not expressly granted are reserved.
Fixed.
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The thing is, that i am starting to sell some network cards here in greece (Killer NIC, some of you probably heard of it here and there)
It might not be a good idea to spread the word of FS and HLP to people stupid enough to buy that thing. :D
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read the EULA. :p
Any permissions granted herein are provided on a temporary basis and can be withdrawn by Interplay Productions at any time. All rights not expressly granted are reserved.
Fixed.
OK:
Would you please point me to where Interplay has withdrawn its authorization?!? Use it while you can, dildo (sorry, not meaning to be overly rude)... If they haven't said you can't, and you are all quivering in your boots like they already have issued a C&D or retracted their permission, then they have won. What's the point of withdrawing the permission, if the community won't distribute anyways? They've won without firing the only shot they'd need to win (well actually lose, but w/e). I don't mean to single you out, Turey, but you were the one who posted, so :p... you know I like you anyways.. (anyone who makes a stupid comment about that statement will be flamed by The Mail Man... you know what I mean, don't pretend you don't)
In sociology and in popular culture, interpersonal relationships involve social associations, connections, or affiliations between two or more people. These people may interact overtly or covertly; they may operate face-to-face or they may remain effectively unknown to each other — such as those in a virtual community who may maintain anonymity and not socialize together outside of a chat room.
I dare anyone to try to talk their way around that definition.
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"This software product, FreeSpace 2 (the "Software"), is intended solely for your personal noncommercial home entertainment use. You may not decompile, reverse engineer, or disassemble the Software, except as permitted by law. Interplay Productions and Volition, Inc. retain all rights and title in the Software including all intellectual property rights embodied therein and derivatives thereof. You are granted a revocable, nonassignable limited license to create derivative works of this Software solely for your own personal noncommercial home entertainment use and may publicly display such derivative works to the extent specifically authorized by Interplay in writing. A copy of this authorization, if any, will be provided on Interplay's World Wide Web site, located at http://www.interplay.com, or by contacting the legal department of Interplay Productions in the US at (949) 553-6655. The Software, including, without limitation, all code, data structures, characters, images, sounds, text, screens, game play, derivative works and all other elements of the Software may not be copied (except as provided below), resold, rented, leased, distributed (electronically or otherwise), used on pay-per-play, coin-op or other for-charge basis, or for any commercial purpose. You may make copies of the Software for your personal noncommercial home entertainment use and to give to friends and acquaintances on a no cost noncommercial basis. This limited right to copy the Software expressly excludes any copying or distribution of the Software on a commercial basis, including, without limitation, bundling the product with any other product or service and any give away of the Software in connection with another product or service. Any permissions granted herein are provided on a temporary basis and can be withdrawn by Interplay Productions at any time. All rights not expressly granted are reserved.
Sorry, just had to point out that you missed highlighting something that makes it the opposite of what you were trying to convey
You may make copies of the Software for your personal noncommercial home entertainment use and to give to friends and acquaintances on a no cost noncommercial basis. This limited right to copy the Software expressly excludes any copying or distribution of the Software on a commercial basis, including, without limitation, bundling the product with any other product or service and any give away of the Software in connection with another product or service. Any permissions granted herein are provided on a temporary basis and can be withdrawn by Interplay Productions at any time. All rights not expressly granted are reserved
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Umm... I knew that. Giving them away free, in a separate rack in a store, with a sign that says "Free - take one" isn't what you are describing. True, I didn't know that mithrantir had to mail them. However, I do not think that mailing them would count if the customer is given the DVD without asking for it or knowing of it in the first place, with a paper explaining that the DVD has absolutely nothing to do with the product, that it is just a freebie that they should feel free to copy and redistribute to their friends and acquaintances. (Use hip63's SCP DVD v 2.0, when it comes out.) You see, then it is not "in connection with another product or service"... although, you do have a point, it is "bundling the product with any other product".
