Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: PKDecatur on January 12, 2008, 10:20:42 pm
-
I've been hearing about the vehemently negative buzz coming from the NMA forums about Bethesda's handling of Fallout 3. Interplay sold them the IP to the franchise, they're changing it a lot, blah blah blah.
So I'm wondering- if Interplay does a similar thing to the Freespace franchise, how will you react?
I personally think that while it's unfortunate that the game looks and feels a lot different from the original FO game, it looks like it'll be a quality product. So the trade-off for having a new game in the franchise is that the original qualities of Fallout are changed or lost. The line-by-line critiques of the latest info released by Bethesda (the faction profile) are stunning. The hardcore fans really hate what the company's done to the series.
If Interplay somehow did the same to FS, sold it to Microsoft Game Studios or someone (just who is at the top of the modern day spaceflight combat simulator games, anyways?), would you be as angry as the NMA folks are about Fallout 3?
Edit: Just a side-note: there sure have been a lot of beloved franchises reviving recently under different developers, haven't there? Fallout, Sam & Max, Deus Ex, not to mention dormant cult classics like Majesty. Makes me wonder if this is a good or bad thing.
-
I think it certainly is a valid question if Interplay was willing to sell off Fallout. I would have to say "it depends", but I certainly would have pretty low expectations.
-
I'd probably be even more pissed. Bethesda ruins an RPG franchise, even one I really really like....well, there are lots and lots of other RPGs out there. Space flight sims are much harder to find. Ones that don't suck are even harder to find.
-
Honestly, I don't think I'd be that upset about a non-Volition FS3 even if it wasn't very good. My main worry would be what it'd do to this community.
-
Honestly, I don't think I'd be that upset about a non-Volition FS3 even if it wasn't very good. My main worry would be what it'd do to this community.
:yes:
-
Honestly, I don't think I'd be that upset about a non-Volition FS3 even if it wasn't very good. My main worry would be what it'd do to this community.
You might be level-headed and calm during such a situation but I almost certainly won't.
-
Yea, I wouldn't want them to sell FreeSpace's IP.
-
I think the best thing to hope is that the Volition team would be heavily involved if FS3 was made by other developers. Heck, maybe the team could do what the people behind the new Sam & Max games did- they left and made their own company. If not, the next best thing is if the new developers decided to make a prequel, so then they wouldn't be trying to answer the questions from the end of FS2 themselves, and thus wouldn't be accused of raping the IP by a bunch of FS zealots.
Another hope is that some of the original Volition people go off and make a "spiritual successor" to FS, not to mention revive the genre. I've noticed that sort of thing happening a lot lately. Witness, say, Supreme Commander.
I guess the thing about Fallout and Freespace is that the sequels were bigger and better than the original. Other franchises don't always have that luxury. A lot of people were angered by the dummying-down of Deus Ex: Invisible War, so even of DX3 turns out to be different from that, it's not as if they can say that it was the fault of a lack of Warren Spector.
The people who accuse Bethesda of ruining the Fallout series- well, I can see the point, but if they make a quality game, at least the series gets new fans, doesn't it? The NMA zealots, people who call the new (and excellent) Battlestar Galactica series "Galactica in Name Only", and so on- I understand their anger, but c'mon. If it's a quality product, then the series has simply evolved to a different form and captured a new fanbase. Oh well.
-
So I'm wondering- if Interplay does a similar thing to the Freespace franchise, how will you react?
Well, if we (the community) don't like it, then we ignore it and continue making our own sequels, prequels etc.
-
I think the best thing to hope is that the Volition team would be heavily involved if FS3 was made by other developers. Heck, maybe the team could do what the people behind the new Sam & Max games did- they left and made their own company. If not, the next best thing is if the new developers decided to make a prequel, so then they wouldn't be trying to answer the questions from the end of FS2 themselves, and thus wouldn't be accused of raping the IP by a bunch of FS zealots.
Another hope is that some of the original Volition people go off and make a "spiritual successor" to FS, not to mention revive the genre. I've noticed that sort of thing happening a lot lately. Witness, say, Supreme Commander.
I guess the thing about Fallout and Freespace is that the sequels were bigger and better than the original. Other franchises don't always have that luxury. A lot of people were angered by the dummying-down of Deus Ex: Invisible War, so even of DX3 turns out to be different from that, it's not as if they can say that it was the fault of a lack of Warren Spector.
The people who accuse Bethesda of ruining the Fallout series- well, I can see the point, but if they make a quality game, at least the series gets new fans, doesn't it? The NMA zealots, people who call the new (and excellent) Battlestar Galactica series "Galactica in Name Only", and so on- I understand their anger, but c'mon. If it's a quality product, then the series has simply evolved to a different form and captured a new fanbase. Oh well.
