Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Hyper Ion on November 30, 2007, 08:50:19 pm
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Okay, let's assume for a moment that the nebula beyond Gamma Draconis was the result of a Shivan-triggered supernova. Let's also take into account Bosch's estimation that the supernova occurred 8,000 years prior to 'current events'. Finally, the last item for the table, the Ancients' destruction, also, 8,000 years prior to 'current events'.
How did the Second Knossos get in the nebula system if a supernova occurred there some time around the Ancients' demise? Give or take a few hundred years in between the events, I'm having trouble figuring out this little paradox and am surprised it hasn't been considered.
Case 1 involves the Knossos network already being established before the Shivan encounter. If this is the case, wouldn't the supernova caused by the Shivans have destroyed the jump gate? I'm certain that if three insignificant meson bombs could destroy the portal, a blast of a supernova would most certainly wipe it out, if it not cripple the device like the initial shockwave did to the Deimos and Moloch. Either way, that Knossos shouldn't work anymore if Case 1 is true.
Case 2 involves the Knossos network being established after the Shivan encounter and after the supernova. Now, if this seems probable to you, bear with me. The Ancients' view of the Shivans was that they were the almighty avenging horror of the cosmos. If they supernova'd the star in that now-dead system, what possible reason would the Ancients have for going back to that place. Even if they did want to make the Knossos network to explore what sort of Shivan activity was going on beyond the abyss, how would the ships survive the super-heated cloud? It takes centuries if not millenia for these nebulae to cool down. By that time, the Shivans have killed off the Ancients.
Case 3 involves the Shivans rebuilding the Knossos network, perhaps bringing in one of the devices from out of system. The problem with this Case is the Shivans themselves. Since when did they, for a xenocidal terror, use other species' technology? Sure, they travel via the Knossos devices, but I feel that's because they see the devices as jump nodes. It just so happens there's an old enemy's artifact making it possible, but the Shivans ignore that fact.
Case 4 proposes a whacky theory in which Bosch helps the Shivans build a Knossos from recovered pieces. This is whacky because it's... whacky. How would Bosch sneak the pieces through a GTVA secured node? How would this newly assembled Knossos stabilize a node that quickly anyways, while allowing enough time to call in the Sathanas Armada? Lastly, there's no evidence that is even remotely related to this theory... which is whacky.
Case 5 involves time loops. I won't explain as this isn't a real proposition for why the Second Knossos exists.
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Case 0: it's a game.
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What if the star was already been in a super nova then the ancients started build the Knossos network.
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that is the most likely theory. there is no reason to believe that any nodes the Ancients might have used and that collapsed over time (which would have required the building of a knossos device... i.e: in gamma draconis) wouldnt lead to a system already occupied by nebulae. Maybe the nebula's system(man it'd be nice to know which nebula it is) also contained an unstable node which required a 2nd device to be built to stabilize it. The third Knossos in the Twin-Star System you explore for 15 minutes with Lt. Comm Snipes in that lasp loop mission would lead to yet another system.
Another thing that makes it possible:
If the GTVA was forced to collapse both the Epsilon Pegasi and Vega nodes using decommissionned Orions packed with meson bombs, it means the destruction of a star wouldnt automatically cause the destruction of the nodes. Besides, that wouldn't make any sense. If anything, I believe the Shivans would NEVER willingly collapse a subspace corridor.
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Maybe the Knossos self-repair?
No real support for that theory, however.
I don't know. This is an excellent question (and that Case Zero is cheating, and takes the fun out of it!)
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SIGH...
I hate when you know these things would be explained in a sequel, yet no sequel will ever exist. These things take the fun out of almost every single discussion.
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Didn't it say in the game somewhere (I remember Petrarch saying it) that the Ancients first encountered the Shivans in the Nebula?
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Said that the Gamma Draconis-Nebula node led to the section of the galaxy where the Ancients first en****ered the shivans.
My interpetation of this was:
The nebula was the first stop on the road that led the ancients to the Shivans...
Analogy time: Roads= jump nodes
City=Star system
the ancients army start out on the road from Edinburgh to Canturberry...
The army then stops at the next big city on the route, say Newcastle...Newcastle = Nebula...
They continue south, stoping off at the next city Leeds (Binary system)...
The Shivans are either waiting in Melton Mowbray area or active in the area ie a few patrols....