However!!!! This would cost Mithrantir a bit, but it would also make it legal: he would have to separately mail the DVD to the customer, with a paper explaining that the SCP DVD is not associated with his product, that he is just doing them a favor as one of his acquaintances... and include a copy of the EULA, with the relevant part in bold (including the part about products & services).
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Well, i bet i couldnt mail the cd cause it would cost like 15 euros, and i make 5 euros out of the cards, so i will be paying 10 :P Too bad though, it would be a nice way to give it away. Perhaps i could just give them the link and they could DL it if interested it...
Too bad though :(
Edit: However, now that i think about it, the magazine that gave FS2_Open with the package would be illegal too, since they came it in a package with the product (in this case, a dvd containing FS2_Open with the magazine being the product)
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Err... geez, postal must be expensive over there... :nervous:
Umm, yeah, technically, it would be illegal. And I suppose if the wrong ppl saw it, they could raise a stink, even if Interplay didn't (I sincerely doubt they would, but...). There was this fellow whose dad got into trouble with the authorities for something like that, total BS, but tell that to the authorities... nothing came of it, IIRC, so that's good.
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As far as withdrawing authorization, the EULA that is quoted from isn't even the same as another one that came with the game, or on the website, or something. I remember there were two copies of the EULA and only one contained that agreement. Either way, it's the excuse that's used. And if it's an E-Shop, just include the discs as bonuses, but don't advertise it. In fact, I wouldn't even advertise mods if I were including them, since most of them are also dancing on their own IP tightrope. You'd only really be reasonably safe advertising distributing a FSO Total Conversion that was based on 100% original content and IP. But, I'd still throw in everything else anyway.
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Practically speaking, I would say that it is a bad idea to give the retail Freespace 2 data to anyone whose primary acquaintance with you falls under the title of 'customer'. It's endangering your business by associating whatever legal repercussions that may result (however unlikely) with that business, meaning if you get in trouble, it could end up harming not only you but the way that you pay for food, etc.
This is because if you start giving away something, it's possible that people will interpret that as a gesture of goodwill ("Oh, he's so nice, he gave me a free game with my network card") which could make them come back to you again, directly resulting in additional profit (for you). Now of course that's not your intention, or at least not the intention you're coming to us with. But it is an effect that it could have on people, and it's an effect that's well recognized in the world of marketing and business.
If you absolutely, positively want to distribute something, I wouldn't really suggest (I don't think distributing FS2 or the engine with a product that you're selling is a good idea) but I would point out that distributing the installer, distributing one of the mods Karajorma mentioned, or just having a poster or desktop background or something where customers can see it would be a little less intrusive. All of these items would not fall under the terms of the license agreement, AFAIK, although anything you distribute with the engine will have the requirement that it not be used for profit, so my second paragraph could still be a problem. And of course, you had better get agreement from whoever's stuff you distribute and get it in writing.
Remember, by law you're giving away someone's intellectual property. If the modmakers discover that people think your network cards are crappy and the modmakers don't want to have their mod associated with your network cards, and the modmakers decide they're going to sue, it will look much better to a court for you to have a piece of writing, showing that the modmaker(s) and you came to an agreement to distribute their mod. Otherwise you don't even have any evidence of good intentions, or of making a good faith effort to contact the copyright holder to obtain the rights to distribute their IP.
(Oh, and I'm not saying your network cards are crappy, I'm just using that as an example of where someone might decide to take legal action against you for giving away their mod.)
Finally, I do want to reiterate that even if you have good intentions in giving away copies of Freespace 2, its commercial affiliation makes it somewhat risky. The legalese of internet projects is also very loose and implicit, since mods do not have their members sign release forms in general. Even if you do get permission from the project lead, I suspect that the individual artists on a project may own enough rights on their individual artwork to cause trouble. Since you're doing this in association with a for-profit enterprise, anything you do with Freespace 2 or FS2_Open or anything related is even more risky, because you're jeopardizing your welfare as well as the business and making it more official (dare I say, institutionalizing it) by associating it in connection with business products and customers, and not just as something that you as an individual seems cool.
