Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Retsof on October 18, 2007, 08:33:18 pm
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How would the GTVA stand up to the Imperial Navy or vice versa, if from some strange occurrence involving a jump node, a black hole, and an experimental drive system, the universes were brought together?
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I would think that the Imperial Navy would kick the GTVA's ass. One reason: Cap-Ship Shields. Of course, there is no real way to compare the weapons and such of the 2 navies because they are in entirely different universes.
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The GTVas beams may destroy the shields, you forget about this.
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The GTVas beams may destroy the shields, you forget about this.
No I didn't forget about it, it's just that we don't know. Also, Imperial command seems a lot less stupid than GTVA command does. Of course, I've never been a TIE pilot so I wouldn't know how inept their command is.
EDIT: And this is a very interesting topic for me since I am the biggest Star Wars dork (I use this term with affection) that I know. And of course I'm a FreeSpace dork (again, with affection) too.
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Imps would win, because they don't have the oversized squirt-gun.
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Imps win because they have a VAST superiority in numbers.
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I would think that the Imperial Navy would kick the GTVA's ass. One reason: Cap-Ship Shields. Of course, there is no real way to compare the weapons and such of the 2 navies because they are in entirely different universes.
In FS beams always tear through shields.
The Imperial Navy's weapons seem to be FS1 era.
It wouldn't matter anyway because of all the subspace disruption, the Shivans would come down and whoop some ass.
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How do we know the strength of the armour on the ships is the same? The FS2 ships may have way stronger armour, perhaps visversa.
And I think FS2 beams would totally destroy Imp ships, since in FS2 I think they go right through shields.
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Of course, I've never been a TIE pilot so I wouldn't know how inept their command is.
... but I have, and I can say that Imperial Command is way more sensible than GTVA Command. The Imperial Navy is more prone to treachery, though, Harkov and Zaarin come to mind... :drevil:
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The GTVA needed ancient 5-legged cyber-organic killers with plasma accelerators built into their carapace to defeat them. The Empire required some kind of pre-historic Care-Bear....
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Double post, but being serious, if it was one-one between, say a Star Destroyer and a GTVA ship, then it might stand a chance against a Corvette or the like, depending on the shield reaction to beams. it's a little bit smaller than a corvette, but there's no realistic way afaik of comparing armour to weapons between the two, using the Star Wars universe, the SD must have incredibly tough armour, weapons in Star Wars are incredibly powerful, but then, they are in FS2 as well. An Orion would tear an SD to pieces before it could do that much damage however if the weapons/armour were comparable.
If, however, you are talking a 'door' open over a period of weeks or months, then the Empire can outnumber and out-industry the GTVA 100 fold, they would simply swarm them under with Fighters and Bombers.
Edit: Sorry those two were so far apart, the cat has fallen asleep on my hand :)
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Well from a fighter perspective, the GTVA have it way over the Imperials. More shields, More firepower and more versatile designs.
From a Capship perspective....well I'll have to lend it to the GTVA again. Beams are designed to bust through SHivan shielding, so it shouldn't be a problem against shields designed for short duration impact of Turbolasers (think Death Star 2 blowing away the Liberty. the superlaser is a beam cannon). GTVA has more depth as well, with stronger entries in the smaller ships (a few Deimos would be all over a Star Destroyer), and the big Hat is a pretty solid offensive destroyer, the Hecate serves as the carrier nicely. the Imperial Fleet is big on being Impressive and inspiring fear, but after a shivan juggernaut, a SD is not scary.
and tactics wise, the imperials consistently lost to a ragtag bunch of rebels. the GTVA has beaten back the Great Destroyers twice (with various levels of success...but they're still around!)
so GTVA > the Imperials
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The GTVA needed ancient 5-legged cyber-organic killers with plasma accelerators built into their carapace to defeat them. The Empire required some kind of pre-historic Care-Bear....
Lies!
Many Bothans died to deliver the information that led to the Battle of Endor! It was just that the Care-Bears stole the show and Bothans get one sentence in the whole movie series referring to them.
Than again, a bunch of teenagers and an aluminium falcon was enough to blow up the first Death Star.
That said, it's possible that the Imperials have resources comparable even to Shivans. I mean they rule a galaxy. GTVA covers about 20-30 systems (drew the number from my hat, might be wrong, might be right, failure to care imminent) and are reliant on nodes for intersystem transportation.
Then again, terrans and vasudans seem to be very good at stealing and adapting foreign technology to their needs, seeing how they managed to adjust their sensors to detect Shivans in about two mission time gap, get working primary weapons against Shivan shields very fast, and the assimilation of Shivan shield tech was also incredibly fast and the technology was also manufactured and fitted on the ships at unbelievably good efficiency. I mean, in one mission you save the prototype and in the second all your ships have shields - I have to hand it to the GTA/PVN logistics, they should probably be assigned to high command as well (but then the good logistics would be lost...)
But, as was said, as far as fighters go, GTVA has much better equipment. Bombs seem to be more powerful, although imperial missiles have more advanced homing capabilities. But Imps have more fighters and bombers so they can deal with them being practically mobile weapon platforms for a pilot in EVA suit.
In cap ship battle, Imps have better mobility (assuming they can use hyperspace in GTVA space) and better defences. Oh, and they have more of them too. Nevertheless, aside from Death Star/Eclipse superlasers, GTVA ships have better long-range weapons (beams), but their efficiency against Imperial capship shields is up to anyone's imagination.
The biggest problems the GTVA would have against imperials would likely be numbers and hyperspace's advantages compared to nodes. In equal battlegroup engagement, I think the fight would be pretty even, but the fight is only one part of war - the imps would never have need to fight on even grounds, they could maintain their presence in GTVA systems very easily and simply land some huge amounts of ground pounders and stormtroopers to invade the GTVA systems before the node-dependant GTVA forces could even respond...
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Oh no, not this universe crossing ****. =/
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:lol: It's ok as long as people don't start taking it anything near personally, you can come to some conclusions with the Canon stuff for both universes, but at the end of the day, as long as people realise that there's no way to truly find out the answer, I don't really mind ;)
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Both of the universes don't make logical sense, basically in opposite ways
*slaps self* shoulda been neither
Opposite ways?
Yes, oppisite ways: in the Freespace universe everything moves ridiculously slowly, power levels are far too low; a GTF Hercules mk II a front line fighter in the FS universe moves at 55 mps, slower than a C-130 Hercules... a real life military freighter at 169 mps, or an X-wing, at 400 mps (66 mps faster than sound at sea level).
In the same way, a death star laser has the equivalent power of 2.39 X 1022 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_Star#Death_Star_firepower) (1032 J /4.184 X 109) tons of TNT... greater than the energy the Sun puts out per second 9.15×1013 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun)... a ridiculous amount of energy for a ship to generate. The only value weapon data in Freespace is the Harbinger and the Banshee, the Harbinger is a 5 gigajoule warhead.... a little more than a ton of TNT (4.184 gigajoules) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ton#Ton_of_TNT) kinda dinkey... but believeable. It takes 313 Harbingers to take down a Sathanas, a single super laser would do the job... many times over. Sufficed to say the FS universe is crazily underpowered and the Star Wars universe is hopelessly overpowered.
So there :p
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Please , no numbers of OMGgigajoules , etc. ...
FreeSpace universe would win :
1. Beam cannons go right through shields and damage the hull ( photons on shields don't work , and it's like this on fighters in FS2 )
2. GTVA destroyers are larger than a star destroyer ( GTD Orion = 2 kilometers , a Star Destroyer is 1.4km if I remember right ) .
3. With subspace you can control where and how you jump in ( except for the node travel ) .
4. GTVA has stronger hull , because I don't think the imperials would bother upgrading the hull/armour since they have shields .
5. Outnumbers , but they're weak compared to GTVA . Imperials are as strong as the GTA before the great war . They can swarm the GTVA , but the GTVA has shields , and much better weapons than lame lasers .
6. The GTVA can't win a ground battle with just their ground forces ( which noone knows how they look , except for the infantry ) , but they can bombard the planet from orbit and leave it in a worse condition than Vasuda Prime .
7. Imperials smart ? No way ... They got beaten by a bunch of rebels , for crying out loud ...
8. If shields can be pierced by beam cannons , a few cruisers can take down a star destroyer ( with good maneuvering of course ) . Not to mention that the GTVA can send in corvettes , destroyers and the most effective - bombers .
