Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: FreeSpaceFreak on January 12, 2008, 01:24:06 am
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What if the Sathanases were not warships, but merely some kind of armed transport? They could be designed to do three things:
1. Gather lots of Shivans ('civilian' Shivans?) inside their massive hulls.
2. Build a supernode and go through it (probably 'home', as Petrarch speculates).
3. Mow through any node blockades on the way.
I don't like the supernode theory, but I must admit that it's the most probable one. Petrarch speculates about it, and if I were :v:, I would love it to put some hints to the solution of the mystery into the games (after all, the Shivans still are a mystery to us) . After playing the whole -intended- trilogy, the player would get the feeling of 'Hell, why didn't I see this before?'
But wherever the Saths were going, I don't think they would be going there to wage a war. Even a Sath can't operate without support for too long. So what were they going to do? The Terrans and the Vasudans - even before they met each other - have two kinds of ships: warships and transport ships. Therefore, this is probably the same for all species in FreeSpace. Now if the Sathanases weren't going to wage a war there (= wherever they were going), they're probably not warships. What's left? Transport vessels. The Saths would be the Shivan equivalent of our GTM Hippocrates.
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Man, something about the GTVA's most powerful warship, the Colossus, losing to an armed transport doesn't sound right.
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I do like the Supernode theory. :P
So I think the Sathanes were designed to make Supernodes, so they needed a powerful reactor. However, a benefit of having this powerful reactor (or Shivan power source, etc.) is that the Sathanas' four Supernode "conductors" are able to fire big beams. Yes.
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Man, something about the GTVA's most powerful warship, the Colossus, losing to an armed transport doesn't sound right.
:wakka: True, but remember what :v: said about the Shivan warships we would encounter in [the F-word] ? Indeed - think bigger. If you take that in mind, it's not too difficult to imagine the Sathanas as 'just a transport ship' with huge reactors powering its subspace stuff and - in between - its beam weapons.
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Hmm, where the **** is the 'Welcome to HLPBB!'-Beam?!
Anyways, plural of Sathanas = Sathanai.
Transport sounds right, so they can pick up enough BBQ sausag...
Damn, my fantasy!
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Actually the plural of Sathanas is either Sathanai or Sathanes. If you're an American asshat who likes to spell colour without the u in it then you can call the Sathanases.
I think the Sathanas was still important to the Shivans despite them having so-called "planet-sized" Shivan ships.
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I wonder how much of that "think bigger" was just developer musings and planing.
IMHO, a lot of things that are planned get dropped during the making of a game.
Heck, just talking to D.Graider (Bioware) over the last few years made it apparent that they went trough a a lot of concepts, and he himself has said that until the game actually comes out that we (community) shouldn't take nothing any dev said as granted.
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Yeah, I don't consider it canon either.
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I tend to think that the Sath is, dare I say it, a Shivan cruiser, or even a fighter. THey have so many of them, and it is speculated that they have much bigger ships, that the Sath is small in comparison. Therefore, a light cruiser of sorts, a heavy transport if you will, designed to get the Shivans home.
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I tend to think that the Sath is, dare I say it, a Shivan cruiser, or even a fighter. THey have so many of them, and it is speculated that they have much bigger ships, that the Sath is small in comparison. Therefore, a light cruiser of sorts, a heavy transport if you will, designed to get the Shivans home.
A very heavy transport indeed.
But because of the size of jump nodes, ships like the Sath can only grow longer, and I don't think they would grow longer than 25 km. Bigger ships would take ages to design, and they would start to look ridiculous. Imagine a Shivan juggernaut jumping in...
and jumping in...
:wtf:
and jumping in...
:eek2:
and still jumping in...
:eek:
Scary thought isn't it? Invasion of the Shivan Caterpillars...
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You can create that illusion with the SCa Shiamak in Inferno by setting its warp in speed to something small (like 50 m/s).
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Ships of any size can apparently fit through a node, maybe you're thinking about the Melia in INFR1?
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No, I meant that making it seem as if the thing warping in was really long and would never stop warping in.
The Icanus can't fit through the Knossos
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Yes, but natural nodes has a speculatively unlimited size, fly to the edge of one, will you?
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Yes, but natural nodes has a speculatively unlimited size, fly to the edge of one, will you?
