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General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Counciler on October 08, 2007, 03:29:14 pm

Title: Where is the bridge of...
Post by: Counciler on October 08, 2007, 03:29:14 pm
The capital ships in the game? I've always wondered where they are....
Title: Re: Where is the bridge of...
Post by: Mobius on October 08, 2007, 03:32:02 pm
The Hatshepsut has a bridge subsystem ;)

About the others, the game isn't clear about this matter. :blah:
Title: Re: Where is the bridge of...
Post by: Dark Hunter on October 08, 2007, 03:38:41 pm
I'd always assumed the Bridge to be somewhere in the interior, heavily protected. After all, it's stupid to make the bridge vulnerable by building it right on the outside with a big window when you're most often gonna be relying on screens and readouts anyway.

Also: the FS1 intro shows us what I take to be the bridge of an Arcadia installation. You'll notice no viewports are visible in the shot, although admittedly the shot is rather narrow and doesn't show much.
Title: Re: Where is the bridge of...
Post by: Mobius on October 08, 2007, 03:45:57 pm
I don't share your point of view, I don't think the bridges are well in the interiors.

Most ships have vulnerable parts. Just look at the Deimos, the Hecate, the Orion and the Fenris/Leviathan. A well placed torpedo can kill hundreds of crewmen.

There are "eyecandy" reasons behind this choice. Would we like completely armored hulls? Would we like cubes with turrets and engines? The answer is simple: No.
Title: Re: Where is the bridge of...
Post by: lenard27 on October 08, 2007, 03:49:48 pm
I'd say the Bridge is usually near the top back part of the ship. But that's just because thats how it is in Star Wars and Star Trek.
Title: Re: Where is the bridge of...
Post by: Dark Hunter on October 08, 2007, 03:52:14 pm
@Mobius: Well, I for one see no windows on the Deimos. Or the Hecate. Or the Orion. Maybe on the Leviathan...

So I say your point is moot.

@Lenard: I'd agree with you in one case: the Hades. Why else would they build that stupidly large tower in the back except to put the bridge up there?
But I don't see such structures on any other ships (I suppose the middle par of a Leviathan might work that way...)
Title: Re: Where is the bridge of...
Post by: karajorma on October 08, 2007, 04:30:59 pm
I've always thought capships should have a great big really obvious bridge.

Just stock it full of mannequins and pretend to play dead once the enemy take it out. :D
Title: Re: Where is the bridge of...
Post by: Mobius on October 08, 2007, 04:33:10 pm
@Mobius: Well, I for one see no windows on the Deimos. Or the Hecate. Or the Orion. Maybe on the Leviathan...

So I say your point is moot.

:wtf:
Title: Re: Where is the bridge of...
Post by: Hades on October 08, 2007, 05:13:05 pm
@Mobius: Well, I for one see no windows on the Deimos. Or the Hecate. Or the Orion. Maybe on the Leviathan...

So I say your point is moot.

If you see no windows then you must be blind.

[attachment deleted by ninja]
Title: Re: Where is the bridge of...
Post by: Mars on October 08, 2007, 06:32:27 pm
I always wondered where the Command channelling comm officer is.

The front of that Orion is many decks tall, it can't all be bridge, also the fact that the objectives in the game never have you destroy the bridge of an enemy warship says to me that the bridges are very well protected.
Title: Re: Where is the bridge of...
Post by: Dark Hunter on October 08, 2007, 09:37:29 pm
Call me blind then, cause nothing in that pic looks like a window to me. Just a bunch of white and yellow lights.


