Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: eliex on December 23, 2007, 07:47:30 pm
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Not exactly sure how to address this, because I have rather shaky information to begin off my bit.
Anyway, ignoring that, in Derelict it mentions that the GTVA are rather scared of opening the jump node to Capella again because of the
Shivan threat that lies behind - not the fighters but the ol' 80 Sathanai ( but quite a lot of Sathanai were destroyed in the supernova!)
Okay. we are now talking about several decades after the Capella incident, I'm not sure on how long it takes for the system to recover after their star has gone supernova, but do you think that the GTVA would want to repopulate the system, not to mention that there are no planets around or asteroids?
DA-DUM: Will the Shivans return and when the GTVA reaches Capella the system is Mordor in Lord of the Rings . . . :p
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Assuming Cappellas sun BOOMed up, I see no possibility of human life in that wasteland.
And the planets are molten away anyway.
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Unless GTVA ascends to a new level of stupidity, the node won't be opened by the Terrans.
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Well, there is literally nothing there anymore. I had always speculated that the nebula past the first Knossos was the remnant of a previous use of the Shivan Solar System Buster TM. There are no planets or resources in there, so why go back in? Plus, there's always the threat of impending doom to keep you away, and if that doesn't get you, the fact that there are no more open jump nodes will!
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Unless GTVA ascends to a new level of stupidity, the node won't be opened by the Terrans.
So given Command's normal level of genius you figure what? About 10 years or so for them to reach that level of idiocy?
"Command are you sure we should be opening this node?"
"Sure, we'll just take a quick peek and then leave..."
"OK..."
***Node Opens***
"OH MY GOD!!! COMMAND DID YOU KNOW THERE WERE JUGGERNAUTS IN CAPELLA!?"
"Oh yeah...did we forget to mention that?"
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The only viable way the GTVA should even think about doing it would be if they developed the technology to control the Knossos. Basically if they could start it up and shut it down at will.
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What kind of a retard... No, worse than retard, would open a door, behind which is an army of evil killing machines that are hellbent on killing everyone? Command? No. Not even HE is that numb in the head.
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But sure are they numb enough to let in 80 Juggies which are equivalent to a Octillion of evil killing machine armys hellbent on killing everyone.
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If they could control the Knossos would they want to send a scouting party to the system to see what happened to the other jump node(s)? It's possible the Shivan's were trying to collapse the nodes as well.
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In essence, what reason is there to say that the Shivans would have left the nebula? Freaky as it sounds that anyone would
actually like to live in a nebula . . .
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Maby becouse it's SUPER-HOT and would melt your ships in an instant? :lol:
After a few hundered or thousand years, when it expands and cools off, then maby. But there's nothing there except nebula gases.
All those shivans ships have to come from somewhere so I doubt they don't have a factory somewhere...
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Ppl i think you foget that Capella went nova and that NOTHING is left there! Shivan ships can not survive a supernova no matter how fat they look.
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Hmm. I guess when already a Deimos and Moloch can survive the first blast, a 1'000'000 HP Sathanas may survive the nova from some distance.
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What if they didn't leave but just lurked in hyperspace? After the blast they could reemerge on the edge of the nebula. Fresh nebula gases = Shivan smorgasboard?
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Hmm. I guess when already a Deimos and Moloch can survive the first blast, a 1'000'000 HP Sathanas may survive the nova from some distance.
Both ships were vaporized. PLANETS can't survive a supernova and they are a LOT bigger than a Sath. And I bet they got a lot more HP's to boot :lol:
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What if they didn't leave but just lurked in hyperspace? After the blast they could reemerge on the edge of the nebula. Fresh nebula gases = Shivan smorgasboard?
What was left would be extremely hot for some time.
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It'd be just like Gamma Draconis wouldn't it? Nothing there but cold empty space . . .
Very cold too, because there's no SUN!!
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It'd be just like Gamma Draconis wouldn't it? Nothing there but cold empty space . . .
Very cold too, because there's no SUN!!
No, there'd be a nebula from the Supernova. It would be extremely hot because there's just been a Supernova.
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Wouldn't it depend on what type of star? Did it totally vaporize and turn into a nebula, expand and collapse (kind of like the sun will some day), or even collapse in on itself to form a black hole?
On the other hand could the Shivans want that superheated gas for some reason. Maybe that's why there's nothing in Gamma Draconis they mined it all.
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No, there'd be a nebula from the Supernova. It would be extremely hot because there's just been a Supernova.
Oh yeah . . . nebulas over time becomes stars right?
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Both the deimos and the maloch were vaporized and from the cutscene we can clearely see that the planets get blasted to pieces also! So that means Sathanai surviving supernova equal 0% chances. The 2 corvettes survived the first shockwave which from what we can see is not that hot but it is increadibly powerfull from a kinetic POV after that come the heat blast.
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Still doesn't answer the question of weather ships could survive in hyperspace during the blast. If they could survive in hyperspace then they could get far enough away from the blast. Then they return to normal space and begin gas mining operations almost immediately.
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What means "hyperspace"?
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This is all debatable since the was no jump point near the Capella star for the shivans to go through. Also we see multiple Sathani jumping out at great distances from one another that leads me to believe that either the shivans used the mother of all subspace nodes and the GTVA was so dumb they could not discover it whch is too incredible even for command.
Or the shivans used the exploding star to create the mother of all jumpnodes. such a huge and powerfull jumpnode either leads from one part of the galaxy to the other or from one galaxy to another both of them equali plausible. But a return trip via the same route is imposible since there shouldnt be any star left there or node of equal size as to the one they created. So it was a one way trip.
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Or the shivans used the exploding star to create the mother of all jumpnodes. such a huge and powerfull jumpnode either leads from one part of the galaxy to the other or from one galaxy to another both of them equali plausible. But a return trip via the same route is imposible since there shouldnt be any star left there or node of equal size as to the one they created. So it was a one way trip.
Snail supports this theory. :yes:
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What about the hyperspace / subspace whatever you want to call it that is used for in-system jumps where you don't need a jump node?
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Nope that usualy takes a couple of seconds the Sathani would of been out of subspace just in time for the Blast wave to hot them asuming they went as far as they could meaning the very outer edge of the sistem. In which case they were fried .
Ppl seem to underestimate the destructive power of a supernova. Hell the GTVA could build 1 billion helioses bombs detonate them all at once and they still wouldnt amount to the full destructive power of a supernova.
Ppl. A supernova destroyes planets and everithing ina solar sistem and way beyond they are huge.
The sathani jumped out far far away from capella that is the only plausible theory. If they were stupid enougfh to try and escape the blast by jumping to the outer edge of the sistem then they are gone in which case the GTVA would have no more to fear from the Sathani armada.
However the shivans sure as hell dont care about theyr fighters and bommbers and cap ships when it comes to taking the enemy out but they are not stupid enough to blow op such a massive fleet for no good reason. They are not GTVA command.
Allright enough with the command jokes.
No even for the shivans the loss of over 80 Sathanas would be major if not huge military loss. They may be bad they may have multiple legs but they are not infinite they just appear that way.
