Hard Light Productions Forums
Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => The Modding Workshop => Topic started by: nexiusevaro on February 03, 2008, 09:57:15 pm
-
Hey guys
Anyone have a link or seen any info on the early propulsion system evolution for the terrans? Did a few searches and checked the wikki and I don't see much specific to the history or concept behind engine systems in the fs universe. Playing with a retro model idea and could use some reference info...
thanks!
nex
-
you could try looking at this model
http://hades-combine.com/web/index.php?ind=downloads&op=entry_view&iden=57
might not be official but it could give you something to go on.
-
thats very helpful actually
I have been keeping a pic of the angel up for reference, and the engines on that prototype support what i am trying to do.
In trying to come up with something of my own, i decided to try to do an early Terran fighter with the transitional feel of a mig or sabre. Something retro and still retaining elements that may be necessary for getting into deep space from the surface or fins that are still there, specifically as markers, to help orient pilots who are new to combat in space.
That being said, I'm wondering about how the engines work and came to evolve to what we see "now." Guessing there was a jet technology that then became or was coupled with a new technology for space combat fighters.... was curious if anyone had seen anything on this...
hanx
nex
-
Freespace vessels use fusion drives. Somehow we got from chemical rockets (today) to fusion rockets. It might have been a one-step process, without any intermediates.
-
actually i would imagine ion drives be used before anything remotely like a fusion engine would even be prototyped, thats wat i think anyway
-
Perhaps fusion drives gets read from the fact that terran ships are powered by pile fusion reactors.
-
Really? They are? That's neat. Where did you learn that? I am curious.
There's direct canon confirmation, in a Freespace 2 command briefing on gas miners, that Freespace vessels use fusion drives.
-
I was under the impression there were fusion units driving the power system... have no idea where i got that from though. I was also under the assumption that some sort of fusion system was in place to drive the ships and maybe thrusters to maintain attitudinal control? Just got to thinking about retro ships when reading about the TVWP mod and wanted to play with the idea of making a transitional ship somewhere before the angel. The more i thought about the engine system, the more i realized that i didn't really know much of anything about how it came to pass that ground bound terrans got space worthy.... so I thought i'd ask
thanks responses too btw!
nex
edited for pluralification purposes
-
I also always thought (and still think) of it as a fusion reactor, not a fusion engine...
-
I also always thought (and still think) of it as a fusion reactor, not a fusion engine...
Why not fission?
-
Because a command briefing in Freespace 2 says that the ships of the fleet use fusion drives. There's got to be fusion involved somewhere.
-
Because they say so.
Edit: why did I have to ignore that message-in-red?
-
Fair enough. I stand corrected.
-
Really? They are? That's neat. Where did you learn that? I am curious.
There's direct canon confirmation, in a Freespace 2 command briefing on gas miners, that Freespace vessels use fusion drives.
Fusion could be involved in the power source of the engine system. That's all i was really referring to battuta.
Other than that....GEEEEEEEEZZZZZ wtf?
I have been majorly denounced...oh no the cannon troll.
EDIT: Anyway it seems i'm right as opposed to battuta. Yes fusion drive is misread as a form of transportation as opposed to the power source. Fusion reactor and fusion drive is used interchangeably in freespace.
To go where battuta went i shall go.
To quote from the zephyrus (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/GTG_Zephyrus).
The deuterium gathered by Zephyrus ships powers the fleet's fusion drives.
Here we get the fusion drive entry. And yes even in real world with stuff like hydrogen powered cars you'll have the manufacturer calling it hydrogen propulsion (something similar to calling a fusion reactor a fusion drive). Yet again also similar to star trek with the warp core. The warp core doesn't make the ship go to warp, the warp nacelles do, the warp core is simply a power source to provide energy so that star trek ships can be capable of warp.
To go further than battuta, i found the entry on freespace ship reactors (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Reactor).
The reactor is the heart of any ship in the Freespace universe, providing power to all its systems. Terran and Vasudan reactors are fusion based, and run off deuterium collected by Anuket and Zephyrus gas miners.
There you go. Fusion drive refers to fusion reactor which is a power source.
-
I'm sorry about the 'Where did you learn that? I'm curious'. I actually meant that genuinely; it wasn't sarcasm. It seems like you took offense. I am sorry.
As for the rest, Freespace ships probably do actually use fusion torches as a drive system. What else would they use to move around? 'Fusion drive' really does mean 'fusion drive'.