The Fallout community had to endure several setups and even betrayals over the years. (Fallout Tactics, Brotherhood of Steel and so on....the franchise was being practically raped even before Bethesda came into the picture). On top of this Van Buran was very promising, and finally seemed to return to the heart of what made fallout fallout....then it was canceled. (Interplay was getting rid of all PC development).
Finally, Bethesda never made anything similar to Fallout. All their games fall into the giant sandbox with an intricate environment genre, rather than Fallout's intricately personalized and living world. Where living doesn't mean a bunch of generic - even engine generated - actions by NPCs, that's all bland and identical, but distinct individuals with their own quirks and fancies. Yep, it's a scriptfest, but Fallout simply had so much packed into it; with such an elaborate and far-reaching scenarios, that you really could make a difference.
In a recent interview I read, it was stated, that Bethesda purchased Fallout because the trends and objectives associated with the franchise actually cover up their own shortcomings.
...and for all the hype about freedom in Bethesda games, when you get down to it - and I played hundreds of hours with their titles - they're a big exploration game, with a minimal plot thrown in and powerplaying to give you a sense of achievement. Granted, you can play with it, but it's NOT a living world. I don't care about a freedom where the world doesn't react to me...your actions carry no weight. Either you fufill a mission or not. (Or you go on a rampage). The bottom line is, your actions never resulted in tangible consequences that you could identify with.
Compare this with Fallout, where you could talk, shoot or even joke your way out of a whole number of situations....and could do the good, the bad or ugly thing at the very same time. You could get married, be pornstar, settle a gangwar ect. etc.
-
So I'm wondering- if Interplay does a similar thing to the Freespace franchise, how will you react?
Well, if we (the community) don't like it, then we ignore it and continue making our own sequels, prequels etc.
Makes sense. but if :v: does hand away the freespace IP, then we must fight so that darek not-so-smart doesen't get it.
-
Volition don't have the FS IP, haloboy.
If not, the next best thing is if the new developers decided to make a prequel, so then they wouldn't be trying to answer the questions from the end of FS2 themselves, and thus wouldn't be accused of raping the IP by a bunch of FS zealots.
Resolving the cliffhanger would be the only reason I'd want a FS3, though. Odds are it wouldn't be open source even if it was as mod-friendly as FS2; FS Open has the opportunity to continue improving as long as people stick around to work on it, while FS3, at best, might be better for a couple years. Really the only purpose a third Freespace could have would be to conclude the story.
In any case I'd be just as worried even if Volition were the ones making it. Their recent track record is far from reassuring.
-
Just a side-question: what if Bioware had bought the Fallout IP?
-
Just a side-question: what if Bioware had bought the Fallout IP?
Many people would still grumble, however the majority of us would likely take it in stride; since as much as they took - combat would be probably their real-time turn-based, and it would be rendered in their KOTOR-ish 3rd person perspective - they would add in spades. They have already prooved that they can write a kickass story, with dynamic events and beliviable characters.
So it may not be as interactive as the original fallout, at the its heart would have been in the right place.
To me Fallout was about making choices, and exploring my character - which meant that my earlier choices forced me to play in some manner, ergo creating the character on the fly. I was never one to be too concerned with the strict mechanics of the game. The prime reason why some people are so enarmored with it though is probably because it has been so personalized. Getting a perk isn't just a boost to your stat. It's a badge of your conduct.
-
To me Fallout was about making choices, and exploring my character - which meant that my earlier choices forced me to play in some manner, ergo creating the character on the fly. I was never one to be too concerned with the strict mechanics of the game. The prime reason why some people are so enarmored with it though is probably because it has been so personalized. Getting a perk isn't just a boost to your stat. It's a badge of your conduct.
True. It was also the world. Dark humour and bleakness. Stealing, killable children, homeless druggies and overall misery. No big gamehouse would put those things in to their product.
Other thing was the amount of dialog, well written and clever dialog. That wasn't weighted down by needless audio. No big gamehouse would have voiceless dialog in their product.
For these reasons F3 should have been made by a smaller gameshop. Or some obscure east European one. That's where the best games come from. Though prettiest (heaviest) games still come from the big houses...
-
No big gamehouse would have voiceless dialog in their product.
Nintendo seems to do pretty well with it in the Zelda series. :p
As someone who doesn't know anything at all about the Fallout series, one thing that's struck me as odd since the Bethesda news first broke is how so many people are convinced they'll automagically transform Fallout 3 into something nearly identical in every way to one of their own games. Is there some law now that states that a game developer has to maintain the same exact gameplay mechanics across every single title they make, even if said titles belong to entirely different franchises? Maybe I'm just ignorant of some key piece of knowledge, but to me, saying that Fallout 3 will play just like Oblivion is exactly like saying that FS2 uses the same gameplay mechanics as Saints' Row.