Um... If natural nodes have an unlimited size, then what are those green lines on your HUD :confused:
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Um... If natural nodes have an unlimited size, then what are those green lines on your HUD :confused:
Estimates at which points the node is still usable?
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Um... If natural nodes have an unlimited size, then what are those green lines on your HUD :confused:
Estimates at which points the node is still usable?
There are probably Holographic markers to show where nodes are usably.
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They're not physical holograms, if that's what you mean, they're just info on your hud.
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They're not physical holograms, if that's what you mean, they're just info on your hud.
I mean Holograms in your hud.
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Given that the Sathanas is over a km taller and wider than the jump node as well as 4km longer why is anyone assuming that there is a natural limit on the size of jump nodes?
As far as I can see the centre of the warpin or warpout hole must be somewhere within the node. Beyond that I can't see that any limits were ever set.
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Gas miner.
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Gas miner.
Makes sense, Think off all the gas the shivans could harvest from the new capellian nebula? :D
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Or directly from the sun's corona.
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Beyond that I can't see that any limits were ever set.
what about the size of knossos?! would look strange if a ship, bigger than a knossos would jump through it imho ;)
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I did say a natural limit. The Knossos is obviously an artificial one. :p
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agreed......then you are right :nod:
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The size of the Sathanas' "fighterbay" has always bothered me. It's overly large and not good sense to put on a warship; it creates an area of vunerablity. And you could launch corvettes out of it.
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And you could launch corvettes out of it.
maybe they do?!? ;7
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One of the last missions in the multi campaign I was working on has a couple of wings of cains, a wing of liliths, and finally a Moloch launching from that docking bay.
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Given that the Sathanas is over a km taller and wider than the jump node as well as 4km longer why is anyone assuming that there is a natural limit on the size of jump nodes?
As far as I can see the centre of the warpin or warpout hole must be somewhere within the node. Beyond that I can't see that any limits were ever set.
Some limit must exist...only makes sense.
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A limit may exist, it may be variable, and it may apply to the jump nodes. What is to say the nodes are the only method of subspace travel? They may only be the first step into subspace. There could be other ways to travel into and through subspace. Do the Shivans know one? If they have a planet size ship they just might.
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If they have planet sized ships they probably travel by opening their own temporary subspace nodes.
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How big can a knossess be? Violation has to make a limit, for it to be visible at least, it's already huge!! I think a knosses could be humoungousaurusburger if they wanted it to be, it could fit a gigantic jupiter sized warship if they wanted to, but it would take a few more mesons to destroy and be so huge it would be quite tricky to see.
Could thinking though, it is a good idea, there is no cannon i can think of that goes against this, and a node may need the main centre of the warship to travel through the node and the rest could be anywhere. Notice that the collosuss has a larger warp signature than a pegasus stealth fighter? The warp suits the ship! It could be any size!!
Thumbs up for the thought :yes:
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Some limit must exist...only makes sense.
It could be way the hell up there though. So large that planet or even star sized ships are possible.
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i like the idea, that a sath is something like a transport and in order to think this further:
i say the sath fleet is carrying the whole civilization of the shivans.
arguments pro:
- the huge number of saths
- the huge size of the main hull (really a lot of space inside)
- the huge hangar
this would also fit perfectly with petrach´s guesses, that the shivans are nomads, searching a way back home. i bet capella is the only way back home for them (however for what reason) and as the knossos was re-opened they gathered the whole sath fleet together in order to give it a try....
only my 2 cents
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Exactly what I was thinking. I posted my (current ;)) theory about it here (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,51475.msg1041097.html#msg1041097).
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Some limit must exist...only makes sense.
Thing is, subspace is an interdimensional weirdness, and so far as we know, the only requirement necessary to use a node is to match the necessary vibrations for that particular n-dimensional whatever.
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Well I'm fairly sure you can't suck the entire universe through a subspace node. Where would it come out? :p Maybe we can say that's the limit. :D
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I always though the hud node indicator gave you the limit...
Maybe it's bigger for the shivies, given their more advanced subspace tech
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The Colossus is bigger than than the hud indicator too.
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I always though the hud node indicator gave you the limit...