9. Even if the GTVA fails to win against the imperials , then the Shivan could beat beat a hell lot of them with just 1 Sathanas ( 1 wouldn't be enough for everything , but still ... ) , because of it's strong beam cannons and quick refire rate .
10. I like the FreeSpace universe , so no way I would let some imperials beat up the GTVA .
Judging on these "facts" , I have to say that the Imperials would be screwed .
P.S. NO MORE NUMBERS OF OMG10GIGATONS - NO sci-fi ship has even NEAR enough that kind of power . And you can't base those numbers on anything cannon , just your imagination .
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The GTVas beams may destroy the shields, you forget about this.
Seeing how Star Wars ships of equal size pummel eachother with lasers for hours before blasting eachor, and FS22 ships beam eachotehr to death in under a minute, I'd say the beamz pack a LOT more firepower.
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The GTVA needed ancient 5-legged cyber-organic killers with plasma accelerators built into their carapace to defeat them. The Empire required some kind of pre-historic Care-Bear....
LOL...so true...
If, however, you are talking a 'door' open over a period of weeks or months, then the Empire can outnumber and out-industry the GTVA 100 fold, they would simply swarm them under with Fighters and Bombers.
Unshielded, paper-thin hull ones. Aeoulses weould get a field day! ;7
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Yes, oppisite ways: in the Freespace universe everything moves ridiculously slowly, power levels are far too low; a GTF Hercules mk II a front line fighter in the FS universe moves at 55 mps, slower than a C-130 Hercules... a real life military freighter at 169 mps, or an X-wing, at 400 mps (66 mps faster than sound at sea level).
In the same way, a death star laser has the equivalent power of 2.39 X 1022 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_Star#Death_Star_firepower) (1032 J /4.184 X 109) tons of TNT... greater than the energy the Sun puts out per second 9.15×1013 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun)... a ridiculous amount of energy for a ship to generate. The only value weapon data in Freespace is the Harbinger and the Banshee, the Harbinger is a 5 gigajoule warhead.... a little more than a ton of TNT (4.184 gigajoules) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ton#Ton_of_TNT) kinda dinkey... but believeable. It takes 313 Harbingers to take down a Sathanas, a single super laser would do the job... many times over. Sufficed to say the FS universe is crazily underpowered and the Star Wars universe is hopelessly overpowered.
Interesting - when watching the movies the fighters seem even slower than FS ones. So are we talkign about the "real" laws of hte SW & FS unvierse or the "percived" laws that appear like tehat becosue of game mechanics/cooness factors/dramitic tension.
I mena they COULD have made a X-wing fly at 400mps but that would make hte fight scenes rather chaotic nad wouldn't give the views a good overviw.
By the same logic, FS2 COULD have made fighters fly at 400mps, but dogfighting would become impossible for an average player.
That the danger of hte numbers game - they don't correlate to what you SEE.
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Hmm... for the sake of simplicity, could we just say that the one with better music will win and be done with it?
Obviously, the problem then is to decide which has better music. :drevil:
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Hmm... for the sake of simplicity, could we just say that the one with better music will win and be done with it?
Obviously, the problem then is to decide which has better music. :drevil:
Thats a tough question. I mean, Star Wars music is famous throughout the world. If you played the Imperial March, most people would know what it was. FreeSpace, on the other hand, has great music too, although it's not as famous or critically-acclaimed. But you can't really base it on that because of the two different mediums the music is in. My vote is for Star Wars I guess, just because I remember the music better.
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Imps win because they have a VAST superiority in numbers.
Exactly. The GTVA controls many systems, the Empire controls...a galaxy!
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Plus TIE fighters can go a hundred times faster than FS ships (literally).
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Plus TIE fighters can go a hundred times faster than FS ships (literally).
Not according to the movies.
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A light turbolaser on a Star Wars vessel packs 40 times the power of a Harbinger bomb. They fire at a much faster rate and with more at a time as well. A Star Wars capital ship would take down a Sathanas in seconds. The only ship with a chance would be the Lucifer, tearing around razing planets unopposed.
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All those numbers in some manuals are pure ****z. They are redicolous.
The only reference I'm taking for granted is what I see in the movies.
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Most of the books are considered canon so whatever is in the EU can most likely be considered fact. As for TIE Fighters Vs. FreeSpace fighters, I'd say that the TIEs would win just from sheer numbers. It seems in FreeSpace, at most 12 ships are deployed (1 Squadron in Star Wars terms). In Star Wars often 1 Wing of ships are deployed (3 Squadrons, IIRC). So the sheer numbers of TIE's would overwhelm FreeSpace fighters
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I'd like to point out that the universe and what you see don't exactly have to correlate.
X-Wing is said to go at 400mps, but look at the movies..it ain't going that fast bro. Why? Dramatic effect.
Similary in FS2, fighter seem to go realyl slow. Again, why? Gameplay isues.
That doesn't mean that in hte FS universe the Devs actually imagines FS fighters to go 800mps, but there was no way they could have put them in game with a speed like that and get the game excellent gameplay.
The second thing that should be considered is that maby 12000^10 J of power in SW universe isn't the same in FS universe. After all, we know that the power SW ships seem to put out is flat out impossible. Such comparisons actually have no merit...not that any such comparisons have merit.
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All righty, let's take a scientific approach to this debate:
My reference sources will be: The Original Star Wars Trilogy (No expanded universe sources), and situations seen in Freespace, along with freespace information drawn from the tech room. I'll be drawing on Dr. Curtis Saxton's work on the Star Wars Technical commentaries for some of the math (once again, ignoring any references to the Expanded Universe) and on the Freespace Wiki for information on GTVA equipment.
Speed: The fastest fighter in Freespace, the Horus, can reach a speed of 170 m/s using full afterburners. The X-Wing in the Star Wars original trilogy has been clocked using frame evidence at a speed roughly 290 m/s (Independant research on the part of the SWC design team by timing known distances versus the time the X-Wing takes to travel through them, i.e., over the hull of a ship.) In A New Hope, Rebel X-Wings are shown racing down the Death Star Trench at full speed, yet the Imperial TIE Fighters are able to overtake them. This suggests that TIE Fighters are therefore even faster than the X-Wing.
The Millenium Falcon has also been clocked by our team at around 260 m/s. A Star Destroyer in Empire Strikes Back is able to keep pace with the Falcon, suggesting that it possesses a similar speed rating. Comparably, the Aeolus has a maximum speed of 30 m/s, with most Freespace Capital ships falling short of that.
Edge: The Imperial Navy.
Strategic Maneuverability: Freespace ships posess Jump Drives, allowing them to travel great distances at great speed. Star Wars ships posess Hyperspace capability, which is very similar. Unfortunately the individual travel times can not be compared in these two, given the rather fuzzy timescale used by both sources. The GTVA, however, have an additional limitation that the Imperial Navy do not have to worry about: To travel between systems the GTVA must use jumpgates. This allows the Imperial navy greater flexibility to conduct attacks or redeploy forces at will.
Edge: The Imperial Navy.
Armour: For a comparison of these two, we must look to a common baseline, some attack which exists in both sources: Asteroids. The GTVA's destroyers are shown able to withstand impacts by several asteroids. An Imperial Star Destroyer's Bridge tower is struck by an asteroid of similar size, though greater speed, and is destroyed. This suggests that the hull armour of the GTVA's ships is greater than that of a Star Destroyer, though debatably considering the Asteroid seen in Star Wars had a greater kinetic energy.
Edge: The GTVA
Weaponry: The same comparison can be made of weaponry between the two universes, using Asteroids as a baseline. The GTVA's weaponry is successful in destroying asteroids, each blast from a GTVA Blob turret can vaporize small asteroids, or break apart larger ones. In the Scene in the Empire Strikes Back, the Imperial Turbolasers of all sizes, including the smaller point defence guns, are capable of vaporizing all sizes of Asteroid, suggesting a greater weaponry output. to quote Curtis Saxton, "we can estimate a lower limit on the power of each of the small anti-fighter point-defence cannons as between 250TW and 2000TW. The sixty-four visibly large dorsal heavy cannons must have considerably greater power than even this lower limit." 1 Kiloton of TNT is equal to 4.2 TJ of energy, giving the rating of the Star Destroyer's smaller guns at between 59.5 and 476.2 Kilotons of TNT.
