Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: jdjtcagle on January 21, 2008, 01:27:24 pm
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What do you think? Do you think it's possible? Think of the 2nd mission of Freespace 1... How in the world did they survive without some kind of base around?
Is there fan-based Vasudan asteroid bases out there? How many Terrain bases are there?
We know that Terrans expected either a base or destroyer in the nebulae... maybe experience from the vasudans taught them so?
Opinions?
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The only reason we thought there would be a base/destroyer in the nebula was because of all of the fighters there. And because of the probable cost, I doubt there are any non-mining asteroid bases.
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Probably but doesn't that suggest that wherever fighters are located there must be a destroyer? How can this be when the Taranis was the source of command for it's sector but yet no fighter bay for it's protection.
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Because there was a destroyer somewhere in-system providing fighters for its escort?
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Because there was a destroyer somewhere in-system providing fighters for its escort?
That doesn't add up...
When the Taranis first arrives in mission it attacks the HOL ship -> jumps out, we attack it before it leaves the system to re-supply. It only has minimal fighter escort. Surely a destroyer could help a cruiser out unless the destroyer is in the other system. Which if that's the case then how did they survive that long without a somewhere to dock? It doesn't make sense that a cruiser has more authority than a destroyer... maybe that had something to do with the term "sector". We probably assume system means sector vise versa.
All I'm getting at is that there must be a reasonable explanation for the appearance of so many fighters and no destroyer. Shivan or Vasudan... There was never a threat of a Vasudan destroyer in the 2nd mission, they used the asteroids to hide...
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Shivan fighters are capable of making system-system jumps. And shivans find it quite cozy in Zero-G. It's possible they can stay in their fighters for days.
Ergo, it's possible that the fighters jumped in system to escort the Taranis, and were headed back towards their destroyer for resupply later.
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Shivan fighters are capable of making system-system jumps. And shivans find it quite cozy in Zero-G. It's possible they can stay in their fighters for days.
Ergo, it's possible that the fighters jumped in system to escort the Taranis, and were headed back towards their destroyer for resupply later.
That's an excellent point
But what of the Vasudans?
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Because there was a destroyer somewhere in-system providing fighters for its escort?
That doesn't add up...
When the Taranis first arrives in mission it attacks the HOL ship -> jumps out, we attack it before it leaves the system to re-supply. It only has minimal fighter escort. Surely a destroyer could help a cruiser out unless the destroyer is in the other system. Which if that's the case then how did they survive that long without a somewhere to dock? It doesn't make sense that a cruiser has more authority than a destroyer... maybe that had something to do with the term "sector". We probably assume system means sector vise versa.
All I'm getting at is that there must be a reasonable explanation for the appearance of so many fighters and no destroyer. Shivan or Vasudan... There was never a threat of a Vasudan destroyer in the 2nd mission, they used the asteroids to hide...
What are you talking about, "a cruiser has more authority than a destroyer"? The Shivans probably didn't bother sortieing the destroyer because it wasn't worth putting the destroyer out in the open like that; it's better to just send a few wings of fighters. And it's possible for fighters to piggy-back into an inter-system subspace node with the cruiser. IIRC it's even in the tech description of something. It' also possible for the fighters to dock with the cruiser, one at a time, though.
And what are you saying about the Vasudans?
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Why would they need a base? Freespace fighters have magical reactor producing endless amounts of pixiedust for both the ships power needs and subsystem repairs. And the pilot can live on recycled pudding for weeks if need be. Only thing they would need a base for is hull repairs and munitions resupply. Except if the pilots are very careful...
We saw, was it two, destroyers accompanying the Lucifer. Maybe one or two more we didn't see. A destroyer weren't in system, but sortied a fighter escort for Taranis from some other system. Shivan fighters do seem to have some uber jumpdrives afterall, judging from the many mission they have been seen using a node. Both FS1 and FS2. A Shivan destroyer doesn't even have to be in the contested system. It can provide fighter and bomber support trough nodelines.
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I see more clearly now from the shivans side of things...
There have been a number of recent attacks by the Vasudans in the Betelgeuse system. They have been making strikes on Terran convoys en route to the Betelgeuse-Antares jump point. The Vasudan attacks have been stages from a nearby asteroid field.
Terran intelligence is certain that there are four small attack wings responsible for the attacks on our convoys. There have also been reports of a Vasudan ace piloting one of the Seth class fighters in the area.
Here's the 2nd mission in Fs1...