Maybe it's bigger for the shivies, given their more advanced subspace tech
All of these problems go away if we allow that the hud indicators are simply showing you the region of space you must be in to trigger the node opening, not the maximum size of the opening generated. I'd contend the vortex expands to accommodate the vessel, though you'd still have to trigger it within the sphere shown by the hud.
Nodes that have been stabilized by a Knossos though would present a problem for obscenely massive ships of course, as they'd have to plow right through the Knossos in order to enter the node. But those are hardly naturally occurring factors that would influence the ship designs of a culture that didn't themselves build Knossos gates.
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the damn hud-indicator is just what its named.....an INDICATOR.....marking only the spot, nothing more.....
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I noticed 2 distinct possibilities here.
First there is nothing that says the Knossos portals and the regular jump nodes operate in the same way.
Second even if they do then maybe the Ancients created the Knossos devices as locks to prevents the big ships from coming through.
Now back to the size limit. What is to say that subspace is limited to this universe? Could it touch other universes? I can here those mad scientists now. "Lets see if we can create a node big enough to suck our universe into that universe" :lol:
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Well you'd first have to get the entire universe to vibrate at exactly the right frequency. :D
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Great thinking on the idea ;):yes:
The Sathanas i think could probably be a shivan version of perhaps a deimos. Though there's far more of them. A real destroyer of the shivans would be massive! The lucifer could of been a strike warship, but maybe the shivans are continuously getting more advanced technologocically, the shivans that destroyed the ancients would of been dreadfully more primative, but still massive in number and technological, if the lucy had BFReds on it's arms, the second incursion would be 200 times (give or take) more powerfull in fire power!!
Whith the warships they will have in another 20 or a hundred years, who knows how powerfull they'll be? :eek2: :jaw:
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Great thinking on the idea ;):yes:
The Sathanas i think could probably be a shivan version of perhaps a deimos. Though there's far more of them. A real destroyer of the shivans would be massive! The lucifer could of been a strike warship, but maybe the shivans are continuously getting more advanced technologocically, the shivans that destroyed the ancients would of been dreadfully more primative, but still massive in number and technological, if the lucy had BFReds on it's arms, the second incursion would be 200 times (give or take) more powerfull in fire power!!
Whith the warships they will have in another 20 or a hundred years, who knows how powerfull they'll be? :eek2: :jaw:
If the Shivans advance in 20 years to the current state they are now from the state they were in FS1, then what the heck were they like 5000 years ago in the war against the Ancients? Did they toss rocks at each other or what? (Reminds me of the Orks from Warhammer 40k)
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For all we know the Shivans could have slept for 1000's of years until we re-awoke them.
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Hmm, that doesn't sound right.
Here's my view: is it possible that the Shivans have already reached the height of technology? Given that they defeated the Ancients 8000 years ago, isn't it possible that they've already gone as advanced as they can go in terms of weaponry, and can go no further?
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Or they are just not trying to advance their weaponry (perhaps because they have no need to). This still leaves the question of why they didn't have beans during the Great War though.
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Maybe they try to use the minimum tech-level possible in each extermination task.
The rationale is simple: if you leave a couple disabled fighters drifting in space for a later race to find, they'll gain all the technology on those ships. So you want to keep your real big guns in reserve until they're absolutely needed.
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Maybe they try to use the minimum tech-level possible in each extermination task.
The rationale is simple: if you leave a couple disabled fighters drifting in space for a later race to find, they'll gain all the technology on those ships. So you want to keep your real big guns in reserve until they're absolutely needed.
That makes them sound more like a conservative race, when they are in fact xenocidal. However, it does make sense.