As posted earlier in this thread, we are given numbers on one of the Freespace warheads which we can use to compare, the little more than 1 Megaton Harbringer. If the Star Destroyer's smaller guns are capable of delivering between 1/16th and nearly half this energy, with no ammunition restraint, the larger guns must be significantly more powerful than this, and thus able to stand on an even footing with the Harbringer, given their much higher rate of fire (at least once per second) and inability to be intercepted mid-flight. Their lack of ammunition dependancy puts each of these weapons in a more useful light, and given that each Star Destroyer (Avenger type, as seen in ESB and ROTJ) carries at least 64 of the larger class guns visibly, but most likely more of this class or a slightly smaller class are placed around the destroyer as well. The Executor, a ship twelve times longer than an Imperial Star Destroyer with a volume of hundreds times greater, must reasonably carry a much greater number of weapons of at least this damage class, if not much greater.
As mentioned earlier, however, the GTVA's beam weaponry may be able to pierce through the imperial shields, the Empire's primary defensive mechanism, but the much higher damage of the imperial weapons, and more numerous placement, must easily dwarf this ability, given that GTVA capital ships are not equipped with shields.
Edge: The Imperial Navy.
Shields: As seen in the battle during ROTJ, Capital ships in Star Wars are able to blast away at eachother for a long period of time, no less than one hour of constant bombardment between the two fleets. This suggests that, given the above stated weapon power, the Empire's shielding technology must be much greater than that of the GTVA, given their ability to shield their larger craft and withstand bombardment of that type for such extended periods of time. In fact, in the battle in Return of the Jedi, during this time only one Imperial Star Destroyer is seen succumbing to destruction at this heavy bombardment.
While GTVA Beam weapons may be able to pierce the Imperial shields, not all GTVA weaponry is of this type. In fact, Beam Turrets only exist on GTVA capitol ships (thus rendering Fighter attack relatively useless against the might of the Imperial shielding) with the largest of GTVA ships, the Colossus, having only 23 of these weapons. This means that the bulk of attack against the Imperial fleet must be conducted by large capitol ships, even though through Freespace 1 and 2 it seems the preferred method of attack by the GTVA seems to be sending in Starfighter Squadrons using physical warheads, the GTVA would need to send in its capital ships equipped with beam weaponry to overcome the imperial shield defences. These would likely succumb quickly to imperial bombardment, given the Star Destroyer's ability to deal damage equivalent to between 4 and 32 Harbringer attacks per second using only its large barbette mounted guns.
Edge: The Imperial Navy
Fighters: The Imperial Navy's fighters, for the most part, are unshielded, and would succumb quickly to GTVA weaponry, however, as stated, the Imperial fighters are much, much faster than their GTVA counterparts, and given the above stated calculations, would have a higher damage output than the GTVA's weaponry. If the Imperial TIE Fighters and the even faster Interceptors could use their speed effectively, combined with their much greater numbers (with each Star Destroyer carrying 64 of these) they could quickly overcome the GTVA's fighter defences, and focus on disabling the Beam Weaponry of the GTVA Capital ships, minimzing damage to their own.
Edge: The Imperial Navy
Given these evidences, the Imperial Navy seems to be able to quickly dominate an evenly numbered GTVA fleet, but given the stated size of the Imperial Navy, in the category of Dozens, if not Hundreds, of thousands of capital ships, they could smash the meager GTVA defences efficiently.
Oh, and Star Wars has better music.
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Good job.
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Good job.
Good spam.
I share brandx0's opinions, but:
Fighters: The Imperial Navy's fighters, for the most part, are unshielded, and would succumb quickly to GTVA weaponry, however, as stated, the Imperial fighters are much, much faster than their GTVA counterparts, and given the above stated calculations, would have a higher damage output than the GTVA's weaponry. If the Imperial TIE Fighters and the even faster Interceptors could use their speed effectively, combined with their much greater numbers (with each Star Destroyer carrying 64 of these) they could quickly overcome the GTVA's fighter defences, and focus on disabling the Beam Weaponry of the GTVA Capital ships, minimzing damage to their own.
Edge: The Imperial Navy
I really want to see if a squadron of Perseus equipped with Maxim cannons can be overwhelmed by TIE fighters :P
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I was going to post but this, er, no...
I'm going now.. :pimp:
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Got sick of TIEs? Launch TIE Avengers.
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Kaysers, Maxims...GTVA fighters are superior. A single fighter can take down many SW fighters. Are the primaries of SW fighters able to pierce small shields?
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Weaponry: The same comparison can be made of weaponry between the two universes, using Asteroids as a baseline. The GTVA's weaponry is successful in destroying asteroids, each blast from a GTVA Blob turret can vaporize small asteroids, or break apart larger ones. In the Scene in the Empire Strikes Back, the Imperial Turbolasers of all sizes, including the smaller point defence guns, are capable of vaporizing all sizes of Asteroid, suggesting a greater weaponry output. to quote Curtis Saxton, "we can estimate a lower limit on the power of each of the small anti-fighter point-defence cannons as between 250TW and 2000TW. The sixty-four visibly large dorsal heavy cannons must have considerably greater power than even this lower limit." 1 Kiloton of TNT is equal to 4.2 TJ of energy, giving the rating of the Star Destroyer's smaller guns at between 59.5 and 476.2 Kilotons of TNT.
As posted earlier in this thread, we are given numbers on one of the Freespace warheads which we can use to compare, the little more than 1 Megaton Harbringer. If the Star Destroyer's smaller guns are capable of delivering between 1/16th and nearly half this energy, with no ammunition restraint, the larger guns must be significantly more powerful than this, and thus able to stand on an even footing with the Harbringer, given their much higher rate of fire (at least once per second) and inability to be intercepted mid-flight. Their lack of ammunition dependancy puts each of these weapons in a more useful light, and given that each Star Destroyer (Avenger type, as seen in ESB and ROTJ) carries at least 64 of the larger class guns visibly, but most likely more of this class or a slightly smaller class are placed around the destroyer as well. The Executor, a ship twelve times longer than an Imperial Star Destroyer with a volume of hundreds times greater, must reasonably carry a much greater number of weapons of at least this damage class, if not much greater.
As mentioned earlier, however, the GTVA's beam weaponry may be able to pierce through the imperial shields, the Empire's primary defensive mechanism, but the much higher damage of the imperial weapons, and more numerous placement, must easily dwarf this ability, given that GTVA capital ships are not equipped with shields.
Edge: The Imperial Navy.
Your numbers are wrong by 3 order of magnitude.
Tech room entry on the Harbinger.
Fusion bomb surrounded by 3 salted fission bombs - propulsion unit is a half-size version of a regulation GTA fighter thruster (Class II) - given the weight of the payloads, the missile is slow despite the power of the thruster - as the Harbinger is exceptionally large, GTA bombers are limited to carrying 6 of these weapons at any given time - the resultant shock wave from this weapon is potentially deadly, due to the size of the payloads (5000 Mt in total) - use near allied installations or allied ship groupings is strongly discouraged by the GTA - most effective when used in preemptive defensive strike against non-military installations.
The Harbinger is our best chance of destroying the Lucifer.
A BFRed is worth about 50 of these per salvo. BGreen is probably worth somewhere around half. If you're using figures for armour based on the asteroid destroying the Star Destroyer, the GTVA will monster the Imperial Navy. Don't forget that GTVA armour can shrug off these attacks. The only way they could possibly not win is if the Imperials can breed and spread faster than the GTVA can raze their planets.
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Good job.
Good spam.
I share brandx0's opinions, but:
Fighters: The Imperial Navy's fighters, for the most part, are unshielded, and would succumb quickly to GTVA weaponry, however, as stated, the Imperial fighters are much, much faster than their GTVA counterparts, and given the above stated calculations, would have a higher damage output than the GTVA's weaponry. If the Imperial TIE Fighters and the even faster Interceptors could use their speed effectively, combined with their much greater numbers (with each Star Destroyer carrying 64 of these) they could quickly overcome the GTVA's fighter defences, and focus on disabling the Beam Weaponry of the GTVA Capital ships, minimzing damage to their own.