Cambridge, the next big city is positivly swarming with shivan troops...
Just because the Nebula was the first stop on the route, it doesnt mean that that was where the shivans first encountered by the Ancients
The ancients build the knossos and enter the nebula and start exploring.
They then find an unstable node, set up the 2nd Knossos and travel to the next system (the Binary System).
After they setup Knossos 3 in the Binary system, they either encounter the shivans who were waiting on the other side (Think something like the Aliens from B5: Thirdspace), or shivans started
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I think the easiest explanation is that the Knossos was actually outside the most destructive blast range of the supernova, and that the nebula has since diffused to the point where it encompasses the Knossos.
Nebulae are big.
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I agree with the last statement
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Then how come it was in the nebula?
It would not have effected it if it wasn't in the nebula.
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Because the nebula expanded over time.
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I think the easiest explanation is that the Knossos was actually outside the most destructive blast range of the supernova, and that the nebula has since diffused to the point where it encompasses the Knossos.
Nebulae are big.
I think that's the most reasonable theory. :yes:
Or, the Knossos was constructed afterwards.
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I think the easiest explanation is that the Knossos was actually outside the most destructive blast range of the supernova, and that the nebula has since diffused to the point where it encompasses the Knossos.
Nebulae are big.
This makes a lot of sense. :yes: Unfortunately, the Knossos has to be relatively close (i.e. within the boundaries of a standard solar system, according to the FS2 tech database) to the parent star to be accessible via an intrasystem subspace jump. It's not clear whether "relatively close" is far enough away for the shockwave to sufficiently dissipate.
Another possibility is that the Knossos was installed after-the-fact in order to "lock the door" as the Ancients retreated. This, of course, presupposes the controversial theory that Knossoi can act as node destabilizers.
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This makes a lot of sense. :yes: Unfortunately, the Knossos has to be relatively close (i.e. within the boundaries of a standard solar system, according to the FS2 tech database) to the parent star to be accessible via an intrasystem subspace jump. It's not clear whether "relatively close" is far enough away for the shockwave to sufficiently dissipate.
Well it's a nebula so maybe it's slightly different. Nebulae are big, but maybe there's some extra gravitational stuff that allows the GTVA to go to the further reaches of the nebula. Or maybe there are forming suns in the nebula which can be used as the gravitational "center" thing for subspace jumps.
Another possibility is that the Knossos was installed after-the-fact in order to "lock the door" as the Ancients retreated. This, of course, presupposes the controversial theory that Knossoi can act as node destabilizers.
I kind of hate that theory, myself. The Knossos in Gamma Drax was activated after the Trinity arrived, that's why it wasn't detected by the Erikson. Then the Shivans came. The Knossos is a stabilizer, not a lock.
I was under the impression when I first played the game, that the Shivans blew up the star of the Nebula, the Ancients had a look-see through the portal, went around poking into Gamma Drax, then the Shivans kicked their ass.
The plural of Knossos is Knossoi? Cool. XD
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Well it's a nebula so maybe it's slightly different. Nebulae are big, but maybe there's some extra gravitational stuff that allows the GTVA to go to the further reaches of the nebula. Or maybe there are forming suns in the nebula which can be used as the gravitational "center" thing for subspace jumps.
You forget that we're assuming they built the Knossos before the star got nebularized. :p
Of course, if the star was huge, the maximum range for intrasystem subspace jumps is increased. But the exposive strength is increased at the same time, so it's a question of which factor wins out.
Ultimately, we may not be able to settle on a definite answer. Unless, of course, we break the 4th wall and call it a plot hole that :v: didn't consider. :p
I was under the impression when I first played the game, that the Shivans blew up the star of the Nebula, the Ancients had a look-see through the portal, went around poking into Gamma Drax, then the Shivans kicked their ass.
If the Shivans started immediately kicking ass, then why did the Ancients bother constructing Knossoi in the nebula and in the binary system?
The plural of Knossos is Knossoi? Cool. XD
Yup. Learned that from Ace. It's Greek, like Sathanas, albeit with a different declension.
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You forget that we're assuming they built the Knossos before the star got nebularized. :p
Of course, if the star was huge, the maximum range for intrasystem subspace jumps is increased. But the exposive strength is increased at the same time, so it's a question of which factor wins out.