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Geez, it's an exploding star! :D
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No even for the shivans the loss of over 80 Sathanas would be major if not huge military loss. They may be bad they may have multiple legs but they are not infinite they just appear that way.
No proof of that. In fact, there is evidence to the contrary.
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Still doesn't answer the question of weather ships could survive in hyperspace during the blast. If they could survive in hyperspace then they could get far enough away from the blast. Then they return to normal space and begin gas mining operations almost immediately.
I've always thought that a possibility. Capella has 3 other stars in the system, two of which are over a LY away. Since they are still within the system technically they might be within the range of an intrasystem jump. They could wait a year and then jump back to the nebula without meeting the shockwave. Or they could simply ride it out there.
Or they could have gone back out through Gamma Draconis.
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WTF? In-game Capella has one sun. I've never seen other suns in the missions nor the ani's.
RL Capella means zilch.
IIRC; inter-systems jumps are limited within the boundires of a system, and a supernove blast is far greater than that. Also the time in-subspace for those jumps is mesured in seconds. Not Years. Also, there is nothing in FS canon that even suggests ships can stay in subspace as long as they want.
If they could, ships that are trying to hide behind enemy lines would simply wait in subspace.
It doesn't matter where in the system the Saths were to jump, even if they in some miracolous way escape the blast they'll get cooked alive.
Also, I somehow doubt shivans made a uber-jump-node, for something that huge would get detected. The GTVA has science cruisers and other ships in the systems. They would detect a uber-jumpnode.
MY theory is that something simply went wrong. Just look how many ships shivans lost in Capella (and it's a good chance they lost them ALL). If they were planing to blow it up, why didn't they pull out other ships (like the Moloch and the fighters). The Moloch was apparently caught by surprise, and so were the saths.
I guess they were probably testing a new weapon, but it went off prematurely. Controling a suns explosion precisely seems a too big of a challenge even for htem.
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Also, I somehow doubt shivans made a uber-jump-node, for something that huge would get detected. The GTVA has science cruisers and other ships in the systems. They would detect a uber-jumpnode.
It was detected.
A Subspace Anomaly
Over 80 Shivan Juggernauts are now in position around the Capella sun. Science vessels monitoring their activity have detected an anomalous subspace field rippling from the Juggernaut fleet. Though we can barely detect the field with our instruments, its intensity has been increasing slowly over the past seventy-two hours. We have known since the Great War that the Shivans possess advanced subspace technologies, but this field goes beyond our wildest speculations. The Shivans may be powering up a new kind of weapon, the likes of which we have never before encountered.
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Also the time in-subspace for those jumps is mesured in seconds. Not Years. Also, there is nothing in FS canon that even suggests ships can stay in subspace as long as they want.
Yes but the blast wave would take a year to travel a LY since it travels at the speed of light. :p
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It was detected.
No. Unusual subspace activity was detected, but not a node. The GTVA knows how to spot a node, especially a massive one.
Yes but the blast wave would take a year to travel a LY since it travels at the speed of light.
So? Where would they go?
Assuming they jump to the edges and then later jump back towards the center of the system to "skip" the blastwave as it's coming towards them, the system is now super-hot..it's a deathtrap. They got nowhere to go (unless they somehow managed to get to the GD node, assuming it's still there)
Still, the supernova doesn't look like a planned action when you look at the final cutscene. The shivies lost too much ships themselves.
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No. Unusual subspace activity was detected, but not a node. The GTVA knows how to spot a node, especially a massive one.
Who says it doesn't take months of careful subspace experiments to detect a new node? It certainly took the GTVA ages to find the Knossos in the nebula and whatever the Shivans were doing to Capella might have resulted in a node that had a different signature from a standard node. What makes you think massive nodes and standard nodes look the same on whatever the GTVA use for node detection? What makes you so certain that the subspace field that the Shivans created wasn't jamming GTVA node detection equipment anyway?
Finally Petrach in effect says it might be a massive node. He could be wrong but it's a pretty good certainty that he knew more about jump nodes than you or I do.
Yes but the blast wave would take a year to travel a LY since it travels at the speed of light.
So? Where would they go?
Assuming they jump to the edges and then later jump back towards the center of the system to "skip" the blastwave as it's coming towards them, the system is now super-hot..it's a deathtrap. They got nowhere to go (unless they somehow managed to get to the GD node, assuming it's still there)
The blast was the old Praxis wave style blast that is so loved in sci-fi. Above and below the plane of the system would be fairly clear of nebula gas.
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Unless Capella had an extremely small star, the blast wave was travelling at way higher than the speed of light.
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I think that's definitely artistic licence and nothing more.
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It'd be just like Gamma Draconis wouldn't it? Nothing there but cold empty space . . .
Very cold too, because there's no SUN!!
The nebula system has a sun! So scratch the supernova idea!
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Who says it doesn't take months of careful subspace experiments to detect a new node? It certainly took the GTVA ages to find the Knossos in the nebula and whatever the Shivans were doing to Capella might have resulted in a node that had a different signature from a standard node. What makes you think massive nodes and standard nodes look the same on whatever the GTVA use for node detection? What makes you so certain that the subspace field that the Shivans created wasn't jamming GTVA node detection equipment anyway?
The Knossos in the nebula was IN THE NEBULA. Ya know, limiting sensors, almost blind and all that jazz?
It's possible that the super-node is somewhat different from the normal one, but if it uses the same underlaying travel principle it should be detectable in the same way.
And why would the shivans be jamming anything. the GTVA clearly detected the subspace field and appranetly the shivans really weren't bothered with the forward observer units that observed the process.. which likely means that hey didn't really care for secrecy.
Occam Razor, which many here like so much, points towards a simpler solution.
The blast was the old Praxis wave style blast that is so loved in sci-fi. Above and below the plane of the system would be fairly clear of nebula gas.
That's like saying that the new planar shockwave(and I hate it) doesn't damage you if the "ring" passes below or over you and doesn't hit you directly :lol:
My bet is they ran for the GD node. It's not like they got anything else to do in Capella anyway.
The nebula system has a sun! So scratch the supernova idea!
Maby the system had 2 suns and only one went kabloie. Interesting tough...what effect would a supernova have in a binary or trinary system?
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And why would the shivans be jamming anything. the GTVA clearly detected the subspace field and appranetly the shivans really weren't bothered with the forward observer units that observed the process.. which likely means that hey didn't really care for secrecy.
I didn't say the Shivans were jamming it deliberately. I was saying that whatever the Shivans were doing to create the node could jam any signals that a node would cause. If the creation of a node causes a massive subspace disturbance how the **** are you going to detect the small subspace disturbance that a node causes.
And I notice that you didn't address my main point. How do you know how long it takes to detect a node. It could take months of work. The fact that at the start of the war the systems beyond Laramis were unexplored suggests that too.
Occam Razor, which many here like so much, points towards a simpler solution.
All you've proved with that sentence is that you don't understand what Occam's Razor is or how to use it. It can not be used like you just tried to use it. It only works when both theories explain the same data. These do not since they both rest on fundamental assumption neither of which have supporting data.