Edge: The Imperial Navy
I really want to see if a squadron of Perseus equipped with Maxim cannons can be overwhelmed by TIE fighters :P
FS2's ships speed was toned down so the game would be easyer.
You guys know this right?
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:wtf:
My theory is based on the efficience of Maxim and Kayser cannons, speed has no importance. Even the slowest GTVA craft can handle plenties of SW fighters.
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Are Shivans Force-sensitive?
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Strategic Maneuverability: Freespace ships posess Jump Drives, allowing them to travel great distances at great speed. Star Wars ships posess Hyperspace capability, which is very similar. Unfortunately the individual travel times can not be compared in these two, given the rather fuzzy timescale used by both sources. The GTVA, however, have an additional limitation that the Imperial Navy do not have to worry about: To travel between systems the GTVA must use jumpgates. This allows the Imperial navy greater flexibility to conduct attacks or redeploy forces at will.
Edge: The Imperial Navy.
IIR, travel time between any two systems in FS 2 is rougly 10 minutes. distance seems to change very little regarding travel time.
SW ships have been known to take a lot longer to travel between systems.
Weaponry: The same comparison can be made of weaponry between the two universes, using Asteroids as a baseline. The GTVA's weaponry is successful in destroying asteroids, each blast from a GTVA Blob turret can vaporize small asteroids, or break apart larger ones. In the Scene in the Empire Strikes Back, the Imperial Turbolasers of all sizes, including the smaller point defence guns, are capable of vaporizing all sizes of Asteroid, suggesting a greater weaponry output. to quote Curtis Saxton, "we can estimate a lower limit on the power of each of the small anti-fighter point-defence cannons as between 250TW and 2000TW. The sixty-four visibly large dorsal heavy cannons must have considerably greater power than even this lower limit." 1 Kiloton of TNT is equal to 4.2 TJ of energy, giving the rating of the Star Destroyer's smaller guns at between 59.5 and 476.2 Kilotons of TNT.
As posted earlier in this thread, we are given numbers on one of the Freespace warheads which we can use to compare, the little more than 1 Megaton Harbringer. If the Star Destroyer's smaller guns are capable of delivering between 1/16th and nearly half this energy, with no ammunition restraint, the larger guns must be significantly more powerful than this, and thus able to stand on an even footing with the Harbringer, given their much higher rate of fire (at least once per second) and inability to be intercepted mid-flight. Their lack of ammunition dependancy puts each of these weapons in a more useful light, and given that each Star Destroyer (Avenger type, as seen in ESB and ROTJ) carries at least 64 of the larger class guns visibly, but most likely more of this class or a slightly smaller class are placed around the destroyer as well. The Executor, a ship twelve times longer than an Imperial Star Destroyer with a volume of hundreds times greater, must reasonably carry a much greater number of weapons of at least this damage class, if not much greater.
As mentioned earlier, however, the GTVA's beam weaponry may be able to pierce through the imperial shields, the Empire's primary defensive mechanism, but the much higher damage of the imperial weapons, and more numerous placement, must easily dwarf this ability, given that GTVA capital ships are not equipped with shields.
Edge: The Imperial Navy.
Hm..You state that GTVA has better armor, yet DS2 ships chew eachtoer to shreads in seconds, whereas SW ships, which supposedly have weaker armor, lob lasers at eachother for hours.
How can this be if the Imps have stronger weapons???? :wtf:
Shields:
*sNIp*
It is unknown if SW shield could protect from FS2 weapons.
All SW ships shoot lasers. Guns like maxim accelerate uranium slugs.
Relisticly, energy shields should only be able to stop energy weapons... but I digress.
Fighters: The Imperial Navy's fighters, for the most part, are unshielded, and would succumb quickly to GTVA weaponry, however, as stated, the Imperial fighters are much, much faster than their GTVA counterparts, and given the above stated calculations, would have a higher damage output than the GTVA's weaponry. If the Imperial TIE Fighters and the even faster Interceptors could use their speed effectively, combined with their much greater numbers (with each Star Destroyer carrying 64 of these) they could quickly overcome the GTVA's fighter defences, and focus on disabling the Beam Weaponry of the GTVA Capital ships, minimzing damage to their own.
Edge: The Imperial Navy
I dunno. FS2 fighters seem very heavily shielded and have very toguh armor - especially the heavy ones like Erynies and Ares. And a lot of gun banks.
Let's not forget the redicolously impossibly large missile capacity compared to SW fighters. Most Imp fighters can't even launch missiles of any kind.
Teh mainstray of hte Imp fleet is a tie-fighter. 2 guns, no missiles, no shield, paper thin hull.
What would be the FS2 equalent? Myrmodon or Herc2?
Myrmodon has 6 weapons banks and can carry a helios. pwnz a tie fighter.
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A Bgreen right in the bridge of a Star Destroyer, so one hit kill for the Orion! :P
Kids this is what we would call, a HeadShot.
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Hm... I see I struck a slightly soft spot with this one, go on people, this is good stuff! :D
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All I know is that I want to see a GTVA vs Empire campaign now. How cool would it be to capture a Tie Defender 'Playing Judas' style, or do bombing runs on a Star Destroyer's bridge, or try dogfighting with Baron Fel? :D
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I just had another thought, some people say that the empire has hordes of fighters and bombers (no doubt true), but do any of those fighters have shields? Do they have weapons that are actually useful against FS shields (xazer, etc)? This would actually give FS a huge advantage, especially flak equiped capital ships (any unshielded fighter can be torn apart in seconds by flak, regardless of the universe).
All I know is that I want to see a GTVA vs Empire campaign now. How cool would it be to capture a Tie Defender 'Playing Judas' style, or do bombing runs on a Star Destroyer's bridge, or try dogfighting with Baron Fel?
Sounds awesome, so who's going to start fredding it? :D
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thus rendering Fighter attack relatively useless against the might of the Imperial shielding
Then how did A-wings destroy the shield generators in ROTJ in about five shots?
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I just had another thought, some people say that the empire has hordes of fighters and bombers (no doubt true), but do any of those fighters have shields? Do they have weapons that are actually useful against FS shields (xazer, etc)? This would actually give FS a huge advantage, especially flak equiped capital ships (any unshielded fighter can be torn apart in seconds by flak, regardless of the universe).
Well... based only on the movies, no (with the exception of TIE X1/Advanced which is AFAIK only seen once in the original trilogy, flown by Darth Vader).
Based on other sources (games/expanded universe/tech books and stuff), yes, the Imps do have shielded ships like Assault Gunboats and even specially fitted TIE Interceptors with shields, not to mention more advanced TIE models like the Defender which is stupidly overpowered in the original TIE Fighter game, but whatever. But the bulk of imperial navy fighter complement is unshielded - TIE/ln Fighter (space superiority swarm pest), TIE Interceptor and TIE Bomber. These they have a lot and plenty more; the shielded ships are more rare.
But make no mistake, the imps could probably only use their TIE Advanced and Assault Gunboats to bring against GTVA fighter/bomber complement, and there would still be more of them than GTVA could muster...
Whether or not the weapons would be effective against FS universe shields... that would remain to be seen. However, the imps could again start to use missiles exclusively against shielded fightercraft, and that would be the end of that story.
</nerd> :lol:
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IIR, travel time between any two systems in FS 2 is rougly 10 minutes. distance seems to change very little regarding travel time.
SW ships have been known to take a lot longer to travel between systems.
Spot on. How fast is the Millenium Falcon? 0.25 past lightspeed. Meh!!
Hm..You state that GTVA has better armor, yet DS2 ships chew eachtoer to shreads in seconds, whereas SW ships, which supposedly have weaker armor, lob lasers at eachother for hours.
How can this be if the Imps have stronger weapons???? :wtf:
Shield all FS2 capships, then see how long they take if you don't allow beam weapons. :p
Shields:
*sNIp*
It is unknown if SW shield could protect from FS2 weapons.
All SW ships shoot lasers. Guns like maxim accelerate uranium slugs.
Relisticly, energy shields should only be able to stop energy weapons... but I digress.