Ultimately, we may not be able to settle on a definite answer. Unless, of course, we break the 4th wall and call it a plot hole that :v: didn't consider. :p
I always thought that the Ancients are more advanced than the GTVA in the area of subspace...
If the Shivans started immediately kicking ass, then why did the Ancients bother constructing Knossoi in the nebula and in the binary system?
Maybe the Ancients wanted to do more poking around, but then got their asses kicked.
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Nebulas are HUGE - they can easily encompass a few star systems...are we even sure the origin of this nebula (the star that went boom) was in the same system as the Konossos? It could the the system next to it went kabloie .
Alternativly, it's ROUGHLY 8000 years, so it's possible that the star went boom, a 100-200 years later the Anicents set up a knososs, only to be chased away by the shivies.
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Alternativly, it's ROUGHLY 8000 years, so it's possible that the star went boom, a 100-200 years later the Anicents set up a knososs, only to be chased away by the shivies.
Methinkies this.
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Actually the only reason for thinking that the shivans created the nebula is because of bosch's supposition that the Pharohs saw this. :v:Never confirm this.
For all we know, the nebula could be on the other side of the galaxy ~ 100k lightyears or in another galaxy all together
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Well I doubt :v: would put in these hints only for them to be proven wrong, IMO.
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Didn't it say in the game somewhere (I remember Petrarch saying it) that the Ancients first encountered the Shivans in the Nebula?
Nope.
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Didn't it say in the game somewhere (I remember Petrarch saying it) that the Ancients first encountered the Shivans in the Nebula?
Nope.
Actually, I too recall hearing it. But I think it was just one of Bosch's feverish mumblings.
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Nope. There's absolutely NO mention whatsoever that the ancients met hte shivans in the nebula.
check all the monolouges in the Wiki if you don't believe me.
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Quiet, you. I just found it:
Through a rigorous study of Ancient archeology, Bosch learned the location of the Knossos subspace device, the portal to the region of the galaxy where the Ancients first encountered the Shivans.
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Doesn't say it was in the exact nebula, it says in the region.
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On the subject of how the Knossos survived, they are right, nebulae are big. In fact they are hundreds if not thousands (need to brush up on my astronomy) of light years across. So this Knossos was sitting there for many years after the star went boom. Likely by then the gas and dust calmly swept through like a settling fog, possibly feeding the Knossos system's star with the extra hydrogen and keeping it alive longer, not that this matters to us.
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What he said (damn my slow reply speed :P )
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It's worth pointing out that there is at least one star in the nebula. Every single mission has a sun in it. Haven't checked if they are all the same colour though.
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I think the easiest explanation is that the Knossos was actually outside the most destructive blast range of the supernova, and that the nebula has since diffused to the point where it encompasses the Knossos.
Nebulae are big.
This makes a lot of sense. :yes: Unfortunately, the Knossos has to be relatively close (i.e. within the boundaries of a standard solar system, according to the FS2 tech database) to the parent star to be accessible via an intrasystem subspace jump. It's not clear whether "relatively close" is far enough away for the shockwave to sufficiently dissipate.
Another possibility is that the Knossos was installed after-the-fact in order to "lock the door" as the Ancients retreated. This, of course, presupposes the controversial theory that Knossoi can act as node destabilizers.
Can you really call it a theory when there's absolutely no data at all that supports it? It's more like a "crazy counterintuitive notion" then a theory.
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Doesn't say it was in the exact nebula, it says in the region.
Thats what I was trying to say in my first post
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I think the easiest explanation is that the Knossos was actually outside the most destructive blast range of the supernova, and that the nebula has since diffused to the point where it encompasses the Knossos.
Nebulae are big.
This makes a lot of sense. :yes: Unfortunately, the Knossos has to be relatively close (i.e. within the boundaries of a standard solar system, according to the FS2 tech database) to the parent star to be accessible via an intrasystem subspace jump. It's not clear whether "relatively close" is far enough away for the shockwave to sufficiently dissipate.
Another possibility is that the Knossos was installed after-the-fact in order to "lock the door" as the Ancients retreated. This, of course, presupposes the controversial theory that Knossoi can act as node destabilizers.
Can you really call it a theory when there's absolutely no data at all that supports it? It's more like a "crazy counterintuitive notion" then a theory.