So I suggest you go and re-read what Occam's Razor is before you attempt to use it on me.
That's like saying that the new planar shockwave(and I hate it) doesn't damage you if the "ring" passes below or over you and doesn't hit you directly :lol:
No. It's like saying that Supernovae don't have to be spherical explosions. Whatever caused the Capellan supernova doesn't have to have created one. Parking 1 AU in polar orbit around what used to be Capella might be perfectly safe.
And that's before we get to the fact that I'm still not convinced that the nebula gas would be anywhere near as hot as you claim it would be. The gas in a real nebula is much more spread out than in an FS2 nebula and cools down a lot quicker.
My bet is they ran for the GD node. It's not like they got anything else to do in Capella anyway.
I tend to think that's what they did if they were making a new nebula for resources. IF they were making a new node I doubt that's what they did at all.
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All you've proved with that sentence is that you don't understand what Occam's Razor is or how to use it. It can not be used like you just tried to use it. It only works when both theories explain the same data. These do not since they both rest on fundamental assumption neither of which have supporting data.
So I suggest you go and re-read what Occam's Razor is before you attempt to use it on me.
DATA:
Shivan use a massive subspace field on Capella sun.
Sun goes supernova
Shivans loose a lot of ships in the process, including at least several Saths who were doing something to the sun.
Thrown conclusions:
1a. Shivans did something wrong, sun went nova before they planned
1b. Shivans did everything as planned (why so many lost ships then when there was no need?)
2a. Shivans opened a new supernode that somehow remained undetected that flung them somewhere far away (how would they select the destination? If a new node formes it will connect to some other system/sun in some strange relations with distance and gravity. Furthemore, why risk loosing so many other ships needlesly?)
2b. Shivans were powering a weapon that detonated prematurely
I rest my case.
And I notice that you didn't address my main point. How do you know how long it takes to detect a node. It could take months of work. The fact that at the start of the war the systems beyond Laramis were unexplored suggests that too.
It doesn't suggest anything. And a supernode should be far easier to find than a normal one.
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Maybe the Shivans withdrew from the system to do something more important than destroying the GTVA. Something that was so urgent that the lost of several Sathanas class ships was acceptable. Perhaps the Shivan homeworld was underattacked and the only way they could reach it was to create a massive subspace node by collapsing the Capella star. I would assume that the Shivans knew that several of the Sathanas would be sacrificed in order to create enough energy to start the super nova. It was a lost that the Shivans had anticipated.
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Sacrificing 30 or 40 Sathanas Juggernauts means **** all if the Shivans have 10,000 of them.
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Sacrificing 30 or 40 Sathanas Juggernauts means **** all if the Shivans have 10,000 of them.
Why sacrifice ANY ship if you don't have to? :wtf:
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Who says they didn't have to?
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Why does it have to be a supernode? Maybe the destruction of the star leaves behind a hole in subspace that is the standard jump nodes we know.
Also could the GTVA detect a node? Maybe. Even if they could have they ever seen what the formation of a node looks like? With no reference point to go by the best thing they could do is guess.
Just reading about supernova. Looks like it only takes a matter of weeks or months for the gas left in the system to dissipate. What isn't pushed out of the system is gathered back up by the gravity of the core of the collapsing star. Also the type of supernova is dependent on the type of star going nova. Other then there was a shockwave and a second wave of matter emitted from the star. After that we don't know what was left IN the system. Again since this was a Shivan made event and not natural it make it even more open to speculation on what could or could not be left.
So the thing is we just don't know what would be there. After a few years would there be enough scientific curiosity to try and find out? Again assuming we figure out how to control the Knossos they just might.
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Just reading about supernova. Looks like it only takes a matter of weeks or months for the gas left in the system to dissipate. What isn't pushed out of the system is gathered back up by the gravity of the core of the collapsing star.
I suspected that might be the case but I couldn't find anything that said anything in either direction. Got a link?
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No sorry, but the whole case really depends on what exactly shivans are as a species.
Their history . . . which puts into their motives
Their behaviour ( well apart from killing anything that they don't like ;) )
And what does it mean they are native to subspace?
If people could live in subspace, why couldn't the GTVA?
Is it possible to set up an Arcadia installation inside it? Or will it be swept away in case a jump node collapses? :confused:
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Who says they didn't have to?
They lost cruisers, corvettes, even destroyers to the supernova.
It's possible some of the Saths had to stay behind for some reason or another (ran out of juice, overloaded reactors or something), but if the shivies knew and planned to blow up the sun, they could have evacuated OTHER ships..which they didn't.
So the question WHY has to be asked..
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It's possible some of the Saths had to stay behind for some reason or another (ran out of juice, overloaded reactors or something), but if the shivies knew and planned to blow up the sun, they could have evacuated OTHER ships..which they didn't.
Actually, they did. < very minimal though >
The two Shivan cruisers at the last mission were trying to make a run for the node to *safety*, if you call it that because all the other GTVA forces are all on the other side.
And I think that the cutscene showed maybe 12 or 13 Sathanai getting blown up just to console the player . . . make them feel good :nod:
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These don't show how fast it cool but it does show how fast the light dies down. They also tell about the various types for supernovas.
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/astro/snovcn.html
http://www.nasa.gov/worldbook/supernova_worldbook.html
If the light and radiation dissipate that fast then shouldn't the heat also?
One other possibility on the Shivan ships that were destroyed. Who says all the Stahs were manned? They could have know they were going to loose there ships and put them on autopilot or only left behind a skeleton crew.
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The Capella nova was not like any other Supernova NASA could know about.
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Unless NASA know anything about n-dimensional disturbances prematurely causing supernovae.
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The Capella nova was not like any other Supernova NASA could know about.
That merely means that Trashman's assumptions about the speed they cool down are even more likely to be wrong then, doesn't it? :D
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Well ppl keep talking about the shivans wasting theyr ships as if the shivans actualy cared about theyr ships and pilots.
HELLO we are talking about THE SHIVANS . Loosing cap ships doesnt seem to bother them all that much.
Also i believe that the GTVA did in fact detect the subspace field created which COULD of been a massive subspace node the only problems i see here are this:
a) Did the GTVA actualy realize that a supernode was forming ?
b) do the energy patterns of a supernode resemble anything withing the GTVA database?
c)Who sais that GTVA command did not just bullsh** the player about what the shivans were actualy dooing and classified everithing level omega or something ?
Answers:
a) I believe that in the begining the GTVA had no idea what the shivans were dooing but they realized it later on or at least suspected as much.
b)Since GTVA command lets it big mouth say the most stupid things i do remember them stating that the energy patterns were unlike anything they have seen or something like that. This leads me to conclude that a supernode is very diferent in terms of energy patterns structure etc form a normal node.
c) I believe that GTVA command once it realized what the shivans were atempting (to create a supernode) clasified this data lvl omega so as not to alar the general population back home. Because such an event would trigger mass panic since it would mean the shivans could go anywhere they like whenever they like or at least that is the theory. I also believe that GTVA command had at least suspected that the Capella star would go nova but they lioed to everyone so as not to cause panic withing the fleeing transport etc. But this im not so sure about.
