Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Mika on January 14, 2008, 01:34:48 pm
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Since I have refused to do anything with the Source Code Project until someone can honestly call it complete, there is one question that has been bothering me: has the wingmen AI been improved in SCP? Why do I ask? This might be the call for me to start FREDding again. At least the wingmen should be able to fire Trebuchets and the rest of the missiles and use bombs more reasonably, ie. not firing them from kilometers away. And they should be able to cope with the flak much better as this tends to be one of the defenses they cannot really compete against. Maybe a command to automatically destroy any AAA-beams or flak cannons could be added?
I tested a few self-constructed missions where player is penalized if he loses wingman/wingmen, even though they are doable, I find the general difficulty level quite high. Not a bad thing necessarily, but it cannot be scaled down. But on the other hand, I like the idea. "If you can't then you suck." Instead of making wingmen invulnerable at some point, I'd like them to get destroyed when it happens. Too bad that currently it is too often and will make them look like incompetent idiots while Alpha 1 is screaming "Stop dying you cowards!" or "You can't possibly be that stupid!" or "What the hell is so difficult in avoiding those beams/flak/missiles/enemy projectiles!"
Mika
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You can use the special hits to make them harder to kill without making them invulnerable. I think there are also options now for ordering the firing of secondaries at specific subsystems. Not sure if they work correctly yet though. It might take some doing but you should be able to make the AI work better and survive longer. My suggestion is to get the latest version and give it a try.
Oh and if you want you can modify the AI table yourself to make it more to your liking. I've never done any mods myself but from looking at some of the things it shouldn't be too hard to make some small changes. Don't like the AI bombers firing at long range make a bomb for the AI with a shorter range. Want them to be smarter add a godlike AI profile.
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Since I have refused to do anything with the Source Code Project until someone can honestly call it complete
Then you'll never do anything. Give up now. :p
There's no such thing as complete with something like the SCP. Only the point when the last coder gives up/dies.
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There's no such thing as complete with something like the SCP. Only the point when the last coder gives up/dies.
It'd only take a knife and a couple of plane tickets. :nervous: :P
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You volunteering to go into the light first? :p
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Seriously, Mika, you're missing out.
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I don't know about the SCP. Visual upgrade didn't struck me as important, and for this reason I haven't chosen SCP yet. I always thought that the AI upgrade would be the priority number one for me. About the solution you gave, I'm not sure if I could do the things with simple table changes.
For human player, if I remember correctly, the bomb locking can only be done when the bomb is in range. Does this happen for the computer also? If so, this would bring the bombers too close, since they will proceed towards the capital ship without being able to launch the weapons, until lock is achieved. Then the correct bombing distance would depend on the ship you are facing!
So would it be possible to lock before launch, and let AI decide when the probability of hitting is good enough? Actually, this would be fun for missiles also. Any missile could be shot from much longer distance in head-to-head situations. Trebuchet range 5 km? Now double that if the enemy is approaching with full burners! This would make it more difficult to hit a retreating opponent further than 2.5 km away but I think this is implemented somehow already.
Also, the command to search and destroy all and any AAA-beams and flak cannons (in a specific ship, preferably) would be really nice, but I wouldn't want it to happen automatically if a capital ship turret happened to slash a wingman. Keep the formation until I say otherwise!
I haven't checked through the AI tables of FS2. Where could I find them from FS2 main directory?
Mika
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Ah, forgot one thing which I always thought as strange. The wingmen could this time also communicate with each other who will be firing which target, so that the firing is not concentrated to a single target (an overkill in most cases) unless instructed so. Of course player doesn't need to hear about this, or know about this. This would conserve missiles.
Mika
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Could the SCP make a "Take down targeted subsystem" command?
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It's already there, it's number 4 in the command list.
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:wtf: Really?
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Yes. Target the subsystem you want destroyed, and press something like C-3-4. Any wingmen you ordered will now try to destroy that subsystem. I can't guarantee they will do a very good job of it, but if you get all of your wingmen on one subsystem, it will usually go down pretty quick.
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Wasn't a "Destroy Targeted Subsystem" command in FS1 too?
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I believe so. It's in something like the second training mission.
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Duh, it's in both.
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Yep the target subsystem command was in (the earliest I remember anyways) the Descent: FreeSpace Demo Beta (first time I ever got a chance to play). So its been a feature pretty much since the start. Against most subsystems and in a group it makes your wingman a surgical strike machine.
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Well, most of the time it makes my wingmen fly in circles, crash into the target and and then they die one by flak, enemy ships or aaaf.
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IIRC that's because AFTER they take down the subsystem it makes them ignore the ship.
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I don't know about the SCP. Visual upgrade didn't struck me as important, and for this reason I haven't chosen SCP yet. I always thought that the AI upgrade would be the priority number one for me. About the solution you gave, I'm not sure if I could do the things with simple table changes.