Logic my good man. Konososs stablises nodes that already are there.. and nodes only form in systems, near the presence of strong gravity wells.
So yeah, it has to be relatively close.
And the Knossos was either constructed after the star went kablooie or the star that went kablooie wasn't in the same systems as the knososs. Those are hte only logical explanations I can think of.
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Quiet, you. I just found it:
Through a rigorous study of Ancient archeology, Bosch learned the location of the Knossos subspace device, the portal to the region of the galaxy where the Ancients first encountered the Shivans.
That just means the general region...it doesn't specifically state the nebula. Given that there is a second Knossos in the nebula and another Knossos beyond that (in the SOC mission) it makes logical sense that the nebula was not the point of contact beyond beyond that. If the Ancients made contact in the nebula and were so completely outclassed by the Shivans then its unlikely they would have expended the resources to build a further two Knossos portals (and possibly more) to expand beyond just the one system.
The nebula isn't strictly evidence of a Sathanas type forced supernova either. Nebula's exist and its perfectly reasonable to assume that this one was there when the Ancients arrived and built their portals. It would also be my guess that the supernova detonation of Capella was both a rare event (losses of multiple Sathanas are something that probably make the Shivans blink too) as well as not being a weapon but more likely some form of subspace travel over very long distances.
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Seeing as how the Sathanases survived the nebula explosion (possibly), a Knossos may have been able to stand up to that kind of blast. Perhaps the Knossos network was more well-maintained at the time and had a strong shield system, perhaps even an impenetrable Lucifer style system. Most likely, it's just something that Volition didn't think of, but there's always an excuse.
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Is it known if Knossoi can create nodes by themselves, or if they merely stabilize naturally-occuring ones?
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I think it was Petrarch, who hypothesized that they might be able to create new jump nodes. No one seemed to be sure.
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We know that they stablisise existing nodes, everything else is speculation.
IIRC, the Sol-Delta Serpentis node can be fixed with the Knossos. Severed/collapsed nodes still exist but are unusable for travel
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My guess would be that the ancients found a destabilised node, so they put a Knossos on it and restabilised it. They then entered the nebula, and found another destabilised node which they then stuck another Knossos on it. Both nodes were probably destabilised past the point of being usable for ship travel by the supernova, which explains why they would be needed. Later the Shivans come blasting through and they turn off the Knossos in Gamma Draconis. Without the Knossos stabilising the node it collapses after some (probably quite long) period of time.
Or, if you want to call it a fairly short amount of time you could also say it traps the Shivan fleet that nuked the ancients so they never got any of the beams that were later developed so they could be used by something smaller than a huge super destroyer with loads of big powerful generators. Or something.
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Or the Lucy fleet might have just been a old fleet that was never refitted. Do the shivan seven re-fit ships at all, or do they just use them till they get blown away?
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Seeing as how the Sathanases survived the nebula explosion (possibly), a Knossos may have been able to stand up to that kind of blast. Perhaps the Knossos network was more well-maintained at the time and had a strong shield system, perhaps even an impenetrable Lucifer style system. Most likely, it's just something that Volition didn't think of, but there's always an excuse.
How do we know that a Sathanas "survived a nebula explosion" and what is a nebula explosion exactly? Do you mean supernova?
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Maybe a Knossos has a self-defense system. It moved into subspace and remained there for a while, who knows...
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It would be like a door going trough itself .... :lol:
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Another possibility is that the Knossos was installed after-the-fact in order to "lock the door" as the Ancients retreated. This, of course, presupposes the controversial theory that Knossoi can act as node destabilizers.
Can you really call it a theory when there's absolutely no data at all that supports it? It's more like a "crazy counterintuitive notion" then a theory.
Logic my good man. Konososs stablises nodes that already are there.. and nodes only form in systems, near the presence of strong gravity wells.
So yeah, it has to be relatively close.
And the Knossos was either constructed after the star went kablooie or the star that went kablooie wasn't in the same systems as the knososs. Those are hte only logical explanations I can think of.
You misread my post, I was replying to the "Knossos as a node destabilizer" hare-brained notion, which has absolutely no information anywhere in canon to support it, and actually directly contradicts every canon source on the Knossos, hence my disparaging it even being called a "theory".
Occam's Razor suggests the nebula was already there when the Knossos was constructed, who said the Shivans had to have blown it up? Lots of supernovas happen without xenophic aliens triggering them.