Which takes place in the Betelgeuse system. Now how do they live constantly in the asteroid field?
no pixiedust... :p
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I suppose the fighters were hiding out till a Vasudan destroyer could arrive and evacuate them. It still doesn't explain why they have 100% hull integrity despite doing "raids" on Terran convoys. It would have made alot more sense if the pilot was sent on a patrol mission and end up having a little skirmish with the Vasudan wings doing their own patrol in the area.
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Very well, I have nothing... I'm kinda convinced there MUST of been a destroyer, but there's still doubt...
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Well there were covert operations and spies and renegades as some missions suggested. Perhaps Vasudans had arranged for some support for their fighters. Like converted cargo containers or something similar. Small and easily transported. They wouldn't need much more than a pressurized container where to repair their ships. Maybe they enlisted some Terran help for getting it in to position. Or maybe they left it there the last time they had some control over the system.
The war had been going on for many, many years. And the situation was becoming desperate for both sides. I'm pretty much sure that whatever you can think of, Vasudans and Terrans thought it. And if at all possible, they would have done it. From converted cargo containers to blocking a node with junk.
Quite frankly, FS1 had a few plotholes. Thus I prefer the pixiedust explanation.
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Like converted cargo containers or something similar. Small and easily transported. They wouldn't need much more than a pressurized container where to repair their ships. Maybe they enlisted some Terran help for getting it in to position.
Complete with microwaves and port-o-potties :p
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It's worth noting that the details of the FreeSpace universe were being fleshed out even while the missions were being created. Originally there were going to be "a series of missions" between the CommandBrief cutscene and the capture of the Taranis that would consist of wearing down the Taranis's defenses. This, coupled with the mission briefing, leads me to believe that the Taranis was conceived as a much larger and more powerful vessel.
I imagine similar explanations would account for the other plot holes. One of the reasons FS2 was more coherent was that :v: already had a universe to work with.
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That's a good view on the whole thing as well :nod:
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I suppose the fighters were hiding out till a Vasudan destroyer could arrive and evacuate them. It still doesn't explain why they have 100% hull integrity despite doing "raids" on Terran convoys. It would have made alot more sense if the pilot was sent on a patrol mission and end up having a little skirmish with the Vasudan wings doing their own patrol in the area.
It also doesn't totally explain how the Vasudans managed to get fighters into Ross 128, so far behind the front lines.
I'm pretty sure Vasudan fighters could make inter-system jumps, and actually in a mission we can see them doing this. The first mission after the Galatea is destroyed you can see several damaged Vasudan fighters leaving the Vasuda Prime node. And then there were the Macross's escort fighters....
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I'm pretty sure Vasudan fighters could make inter-system jumps, and actually in a mission we can see them doing this. The first mission after the Galatea is destroyed you can see several damaged Vasudan fighters leaving the Vasuda Prime node. And then there were the Macross's escort fighters....
Another of those plotholes I mentioned... It is clearly stated later in FS1 that Terran and Vasudan fighters did not have this ability until it was developed conveniently in time to stop the Lucifer...
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As I recall, it only mentioned "our" as in "terran", it never said Vasudans couldn't (and it would be inconsistant if it did, since we see them jumping in and out of the system escorting the Macross).
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As I recall once the fighter sized inter-system technology was acquired it was said that it is installed on every Terran and Vasudan fighter in the fleet or something like that. It's a long time since I played FS1.
But if the Vasudans had the tech all along, it would have been a tremendous tactical advantage over the Terrans and I doubt the T-V war had dragged on as long as it did. And it is doubtful the Vasudans could have kept it a secret for so long. Terrans would have stolen the tech one way or another. And why make such a big deal out of it when the tech is discovered when its old news and Vasudans had it all along? Why would Terrans need Shivan fighters in order to make a breaktrough when Vasudans had the tech as you claim? And finally, why no one never ever mentions during FS1 that Vasudans actually have the tech all along?
Face it. :v: screwed up with Vasudans using inter-system subspace fighters before their time.
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But if the Vasudans had the tech all along, it would have been a tremendous tactical advantage over the Terrans and I doubt the T-V war had dragged on as long as it did.
Beyond being able to send raiding parties behind the lines to disrupt and divert precious terran fleet assets from the front (which is pretty much what they seemed to do in Ross 128), it wouldn't be that big of an advantage, especially considering their compartitively inferior capital ships (except the Typhon, but that only appeared late in the war.)