The visual upgrade was the most obvious adjustment, but they also did other things that are a little below the radar. The enemy AI is actually better, everything just seems a bit harder than it was.
Also, the command to search and destroy all and any AAA-beams and flak cannons
There was a command in FS1 and FS2 called "disarm my target", that's what it does (including blob turrets)
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Since I have refused to do anything with the Source Code Project until someone can honestly call it complete..
How do you define "complete"? There have been completed releases already.
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Anyone who knocks the AI in Freespace just doesn't know how to use it properly.
And that's more of a "knowing how to play the game" fault.
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Ah, forgot one thing which I always thought as strange. The wingmen could this time also communicate with each other who will be firing which target, so that the firing is not concentrated to a single target (an overkill in most cases) unless instructed so. Of course player doesn't need to hear about this, or know about this. This would conserve missiles.
Mika
Target a hostile. See the little filled red circles next to its target box? Each red circle means one of your wingmen is attacking that target. This was a feature first implemented in an old FS1 patch.
While we're talking about subsystems, just remember one thing, according to the AI code (which the SCP team hasn't changed at all) any computer pilot firing at a subsystem has 100% accuracy. So C-3-4 can be useful, although in practice it's too tedious to bother with that exploit.
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Dang it! I never knew so many people would answer while I'm figure skating back to home through the 3 km long bicycle way. So I'll try to answer some questions and suggestions quickly today. I'm in a urgent good night sleep here.
There was a command in FS1 and FS2 called "disarm my target", that's what it does (including blob turrets)
If I remember correctly, this is not prioritized in retail version - or then the wingmen never destroyed the most dangerous AAA-weapon for some reason. Anyways, the most important thing is that the command is single target related and the wingmen will fixate to that target until the most dangerous stuff has been blown up. Sure you could command it yourself to each wingmen, but that suddenly makes your fingers really dance on the keyboard. Besides, I usually don't have time to check through the capital ship cannons and AAA-weaponry if they have been destroyed. What I think would be of the lines: "You may freely engage and destroy any and all AAA-beams and flak cannons, but nothing else. Please make sure you each destroy a different target."
How do you define "complete"? There have been completed releases already.
A version that has standardized FRED commands and the same functionality in every computer. I don't want to design a mission that relies on some OpenFRED-thing which doesn't appear the same like with every computer. Also, no glitches and bugs. How does this differ from the current release paths? Current releases tend to happen on a faster rate, while I have had difficulties to follow which things have been changed in which version, especially in Graphics department and in SEXP-lists. What I would like to see is a surely working version of the FSOpen that contains the basic commands that will be found in every version after it and those commands will function always exactly the same way. A building block version if you will.
Anyone who knocks the AI in Freespace just doesn't know how to use it properly.
And that's more of a "knowing how to play the game" fault.
Here I'm already thinking of RE-writing a mission (dang Windows XP reinstallation and dang nuclear1 and Mongoose) that will surely change that attitude. Also, check Falcon 4.0 AI for a reference of almost believeable behaving airplanes. Of course, FreeSpace is faster paced, but here computer doesn't need to calculate turn rates and energies in dogfight. Also, what is wrong with the missile evasion of the wingmen?
Target a hostile. See the little filled red circles next to its target box? Each red circle means one of your wingmen is attacking that target. This was a feature first implemented in an old FS1 patch.
While we're talking about subsystems, just remember one thing, according to the AI code (which the SCP team hasn't changed at all) any computer pilot firing at a subsystem has 100% accuracy. So C-3-4 can be useful, although in practice it's too tedious to bother with that exploit.
But this is not what I tried to say! I don't want to specifically command every ship under my command to engage a different enemy. They could do it automatically, maybe even informing player (chatter before the real battle, but important with Trebuchet scenarios) which one which wingman will take - and also informing player when they change targets after the last one was destroyed or priorities change (important while dogfighting). Some of the wingmen casualities are related to the player not being able to follow their actions while himself engaged.
Also, some prescribed attack patterns could be useful wingmen commands, like "Launch longest range missiles and return formation", Bracket - type tricks would be nice of course with the additional option for dragging the enemy so that you can get a shot to its tail. Also a quick command for immediate maximum turn rate turn to up/down/left/right to a specific wingman would be useful. Like they tell you there's someone behind you (would it be difficult to add a best possible direction on the message to counter the enemy?), you could also effect them to not get shot down so easily with these, while getting the enemy in your crosshairs.
Would it be possible for wingmen to actually keep in pace with Alpha 1 if he decides to direct all energy to engines and use the afterburner?
Mika
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Let me tell you know that not many people even care about what their wingmen are doing. I like your suggestions, but FreeSpace isn't meant to be a tactical simulation, and unless you can convince the SCP team otherwise, they're not going to spend their time on features that one or two people want. The most common wingmen command is "C-3-9", and not many people care about tactics beyond that, even if they could make their job much easier by just putting a little thought into the game.