So, I'd like to see Freespace 2 get more publicity, but I think that doing it the way you're suggesting has a chance of attracting the wrong kind of attention.
DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer. I've read one book that loosely touched on marketing, and the first 80 pages or so of a legal book for independent filmmaking. I do not have any professional experience offering legal counsel and I encourage you to research this topic yourself.
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Hmm. Distributing a paper with a few screenies of FSOpen and a site where you can get it should be ok, I'd think...
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Hmm. Distributing a paper with a few screenies of FSOpen and a site where you can get it should be ok, I'd think...
And lot cheaper than distributing a lot of CDs/DVDs.
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(Oh, and I'm not saying your network cards are crappy, I'm just using that as an example of where someone might decide to take legal action against you for giving away their mod.)
Actually, they are. The killer NIC is the butt of many jokes on computer forums and is often considered to be the single most useless piece of hardware you can buy given its $250 price. However, if he does manage to sell the cards, more power to him. :D
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Yeah, well... as the old Finnish proverbial goes "The idiocy is not in those who set the price, but in those that pay..." [Ei se ole tyhmä joka pyytää vaan se joka maksaa]. :lol:
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*cough* $10k for a PS3 *cough*
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hahaha, chief you pwned, thats exactly my opinion about ps3 as well :)
as far as whether killer is good or not, the 250$ is not, especially when the 150$ has 80% of its specs etc etc...
And, a 100$ VGA with the 150$ model actually gives you better fps than even a 300$ VGA, without mentioning the decrease in lag ping etc etc etc... I have done this research based on tom's hardware reviews about the VGAs and prices from the bigger online retailers in US :)
So yeah, i consider that a good product
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Would you please point me to where Interplay has withdrawn its authorization?!? Use it while you can, dildo (sorry, not meaning to be overly rude)... If they haven't said you can't, and you are all quivering in your boots like they already have issued a C&D or retracted their permission, then they have won.
They did, about 4-5 years ago before they then went off the grid. Of course nobody bothers to remember that because they are too busy congratulating themselves on their newfound law degrees. </sarcasm>
The EULA everyone loves so to quote from so dearly is from a CD that is 8 years old. Stop quoting it. The only EULA that matters is the one locked in a safe at whoever's house Interplay is being run out of nowadays. I bet that the EULA on Gametap (which is I believe the only online retailer you can get it from now, http://www.gametap.com/home/play/browse/index.html?searchTerm=freespace) has no such language, as a matter of fact, I will download and check, and the license for the SCP itself is clear enough on the point of anything art related. Sometimes I wish I was a lawyer just so I could end this argument with some finality.
I welcome Interplay coming back and asserting itself, I would like to see the franchise revitalized, and that is currently the only way iots going to happen. Even a cease and desist would be a contact. However, for the original post, I would HIGHLY recommend not distributing game discs. Volition is still around, and they WILL care.
Talk to your lawyers if you insist on it, distributing someone elses software without permission could potentially be a career ending move if you intend to have anything to do with the game industry. Links to this site, or the various EXCELLENT standalone mod sites I think are a great idea, I would ask each mod dev's permission though, before actually doing it. For the SCP itself, I can give you explicit permission to put a link to us on a paper (you can even make a CD with a webpage with all these links, so people don't have to write it down). I'd say something like "Try these great games available on the Internet" and you should be good. Again, check with a lawyer, but that's probably pretty close to right.
If you manage to get permission from Interplay, please beg them to contact me. They don't seem to go to conferences anymore.
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GT download is 577 megs.
You MIGHT be able to ask Gametap if you can include something.
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You might be able to bundle these copies (http://www.amazon.co.uk/U-Wish-Games-Freespace-PC/dp/B000S0NZCM/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/026-3544205-8158819?ie=UTF8&s=videogames&qid=1189360876&sr=8-1) too. Assuming that they're legitimate of course.