Umm, there are ray shields, and then there are others EDIT: particle shields, mentioned below. You notice that the Rebel fleet in RotJ didn't simply drop their shields, slip through the DSII shields, and turn them back on. The shield surrounding the DSII was "matter" or w/e you call it EDIT: particle shielding. To avoid the bugzapper syndrome, the Rebel fleet had to do a 180. You remember the DSI suffered its fate due to its tube only being "ray" shielded. But first, before they entered the trench, didn't the Rebels have to destroy some shield projection towers? I sincerely doubt they blew up ray-shield towers, as they could have sailed right through those if they shut down their own shields (no energy to repel, then just flip 'em back on when you're though).
I dunno. FS2 fighters seem very heavily shielded and have very toguh armor - especially the heavy ones like Erynies and Ares. And a lot of gun banks.
Let's not forget the redicolously impossibly large missile capacity compared to SW fighters. Most Imp fighters can't even launch missiles of any kind.
Teh mainstray of hte Imp fleet is a tie-fighter. 2 guns, no missiles, no shield, paper thin hull.
What would be the FS2 equalent? Myrmodon or Herc2?
Myrmodon has 6 weapons banks and can carry a helios. pwnz a tie fighter.
Careful. If you can't land a hit on it, all the firepower in the world won't do you any good. Notice the SW "lasers" move alot faster than FS "lasers", for the most part. And the TIE fighters were a formidable adversary to the Rebels, who had fast, heavily armoured, heavily shielded (both comparitively) ships. One TIE? np. Two? np. Four? Jeez... this is fun. 16? Umm..... HELP MEEEEEEEEEEEEEE! "FOOOOOM!!"
All I know is that I want to see a GTVA vs Empire campaign now. How cool would it be to capture a Tie Defender 'Playing Judas' style, or do bombing runs on a Star Destroyer's bridge, or try dogfighting with Baron Fel? :D
Ya, but be sure to include the confusion that results from Imp / Rebels fighting with each other, and then finding the GTVA, then they discover Vasudans. The GTVA finds the Imps, but doesn't know about the Rebels, perhaps a trigger happy pilot takes them for Imps & opens fire.... Throw the mercs and pirates into the mix and you've got quite the mix-up.
Oh, and I think the Imps and the GTVA would both be in for surprises. Particularly when the Imps find themselves staring down the barrel of their own turbo lasers a few weeks after there were unconfirmed reports a sensor malfunction reporting an untargetable ship buzzing around a Star Destroyer. ;7 And the GTVA comes up against an SSD... only to find out there's more than one. ;)
Oh, and last thing: Then Carl stops by to say hi. Hopefully Luke is around to talk / mindspeak some sense into him.
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I always wanted to have an Imp vs. Shivan campaign... Inspired by that thread over on GameSpot IIRC...
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Course it's unknown if FS2 beams actually penetrate SW shielding without having to overload it. If they can pass then it's fairer, if they can't, then no beam will peneptrate them, (aren't star destroyer's shields rated in the multi-tetratons per second range)
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Multi-tetratons ... Again - based on what ? And that kind of numbers are stupid even for Star Wars ...
I'll TRY to make a mission with a Star Destroyer vs Orion ( and two wings of Ares against multiple wings of Tie fighters ) . No promises that I'll succeed though . . .
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While I personally perfer the older weaker Star wars (more useful in versus).... Course the 200 gigaton beam Sathanas should be thrown out the door then.
Multi-terratons isn't all that great. Anyone have any idea what sidewalls and Culture gridfire is rated at?
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Well, technicly, since both a single Terran Turret and a single turbolaser both destroy a asteroid in one hit, I'd say their BASIC weapons are comparable in strength.
F'course, the jump from Terran Laser to a BFGreen is HUGE compared to a jump from a smaller turbolaser to a bigger turbolaser.
There's no doubt in my mind that Fs capships could eat star destroyers for lunch.
The thing is, GTVA has a 100 of those things, while the Imps have trousands.
The GTVA does seem to have excellent pilots that dont' seem to be pure cannonfodder, unlike the imps.
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Multi-tetratons ... Again - based on what ? And that kind of numbers are stupid even for Star Wars ...
I'll TRY to make a mission with a Star Destroyer vs Orion ( and two wings of Ares against multiple wings of Tie fighters ) . No promises that I'll succeed though . . .
Based on blowing up a ****ing planet in one shot, among other things.
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Isn't Harbingers 5000MT (5GT [is 1 MT = 1/1000 GT?]) and does 3200 damage? so about 1.5625 points per MT. the wiki shows the BFRED at 11550, which converts to 18046.88MT (18GT?)
18*4 for the sathanas results in 72GT... Murderous for star trek, ehh for star wars, and 'huh what was that?' for culture. not sure how warhammer 40k would see it
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18*4 for the sathanas results in 72GT
On the other hand all that damage goes straight to the hull, bypassing the shields (although leaving them intact)
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All I know is that I want to see a GTVA vs Empire campaign now. How cool would it be to capture a Tie Defender 'Playing Judas' style, or do bombing runs on a Star Destroyer's bridge, or try dogfighting with Baron Fel? :D
Lets wait for the SWC TC for FS2!
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<Spock>
......Fascinating.....
</Spock>
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Isn't Harbingers 5000MT (5GT [is 1 MT = 1/1000 GT?]) and does 3200 damage? so about 1.5625 points per MT. the wiki shows the BFRED at 11550, which converts to 18046.88MT (18GT?)
18*4 for the sathanas results in 72GT... Murderous for star trek, ehh for star wars, and 'huh what was that?' for culture. not sure how warhammer 40k would see it
Such numbers are useles..
For starters, hwo do we know a Joul in SW universe equals our Joul.
Since it's impossible for the Death Star to fire such beam....Assuming a 100% matter to energy conversion and a 10 times larger Death Satar, even if you then convert the whole mass of the station into energy it wouldn't be enough to reach the "official" number.
I mean, you could just as well write that a SW laser has a power of 100000000^10000 Terra Watts, but when it takes 20 shots to take out a small asteroid barely larger than a fighter, you KNOW something ain't right. Or vice versa.
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IIRC Imp's have 2 sets of shields, ray shields to protect against lasers, and particle shields to protect against missiles and other physical objects. I think this is stated in either the X-Wing series of books or the Black Fleet Crisis trilogy, possibly both
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Armour: For a comparison of these two, we must look to a common baseline, some attack which exists in both sources: Asteroids. The GTVA's destroyers are shown able to withstand impacts by several asteroids. An Imperial Star Destroyer's Bridge tower is struck by an asteroid of similar size, though greater speed, and is destroyed. This suggests that the hull armour of the GTVA's ships is greater than that of a Star Destroyer, though debatably considering the Asteroid seen in Star Wars had a greater kinetic energy.
We don't know that the bridge in ESB was destroyed. All we saw was its commander getting knocked around and his transmission cutting off. It could easily have just shook the bridge and damaged their comm system.
And at any rate, the fleet had been in the asteroid field searching for the Millennium Falcon for quite some time when that happened, much longer than a GTVA ship would be able to survive in an asteroid field. Those asteroid missions are over within minutes and the ship's hull is still typically at critical levels by the end of them. I agree with the rest of your points, but this scene in now way indicates that Imperial armour is weaker than what the GTVA uses, and considering the fact that it's able to stand up to barrages from the much stronger Star Wars weapons I think it's safe to conclude that Imperial armour is significantly stronger than GTVA armour as well.I just had another thought, some people say that the empire has hordes of fighters and bombers (no doubt true), but do any of those fighters have shields? Do they have weapons that are actually useful against FS shields (xazer, etc)? This would actually give FS a huge advantage, especially flak equiped capital ships (any unshielded fighter can be torn apart in seconds by flak, regardless of the universe).
All I know is that I want to see a GTVA vs Empire campaign now. How cool would it be to capture a Tie Defender 'Playing Judas' style, or do bombing runs on a Star Destroyer's bridge, or try dogfighting with Baron Fel?
Sounds awesome, so who's going to start fredding it? :D
Shield interactions are visible on TIE-Fighters in the movies. It's only the EU that says they're unshielded, and the EU also adds quite a few shielded fighters to the Empire's arsenal. Also, we know that the Rebels are able to shield their ships, so it's obvious that the technology exists to do so in the Star Wars universe, even if the Empire may choose not to employ it universally.thus rendering Fighter attack relatively useless against the might of the Imperial shielding
Then how did A-wings destroy the shield generators in ROTJ in about five shots?