That beeing said i also have to knock off one of my previous statements about the shivans beeing able to go anywhere anytime. They could of used any sistem they wanted from beyond the portal and from within the GTVA space but they targeted capella for a reason.
I believe that this was their way of actualy directing the supernode to where they actuali wanted to go. This means that shivans while in theory are able to travel anywhere anytime they are restricted by the use of massive resources and also massive losses to their own fleet numbers . And by the fact that some destinations they simpli can not reach via direct supernode. Why?
Because they simpli can not expect to find a star that is suited for they destination of travel. Also this is not something that the shivans would actualy use all the time beacause of the massive damage to subspace itself and the destruction of entire solarsistems. They may be genocidal alliens but they do actualy care about solar sistems as a whole.
I believe this was some sort of a desperate act on the part of the shivans to reach somewhere fast in a hurry.
Also whyle the shivans had all the cards they did not know this. So i believe this is one of the reasons they kept theyr forces in the Capella sistem all this time to distract a possible counterattack by the GTVA via Collie fleet.
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Another thing Trashman is forgetting. Even if the GTVA did detect a massive subspace node why the hell would they tell the player given how secretive they are?
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umm thats what i said above did i not?
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Pretty much. :)
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Actually, they did. < very minimal though >
The two Shivan cruisers at the last mission were trying to make a run for the node to *safety*, if you call it that because all the other GTVA forces are all on the other side.
And I think that the cutscene showed maybe 12 or 13 Sathanai getting blown up just to console the player . . . make them feel good :nod:
IIRC, those cruisers have been attacking the convoy and they weren't evacuating, they were making a run deeper into GTVA space. What about all the other ships?
We see other shivan ship fighting all over the system. Why didn't they just pack their bags?
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The Capella nova was not like any other Supernova NASA could know about.
That merely means that Trashman's assumptions about the speed they cool down are even more likely to be wrong then, doesn't it? :D
Bollocks. It doesn't matter how you blow up 10 tons of explosives, it will always make the same bang, wether you use a timed detonator, throw a granade on it or shoot at it with a pistol.
The Shivans induced the supernova but the explosion is an explosion. Fusion is fusion, fission is fission.
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so umm what do you mean??
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so umm what do you mean??
He means a star dies in the same way, whether you let it live out its life, warp out its insides elsewhere, cut it in half, throw two at each other, etc.
Bollocks. It doesn't matter how you blow up 10 tons of explosives, it will always make the same bang, wether you use a timed detonator, throw a granade on it or shoot at it with a pistol.
The Shivans induced the supernova but the explosion is an explosion. Fusion is fusion, fission is fission.
A star can do something different depending on the circumstances. It can become a white dwarf or explode in a supernova. That's still 10 tons of explosives, but it explodes differently, doesn't it? :rolleyes:
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The circumstances being mass...then it's not 10 tons of explosives anymore, is it? :lol:
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The circumstances being mass...then it's not 10 tons of explosives anymore, is it? :lol:
Bah.
Karajorma, heeeeeeeeeellp!!!
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Yep big K help out a lil' will you!
TMAN you are wrong there is a big difference to how a sun goes away. Hell depending on its mass and stuff it can become a balck hole even or something like that!
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I think a star would definitely explode differently if you warped out its insides, fired a resonance torpedo into it, or threw a big planet into it. :ha:
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Amm agreed its like sayng that smashing a window using a brick a car and a grenade is the same thing ! Well the window gets broken but depending on what you use there is gooing to be a big difference in the suroundings
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Yep big K help out a lil' will you!
TMAN you are wrong there is a big difference to how a sun goes away. Hell depending on its mass and stuff it can become a balck hole even or something like that!
Sun that has a mass of 1.0 of the Sun and a sun that has a mass of 10.0, or 13.0 of 100.00 of the sun won't end up the same way. The mass affects the gravity and ultimatively it's fate.
BUT...all suns of the same mass will end up the same.
At the end of the day it doesn't matter HOW you trigger a certain physical chain reacton - one triggered it adheres to the laws of physics and will play out as it's meant to play out.
Your window analogy is completely flawed in this respect.
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FUBAR posted a link saying that the nebula gas from a supernova likely cools down in a few weeks.
That makes you wrong then. Your only hope of the Shivans not being able to go back was that it would stay hot. But since you're claiming an explosion is an explosion and the Capella supernova is just like every other supernova I guess that means the Shivans would be fine to go back a couple of weeks/months later.
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FUBAR posted a link saying that the nebula gas from a supernova likely cools down in a few weeks.
That makes you wrong then. Your only hope of the Shivans not being able to go back was that it would stay hot. But since you're claiming an explosion is an explosion and the Capella supernova is just like every other supernova I guess that means the Shivans would be fine to go back a couple of weeks/months later.
It's not a direct relation, so exactly how fast it cool down is anyones guess.
Assuming a few weeks - that's a lot of time. The shivans can't sty in Capella during that time.
Any shivans IN Capella would get fried, one way or another.
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Says you. I've already explained several ways they could. :rolleyes:
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Oh yeah..tha planar explosion rubbish...What next? You'll try to convince me the moon is made of cheese?
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Actually I was referring to the Shivans simply jumping light-weeks away from Capella and then back again.
Oh and BTW non-spherical supernovae isn't as unbelievable as you may think. But of course you'd know that since you'd have checked NASA's website first, right?
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If you do some searching you will find that a star with the same mass can explode in different ways. It might even be in those links I posted. Also a star that is not ready to go nova would not explode in the same way because it is not made up of the same elements. The abundance of heavy elements and lack of fuel that normally cause the collapse of the star and resulting nova would be totally out of norm. Wonder if you could really even call it a supernova unless the star was close to the end of it's life anyway.
Oh and there are photos out there of non symmetrical supernova where most of the matter is expelled to one side of the star.
Another thought on the escape theory. Since the star collapses under it's own gravity before it explodes could that increase of gravity at the central point right before the explosion set up a worm hole?
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Actually I was referring to the Shivans simply jumping light-weeks away from Capella and then back again.
You mean jump inot GD, wait a few week and then jump back in?
Since IIRC, jumping outside of the boundries of a star system is impossible outside of a node. And the edges of a star systems are hardly light-weeks away, more like light-hours or light-days tops, meaning the shivies would still get fried.
Oh and BTW non-spherical supernovae isn't as unbelievable as you may think. But of course you'd know that since you'd have checked NASA's website first, right?
I know it's possible for explosions to direct the major part of their destructive power in one direction.. However, it's never all of it. and even a fraction of a supernovas destructive power would be enough to fry any ship.
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I don't recall anything about not being able to jump outside a system without a node. The only thing I remember about it was it would take to long with normal jumps. I'll have to go back and check on that.
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Who's talking about outside the system anyway? Capella H is inside the system. That's why it's called Capella H not some other name. We have no idea if Shivan in-system drives can reach that far.
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OK major point here. Even thought this is in FS2 we are arguing about it and keep wondering about all the scenarios.