Btw, what was the exact command briefing about this?
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No, all the months of allies with the Vasudans and we had to come up with the tech by ourselves? :doubt:
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Beyond being able to send raiding parties behind the lines to disrupt and divert precious terran fleet assets from the front (which is pretty much what they seemed to do in Ross 128), it wouldn't be that big of an advantage,
So intelligence gathering isn't useful? Or the ability to project fighter power over multiple systems? Or not having to sent the core of your fleet (destroyer) trough a node in to hostile system but instead cleaning the area first with fighters and bombers?
inferior capital ships (except the Typhon, but that only appeared late in the war.)
So what you're saying is until Typhon appeared, all they had were Atens and kickass freighters?
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That's another reason why I see them having bases of some sort...
unless they had a different type of destroyer which is most likely the answer... Terrans laughed at the design of the destroyer because they built something different than what was accepted to be effective. Comparing Terran Orions to Vasudan XXX.
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So what you're saying is until Typhon appeared, all they had were Atens and kickass freighters?
Inferior =! not have. They probably did have other capital ships, but they were not as effective as their terran counterparts.
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For all the tech descriptions of the Typhon not being able to sustain BVas beam cannons, the Typhon in fact is one of the more powerful destroyers thanks to the fact that they have no beam blindspots and extremely tough armour.
A bit like a destroyer lilith, except for the fact there is no BF Vas. :p
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forgot to reply to this bit:
So intelligence gathering isn't useful? Or the ability to project fighter power over multiple systems? Or not having to sent the core of your fleet (destroyer) trough a node in to hostile system but instead cleaning the area first with fighters and bombers
It does matter, but it would take a lot of fighters and bombers to clean the area given the general suckiness of great war era Vasudan ships. Even in the tech description of the Aten it says very clearly that it is stronger most Vasudan warships, so they must have had other kinds of cruisers which were even worse.
I still think that it evened the score and allowed the war to degenerate into a stalemate. Terrans had stronger ships and better weapons, but the Zods had better propulsion systems. It does even things out if you think about it.
So why didn't they share this tech? Probably because after fighting a major war against the Terrans for 14 years they were not too willing to give up their trump card. It was a big deal when the Terrans figured it out because it was the only way to beat the Lucifer. The PVN was mostly wiped out by that point.
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*skips over several posts*
My theory is that [V] had planned to have more cruiser classes than just the Aten. Their existence is inferred by the Aten's tech description, which says the Aten is the strongest of the Vasudan cruisers.
My guess is one of them was supposed to have a small fighterbay. That, plus periodic blockade runners, would be enough to keep the GTA on their toes through constant raiding.
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Didn't the Aten have a stronger version of it like the Fenris and Cain class cruisers? I just can't remember.
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I suppose the fighters were hiding out till a Vasudan destroyer could arrive and evacuate them. It still doesn't explain why they have 100% hull integrity despite doing "raids" on Terran convoys. It would have made alot more sense if the pilot was sent on a patrol mission and end up having a little skirmish with the Vasudan wings doing their own patrol in the area.
Why can't the Zods fly in shifts like real pilots? Do you really think pilots spend days in the air?
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Didn't the Aten have a stronger version of it like the Fenris and Cain class cruisers? I just can't remember.
No, it didn't.
If the Aten was one of the Vasudans' stronger warships, I can only imagine what their weaker ones would have been like — i mean there are freighters that come close to the Aten in firepower.
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Well, THe Ursa is superior to all cruisers...Hell, the Ursa is practically a one-man cruiser itself
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Is there a model of a small vasudan carrier?
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At first, the Satis was thought to be a warship too, remember? Perhaps the tech description of the Aten was made up before we knew it was a freighter, and it wasn't changed after that due to the laziness of the GTVA :rolleyes:
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At first, the Satis was thought to be a warship too, remember? Perhaps the tech description of the Aten was made up before we knew it was a freighter, and it wasn't changed after that due to the laziness of the GTVA :rolleyes:
They did change it, actually.
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The Aten has 80% more hitpoints than the Fenris.
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It has much weaker weaponry though, and suffers from poor turret placement to an extent. I would rate the Fenris much more effective overall.
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Also the Aten's turret armor is pretty weak.
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Its turrets are small though, and therefore hard to hit. Gaping holes in collision detection also make it take less damage.
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That is only a problem with the high poly version in the media VPs, not the original model. These issues are supposed to be fixed in the 3.6.10 package.