-
Bethesda are an exception in that Elder Scrolls is pretty much the only thing of any significance they've ever done.
But I suspect the outrage has more to do with the low opinion many of the distraught Fallout fans seem to have of Bethesda's products. Which is something I can agree with, really.
-
It's really about Bethesda themselves, yes. Everything we've seen has been ambiance, and that's not winning any converts, because we weren't worried about that. Ambiance is the one thing Bethsoft is really good at. Their dialogue, however, is typically all over the map, and their gameplay mechanics are typically somewhere between "God awful" and "Kill me now."
Bioware would at least be closer to the fallout feel, but they have their fair share of problems as well. The fallout fans would've loved Troika to do F3, but as it turns out, Troika's business mechanics were as bad as Bethesda's gameplay mechanics.
-
For these reasons F3 should have been made by a smaller gameshop. Or some obscure east European one. That's where the best games come from. Though prettiest (heaviest) games still come from the big houses...
East European company? Are you talking about Space Rangers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Rangers_%28video_game%29) or something? Because there are some really good "foreign" (non-US) games that never get any press. What if FreeSpace 3 was in Polish, huh?
-
Bethesda are an exception in that Elder Scrolls is pretty much the only thing of any significance they've ever done.
Actually terminator future shock + terminator skynet were great games
-
East European company? Are you talking about Space Rangers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Rangers_%28video_game%29) or something? Because there are some really good "foreign" (non-US) games that never get any press. What if FreeSpace 3 was in Polish, huh?
Well Space Rangers is a very good example. Especially Dominators... Then there are games like UFO: Extraterrestrials, which tries to reach the feel of the original Enemy Unknown... Not quite there, but closer than any other candidate...
Then there are games like IL-2 Sturmovik and S.T.A.L.K.E.R, which, I think, require no introductions...
In general, those Russian and east European games that manage to get published in the west, demonstrate considerable excellence in things *other* than just newest shader support...
-
Volition don't have the FS IP, haloboy.
Judging from their response to the Derek Smart debacle though no one can make FS3 without giving them a chance first.
-
But I suspect the outrage has more to do with the low opinion many of the distraught Fallout fans seem to have of Bethesda's products. Which is something I can agree with, really.
I have to say, this brings up another point that puzzles me, since I know several people who feel that Oblivion is pretty much the greatest thing since sliced bread. Hell, one of my friends has been playing the 360 version for months, and he shows no signs of slowing. :p
-
But I suspect the outrage has more to do with the low opinion many of the distraught Fallout fans seem to have of Bethesda's products. Which is something I can agree with, really.
I have to say, this brings up another point that puzzles me, since I know several people who feel that Oblivion is pretty much the greatest thing since sliced bread. Hell, one of my friends has been playing the 360 version for months, and he shows no signs of slowing. :p
As I wrote it's a sandbox game - ergo, you invent your own gameplay. 'Make-belive' if you will.
-
Bethesda are an exception in that Elder Scrolls is pretty much the only thing of any significance they've ever done.
So, is the ES series an anomaly? (a serious question)
Hell, one of my friends has been playing the 360 version for months, and he shows no signs of slowing. :p
I can understand the PC version with the mods, such as Midas Spells of Aurum for a few reasons (having DnD spells such as Chain Lightning and Prismatic Sp\ray is the big one), but the 360 version, c'mon, there's not much to do after the main campaign and the Daedric God quests...
-
Someone in this community should try to win the lottery so that HLP can buy the IP.
-
They'd probably be willing to sell it for what we could gather in pocket change.
-
Bethesda are an exception in that Elder Scrolls is pretty much the only thing of any significance they've ever done.
So, is the ES series an anomaly? (a serious question)
Hell, one of my friends has been playing the 360 version for months, and he shows no signs of slowing. :p
I can understand the PC version with the mods, such as Midas Spells of Aurum for a few reasons (having DnD spells such as Chain Lightning and Prismatic Sp\ray is the big one), but the 360 version, c'mon, there's not much to do after the main campaign and the Daedric God quests...
no way, the xbox version allows for a totally different style of game play, it has more of a first person shooter feel to it than a RPG... also there are 2 expansions that have different quests and whatnot
-
no way, the xbox version allows for a totally different style of game play, it has more of a first person shooter feel to it than a RPG... also there are 2 expansions that have different quests and whatnot
Erm. Don't know where to start. Guess I'll start with
1. First Person Shooter Feel - Haven't you played the PC version? It feels more like an FPS compared to an RPG on a PC as well. The only RPG elements is the occasional leveling and the equipping different armor and weapons. Otherwise, it feels more like an FPS (less so than Hellgate: London, but same idea).