Given human nature if this happened in real life how long would it be before we let that curiosity override our better judgment and take a look to see?
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I still think the Shivans used Capella to create a subspace node. They used it to go somewhere else.
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I think most of us would consider that the most probable theory but it's not written in stone. Even if it was the where is still a mystery. Shivan home system? Earth? Another universe? Suzy's back yard with all those warping Gannys? :lol:
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Petrarch also expressed the same views that they used it as a way of returning home.
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Just went back and played the beginning of FS1. It clearly states that we started exploring the galaxy before subspace was discovered. When it was we gained access to the galaxy and beyond. This indicates that not only could we travel beyond a system by normal means but by regular subspace. It also suggest travel beyond our galaxy using it. Either it's a big plot screw up or regular travel = fast, subspace = faster, nodes = ?????.
Also the very intro to FS1 suggests the Shivans were able to hang out in subspace while the poor pilot tried to make it back to base. He was in normal space with them pursuing. They jumped in only after the Terran base was in range.
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Petrach believed it at least and he no doubt had access to information we don't.
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Well, he's an ADMIRAL, after all. He's probably got up to Level Upsilon clearance, while we're stuck at Level Phi or Rho.
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Who's talking about outside the system anyway? Capella H is inside the system. That's why it's called Capella H not some other name. We have no idea if Shivan in-system drives can reach that far.
Capella H? What are you talking about? FS2 Capella has only ONE star, and shivans are tied by the same subspace laws as us humies are. They are just as dependant on nodes for travel outside of systems as we are.
As far as Petrachs speech goes..he was theorizing..using the words MABY ..implying he didn't know either. Which makes sense, since he was giving the speech just shortly after Capella blew, so I doubt he would already by privy to all the scan data from Capella - such data first has to be processed, analyzed and cleared by Command.
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Petrach knows more about subspace than you do. And he considers it possible. So when you say it's not possible you're wrong.
I don't think anything more really needs to be said than that.
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Possible? Who said it's not possible?
I said the Petrach speculates himself meaning he doesn't know what they actually did out there. Learn to read...
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Learn to read...
He can read.
Petrarch, in-universe, is an Admiral and has access to more information than you do. Ever heard that "all other information is classified level xxx" crap before? He probably doesn't run into that much.
In addition, Petrarch's speech at the end, from an out-of-universe point of view, is the epilogue to the game. What kind of an evil soul/ass hat would put lies at the end of the game?
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I said the Petrach speculates himself meaning he doesn't know what they actually did out there. Learn to read...
His guess is more likely to correct than yours.
Especially since you continually load every single assumption in your favour and then claim that it means that whatever assertion you made at the start of the discussion is the most likely correct one.
You've made a bunch of ridiculous assumptions that the GTVA could detect a node. Petrach might have a briefing in front of him stating that they did for all you know.
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You're reading too much into it.
Petrarch speech is just that - a speech. Not a tech room, scientific analysis.
He CLEARLY states that the GTVA doesn't know what the f** shivan did there, but he does speculate on the motives.
Speculations of a in-game charachters are not canon fact unless confirmed. Was Bosch correct in everything he thought about the shivies? We don't know. And he was much more secure in his beliefs than Petrarch is.
And yes, I've seen many games and movies end with "false information"..if you could even call it like that.
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However I doubt he would be speculating about something which is as unlikely as you like to claim it is.
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I agree with that. ;)
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Geez, it's an exploding star! :D
It's an imploding star.
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Imploding, and then exploding star...
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This may be completely incorrect, but
I think all the saths were going to jump to another part of the galaxy or another galaxy with a super-node. They activated a prototype technology and all of a sudden the sun went nova, they made an in-system jump to gamma-draconis and warped out as fast as possible, some of the saths tried to warp to theire destination but it didn't work and they were taken by the nova, it was a premeture star (or the star wasn't big enough, or both) and their hulls maintained together for a few seconds (but all life inside was extinguished) and would have blown up, but before that happened a great big subspace eruption blew a tremendously powerful explotion that incinirated the entire ship in less than a second. Only 20 or so of the ships survived, the super-nova was far to quick for all the ships to warp to gamma-draconis and the nova reached them.
No saths are in Capella, the nova has since receeded into a nebula, though still hot, and in years to come, they will send a force here to see what happened, and start mining the nebula gas. Command may open the portal with a knosses device and the ships that travel their will get continuous (though maybe not suvere) damage from the heat (maybe like a maxim firing continuously, or an Lred) and won't stay long.
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Like, aren't Shivans tired of dying in their billions, to a far more tactical alliance?
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Like, aren't Shivans tired of dying in their billions, to a far more tactical alliance?
I don't think the Shivans were out to get the GTVA in FS2, simply to start the supernova. If they were out to get the GTVA they could easily have sent their Sathanes into GTVA space, but not one of the Saths canonically tried to do so.
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He makes a point :nod:
The sathanas is many times more powerful then the lucifer, half a dozen could smash the GTVA so bad their fossils would face BFRs :eek:
But they simply went straight to capella's star, they didn't try to engage GTVA fleets, only a few warships to keep the GTVA at bay.
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Hmm...then that does leave their motives a mystery. Maybe ngtm1r can help.
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Maybe ngtm1r can help.
I have a theory too. :(
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A point that someone needs to make -
You've all been talking about the force and effects of the supernova on a given ship as if it's a constant. It's not. Even if the Shivans were to only jump light-hours away, the force of the explosion would be radically less than if they were right next to the sun. By that point, the surface area of the shockwave would be vastly greater, but the total amount of energy would remain unchanged, meaning a less-dense shockwave at the edge of the system.
Similarly, the gases would (AFAIK) be less dense at the outer part of the system.
If nothing else, the Shivans could jump to the edge of the system, then jump inside the shockwave, and would merely have to contend with the superheated remnants and the shockwave would miss them entirely (assuming there were no adverse effects on subspace).
So unless someone has evidence that conditions would be completely impossible to survive in at the outer edges of a system after a supernova (and remember, we're talking about ships that can easily survive a multitude of direct hits by antimatter-based weaponry), I think it's very possible that the Sathanas fleet could have jumped to the edge of the system and survived.
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So unless someone has evidence that conditions would be completely impossible to survive in at the outer edges of a system after a supernova (and remember, we're talking about ships that can easily survive a multitude of direct hits by antimatter-based weaponry), I think it's very possible that the Sathanas fleet could have jumped to the edge of the system and survived.
Then what was the purpose of the star's destruction if that's the case? You didn't think the shimmering rifts between the arms of the Sathanas vessels looked awfully like they'd just ripped a hole in the fabric of the universe and then left through it? You're saying that not only is Petrach wrong about the Shivans motives for what they did, he's also wrong about what they did? You REALLY think they blew up a star system to harvest the resulting nebula when there's a perfectly good nebula on the route they took to get there in the first place (that they were already mining!)?!!