EDIT: Just asked my roommate, and he sees no windows either. What say you to this?
Title: Re: Where is the bridge of...
Post by: Polpolion on October 08, 2007, 09:41:28 pm
I'd doubt ships would have actual windows.
Title: Re: Where is the bridge of...
Post by: Mars on October 08, 2007, 10:29:37 pm
The Fenris has windows, as does the Deimos
Title: Re: Where is the bridge of...
Post by: Nuke on October 08, 2007, 11:10:34 pm
if i was desiging a 4 km long ship (any ship im not even talking warships, because space dibrits can be as bad as a bullet) id put at least 10 feet of steel between the outside of the ship and the nearest habitable section.
Title: Re: Where is the bridge of...
Post by: Counciler on October 09, 2007, 12:40:28 am
if i was desiging a 4 km long ship (any ship im not even talking warships, because space dibrits can be as bad as a bullet) id put at least 10 feet of steel between the outside of the ship and the nearest habitable section.

Yeah but what about fighters with obvious windows. They travel at many times the speed of a capship, and we DO see debris fly by us. with lasers hitting our windows, debris hitting it, and the shrapnel from explosions, why don't they break? Keep in mind that we didn't always have shields.

As another example, the Space Shuttle has windows, as does many other ships.
Title: Re: Where is the bridge of...
Post by: karajorma on October 09, 2007, 03:16:34 am
FS2 ships can survive hits from multi kiloton weapons even without the use of shielding. Space debris is about as damaging on that scale as having someone throw feathers at you.
Title: Re: Where is the bridge of...
Post by: Wanderer on October 09, 2007, 03:33:46 am
In space the increasing amount of armor (ie. the mass) translates quite directly into smaller acceleration.. So keep adding armor and you end up having a nice ship shaped - if practically immobile - space station instead of a space ship. That is assuming it can ever make it to the orbit.
Title: Re: Where is the bridge of...
Post by: Nuke on October 09, 2007, 04:17:03 am
if i was desiging a 4 km long ship (any ship im not even talking warships, because space dibrits can be as bad as a bullet) id put at least 10 feet of steel between the outside of the ship and the nearest habitable section.

Yeah but what about fighters with obvious windows. They travel at many times the speed of a capship, and we DO see debris fly by us. with lasers hitting our windows, debris hitting it, and the shrapnel from explosions, why don't they break? Keep in mind that we didn't always have shields.

As another example, the Space Shuttle has windows, as does many other ships.
and those windows are 3 inches thick :D

FS2 ships can survive hits from multi kiloton weapons even without the use of shielding. Space debris is about as damaging on that scale as having someone throw feathers at you.

i was thinking realisticly, not freespaceistically :D

In space the increasing amount of armor (ie. the mass) translates quite directly into smaller acceleration.. So keep adding armor and you end up having a nice ship shaped - if practically immobile - space station instead of a space ship. That is assuming it can ever make it to the orbit.

well maybe 10 feet of metal might be overkill. an inch of steel for the outer hull plus a couple layers of 1/2 inch or 1/4 inch plating for an internal double and/or tipple hull. each hull would be angled differently to help vector radiation and high energy particles from habitable areas. sorta in a similar way to how stealth reflects radar away from the source.

more steel would mean slightly better radiation protection. mass can be cranked assuming the propusion tech can keep up with structural designs. you could also store water between the hull plates for added radiation shielding and it could also be used as propellant. youre not gonna be able to build a several kilometer long ship unless you got some big honkin engines.

for warships youd want a densely layered hull with blast compartments which could contain explosive forces and radiation. to be able to take nuclear detonations youd go with more or less a zepplin style construction, which is mostly a huge hollow superstructure with skin attached and habitable areas being small and within the bowels of the ship. you could fill in the voids with  honeycombed cells to help take blasts. you could join the cells with explosive bolts so they tear away from the hull when a detonation takes place inside one.

you could counter all that by encasing your nukes in heavy water ice. the effect would be 2 fold, neutrons would reflect back into the bomb and make the reaction last longer (increasing the yeild), and provide blast mass which would vaporize and expand to give it some effects of a blast wave in the vacuum of space. such warheads wouyld ne4ed to penetrate and detonate in a confined space to be useful.
Title: Re: Where is the bridge of...
Post by: Counciler on October 09, 2007, 12:58:23 pm
Well obviously this takes place far in the future. Lets assume suspension of disbelief for a moment. Wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that with all the planets colonized, and all the technological advancements, they would have access to superdense metals far stronger and lighter than steel? We obviously don't see honeycomb blimp nuke-proof ships ingame, but they DO stand up to the Harbinger (Fusion bomb surrounded by 3 fission bombs). So they must be made of something more durable than steel... right?