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EULAs have never been held to be legally binding anyway, as they're imposed on the customer after the contract has actually been executed. So it's probably not a good idea to rely on the EULA no matter which way it leans -- which means that everything defaults to the draconian mockery the courts have made of copyright law.
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You might be able to bundle these copies (http://www.amazon.co.uk/U-Wish-Games-Freespace-PC/dp/B000S0NZCM/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/026-3544205-8158819?ie=UTF8&s=videogames&qid=1189360876&sr=8-1) too. Assuming that they're legitimate of course.
What the hell is "U Wish Games"? Is that a joke or something?
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It's a company that is reselling FS and FS2.
Bundle the U-Wish version with your cards for free (or raise the price slightly. Include another disc with all of the SCP mods etc, etc and include an instruction book (or installer) on how to install them. (Someone may help you with the installer seeking publicity for FS) (Get permission from mod owners first)
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How are they 'reselling' it? Where did they get what they're selling? I mean unless they struck up a contract to be able to legally print new copies of those games, did they just gobble up used ones on ebay or something, or old warehouses?
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Interplay has struck some deals for distribution. Gametap is one of them. Its entirely possible U Wish is another.
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It's a company that is reselling FS and FS2.
Bundle the U-Wish version with your cards for free (or raise the price slightly. Include another disc with all of the SCP mods etc, etc and include an instruction book (or installer) on how to install them. (Someone may help you with the installer seeking publicity for FS) (Get permission from mod owners first)
Wait, so how do you justify this advice again? This completely flies in the face of everything Inquisitor just said, and Inquisitor is well-known to have experience in the gaming sector.
Just to look at what you're asking from a different perspective...U Wish Games has probably put some effort into obtaining the rights to redistribute Freespace 2. (If not, they're in clear violation of US copyright law and so what I'm about to say would apply to them as well.) They've put some kind of effort into negotiating deals to sell the game from Amazon.com. Now you're suggesting that somebody completely rip them off and start giving away their product for free. Just to add insult to injury, even though Freespace 2 is available via other means, you're suggesting that the OP specifically use the copy bundled by U Wish Games. And even worse, you're suggesting that the OP charge a higher price than U Wish Games is.
So the OP would be ripping off U Wish Games by using their work illegally and not paying them for it, and ripping off his customers by charging a higher price.
But finally, you suggest that even when all of this is perfectly acceptable, the OP still needs to ask the mod makers for Freespace for permission. So, apparently, it's OK to illegally cut into the sales of somebody who's working to make money to support themselves, but it's not OK to redistribute the content that people produce because they have some free time and don't need to work for cash.
Now if your argument was that you shouldn't respect copyright in general, I could see where you're coming from, but you seem to be saying that you should only respect copyright for the people that do things for free that you benefit from. Which seems rather selfish. I really doubt that U Wish Games is very much like EA, so I don't see how the oft-used "The game industry is corrupt" would apply here. Plus, if U Wish Games is actually distributing Freespace 2, it's a legal way to get people into the game that can be publicized.
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Well said WMC.
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I'm taking the alternative explanation that he simply meant buy the U Wish version and bundle it with your product or do a deal with U Wish to bundle it.
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...Which is what I thought he meant. :D
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I'm taking the alternative explanation that he simply meant buy the U Wish version and bundle it with your product or do a deal with U Wish to bundle it.
I think it's understood that he meant the former, but doing so without notifying them. At least by WMC, myself, you, and jr2, and probably everyone else who read it. At first I didn't think it would be too big of a deal, but reading WMC's post it does sound like a bit of a problem. It may not be illegal, I can't think of a similar scenario right now in which it would be, but it still seems dirty. Either way though, U Wish sells the games, so, I don't know who'd be at a loss except Interplay.
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Regardless of your activity or intended use, it is always a good idea to ask permission if you are using something you did not create.
I think this is done to death though, now, lots of resources to check on, and precious little anyone else can do to help him beyond that general advice: Ask permission.