Seriously fellows, even if it is possible, that theory is just all kinds of lame. And worse, it makes the actions of the Shivans look lame. Since the Shivans are not in fact lame, your theory cannot possibly be correct. Just because you also don't like this theory Trashman doesn't mean I'm letting your equally lame "Oopsie, there goes the neighborhood!" theory out of the well deserved drubbing I've been giving it in other related threads.
If your theory in any way humanizes the behavior or strategies of the Shivans, or diminishes their impact as a terrifyingly unstoppable force who's motivations we can't even comprehend, then your theory is wrong. Screw logic, that's all narrative impact speaking.
The Shivans are Flying Dutchmen: ghost ships that patrol the uncharted waters, the monsters at the edge of the map. They are the terrible Unknown that occasionally, forcefully, intrudes on what we consider safe and secure. They do not do so for reasons we can understand. They are, in the classical sense, monsters. They are not part of any discernable ecology. They do not consume, produce, and are not consumed in a way that directly contributes to any life outside their own. They are an arbitrary and horrible imposition on a cosmos that otherwise makes perfect sense, and that's where those goosebumps come from.
We've seen a devolution of "scary stories" over the last century. Our modern ghosts just want to be understood, our modern monsters are simply part of an ecology we don't yet understand, and once we've tucked these ghouls and demons safely inside the folds of wisdom they are no longer a threat. Consider how many horror films center around problems of understanding: once the protagonist learns why the ghost is angry, learns the monsters secret weakness, or unravels the mysteries of a particular ritual, the problem is solved. Rationalism is proposed as a weapon that can slay any dragon. These movies may startle us with a sudden bump, or gross us out with buckets of gore, but they don't really scare.
You're doing that to the Shivans.
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So unless someone has evidence that conditions would be completely impossible to survive in at the outer edges of a system after a supernova (and remember, we're talking about ships that can easily survive a multitude of direct hits by antimatter-based weaponry), I think it's very possible that the Sathanas fleet could have jumped to the edge of the system and survived.
The Moloch and Deimos seemed far enough and they got atomized. Planets got atomized.
Do people even realise just how powerful a supernova is?
And another point - a warship can survive multiple hits in-game for mostly the same reason your fighter in a hack and slash can get cleaved in half by a greatsword and only loose 20 HP. Becosue it's a game and things musn't die too fast. A player has to have time to react and to enjoy the gory death of the enemy :P
hen what was the purpose of the star's destruction if that's the case? You didn't think the shimmering rifts between the arms of the Sathanas vessels looked awfully like they'd just ripped a hole in the fabric of the universe and then left through it? You're saying that not only is Petrach wrong about the Shivans motives for what they did, he's also wrong about what they did? You REALLY think they blew up a star system to harvest the resulting nebula when there's a perfectly good nebula on the route they took to get there in the first place (that they were already mining!)?!!
Correct me if I'm wrong Marcus, but Petrarch was SPECULATING. He was using words like maby and perhaps..which means he didn't have a clue either.
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Speculating about where they might have gone and why wanted to, not speculation that they went somewhere other then a normal in system jump. That they used the star to leave seemed pretty clear, to me and Petrach. It's just the whys and wheres that fall into the realm of speculation.
And as you yourself pointed out, there's no reason for Petrach to be entirely honest even in an epilogue. He may well know quite a bit more then he lets on, ever consider that? If we're opening up the potential that the entire speech was carefully tuned propaganda, then, and this is key here, why on earth wouldn't he have explicitly mentioned it was a big mistake on the Shivan's part if Command actually thought that?! I don't know about you, but the thought of a violent xenophobic race accidentally destroying a star and a lot of their fleet is a whole lot more comforting then the thought that they did it entirely on purpose.
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To the officers and crew of the GTD Aquitaine. We have halted the shivan advance. The battle of Capella is over. We sealed off the system and our people are safe, maybe forever. No one can fathom how or why the Shivans destroyed the Capella star. Though we know our enemy better now than we did 32 years ago, their motives remain a mystery. Perhaps they are exiles like we are, nomads wandering the universe, searching for a way back home. The explosion of a star might be a bridge between this universe and their own. As the old poet once said "There are more things in Heaven and Earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
Really Marcus, pay attention.
How the hell could command know if it was a mistake or not if they have no clue what the shivans were trying to do in the first place? Unless they intercepted a shivan communication sayin "Oopsie!" or "Ow, crap!" I kinda doubt that.
Face it, we know jack s***. The GTVA knows jack s***.
The super-jump node theory isn't any more plausible than a giant shivan BBQ or mass suicide theory.
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If nothing else, the Shivans could jump to the edge of the system, then jump inside the shockwave, and would merely have to contend with the superheated remnants and the shockwave would miss them entirely (assuming there were no adverse effects on subspace).
Until some astrophysicist tells us we're both wrong I'm also going to have to agree with you there. People are acting like the nebula left behind by the destruction of Capella is going to be the same unrealistic pea souper beyond Gamma Draconis. Real nebulae aren't like that. By the time the shockwave has reached Pluto orbit the particle density further in the system is low enough that it would be called a vacuum.
So the only way the Shivan ships are going to heat up is by radiated heat. And I suspect that a ship that can survive antimatter weapons at point blank range can survive that for quite a while. As long as they avoid the shockwave they'll be fine.
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People are acting like the nebula left behind by the destruction of Capella is going to be the same unrealistic pea souper beyond Gamma Draconis. Real nebulae aren't like that.
Apparently, nebulas in FS ARE pea soups, as silly as it sounds. :lol:
RL apprently couldn't apply for a job at [V].
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Just because the one beyond GD is doesn't mean the Capella one has to be.
How the hell could command know if it was a mistake or not if they have no clue what the shivans were trying to do in the first place?
Well given that you've claimed it must be an accident and they had more data than you if you believe what you've been saying this entire thread then Command must be even more certain it was an accident.
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Just because the one beyond GD is doesn't mean the Capella one has to be.
No it doesn't. Yet it's the only CANON nebula we have to go on.
Well given that you've claimed it must be an accident and they had more data than you if you believe what you've been saying this entire thread then Command must be even more certain it was an accident.
Ahem..*might* be an accident.
Again, how could command know? Maby the shivies were trying to open a portal without blowing the sun, but they miscalculated. Maby they planed on blowing the sun but the nova fired off too early.
Either way, there's no way for command to be sure, even with lot's and lots of sensor data.
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No it doesn't. Yet it's the only CANON nebula we have to go on.
Which means **** all then. You can't draw a graph by extrapolating from one data point. The Demon was the only CANON Shivan Destroyer in FS1. I guess that means :v: can't have made the Ravana in FS2 then. :rolleyes:
Just because that nebula wasn't realistic doesn't mean other ones might not have been.
Ahem..*might* be an accident.
State another theory you consider credible then. You've rubbished every other one posted.
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The Demon was the only CANON Shivan Destroyer in FS1. I guess that means :v: can't have made the Ravana in FS2 then. :rolleyes:
Eh? :wtf: You lost me here bud...
State another theory you consider credible then. You've rubbished every other one posted.
Rubbished? What are you talking about?
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You've basically said that every other theory other than Capella's supernova being an accident is highly implausible due to the fact that the Shivans let their fleet be destroyed.