Lets also go on that same route and assume that, like in star trek, they found a way to make metals invisible. Or, even better, one of those superdense metals IS invisible. There. No more 6 inch glass, no more 10 foot steel. Now you have 1 inch of Ubaromgwtfbbq MegaGlass and 1 foot of Zomgcrazymansauce SuperSteel.

fiction ftw.... yai4me
Title: Re: Where is the bridge of...
Post by: Nuke on October 09, 2007, 01:56:18 pm
zeppelin > blimp :D

no matter what super material they have, id probibly prefer woven carbon nanotube mats epoxied together, which would in theory be even lighter and stronger than traditional carbon fiber. still with uber materials youd want a structure to suck up a warhead and force the blast of the explosion out of the ship rather than into it.
Title: Re: Where is the bridge of...
Post by: Bob-san on October 09, 2007, 02:08:51 pm
Looking at the ships, I'd guess they're actually 4-layered with armor. It seems likely and quite effective to have a multi-layer armour.--meaning they have Zomgcrazymansauce SuperSteel in a thickness of something like 2-3 feet, large plates about 30x5 feet. It's a big honking piece of Zomgcrazymansauce SuperSteel, but when you layer them like plywood, they gain even more strength and flexibility. Using that would let the ships take a lot of damage, and depending on the method of binding the layers of steel, it should also add several sealed layers. Imagine this--you get hit with a torpedo which destroys surface sensors, but when it's done, the Zomgcrazymansauce SuperSteel rebonds to itself with a negligible loss of mass and volume (maybe 5-10%). It takes a lot of effort to actually break through the hull, though after each melt/freeze cycle, it causes internal damage from temporary holes.
Title: Re: Where is the bridge of...
Post by: Grizzly on October 09, 2007, 02:42:20 pm
Quote
Where is the bridge of... 

Khazad-Dûm?
Title: Re: Where is the bridge of...
Post by: psycho_fergo on October 09, 2007, 09:53:50 pm
hey NUKE, you know a bit about explosives...and physics. why is that?

now, if i put my 2 cents worth into this..i think alot of you are missing the point, that yes this is in the future...therefore, alot of the technologies that are being researched today, are going to be a reality then. for instance:

power systems on warships: most likely, the whole ship is a conductor, and used as such. beam technology, im guessing are going need capacitors the size of the ship, and all the heat sinks are in the cannon itself. the actual power source would probably go along the lines of zero point energy. since its probably the only thing so far that could yeild enough energy to be used.

weapons: well if you ask me, ill take an anti-matter bomb anyday. most likely containing super dense cluster of anti-tritium atoms, being held in place by feilds. when exploded, you can have an "anti-matter nuke" of some sorts, which, when comes in contact with the hull of any ship, rips the guts out of it. since mater and anti-matter anihilate when brought together, creating energy, thats one nasty reaction to happen to the side of a ship.

what i dont get, is the massive engine glows. what a waste of power! what would be making that much light? it cant be any kind of combustion..well you wouldnt want it to be.. these days they are using super light engines in space with i think if i remember corrextly, of excited Argon gas to prepel satelites, mapping the gravity fluctuations on earth. lol.

i have no idea what the hulls could be made out of.. i would guess that using the ship itself as a conductor, would have 2 uses. one as a huge capacitor for beam weapons. and 2nd a way of polarising the hull to defelct things like charged antimatter particles.