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Occam's razor doesn't apply to fiction. Stories try to establish connections between episodes, which is why Volition is likely trying to imply that the Shivans created the nebula.
@N1ghtmr: I should have been more clear, but yeah. If the Sathani "may" have survived the Capella explosion, then a Knossos may have done so as well.
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One thing that piques my interest is, why the Xenophobic aliens that destroy all and kill all, end planets and suns - leave Knossos portals intact?
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Excuse me but i never caught the implication that the Shivans made the nebula. The only evidence for that is that they are capable of makings stars go BOOM!. But other than that, all you've are assumtions.
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Occam's razor doesn't apply to fiction. Stories try to establish connections between episodes, which is why Volition is likely trying to imply that the Shivans created the nebula.
Does Occam's Razor really apply to anything? It's jsut a theoretical mumbo-jumbo with no preactical value whatsoever.
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Excuse me but i never caught the implication that the Shivans made the nebula. The only evidence for that is that they are capable of makings stars go BOOM!. But other than that, all you've are assumtions.
The implication was made by Bosch, to some extent. He said the nebula may be the result of a supernova caused eight thousand years ago. This timeframe is strikingly close to the fall of the Ancients, and the Capella supernova ties it all together.
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Occam's razor doesn't apply to fiction. Stories try to establish connections between episodes, which is why Volition is likely trying to imply that the Shivans created the nebula.
Does Occam's Razor really apply to anything? It's jsut a theoretical mumbo-jumbo with no preactical value whatsoever.
Indeed, no preactical value.
Practical though, abounds.
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One thing that piques my interest is, why the Xenophobic aliens that destroy all and kill all, end planets and suns - leave Knossos portals intact?
As I mentionned early in the thread, I do not believe the shivans would do anything to destroy jump nodes. Maybe they werent sure if the node a knossos is stabilizing would destabilize once its destroyed. Shivans can stabilize nodes anyway, and given the time-frame, the Sathanas must have already been in-transit from the Nebula to Gamma Drac. My guess is the Sath managed to stabilize the node as a last-ditch effort to survive and succeeded, thus making the knossos useless to keep the node stable.
As for the subject, the 2nd knossos itself, my belief, as stated before, is that the nebula was already there.
and as for the size of the nebula, the guesses arent in the thousands of light years. In the first nebula mission (forgot name, but its the fifth non-training mission of the game) one of the pilots launches a guess: "This nebula could be 10 or 20 light-years in diameter, finding a single ship would be impossible"
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Occam's razor doesn't apply to fiction. Stories try to establish connections between episodes, which is why Volition is likely trying to imply that the Shivans created the nebula.
Does Occam's Razor really apply to anything? It's jsut a theoretical mumbo-jumbo with no preactical value whatsoever.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor
[Occam's Razor] is often paraphrased as "All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best."
This is hardly pure theory considering that we use this concept every day in our lives. It's just a formal definition of common sense.
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The implication was made by Bosch, to some extent. He said the nebula may be the result of a supernova caused eight thousand years ago. This timeframe is strikingly close to the fall of the Ancients, and the Capella supernova ties it all together.
ROUGHLY..as well as ROUGHLY the guesstimate of the ancients demise. A error margin of 100-200 years is quite a lot mind you :P
Quote from: Wikipedia
[Occam's Razor] is often paraphrased as "All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best."
This is hardly pure theory considering that we use this concept every day in our lives. It's just a formal definition of common sense.
Not really.. a simple solution is no more likely to be true than a more complex one.
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Alright. Take two coins. Flip them. You have two predictions as to what's more likely to happen:
A) At least one coin will be heads
B) Both coins will be heads
Now which do you think has the higher probability? B, the complex, or A, the simple?
Occam's razor (when applied to probability) just says that the answer with the least "moving parts" is "less likely to be unlikely". I don't see what you're getting at.
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He's getting at religion, and it's just not working :)
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Excuse me but i never caught the implication that the Shivans made the nebula. The only evidence for that is that they are capable of makings stars go BOOM!. But other than that, all you've are assumtions.
The implication was made by Bosch, to some extent. He said the nebula may be the result of a supernova caused eight thousand years ago. This timeframe is strikingly close to the fall of the Ancients, and the Capella supernova ties it all together.