The entire Rebel fleet had been bombarding the Executor with turbolaser fire for quite a while before the A-Wings swooped in, took advantage of the ship's dropped bridge shields and destroyed one of its sensor domes. It was the fleet that took down its shields, not the A-Wings.
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How would the GTVA stand up to the Imperial Navy or vice versa, if from some strange occurrence involving a jump node, a black hole, and an experimental drive system, the universes were brought together?
The Imperial Navy completely crushes them into the ground. The Medium guns on the Acclamator, a friggin glorified transport, outputs roughly 200 gigatons according the the Attack of the Clones: Incredible Cross Section, per shot. The Imperator-I-class Star Destroyer, the same type that Lord Vader's flagship The Devasator was in ANH, is far larger than the Acclamator, roughly two times Acclams size.
An Imperator-I(The Imperial-class SD) can slag a planet in roughly an hour's time, and leave it so badly devastaed that it cannot ever support life again. By comparison, the Shivan Destroyer Lucifer did this in 13 hours to Vasuda Prime in FS1. This is not even counting that there are ships far stronger than the ISD in the Imperial Fleet, most notalbly the Executor-class Star Dreadnought, which is quote by SW: Inside the Worlds, by James Luceno, as having over 5000 weapons total, The Eclipse, most notably for having a superlaser than can crack-open planets.
The Empire by A New Hope had One Million worlds, and an assorted number of colonies, some numbers going as far as 50 million total. By comparison the the GTVA has 35 by FS2.
GTVA ships are though to have roughly output 10-30GT per beam cannon, per second. That's the heavy weapons. According to RotS:ICS, The Venator, an older, outdated stardestroyer by the OT, can hit targets as far as eight light-minutes away, and at full power it's heavy turbo-lasers can do as much damage as a type-ten Earthquake. Said quake can output roughly a Teraton at least. Adding to this, the The Venator can dump it's entire reactor-output into the guns, and the reactor is quoted by the RotS:ICS yet again, to annilate 40,000 tonnes of hypermatter persecond.
The Imperator-II Star Destroyer has no less than sixty-four heavy turbo-lasers on it's broadsides. The Heavy batteries are arranged in eights per HTL battery on the side of the model.
Further more, the turbolasers that destroyed the asteroids in ESB from the Avenger were the light guns. And unlike the GTVA's AA guns, the LTLs resulted in complete vapourisation of said asteroids.
As far as FTl is concered, the GTVA's jump drives can go to systems very quickly, they are also badly restricted. Hyperspace travel used by the SW-verse has no such limitations.
Really, this is a curbstomp, at best.Isn't Harbingers 5000MT (5GT [is 1 MT = 1/1000 GT?]) and does 3200 damage? so about 1.5625 points per MT. the wiki shows the BFRED at 11550, which converts to 18046.88MT (18GT?)
18*4 for the sathanas results in 72GT... Murderous for star trek, ehh for star wars, and 'huh what was that?' for culture. not sure how warhammer 40k would see it
Such numbers are useles..
For starters, hwo do we know a Joul in SW universe equals our Joul.
I joule is a Joule, no? A Joule is an exact unit of measurement, just like a megaton, and just like a metre. They are assumed to be the same unless proven otherwise.
Since it's impossible for the Death Star to fire such beam....Assuming a 100% matter to energy conversion and a 10 times larger Death Satar, even if you then convert the whole mass of the station into energy it wouldn't be enough to reach the "official" number.
The Death Star is powered by an enormus hypermatter reactor that outputted more energy in one second in than the entirety of the Alpha quadrant powers ever in ST. The DS delivered, according to Mr. Mike Wong, roughly 50,000 times the energy nessary to destroy a planet. It popped Alderaan and it's planetary shield like a frag grenade.
I mean, you could just as well write that a SW laser has a power of 100000000^10000 Terra Watts, but when it takes 20 shots to take out a small asteroid barely larger than a fighter, you KNOW something ain't right. Or vice versa.
You're wrong. What I saw in ESB was the light batteries vapourising 10-15 metre wide asteroids in one shot, with no debris at all.
18*4 for the sathanas results in 72GT
On the other hand all that damage goes straight to the hull, bypassing the shields (although leaving them intact)
Prove that Star Wars Shields behave like FS fighter shields. The ISD has shielding that's been pegged somewhere as being around one or two peatons. You now have to prove that GT weaponry that's weaker than a medium TL will automatically punch through any Imperial shielding.
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The GTVA needed ancient 5-legged cyber-organic killers with plasma accelerators built into their carapace to defeat them. The Empire required some kind of pre-historic Care-Bear....
The Imperials were overconfident. The Return of the Jedi novelisation quite clearly states that after the initial attack, the Imperial's regrouped and slaughtered Ewoks left, right, and centre before Chewbacca jacked that AT-ST.
Further more, this should never have to delve into land combat. All the Imperials need to do is jump into orbit, and BDZ a planet. An ISD can leave a significant amount of a planet slagged in a few minutes, and jump out before the GTVA can pursue.
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Strategic Maneuverability: Freespace ships posess Jump Drives, allowing them to travel great distances at great speed. Star Wars ships posess Hyperspace capability, which is very similar. Unfortunately the individual travel times can not be compared in these two, given the rather fuzzy timescale used by both sources. The GTVA, however, have an additional limitation that the Imperial Navy do not have to worry about: To travel between systems the GTVA must use jumpgates. This allows the Imperial navy greater flexibility to conduct attacks or redeploy forces at will.
Edge: The Imperial Navy.
IIR, travel time between any two systems in FS 2 is rougly 10 minutes. distance seems to change very little regarding travel time.
That's because many systems that we see in the SW series are thousands of light-years between each other. GTVA systems aren't very far part(Given the fact that they are still pretty close to earth...)
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And at any rate, the fleet had been in the asteroid field searching for the Millennium Falcon for quite some time when that happened, much longer than a GTVA ship would be able to survive in an asteroid field. Those asteroid missions are over within minutes and the ship's hull is still typically at critical levels by the end of them. I agree with the rest of your points, but this scene in now way indicates that Imperial armour is weaker than what the GTVA uses, and considering the fact that it's able to stand up to barrages from the much stronger Star Wars weapons I think it's safe to conclude that Imperial armour is significantly stronger than GTVA armour as well.
The fleet has been outside of the fleet and sent fighters searching. Then only after the DIRECT orders of Darth Wader they entered, and even then it's was obvious hte captains were scared like ****z. If the asteroids can't tuch you why would you be afraid?
In the scene you can acually see the asteroid plunging itslef into the star destroyer. Look a bit closer.
Shield interactions are visible on TIE-Fighters in the movies. It's only the EU that says they're unshielded, and the EU also adds quite a few shielded fighters to the Empire's arsenal. Also, we know that the Rebels are able to shield their ships, so it's obvious that the technology exists to do so in the Star Wars universe, even if the Empire may choose not to employ it universally.
Must be some REALLY weak shields then. A single blast in the move destroys a Tie-Fighter.
All SW games say Tie's are unshielded b.t.w.
The entire Rebel fleet had been bombarding the Executor with turbolaser fire for quite a while before the A-Wings swooped in, took advantage of the ship's dropped bridge shields and destroyed one of its sensor domes. It was the fleet that took down its shields, not the A-Wings.
Agreed. However, this doesn't prove that fighter weapons are ineffective against star destroyers. Why would the pilots shoot then?
A good proof that fighter weapons (lasers) can realyl hurt even big ships is the attakc on the death star. now that thing has o have far thicker armor and shielding than the executor, yet X-wings strafed and fired their lasers on it's surface, blowing cannons and towers like crazy.
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The fleet has been outside of the fleet and sent fighters searching. Then only after the DIRECT orders of Darth Wader they entered, and even then it's was obvious hte captains were scared like ****z. If the asteroids can't tuch you why would you be afraid?
I never claimed that the asteroids couldn't "tuch" and ISD, simply that an ISD could take a heavier beating than a GTVA ship could, which you have not refuted.
In the scene you can acually see the asteroid plunging itslef into the star destroyer. Look a bit closer.
Yes, and the camera cuts away before the debris field clears so we don't know how much damage it actually did. At any rate, as I mentioned before, the fleet had already been soaking up damage from the asteroids for much longer than any FS asteroid mission by this point. Even if that asteroid destroyed the bridge, the ship undoubtedly took several more impacts before that point. We just saw the last one.