And then you've turned around and said that there is no reason Command would know that it was an accident. Despite arguing against every other theory posted on this thread, Which logically means that there must be another theory not posted on this thread which you consider Command would believe is fairly likely. I'd like to know what it is and why you think Command would think it likely enough that they wouldn't know Capella was an accident since you've spent the entire thread bashing every other idea as unlikely and even gone so far as to claim the supernode theory is as likely as jokes like the Shivan BBQ.
Cause if all the other theories are implausible then Command would know it was an accident. So what is this mystery theory?
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You're typing but not making any sense.
I said that the shivan behaviour during the nova is very suspicious and offered a good explanation for it. It's a sound theory but not the only one that explains it.
WTF does this have to do with command knowing or not knowing? Why did you bring it in anyway?
And to conclude - WTF? You post seem to having less and lass sense lately..
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Let's calm down, people. Nobody wants to get banned.
First off, the Sathanaseses could not have escaped the supernova and remained in-system. There's simply no way. The mission is titled Apocalypse. The final mission of the game. The supernova is portrayed as a massive wave of destruction, frying ships and planets, wiping the system clean of life. It's pretty clear that the developers intended the supernova to devastate everything, representing the complete obliteration of an entire star system. For the juggernauts to have remained in Capella, surviving on a technicality, is quite unlikely.
Second, there is absolutely no reason to doubt Petrarch's hunch. It's the end of the game, and it's the only canon explanation provided for the inexplicable act of ignoring enemy forces and blowing up a star. As karajorma said, why would they lie to us then, after we completed the game? Petrarch as a character may be fallible, but as the one delivering the epilogue, there's simply no way.
However, perhaps Capella was an accident. That's certainly possible. Remember that juggernauts, the very same ships that engineered the subspace wave, were also destroyed in the blast. If the juggernauts were built with the express purpose of creating massive jump nodes, why would the Shivans allow some to be destroyed every time one was made? Surely they would have anticipated that? They have the technology to create nodes from stars, but each time part of the fleet gets obliterated? I think not. The motive, clearly, was not to hurt the GTVA, because the eighty juggernauts would have wiped the floor with the entire fleet without breaking a sweat. Thus, it cannot have been a sacrificial ploy to destroy the allied fleet. They were winning. What would possibly motivate them to blow up half their fleet in a supernova? Nothing, that's what!
Now. To say that the Shivans, masters of subspace and of bizarre technology, completely screwed up their uber-jump node on their own, allowing their jump-node constructor armada to be partially obliterated, is ridiculous. The Shivans know more about what they did than we do, how could they allow such a catastrophe to occur? Absurd! It's impossible for the Shivans to have messed up so badly, right?
There is one way.
Before the juggernaut fleet came bearing down on the GTVA, there was one event that could have put their plans into disarray. One component that was missing. One, and only one reason for the supernode to fail so spectacularly, causing the Capella incident. Yes, the one Sathanas-class Shivan juggernaut that was missing from the fleet, the single node constructor that was destroyed by the GTVA! One single juggernaut arrived early, and fell victim to the guns of the Colossus! That was all it took for only partial success to be possible, for part of the fleet to escape and leave the rest to their fiery grave!
The Shivans must have known about the destruction of the first Sathanas. They lost contact with a huge, powerful ship, one of the most important in their fleet, the first one to arrive, the only one not present. How could they not miss it? If its absence was indeed the cause of the supernova, wouldn't the Shivans have known how important it was to have all ships present? It's their technology, after all. The Shivans must have been desperate! For some reason, returning home, and returning home now, was important enough to risk massive casualties! What could possibly have motivated the Shivans to attempt a supernode with insufficient ships? Could there be something...else...? All we ever got from Volition, the one explanation for the Shivans' bizarre actions, was that the Shivans were a symptom of a much greater problem...
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Sources inside Volition* tell me that Capella was actually the Shivans' equivalent to Woodstock. The unusual subspace disturbances the GTVA picked up was actually the music; what we saw in the end cutscene with the bendy arms and all was the Shivans' equivalent to waving cell phones or lighters.
Then the bassist hit the wrong note and the sun exploded.
Unfortunately, half of the fleet was already so damn high that they thought it was all part of the concert, up until the flames engulfed them. At that point they barely had enough time to yell "PARTY FOUL!!!" before being being vaporized in a fiery, agonizing, and totally uncool inferno.
As for the rest of the Shivan fleet, they were just trying to provide security for the concert, but those blasted Terrand and Vasudan jackasses kept on trying to push their way to the floor without even buying a ticket to the concert. The GTVA also blockaded the restrooms shortly after the concert started, which pissed off at least one fan and caused numerous others intense discomfort.
In the end, almost nobody made it out because they were so busy defending the stage that they didn't notice that the stage had become a raging supernova.
* Not really.
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:lol:
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Now. To say that the Shivans, masters of subspace and of bizarre technology, completely screwed up their uber-jump node on their own, allowing their jump-node constructor armada to be partially obliterated, is ridiculous. The Shivans know more about what they did than we do, how could they allow such a catastrophe to occur? Absurd! It's impossible for the Shivans to have messed up so badly, right?
Actually, considering the Shivans felt it necessary to send in a Sathanas in Their Finest Hour, it is quite possible you blew up something they needed. Parts, fuel, people who actually knew how to work the damn thing. Thus, some of the Sathanas went ahead with noobs at the controls, juryrigged gear, or less gas then they needed. Some of those made it, but some didn't. Or possibly the whole supernova was a result of the failures involved in this.
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I said that the shivan behaviour during the nova is very suspicious and offered a good explanation for it. It's a sound theory but not the only one that explains it.
So what's another sound explanation in your opinion then?
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Now. To say that the Shivans, masters of subspace and of bizarre technology, completely screwed up their uber-jump node on their own, allowing their jump-node constructor armada to be partially obliterated, is ridiculous. The Shivans know more about what they did than we do, how could they allow such a catastrophe to occur? Absurd! It's impossible for the Shivans to have messed up so badly, right?
A very sound theory of yours, yet it's this part that irks me.
Absurd? Impossible? How do you figure that?
Hasn't humanity screwed up over and over again, even on great important projects. Just count the number of rockets lost during the space race.
Shivans are mysterious but are no more perfect than humans.
Luck, chance, some stupid factor or another..who knows what might have caused a error..but it's very possible.
So what's another sound explanation in your opinion then?
There are a few in this very thread. Didn't you read?
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I read. And then I read you say that they were unlikely.
I'm asking for one you consider likely other than it being an accident.
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I read. And then I read you say that they were unlikely.
I'm asking for one you consider likely other than it being an accident.
I said that IMHO, this one or that one don't really explain everything or that there are better explanationions. I certantly didn't say that for all the theories thrown around...I even commented that some were good.
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Such as?
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Do I really need to read the thread for you? You seem to have two perfecly good eyes in that watermellon between your shoulders.
What next, should I bottle feed you too? :lol:
*sigh*
Allrighty. What can explain such shivan losses?
Either the shivans planned it or they didn't.