eh, thats just my logic anyway. but just one more thing..in the next 10 years, all nuclear weapons will be phased out, since there is no use really for them. its possible to make bombs, that creat the same explosive effects of a nuke, but without the radioactive fallout. its made by chemical bombs, which are detonated to mix with the air, then that mixture is then detonated, which creates a vacuum, which in turn creates a massive shockwave, similare to that of a nuke. the results of this kind of weapon is insane, cause it means, what does a country fear about using them? they dont have the radio active fall out issues, so it takes away the huge ethical debates. so, bring on WW3, cause that pretty much what these weapons are gonna lead to...w00t! i just hope they have a pegasus built by then, so i can do what im good at..lol. poon some @55 FS style!
Title: Re: Where is the bridge of...
Post by: Nuke on October 10, 2007, 12:28:22 am
you can use speed alone to create nuclear-esque damage. you send a dense projectile huraling off of a rail or gauss cannon system and once launched will then fire chem rockets to generate ludicrous speed. just a matter of mass * velocity, throw alot of one or the other (or alot of both) at the target and youl do some damage. velocity is really only usefull if your target is aways out. for close in combat, the time to accelerate an object to a super-damaging velocity isnt available and thats where you bring out the explosives, nukes and gatling guns :D
Title: Re: Where is the bridge of...
Post by: TrashMan on October 10, 2007, 05:53:44 am
Quote
Where is the bridge of... 

Khazad-Dûm?

In Moria you n00b :lol:
Title: Re: Where is the bridge of...
Post by: Grizzly on October 10, 2007, 09:27:30 am
Quote
Where is the bridge of... 

Khazad-Dûm?

In Moria you n00b :lol:

Isn't the real name for Moria (the dwarves name?) Khazad-Dûm?
Title: Re: Where is the bridge of...
Post by: Counciler on October 10, 2007, 06:47:03 pm
Quote
Where is the bridge of... 

Khazad-Dûm?

In Moria you n00b :lol:

Isn't the real name for Moria (the dwarves name?) Khazad-Dûm?

Correct. Though I could be wrong, but Moria may be only a part of  Khazad-Dûm... sorta like Manhattan to NYC.
Title: Re: Where is the bridge of...
Post by: Terashell on October 11, 2007, 02:36:02 pm
IIRC, the armor of (at least Blue Planet ships) was Molybdenum... though I don't know if it's an alloy or solid MolyB... *shrugs*  considering this is 300 years from "now"... My guess is they have far more advanced alloys or alternative building materials.
Title: Re: Where is the bridge of...
Post by: BengalTiger on October 11, 2007, 03:11:16 pm
you can use speed alone to create nuclear-esque damage. you send a dense projectile huraling off of a rail or gauss cannon system and once launched will then fire chem rockets to generate ludicrous speed.

Um...
Rocket powered projectile speed is limited by the speed of the gases being shot out the engine, so no ludicrous speed with rocket assisted projectiles. You'll only get to ridiculous speed using a modern rail gun in no time, but that's more than enough for today.
Title: Re: Where is the bridge of...
Post by: Nuke on October 11, 2007, 07:15:15 pm
the speed of the projectile doesnt matter. the engine will produce acceleration not speed. a burning chem rocket will accelerate no matter how powerfull it is. what i was saying us use a rail or gauss system to get the projectile going pretty fast. then using chem rockets on the projectile to gain additional velocity and also to supply the delta-v necessary to make any required course corrections.
Title: Re: Where is the bridge of...
Post by: psycho_fergo on October 11, 2007, 09:27:07 pm
IIRC, the armor of (at least Blue Planet ships) was Molybdenum... though I don't know if it's an alloy or solid MolyB... *shrugs*  considering this is 300 years from "now"... My guess is they have far more advanced alloys or alternative building materials.

umm..thats an element on the periodic table..and i sure as hell wouldnt make a ship out of it. i could break a hole in it with an ice pick.

though your point about more advanced alloys would be correct. most likely, nano tubes perhaps? with some kind of spiderweb like alloy coating, densly packed..that would provide elasticity, and strength. also, you could use the nano tubes for all other types of aplications.