Must be some REALLY weak shields then. A single blast in the move destroys a Tie-Fighter.
Or it could simply be that Star Wars laser blasts are exceptionally powerful.
All SW games say Tie's are unshielded b.t.w.
Zaarin had a squadron of shielded TIEs in TIE-Fighter, proving that it's quite possible to equip that type of ship with shields, even if it's not normally done. The games also introduced several other shielded Imperial craft that would make short work of any GTVA fighter.
Agreed. However, this doesn't prove that fighter weapons are ineffective against star destroyers. Why would the pilots shoot then?
A good proof that fighter weapons (lasers) can realyl hurt even big ships is the attakc on the death star. now that thing has o have far thicker armor and shielding than the executor, yet X-wings strafed and fired their lasers on it's surface, blowing cannons and towers like crazy.
And doing entirely superficial damage. The fighters were below the Death Star's shields at that point anyway.
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I think this thread should be locked now, because just like all other universe vs. universe discussion, this one is going to become a flamewar real soon. I at least enjoyed the posts that were actually debating.
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*Supports argument
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Umm ... Does anyone know where I could download a Star Destroyer in a 'ready-to-be-put-into-freespace' condition ( with tbling , in .pof format , etc. ) ? I could ( correction : anyone could ) make a mission and see for themselves who would win ( if tables aren't mixed-up ) .
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Umm ... Does anyone know where I could download a Star Destroyer in a 'ready-to-be-put-into-freespace' condition ( with tbling , in .pof format , etc. ) ? I could ( correction : anyone could ) make a mission and see for themselves who would win ( if tables aren't mixed-up ) .
MetelDestroyer has one IIRC.
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Stop flaming people!
Some old screens
(http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/5850/screen0186ma5.jpg)
(http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/8905/screen0191bo5.jpg)
(http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/4733/screen0193ar6.jpg)
See?
He has StarDestroyers.
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Uh guys? If we're going to go at Star Wars, how about first reading the seminar work on the absurdity of 800 gigatons, written by a certain Cannikin:
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,13735.60.html
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,13735.80.html
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OH yea (let me get this in) if the empire attacks the GTVA the GTVA might team up with the rebels. :drevil:
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Man, I feel sorry for Coruscant during the Battle of Coruscant. Not just one but thousands of stray multi-gigaton turbolaser shots showering one's planet is sure to ruin the day. Yup.
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It would certainly suck if Coruscant didn't have shields. Luckily, it does.
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Holy crap. This thread is about 30 posts overdue for a lockdown smackdown.
In the interests of not throwing out the baby with the bathwater, I've attempted to prune out the inflammatory posts. I don't have all day to baby-sit you guys, though, so if things get out of control again, I'm simply going to lock the whole thread and be done with it.
And Desert Tyrant, your tone and wording was egregiously inflammatory. I don't care if you're right or not, and I don't care if ShadowGorrath was provoking you or not (in my judgement, he wasn't) your behavior was inexcusable. Enjoy your two-day ban.
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IIRC Imp's have 2 sets of shields, ray shields to protect against lasers, and particle shields to protect against missiles and other physical objects. I think this is stated in either the X-Wing series of books or the Black Fleet Crisis trilogy, possibly both
Particle shields... that's the name.. thx. ;)
The entire Rebel fleet had been bombarding the Executor with turbolaser fire for quite a while before the A-Wings swooped in, took advantage of the ship's dropped bridge shields and destroyed one of its sensor domes. It was the fleet that took down its shields, not the A-Wings.
I was going to point that out... nicely done, and very true. Remember? "Concentrate all firepower on that Super Star Destroyer!" /Admiral Akbar So the entire rebel fleet was taking potshots at the SSD if and when possible. It'd be like you swooping down on an SF Mara, and killing it with one Fury (or Tempest, I get them mixed up) shot, then saying that its shield systems are weak, not mentioning that your wingmen had all been pounding on it for 10 seconds with Prometheus fire, and had gotten its shields and hull down to about 0. :D
An Imperator-I(The Imperial-class SD) can slag a planet in roughly an hour's time, and leave it so badly devastaed that it cannot ever support life again....
The Eclipse, most notably for having a superlaser than can crack-open planets.
Then explain Solo stating that Alderaan "couldn't" have been destroyed by the Imperial forces after Obi-Wan explicitly stated it was so? Although, now that I think of it, there is a big difference between vaporizing and glassing a planet.
And the Eclipse wasn't created until after RotJ, and was destroyed rather easily, IIRC (as it was not designed to defend itself and did not have good escort, IIRC).
Holy crap. This thread is about 30 posts overdue for a lockdown smackdown.
In the interests of not throwing out the baby with the bathwater, I've attempted to prune out the inflammatory posts.
Umm.... :nervous: Glad I missed it. Guys, it's just fiction and games!! Jeez! o.O
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I know it's just fiction and games , I never try to flame anyone for games and etc. I never really intent to flame anyone at all for that matter ...
Anyway , I still say that FreeSpace would win . You can view a video on youtube from 'Their Finest Hour' mission ( there are two about that mission ) , where a Cain and Lilith fires anti-fighter beams at the player . Shields got NO damage , but the hull got medium damage . So I don't see any way that SW shields could work against beams . And anyway , beam cannons are based on photons . And shields don't protect against photons ( which is light , as far as I know ) .
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Course if we go by canon stats, the freespace ship wouldn't have time to fire it's big beam cannons.
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It has a lot of armour though , so it'll have time to fire . And a Sathanas can power-up much faster than any GTVA ship .
EDIT: Though the GTVA can win against a lot of ships , it would eventually be beaten by the Imperials because of the sheer numbers ... :( Though you got to admit - the GTVA knows how to survive .
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I never claimed that the asteroids couldn't "tuch" and ISD, simply that an ISD could take a heavier beating than a GTVA ship could, which you have not refuted.
Single asteroid hits a FS detroyer...meh, jsut a scratch
Single asteroid hits Imp Destroyer... big explosion, no bridge.
At any rate, as I mentioned before, the fleet had already been soaking up damage from the asteroids for much longer than any FS asteroid mission by this point. Even if that asteroid destroyed the bridge, the ship undoubtedly took several more impacts before that point. We just saw the last one.
Where do you get that from? Have you timed them? From what I gather the ammount of time the Imp destroyers spent in the asteoid belt was rather short.
And that still raises the question - why were the captains so friggin scared of going into the asteroid field?
By your own claim they have far more guns, smaller profile and more powerful lweapons than FS2 ships. Not to mention a sh**load of fighters to boot.
Yet FS ship merilly go into asteroid fields wihtout being under threat of painfull death first.
Agreed. However, this doesn't prove that fighter weapons are ineffective against star destroyers. Why would the pilots shoot then?
A good proof that fighter weapons (lasers) can realyl hurt even big ships is the attakc on the death star. now that thing has o have far thicker armor and shielding than the executor, yet X-wings strafed and fired their lasers on it's surface, blowing cannons and towers like crazy.
And doing entirely superficial damage. The fighters were below the Death Star's shields at that point anyway.
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Blowing huge towers is superficial damage to you? Heck if a dozen X-wings can damage a Death Star and blow off it's turret,s think what they would do a far smaller and less armored target, like a Star Deystroyer. Their amor sucks big time.
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Is there a place to get all SW's ships and weapons ready for FS2?
I'll try MetelDestroyer for that SDestroyer.
It'll be interesting to test out all this.
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It would certainly suck if Coruscant didn't have shields. Luckily, it does.
Those shields sure were effective at keeping the Separatists droid reinforcements off planet (the first wave would have gotten in before they raise the shields I grant). Oh wait they weren't.
Now I know about Ray Shields (the part where Obi-wan and Anakin get trapped by the barrier on the flagship during the Palpatine rescue was a ray shield despite it definitely being able to fry them if they touched it) and Particle Shields, but you'd think that they'd probably raise the particle shields too. Likely there were factors preventing the raising since Coruscant was an enormous metropolis with a huge number of private flying vessels.
Incidentally, the flagship, when it was crashing into the surface, was already in the atmosphere before they notified the Republic forces that the Jedi had taken it over (in the ROTS novelization). If there had been a shield up, they've have been fried.