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I was just about to say that :nervous:
No i was! :lol:
Anyway, that sounds like a good theory, they have reached a peak and can go no further, or they are moving very slowly, through technology, and will only launch bigger weapons and bigger civilizations, and smaller weapons at smaller civilizations. If you sent a planet sized juggernaut that could rip through a planet (perhaps) why would you let a tiny civilization see it? Species can be very differant, one may take trillions of years to advance to subspace, others maybe able to build beam cannons after only seeing them for a month. :nod:
The shivans didn't know how powerful the human race was, they launched a warship that could wipe through most races ( :beamz: ) but it went BOOM. They sent a Ravana, that went boom, they sent a sath, that went boom, and they kept on loosing so they got rid of their capital in a way thast would surely damage them (perhaps they didn't know how big we were, wether we could of thrashed or get thrashed by 80 Juggs). That could of been just a time buyer so they could get the big guns ready, and, BUM BUM BUM!!! Superhuge warships with OMGHUMOUNGEOUSAURUSBURGERBEAMZ lets see how good this race really is? If they win this next one
A. Well this is a big powerfull enemy this multi-race, this will really be war
B. This is a dire threat, i wonder what they'd be up against a real army
C. Hmm, this fly is starting to become a misquito, maybe we should squash it
D. "Another petty problam, hey waiter, can you get us a cup of tea? The soldiers Middle of the Orion arm in the milky way are having a little bit of a problam my dear, but if they made a co-ordinated attack I'm sure they could do it."
"But what if they loose father?"
"Oh, they won't, and if they did, we'll just send in the army from the neighbouring galaxys of NGC 4414, M104, NGC 4013, NGC 3314 and NGC 4945."
C'mon, someone prove me wrong about that one, i know someone can!! Someone can always cannonically or logically proove a theory wrong (out of the ones i've seen. Also, most of this is speculation using logic, not cannon, i mean the logic of; if Mrs Smith could be first named Johnathon, Robert, Rebecca, or Ben, I'd think it would be Mrs Rebecca Smith, that's the logic i mean.
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Well I'm fairly sure you can't suck the entire universe through a subspace node. Where would it come out? :p Maybe we can say that's the limit. :D
Infinite size, infinite power...the limits will come well before that, but they will be limits of the technology, not subspace. Besides, how do you make vacuum vibrate?
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(...) The shivans didn't know how powerful the human race was, they launched a warship that could wipe through most races ( :beamz: ) but it went BOOM. They sent a Ravana, that went boom, they sent a sath (...)
C'mon, someone prove me wrong about that one, i know someone can!! Someone can always cannonically or logically proove a theory wrong (out of the ones i've seen. Also, most of this is speculation using logic, not cannon, i mean the logic of; if Mrs Smith could be first named Johnathon, Robert, Rebecca, or Ben, I'd think it would be Mrs Rebecca Smith, that's the logic i mean.
If the Shivans were aiming to exterminate us, why did they blow up Capella instead?
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If the Shivans were aiming to exterminate us, why did they blow up Capella instead?
ngtm1r theorised that they just wanted to show the GTVA how powerful they were. That does sound a bit unorthodox for a warning, considering also the fact that Shivans are xenocidal, but I think it has some grounds for being valid.
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If the Shivans were aiming to exterminate us, why did they blow up Capella instead?
and they kept on loosing so they got rid of their capital in a way thast would surely damage them (perhaps they didn't know how big we were, wether we could of thrashed or get thrashed by 80 Juggs). That could of been just a time buyer so they could get the big guns ready, and, BUM BUM BUM!!! Superhuge warships with OMGHUMOUNGEOUSAURUSBURGERBEAMZ lets see how good this race really is? If they win this next one
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Good one. However, I wonder what the 'larger problem' is, of which the Shivans are 'merely a symptom', as stated by :v:.
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Good one. However, I wonder what the 'larger problem' is, of which the Shivans are 'merely a symptom', as stated by :v:.
Or it could be that the Ancients (or some other race) are chasing the Shivans. :wtf:
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That has been done a hundred times in the HUGE campaigns started by n00bs that never get finished.
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That has been done a hundred times in the HUGE campaigns started by n00bs that never get finished.
No wonder nobody mentions it. :drevil:
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I personally cannot see the point in equipping a mere transporter with the devestating firepower of a Sathanas. It does seem that Shivans are hellbent on domination and extinstion of anyone who dares to cross subspace so my personal theory was the Sathani were deployed as revenge for taking out their planatary destroyer The Lucifer. After all, does it not say on the box of Freespace 2 "They want to know what happened to their scouting party".
Going back to The Ancients monologues, I realise I'm clutching at straws here, but I personally believe that the Sathani are only a somewhat recent developments created 100s, not 1,000s of years ago. In their 2nd monologue, it says "when the destroyers came for us we attacked, never had we been defeated. They were like the others.... only these were not like the others; they did not die". I therefore believe that The Ancients only encountered A if not The Lucifer type destroyer.