Taking anything Bosch says as fact, apart from his explanations of the NTF and his own actions, isn't exactly a firm basis for conclusions. We're listening to his personal logs, so that's just him musing about what "could be". I'd contend that quite a few of his conclusions are incorrect, and thus the entire basis for his alliance with the Shivans was founded on flawed premises, but that's me. Regardless, he's not a source for firm canon background info (apart from it being canon that he said it).
As for Occam's Razor not applying to fiction, I didn't say it's the basis for fictional design, as simple explanations aren't always good reading. No, here it applies because there obviously wasn't any conflict in Volition's view of those missions and their setting or they wouldn't have put 2 additional Knossos devices in, now would they? Thus logic dictates that the perceived paradox created by their existence is a result of us leaping to mistaken conclusions, and that positing silly "self-defense subspace systems!!!" to compensate for the initial mistaken conclusion is just making it worse (and stupid). So once again: If the only way you can reconcile your theories with established canon material is to make them convoluted and downright ridiculous, the problem is with your theories, not the canon source.
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I love when people misread Occam's Razor...
Occam's Razor is designed to separate explanations that come to the same result, i.e. Which is more correct, that I bought my bed from a furnature store? Or that it was put in my room by CIA agents, who falsified my memory to make me think that I bought the bed?
Occam's Razor would dictate that the most simple of these explanations, which each come to the same conclusion (There is a bed in my room and I remember buying it,) is the correct one.
Occam's Razor, however, does not rule out theories which come to alternate conclusions.
"But uncertainty and the non-existence of the ether cannot be deduced from Occam's Razor alone. It can separate two theories that make the same predictions, but does not rule out other theories that might make a different prediction. Empirical evidence is also required and Occam himself argued for empiricism, not against it."
"To begin with, we used Occam's razor to separate theories that would predict the same result for all experiments. Now we are trying to choose between theories that make different predictions. This is not what Occam intended."
From the Physics FAQ at Adelaide University.
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I love when people misread Occam's Razor...
Occam's Razor is designed to separate explanations that come to the same result, i.e. Which is more correct, that I bought my bed from a furnature store? Or that it was put in my room by CIA agents, who falsified my memory to make me think that I bought the bed?
Occam's Razor would dictate that the most simple of these explanations, which each come to the same conclusion (There is a bed in my room and I remember buying it,) is the correct one.
Occam's Razor, however, does not rule out theories which come to alternate conclusions.
"But uncertainty and the non-existence of the ether cannot be deduced from Occam's Razor alone. It can separate two theories that make the same predictions, but does not rule out other theories that might make a different prediction. Empirical evidence is also required and Occam himself argued for empiricism, not against it."
"To begin with, we used Occam's razor to separate theories that would predict the same result for all experiments. Now we are trying to choose between theories that make different predictions. This is not what Occam intended."
From the Physics FAQ at Adelaide University.
Nothing in this contradicts my position or use of Occam's Razor in any way, so I'm totally vindicated. For those not quite following along, here's a very simple breakdown:
1. There is a Knossos portal in the nebula.
2. The nebula is a remnant of a supernova.
3. Supernovas blow stuff up.
4. The Knossos is not blown up.
So either
A) The Knossos was built afterwards (no thorny paradoxs here!),
B)The supernova that generated the nebula wasn't that particular system (possible, but unlikely because we only think it GOT blown up by Shivans because the portal led there, and if it didn't get blown up by Shivans then there's no reason to disregard A).
or
C) The Knossos WAS in the system when it went supernova, and survived via a nonsensical ability to enter subspace itself (despite it being the door enabling subspace travel in the first place), via some unknown defense system for which we have no evidence whatsoever, and indeed have evidence supporting it's nonexistence (we blew one up while it sat there happily spinning away).
To clarify on point B some more: I don't know the specifics of nebular dissipation and stellar drift, but it seems to me that the only reason people have this notion of a paradox is the idea that Shivans triggered the nebula's creation via an induced supernova. This premise is supported by the Knossos "leading to the region of space where the Shivans were first encountered", but then explaining how anything in the system that's obviously not of Shivan manufacture survived becomes a paradox. Explaining it away by saying it wasn't that star in particular that was destroyed would solve the problem, but ignores why we had the problem in the first place: People think the Shivans blew up that system because it's the "region" where they were first encountered. If it didn't get destroyed then there's really no reason to do mental gymnastics over it.