Then there's the parts where there's two destroyers broadsiding each other in ROTS (ignoring how Ackbar claimed that has never happened before). The shields were down and the shots strike right into the ship. The explosion wasn't even the size of a modern day MOAB, much less multi-gigatons. For some reason the explosions were much smaller whenever there were bodies around to be thrown around XD
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Blowing huge towers is superficial damage to you? Heck if a dozen X-wings can damage a Death Star and blow off it's turret,s think what they would do a far smaller and less armored target, like a Star Deystroyer. Their amor sucks big time.
You keep forgetting the DS and DSII were huge. The DS's shields were high enough from the DS that once you got through it, you were flying under the shields... however, it appears the DS I didn't have particle shields for the entire surface, only ray shields, if even that. Instead, they protected certain areas with shields, relying on their ZOMGWTFBBQ turbolasers that were too ponderous to get a bead on the Rebel's light fighters.
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Strike mission of Pegasus fighters armed with dumbfire rockets to take down the SD's shield generators before the battle, anyone?
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Blowing huge towers is superficial damage to you? Heck if a dozen X-wings can damage a Death Star and blow off it's turret,s think what they would do a far smaller and less armored target, like a Star Deystroyer. Their amor sucks big time.
You keep forgetting the DS and DSII were huge. The DS's shields were high enough from the DS that once you got through it, you were flying under the shields... however, it appears the DS I didn't have particle shields for the entire surface, only ray shields, if even that. Instead, they protected certain areas with shields, relying on their ZOMGWTFBBQ turbolasers that were too ponderous to get a bead on the Rebel's light fighters.
Armor..I'm talking about armor. X-wings lasers can blast holes on the Death Starssurface. That doesn't bode well for the "uber armor on Imperial ships" theory.
DS shields? Appareanlty the X-wings can fly right trough them. IF it even had shields.
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The Death Star doesn't have shields. In a New Hope, it was completely shield-free and the DS-II in ROTJ was protected by shields projected from Endor. If you watch the movie, the shields aren't down yet so Lando has all the fighters pull up. That being said, the Rebels would never have been able to destroy the Death Star by just shooting at its surface, even with cap ships. The thing was just too massive. I think that the Imperials assumed that the Death Star would jump into a system, set up, and blow up the planet in about 45 minutes or so, then jump back out to safety. Thats all speculation on my part though.
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I seem to recall something being said that the vent was too heavily shields for lasers to work hence the attack run but I could just be recalling false lines.
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No, the vent was ray shielded. I do remember that. The Imps didn't think that anyone could manage to get a fighter into the trench and set up a perfect torp shot.
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And they were right, it took the Force to get the torpedo in right.
As for the shielding, I'm glad I remembered correctly.
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OH yea (let me get this in) if the empire attacks the GTVA the GTVA might team up with the rebels. :drevil:
I can't believe I didn't think of this earlier: The Empire's advanced technology and superior numbers count for exactly nothing if the Rebels are involved.
WHY?
Wedge Antilles + Alpha 1 = [/Empire] :cool:
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Wedge Antilles + Alpha 1 = [/Empire] :cool:
QFT!
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OH yea (let me get this in) if the empire attacks the GTVA the GTVA might team up with the rebels. :drevil:
I can't believe I didn't think of this earlier: The Empire's advanced technology and superior numbers count for exactly nothing if the Rebels are involved.
WHY?
Wedge Antilles + Alpha 1 = [/Empire] :cool:
Good Lord, that is one unstoppable combination.
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Exactly. If the rebels are involved then the whole debate pretty much goes out the window.
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Who needs rebels.
Alpha 1 is da man.
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Yes, but he's only one man (or woman for that .1% of the HLP population). Sometimes Alpha 1 needs someone to cover his back, and that would be Wedge. Better yet, take Rogue Squadron from the post-ROTJ days and replace two of the throwaway pilots with Alpha 1 and Snipes. Unstoppable^2. The Shivans would be eliminated within a month. A week if we throw in the Wraiths. :D
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Why not just throw in the bunch of Sathanes?
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I'd say the ultimate "Rogue Squadron" from the FreeSpace/Star Wars Universe would be Wedge, Alpha 1, Snipes, Luke Skywalker, Corran Horn, Gavin Darklighter, Mackie, Wes Janson, Derek "Hobbie" Klivan, Tycho Celchu, Myn Donos, and Pash Cracken
Rogue Leader (1): Wedge
Rogue 2: Tycho
Rogue 3: Hobbie
Rogue 4: Wes
Rogue 5: Alpha 1
Rogue 6: Snipes
Rogue 7: Mackie
Rogue 8: Myn
Rogue 9: Luke
Rogue 10: Gavin
Rogue 11: Corran
Rogue 12: Pash
Rogues 1, 5, and 9 are hard to pick because those are the Flight leaders, and you have to have Wedge be Rogue Leader just because he was for so long. I thought about making Corran 9 because he always was, but Luke needs to be at least a Flight Leader. Feel free to debate about my pilot choices...
EDIT: and Wraith Squadron has to be kept the same just because of their Commando abilities, plus the fact that they're just crazy as hell.
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Holy crap. This thread is about 30 posts overdue for a lockdown smackdown.
In the interests of not throwing out the baby with the bathwater, I've attempted to prune out the inflammatory posts.
Umm.... Glad I missed it. Guys, it's just fiction and games!! Jeez! o.O
I Agree, I missed most of these "inflammatory" posts, but if I had known things would be taken that seriously I might have reconsidered posting. :nervous:
OH yea (let me get this in) if the empire attacks the GTVA the GTVA might team up with the rebels.
This crossed my mind, but I was leaving things open for discussion. (AKA let the readers figure it out :P)
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I'd say the ultimate "Rogue Squadron" from the FreeSpace/Star Wars Universe would be Wedge, Alpha 1, Snipes, Luke Skywalker, Corran Horn, Gavin Darklighter, Mackie, Wes Janson, Derek "Hobbie" Klivan, Tycho Celchu, Myn Donos, and Pash Cracken
Rogue Leader (1): Wedge
Rogue 2: Tycho
Rogue 3: Hobbie
Rogue 4: Wes
Rogue 5: Alpha 1
Rogue 6: Snipes
Rogue 7: Mackie
Rogue 8: Syal
Rogue 9: Corran
Rogue 10: Ooryl
Rogue 11: Gavin
Rogue 12: Myn
Let's see...
One Flight is perfect. Lose Luke because we don't need no stinking Jedi pilots; we can get by on skill and moxy alone.
That said, Corran will have to be pre-Jedi Corran, that is the "Sorry, Luke, I'm too cool for Jedi training now. Maybe later when I'm bored and want to singlehandedly take the most dangerous space pirates ever" Corran. Oh and he'll have to be Rogue 9 because he's Rogue 9. Which means Ooryl will have to be Rogue 10 by the same rationale.
Did Myn end up with the Rogues when all was said and done? If so keep him, otherwise he should stay with the Wraiths. nm looked on wookiepedia.
Keep Gavin, lose Pash. He's not that special.
That leaves one or two spaces depending on Myn space...
Let's pull a timewarp and throw in Syal Antilles. She was a sufficiently awesome pilot in Betrayal.
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Pash is better in A-Wings anyways. Okay, Corran and Ooryl have to be together just like Wedge and Tycho. We can throw Luke out if you want, I guess. Myn Transferred to the Rogues at the end of the last Wraith Squadron book. So the one open spot: I'd see three options: Syal, Bror Jace, or what about Soontir Fel? He was with Rogue Squadron for a while before defecting to the Imperials and ending up with the Hand of Thrawn, who aren't exactly enemies of the New Republic.
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Bror isn't that important, Fel is cooler as an Imperial, so it's gotta be Syal. It would be a little weird though, having father and daughter in the same squadron. Still, everyone else on the list is male (well, Alpha 1 doesn't have to be) and I think we need at least one female pilot, and Syal is the most kick-A female pilot I can think of. :blah:
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Inyri Forge is another possibility. She was in Rogue Squadron for years
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Didn't she die?
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I know that Lujayne Forge died, she did in the first X-Wing book
EDIT: I looked at Wookieepedia and Inyri is still alive at the end of the NJO series. I don't know about Legacy, i haven't read the most recent books of that series yet, but she hasn't been in it anyway.