2. The Expansions - Erm, you do know that the PC version technically has more expansions than the Xbox, due to TES Nexus, right? Plus, "The Shivering Isles" is for both, thus you only have one more official expansion than the PC. But I'd rather have the Midas Spells of Aurum or The Lost Spires and scores of others compared to a single dev expansion. IMHO, user-made expansions are better than dev expansions, such as those mentioned for Oblivion or Yoyorast Island, Coldsnap, and Hugass for Halo Custom Edition.
Conclusion: The PC version has more re-playability than the Xbox version and the only expansions for the Xbox version you can either get for PC or is a dev-created. I'd rather have the PC version and I still don't understand months of the same game without signs of stopping... :doubt:
-
no way, the xbox version allows for a totally different style of game play, it has more of a first person shooter feel to it than a RPG... also there are 2 expansions that have different quests and whatnot
Erm. Don't know where to start. Guess I'll start with
1. First Person Shooter Feel - Haven't you played the PC version? It feels more like an FPS compared to an RPG on a PC as well. The only RPG elements is the occasional leveling and the equipping different armor and weapons. Otherwise, it feels more like an FPS (less so than Hellgate: London, but same idea).
2. The Expansions - Erm, you do know that the PC version technically has more expansions than the Xbox, due to TES Nexus, right? Plus, "The Shivering Isles" is for both, thus you only have one more official expansion than the PC. But I'd rather have the Midas Spells of Aurum or The Lost Spires and scores of others compared to a single dev expansion. IMHO, user-made expansions are better than dev expansions, such as those mentioned for Oblivion or Yoyorast Island, Coldsnap, and Hugass for Halo Custom Edition.
Conclusion: The PC version has more re-playability than the Xbox version and the only expansions for the Xbox version you can either get for PC or is a dev-created. I'd rather have the PC version and I still don't understand months of the same game without signs of stopping... :doubt:
You make good points man. :yes:
I like the PC version because whenever I started a new game I could just cheat and give my charicter everything.
Mainly I think it has the feeling of playing a FPS on xbox because the controller is the same one I use for games like gears of war or Halo 3 (the only reason I even bought a console)
I cant offer a say on user the user based expansions, only because I have not played them...
-
Maybe because...the person simply enjoys the game? From what I understand about it, you don't even really have to progress through the main storyline with all of the other stuff to do in it.
-
Maybe because...the person simply enjoys the game? From what I understand about it, you don't even really have to progress through the main storyline with all of the other stuff to do in it.
Yeah, you can spend weeks or months without playing the main story (depending on how much time you have to play the game)
-
In any case, this whole scenario is fascinating to me. Remakes and reboots can often get super critical acclaim and make millions and still piss off the long-timer fans. There are Bond fans (http://www.alternative007.co.uk/index.htm) who despite Casino Royale. Battlestar Galactica fans (http://www.b5tech.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=3) who despise nBSG. I'm not sure if there are hardcore Batman fans who hate Batman Begins, but I suspect I'd have to go back in time, since Frank Miller already rebooted the series with grim and gritty far before the film. I name these franchises because they're all share the common factor that they were in a rut or defunct before the reboots happened and drastically changed the identity of the series. So if a moribund series like Fallout or even Freespace is remade by others who still manage to create an awesome game that nets rave reviews and sales, but pisses off the old fans, well, it's simply a fascinating situation.
I've always wondered if there are any Tolkien fans who vehemently hate the films despite the success and attention it brought to LoTR. Though that's different, since LoTR wasn't exactly dwindling when the adaptations were made. So ignore that example.
-
What's fascinating about it? Fans like the game, that's almost certainly for what the game is. Drastically changing the identity of the series by it's very nature alters it, likely what they liked in the first place. It's not a huge mystery.
-
Fallout is simply the best game I ever played (FS is second :P )
In the beginning I was giving the Benefit of doubt to Bethesda, although I hated Oblivion (the only game I played from them). Yeah sure they were changing the combat mechanics and perspective and so on, but really I was already expecting that, and wouldnt accept anything else in all honesty. Turn-based and ISO are a bit of short sellers nowadays, and to be honest, I can see why.
The thing I love about fallout is the consequential side of things and the richness of its universe in all aspects (characters, design, etc).
However, after seeing their art direction and their Brotherhood of Steel descriptions... damn them they wont get it right... -.-
On the other hand, what NMA was expecting is pretty close to your average fairy tale :P
If someone bought FS's IP, I'd have to see what they were up to first, before commenting on it.