If you want some sophisticated air-to-air tactics, I suggest Falcon 4.0. That game has most of the features you're asking for.
Would it be possible for wingmen to actually keep in pace with Alpha 1 if he decides to direct all energy to engines and use the afterburner?
Now that last feature I can really agree with. Again, it was never implemented because noone made it a priority. If you want your wingmen to use burners, just tell them to attack something in the general direction of where you want them to go and they'll hit burners.
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I have a small complaint. Whenever I tell my fellow bombers to disarm or dissable an enemy, they don't use their bombs. I remember something in the FS1 training mission about them trying not to destroy the ship, but I just want them to make it easier to destroy, which includes them softening it up with their bombs. (Tries to think of a ending.) Umm... thats all.
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A version that has standardized FRED commands and the same functionality in every computer. I don't want to design a mission that relies on some OpenFRED-thing which doesn't appear the same like with every computer. Also, no glitches and bugs.
If you want no glitches or bugs give up on modding right now. FS2 Retail had plenty of both.
As for standardised versions. 3.6.9 has been the standard version for more than a year now. Missions made on 3.6.9 should work absolutely the same on 3.6.10. Backwards compatibility has always been a big feature of FSO and there are only a few occasions where that has actually been broken recently.
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Regarding FS2 bugs and glitches, the worst were commands progressing to all friendly ships around, stupid wingmen and then there were some issues with FRED, you could make it crash if you did certain steps which I have forgotten. Other game play affecting bugs I didn't encounter or simply don't remember them. Would the SCP do well when compared to that? Also to nickpick, I have never modded FS2 and never will. I construct missions with FRED.
Let me tell you know that not many people even care about what their wingmen are doing. I like your suggestions, but FreeSpace isn't meant to be a tactical simulation, and unless you can convince the SCP team otherwise, they're not going to spend their time on features that one or two people want. The most common wingmen command is "C-3-9", and not many people care about tactics beyond that, even if they could make their job much easier by just putting a little thought into the game.
If you want some sophisticated air-to-air tactics, I suggest Falcon 4.0. That game has most of the features you're asking for.
I already have Falcon 4.0. But I don't want FS to feel like it. Compared to that, the overall impression of FS2 is that you are a future's rifleman, serving in space, you personally being the group leader. I think there are several nice foot soldier's tactics that could be programmed to the AI behavior. Note that the Bracket (Flanking) and Drag and Bag have their soldier's equivalents also. Generally I feel that it is the basic ground war tactics that could make a huge difference in how the game plays. However, the thing about real world is that if you suffer 50 % losses, your unit is then considered destroyed and cannot complete the strategical or tactical objective, and will probably be joined to some other unit. Or then wait for replacements.
Also, think about the Perseus interceptor. I always thought it quite strange fighter, since it actually doesn't happen to have any real intercepting capabilities, especially if the wingmen cannot launch Trebuchets. Then the Perseus is more like the last line of defence of the carrier group, while actually interceptors should be the first line of defence, if you follow real world tactics. The real interceptor would be the Ares or Erinyes fighter, both have capacity to lob enough missiles to suppress anything. Whether this is relevant to FS2, you and SCP team can decide. These are just questions and suggestions.
Oh, one more thing about flak. Do the wingmen realise that they can go around the flak or AAA-beam perimeter, preferably at the outer radius? If they are not in the radius, could it be possible to program them analyze the risk of going through the perimeter, rather than circling around it? Or at least fly unpredictably if they are attacked by flak?
Mika
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Wait, so you haven't tried FSOpen at all? Because you're afraid it'll be buggy?
It takes a little effort to get set up, but it's always performed beautifully for me. If there are troubles, it's likely the fault of the MediaVPs or mods rather than FSOpen itself.
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The reason I haven't tried FSOpen is the same reason I haven't tried Linux. I cannot be bothered to find all the necessary things to make it useful. And if you happen to be one of those unlucky persons who will find trouble with the updates, lots of time will be wasted trying to make something work... and free time is a luxury for me at least. And besides, I have really lost count on how many models of which ship have been created at which polycount and where I could find them. The problem with VPs, does that include the retail Media.vp?
Mika
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In the time it took to make all these posts you could have started the install, left and did what you needed to do, and come back and tried it for yourself.
Yes there are bugs but there were bugs in retail. At least now you get an error message instead of a crash to desktop with no explanation. You can usually work around those bugs once you run into them.
Retail VPs and MediaVPs are 2 separate things. The retail VPs are included but they are just that the retail ones. You can easily switch back and forth between versions and mods with the launcher.
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I had it working fine with just one download, y'know.
And I find the new downloads remarkably easy to work with.