If the planned such loses, the question is why?
Maybe they are suicidal. Maybe it's some religious ritual. Maybe the left extra forces behind just to make super extra sure. Maybe the forces didn't want to leave.
If they didn't plan it what went wrong?
Calculation error? Missing component supplies? GTVA interference?
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If the planned such loses, the question is why?
Maybe they are suicidal. Maybe it's some religious ritual. Maybe the left extra forces behind just to make super extra sure. Maybe the forces didn't want to leave.
So given that those are according to you credible theories on what grounds do you now object to the Shivans blowing up Capella to make a node?
Cause the entire crux of your argument as far as I could see was that none of those were credible.
If I need to get you to spell things out simply it's because what you are saying now contradicts what you were saying earlier.
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There is no contradiction. You're seeing Venus reflecting off swamp gas.
WTF did I ever say shivan node-creating was not credible? :wtf:
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WTF did I ever say shivan node-creating was not credible? :wtf:
Evidently you need to look up the word credible in one of those dictionaries you are too busy to use.
The super-jump node theory isn't any more plausible than a giant shivan BBQ or mass suicide theory.
Would you like to eat your own words with Chilli or BBQ sauce now?
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........you say you've been using dictionaries..where they latin or spanish? Now I doubt they were english.
The super-jump node theory isn't any more plausible than a giant shivan BBQ or mass suicide theory.
How is that contradictory with anything?
With lack of a official explanation, any theory that explains the in-game facts is just AS plausible (more or less)
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Oh wait. You're now claiming that all theories are credible since we don't know which one :v: used? The Shivan BBQ is a credible theory according to you?
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You are grasping at straws here if you're trying using verbal expressions against me.
Do phrases like "I'm excited as a turkey for thanksgiving!", "That show has got a plot hole the size of Texas!", "He's so slow he's going backwards in time." mean anything to you? I guess deliberate puns, or overblowing something to get the point across are unheard off where you live? :rolleyes:
If you're taking every single word or phrase I say literary then we have nothing to talk about. The communication is broken at the most fundamental level.
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I'm using exactly what you said against you. I'm even not taking you literally.
You're saying that "That show has got a plot hole the size of Texas!" means that you don't think the show has any major plot holes. You're saying that "He's so slow he's going backwards in time." means he moves quickly and you're saying that "The super-jump node theory isn't any more plausible than a giant shivan BBQ or mass suicide theory." means this is a perfectly credible theory which I consider to be a reasonably likely possibility.
In other words you're talking complete and utter bollocks.
I've been saying for several posts now that you have rubbished every single theory other than your own that Capella was an accident. And look at the theory you have pointed out to me as theory you haven't rubbished. One which you've made statements about it being as plausible about theories that are a joke!
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Indeed, the communication here isn't working. :wtf:
I haven't rubbished anything. There isn't just ONE other theory I consider highly probable, there are several.
The BBQ theory is a joke. :p
Whatever you're on, stop taking it. Get some rest, sober up. :p
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So name one.
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So scroll up and read. Pfft.. and you call me lazy. :lol:
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You didn't name a credible theory though. You said
Maybe they are suicidal. Maybe it's some religious ritual. Maybe the left extra forces behind just to make super extra sure. Maybe the forces didn't want to leave.
Fine but none of that answers what the Shivans were actually doing. So it's only half a theory anyway. You've already said that they didn't successfully make a supernode. So what the **** do you think they were doing? The first one possibly explains what they were up to but you've also claimed it was rubbish. The others are incomplete.
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What are you rambling about?
I never went into exactly what they were doing.. making a supernode, blowing a sun, making a phone call home...what the hell do I know? Whatever their "plan" or "project" was it either worked or didn't.
I'm trying to come up with explanations why they lost so many ships, regardless of what they were doing.
You might say it's impossible to do that if you don't know what the plan was, but that's not entirely true.
Whatever their plan was it can always be executed efficiently or not.
We know their plan involved bombarding the sun with a subspace field and harassing the GTVA. Make your own conclusion from there on.
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What are you rambling about?
I never went into exactly what they were doing.. making a supernode, blowing a sun, making a phone call home...what the hell do I know? Whatever their "plan" or "project" was it either worked or didn't.
I'm trying to come up with explanations why they lost so many ships, regardless of what they were doing.
You might say it's impossible to do that if you don't know what the plan was, but that's not entirely true.
Whatever their plan was it can always be executed efficiently or not.
We know their plan involved bombarding the sun with a subspace field and harassing the GTVA. Make your own conclusion from there on.
Here's a helpful quote to remind us about the importance of meaning:
"We'll find you and bring you back, with surgical precision." Rincewind cringed, he knew what surgical precision meant in Ankh Morpork (to within an inch or two, then they poor hot tar just where your leg used to be).
Now Trashman, when you list a serious theory along with an obvious joke and then call them both equally plausible, what that means is you think they're both equally stupid. Whatever you think you meant, each and every time you attempt to explain it, you end up saying exactly the same thing. We can't all be Humpty Dumpty and assert that when we use words, they mean precisely what we wish them to. Reason being, that would pretty much destroy the entirety of human communication if it were carried out to the logical extreme.
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It was pretty obvious what I mean but apparently I have to try harder with you.
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How is it obvious that when you say
"The super-jump node theory isn't any more plausible than a giant shivan BBQ or mass suicide theory." you mean that the super-jump node is plausible but the giant shivan BBQ isn't? This must some weird Trashman version of English.
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IMHO, the mass suicide theory is quite plausible really.
As for the BBQ theory...could be..altough that has been thrown around like a gag around here for ages. Excuse me for trying to be a bit funny.
So maybe I didn't formulate my response perfectly..who cares. The moment you get so stuck up on semantics and any errors in what I wrote a few pages ago, instead of what I said, you are already grasping at straws.
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The moment you get so stuck up on semantics and any errors in what I wrote a few pages ago, instead of what I said, you are already grasping at straws.
But what you wrote a few pages ago is what you said. And to be frank, you could almost build a drinking game revolving around how many times you contradict yourself in any lengthy thread. I would, but I'm not much of a drinker.
Seriously though, nailing down precisely what you think at any given time in a long enough thread is like catching a greased pig: Just when you think you have it, it slips away again.
Oh wow, I just got a mental image of the Wizard of Oz shouting "Pay no attention to my prior arguments that contradict what I'm saying now!", awesome! That just made my evening.
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The moment you get so stuck up on semantics and any errors in what I wrote a few pages ago, instead of what I said, you are already grasping at straws.
But it's only what you said a few pages ago because you spent a few pages denying you said it. :p
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Typical....
Having a discussion here is like going for a stroll with a bunch of cannibals. They can't wait to get to your insides.
Just to get this straight:
There is nothing contradicting in what I said. I haven't denied anything. If you can't understand a a few simple sentences, that's your problem, not mine.
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Keep wishing it Trashman. Maybe if you wish it hard enough it will come true one day*.
*Today is not that day.
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Whatever..keep missing the point. You're good at it.
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And on that note I think this thread has progressed beyond any useful conversation. So closed.