also, if u think about it. all the electronics of the future arnt going to be silicon based...we are currently in the silicon age right. we are about to movie into the carbon age...all hail the BUCKEY BALL!!! w00t!  :D

we already have new "organic" processors. using, IIRC, a bit of gold, then a 28 atom molecule, then a bit of gold. the 28 atom molecule acts as a semi conductor, and is a replacement for silicon, as it uses a few hundred atoms. so its smaller, its faster, its better. then! there are all kinds of things goin on. like nano computer, quantum computers, optical computers. evan the way storage workswith hard drives. we will have holographic and solid state storage, as well as protonic memory. then software for this stuff includes things like nural networks. if u ask me, i think freespace underestimated our level of technological advancement. lol. but, then again, it would complicate gameplay.

this is just like scientists had NO idea what computers were gonna look like...this is a picture of what they though a home computer would look like in the year 2004. its now 2008, and i think we are maybe, i dunno. a "little" more advanced..lol
http://whiptech.com/images/future/computer.future.jpg


anyway...im done
Title: Re: Where is the bridge of...
Post by: Retsof on October 11, 2007, 09:53:12 pm
Not to be a killjoy, but, like all sci-fi, Freespace took some liberty with the laws of physics.  It doesn't matter if its a really possible material or not.  If they have such advanced technology, maybe they made everything out of wellstone (read The Collapsium)  which uses an ultra-fine web of silicon fibers that force electrons into orbits around nothing, creating "psuedoatoms" of any material you could think of.  Of course, these are all half silicon, but with something 3000 times the strength of steal, it still is a good 1500 times times as strong.
Title: Re: Where is the bridge of...
Post by: psycho_fergo on October 11, 2007, 10:12:20 pm
yea see that could work, but in reality, that cant work. since the free electrons wouldnt have anything to orpit would that? you wouldnt have any energy level bands for them to orbit in, since there is no atom to specify them. unless the silicon kind of had a phantom mass efect, which i dont see how that would be feasable. though i like that thinking. perhaps buckey ball tubes (made from carbon) with this kind idea of wellstone inside them, would improve it. since perhaps you could use the carbon atoms to be the "phantom" mass and therefore have a kind of alloy, that exists, yet is not made of what it is made of. if u get my meaning. lol. kind of like, you have icecream and some topping, but you really get some solid concreate..haha. bad example, but i think thats kinda clear. lol
Title: Re: Where is the bridge of...
Post by: Counciler on October 12, 2007, 01:26:40 am
Can we like, maybe get back on topic? This is supposed to be about where the bridge is on capital ships.
Title: Re: Where is the bridge of...
Post by: Nuke on October 12, 2007, 03:23:34 am
seems the newbs have taken this one over, remind me never to post on the freespace board again. :D
Title: Re: Where is the bridge of...
Post by: brandx0 on October 12, 2007, 03:56:29 am
this is just like scientists had NO idea what computers were gonna look like...this is a picture of what they though a home computer would look like in the year 2004. its now 2008, and i think we are maybe, i dunno. a "little" more advanced..lol
http://whiptech.com/images/future/computer.future.jpg

Well known urban legend:
http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/hoaxes/computer.asp
Title: Re: Where is the bridge of...
Post by: Terashell on October 12, 2007, 04:03:23 am
As far as bridges are concerned, it makes more logical sense to put them in the bowels of the ship where they'd be protected i.e. covenant capital ships, the Galactica (et al), and a few capital ships I've designed (on paper).  Terran ships in Halo especially were rather stupid to have the bridge so exposed especially with the plasma weapons the covvies had.  How many times do we see a bridge destroyed in Star Trek?  The Battle Bridge of the Enterprise-D was a step forward, but not much of one.

If I were to add a subsystem labeled Bridge to any ship in the Vasudan, Shivan, or Terran fleet, it would be in somewhere encased in the hull, really only targetable with one of those beam weapons that can punch a hole through a ship.  I'll upload a screenshot sometime tomorrow after I've added a bridge subsystem to one of the Vasudan capital ships tomorrow, assuming I can figure out how...

Technically, you'd still be able to destroy the subsystem with stilettos or disruptors, but it's still not an "easy target."