Thus leading me right back to where we started: Occam's Razor. Huzzah for logic!
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Alright. Take two coins. Flip them. You have two predictions as to what's more likely to happen:
A) At least one coin will be heads
B) Both coins will be heads
Now which do you think has the higher probability? B, the complex, or A, the simple?
Occam's razor (when applied to probability) just says that the answer with the least "moving parts" is "less likely to be unlikely". I don't see what you're getting at.
Just that a lot of things in life in reality aren't simple, so a "simple explanation being the right one" is simply flawed. There's absolutely NO way to tell.
And no BlackDove..it has nothing to do with religion.
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Of course it does. Maybe you weren't aware of that fact when you wrote what you did, but the underlying problem for accepting Occam's Razor lies there.
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What? You're a psychiatrists now? Or a telephat?
This amuses me greatly. Please continue Dr. BlackDove. I love good comedy and this looks promising.
*picks up popcorn*
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You're the entertainment here man.
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Agreed, I always look forward to reading your posts.
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You're the entertainment here man.
While you're uneducated guesses are amusing they are also completely off-topic (and wrong).
So let's get back on topic.
We know that the ancients had a huge empire and that Altair was part of it - but where was their homeworld. From where did they start to expand? Maby we're looking it it from the wrong direction and the ancients actually came from the area beyond the nebula..
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you're uneducated guesses
Hee! The irony. Believe me, sonny, we're all making uneducated guesses here -- there's such a terrible paucity of information.
I think it's relatively unlikely the Ancients came from beyond the nebula. The ruins the Vasudans discover in FS1 were clearly from very near the end of the Ancient's existence - they contain a record of a way to attack the Sathanas, but there was never a chance to implement it - and they were also quite near Earth on the galactic scale.
Quite probably the Ancient homeworld was in that neighborhood.
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Not only that, if the Ancients came from the other direction, how the hell did they build knossos devices on the other side of of an unstable node??? :wtf:
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Not only that, if the Ancients came from the other direction, how the hell did they build knossos devices on the other side of of an unstable node??? :wtf:
:lol:
Great point.
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Hee! The irony. Believe me, sonny, we're all making uneducated guesses here -- there's such a terrible paucity of information.
I think it's relatively unlikely the Ancients came from beyond the nebula. The ruins the Vasudans discover in FS1 were clearly from very near the end of the Ancient's existence - they contain a record of a way to attack the Sathanas, but there was never a chance to implement it - and they were also quite near Earth on the galactic scale.
Quite probably the Ancient homeworld was in that neighborhood.
Or if not their homeworld, at least some other important planet still under Ancient control. But you misspelled 'Lucifer'.
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Not only that, if the Ancients came from the other direction, how the hell did they build knossos devices on the other side of of an unstable node??? :wtf:
The node were stable back then *GASPS* and when they collapsed/started to fluctuate they ancients build Knossoses to re-eastablish contact/stabilise nodes?
The ruins the Vasudans discover in FS1 were clearly from very near the end of the Ancient's existence - they contain a record of a way to attack the Sathanas, but there was never a chance to implement it - and they were also quite near Earth on the galactic scale.
Quite probably the Ancient homeworld was in that neighborhood.
There's no way to tell the shape or scope of their empire. That planet probably was one of their last refuges, but that doesn't mean it was near their homeworld.
If the ancients empire really was that big, then it's safe to assume they had many colonies, and I doubt the shivans would sistematicly wipe out every single one and leave the homeworld for last. After all, they went straight for the homeworlds in FS1.
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Not only that, if the Ancients came from the other direction, how the hell did they build knossos devices on the other side of of an unstable node??? :wtf:
The node were stable back then *GASPS* and when they collapsed/started to fluctuate they ancients build Knossoses to re-eastablish contact/stabilise nodes?
That strikes me as needlessly convoluted and counterintuitive, as you could then apply that logic for the other 2 Knossos that we know about. It's WAY more likely they were extending their empire by stabilizing nodes rather then fixing broken doors after they were already past the threshold.
Plus now I get to say Occam's Razor again, since I know it annoys you. Yay!
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When the rookies are making more sense than you, you know you've got some issues.
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/me facepalms
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Enough...