I say this as is it not claimed that The Ancients were the same as us techologically, and so therefore may not have developed weapons to counteract shield techology; "We have the knowledge, but not the means. and so this is our legacy. In subspace they cannot use their shields and into subspace they can be tracked".
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The firepower would be a side-effect of the huge available reactor power for the subspace stuff. Like:
- Shivan Engineer 1: Hey, we put several huge reactors in that huge ship, to get its subspace device working.
- Shivan Engineer 2: Great, how about putting some huge beam cannons on it? Energy enough.
- 1: Good idea, we could make it a blockade runner and have it :beamz: anything in front of it!
- 2: *drools*
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I wholeheartedly agree with that statement.
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I think a more reasonable explanation would be the Sathanas is the only Shivan ship capable of carrying and generating enough power for the subspace device. This is true because the military typically modifies the chassis for weapons platform instead of designing an entirely new vehicle. The Lucifier might have been able to generate the subspace rift or whatever it is, but due to the planetary bombardment weapons it had loaded and the relatively small chassis meant that there was no room left.
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I don't think it makes much sense that the most powerful warship of the fleet would be a transport.
Ok, it doesn't matter as long as shivans are fighting a race like humans or vasudans, but the mixed role won't work at all in case they meet a military power on par with their own.
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I personally cannot see the point in equipping a mere transporter with the devestating firepower of a Sathanas. It does seem that Shivans are hellbent on domination and extinstion of anyone who dares to cross subspace so my personal theory was the Sathani were deployed as revenge for taking out their planatary destroyer The Lucifer. After all, does it not say on the box of Freespace 2 "They want to know what happened to their scouting party".
Going back to The Ancients monologues, I realise I'm clutching at straws here, but I personally believe that the Sathani are only a somewhat recent developments created 100s, not 1,000s of years ago. In their 2nd monologue, it says "when the destroyers came for us we attacked, never had we been defeated. They were like the others.... only these were not like the others; they did not die". I therefore believe that The Ancients only encountered A if not The Lucifer type destroyer.
I say this as is it not claimed that The Ancients were the same as us techologically, and so therefore may not have developed weapons to counteract shield techology; "We have the knowledge, but not the means. and so this is our legacy. In subspace they cannot use their shields and into subspace they can be tracked".
A bit offtopic, but...
GODDAMN!
PLURAL OF SATHANAS EQUALS EITHER TO SATHANAI OR SATHANES!
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I don't think it makes much sense that the most powerful warship of the fleet would be a transport.
Ok, it doesn't matter as long as shivans are fighting a race like humans or vasudans, but the mixed role won't work at all in case they meet a military power on par with their own.
Who said it's the most powerful ship of their fleet? After the Great War, the GTVA thought that the Lucy was their single most powerful ship, and then they came up with 80 Saths. You're making the same mistake here. The Sath may or may not be the most powerful ship they ever made. THE most powerful one :shaking: is up to your imagination...
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Seconded. Who ssaid BFReds are actually strong? Maybe they're just crappy Shivan Blob Turrets.
Don't want to see the REAL BFRed though. That would be Galaxy pwnage.
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Fair enough. Still, you have to wonder, why then are Shivans throwing just rocks at the GTVA? They way I see it, if Sath was intended mostly as a transport, the the rest of the fleet they've used in their offensive appears underpowered.
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Underpowered to our logic, yes. But if you have uber-transports of 6km, your fleet composition will change. Trust me.
And - I know this is clichéd - perhaps the bulk of the Shivan fleet was fighting elsewhere. These 'rocks' they threw at the GTVA still smashed us big time, so they didn't need to send in anything else.
BTW, Stones, the Shivans shouldn't be overestimated either. They're part of an even bigger problem, remember?
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Ah yes. Speaking of which...
Think about this. Let's just say that Admiral Petrarch was right; that the Shivans were searching for a way back home. Considering that just flying around is pretty meaningless (seeing that they've been doing it for several millenniums) , maybe the Shivans had an idea that using weapons would create the cataclysm that would enable them to return home. Maybe their presence in GTVA systems all these years was to find such a way.