-
in the command briefing before training simulator 4, the squadron leader of the 107th raven (his name eludes me at the moment) states that the Herc II uses advances in fusion drive technology, which increases speed and maneuverability without sacrificing loadout. So from this we can reasonably say that the fusion "drive" is indeed the propulsion system used. it may refer to the energy system as well but i doubt that as he made no mention of the fusion drive affecting other systems.
-
And yes lets also ignore the second part of information i brought along for ****s and giggles. Which says that the power sources in fs are fusion reactors. Which seems to go along perfectly with gas miners who supply the gases necessary for propulsion of the ships (as in the kind of complete propulsion system...fuel tank and engine). After this it's apparent that gas miners provide the gases necessary for reactors as well. It's just lovely when the reactors in fs tech get a more technical description and basically almost no technical descriptions on the thrusters in game.
-
Um, yes. I read it. I'm really sorry if I'm giving offense here; I'm trying not to.
But in all likelihood if you're going to have a fusion reactor on board your ship you'll also have a fusion torch as a drive system.
What else would you use?
I am afraid I think you're wrong.
-
id say they use fusion driven field emission drive, which is why you dont see any massive propellant tanks (as their using liquid metal as propellant). this explains the blue or green engine glows for the terrans and vasudans. shivans are probably using something entirely different.
-
I was thinking along the lines that a fusion reactor would output electricity to power the rest of the ships systems. Having a fusion reactor on board does not absolutely mean you'll have a fusion torch as a drive system. A fusion reactor puting electricity for the rest of the ships systems nav computer, lasers, communications and radar would be powered by the fusion reactor. You could also power stuff like ion thrusters to be able to drive the ship somewhere (fs doesn't use these but satellites do as an example of an electricity powered propulsion system).
This is where thinking along the lines of a fusion reactor being only a power source and nothing more leads me.
-
But in that case, what would the drive system be?
I'm absolutely fine with there being a fusion reactor powering the vessel. However, it seems unlikely that 'fusion drive' means 'fusion reactor but not fusion drive' rather than 'fusion reactor and fusion drive.'
Nuke, what's a field emission drive? I've never heard of it.
-
I wasn't disputing the fusion drive thingy anymore. Just saying that a fusion drive doesn't necessarily mean that there will be a fusion torch on the other end if you classify a fusion reactor as strictly a power source. And then if you wanted a drive system, it's like i said in my last post you could get ion thrusters.
-
Those would be a lot slower, I think, so you'd be better off with a fusion torch.
I guess we just disagree on terminology. I really do think that 'fusion drive' means 'fusion drive', and the mentions of fusion reactors imply that both are used.
-
But in that case, what would the drive system be?
I'm absolutely fine with there being a fusion reactor powering the vessel. However, it seems unlikely that 'fusion drive' means 'fusion reactor but not fusion drive' rather than 'fusion reactor and fusion drive.'
Nuke, what's a field emission drive? I've never heard of it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field_Emission_Electric_Propulsion
current feep thrusters are only capable of putting out a few milinewtons at present, but it looks like you can scale them up with more power. they do have a small profile and use dense propellant, which uses smaller tanks. you need to have an electron source to keep the ship electrically neutral. some kinds of fusion create an abundance of electrons. this makes feep the perfect candidate of what freespace is using.
-
I'm not convinced it'd be more effective than simply using a fusion drive.
-
The truth is that FS ships use a special engine that doesn't move the ship, but moves the Universe around the ship.
:p
-
That's just like in futurama.
-
quick update
so far the basic design entails 3 fusion reactors in a series. I'm basing the look of these reactors off of the ITER design being worked on currently by the JET folks. Its a torus shaped reactor and there is more info on it here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusion_power
and here : http://www.jet.efda.org/pages/jet-iter.html
I went with three because i'm assuming that although the reactors are scaled down in overall size, they would still lack the efficiency as singles.
Our real life test reactors produce heat which is then converted to electricity via a steam turbine. Assuming a better method of conversion is available in the fs universe, I was thinking of two reactors for engine power and one for subsystem/lifesupport power. Looking it over i think i will go with an ion engine design. The picture in the above link looks like it will look cool as a model/texture.
Very early on, but he's a pic of where it's at... this layout assumes that the fusion power converters are attached to the engines.
thx a ton for the input thus far!
nex
[attachment deleted by ninja]
-
I've visited the JET, and they told me that the bigger a fusion reactor is, the more efficient it works. So - at current level of tech - one big reactor would be way more efficient than 3 smaller ones. I don't know if that will change for the next 300 years.
It does raise an interesting question: where do fighters get their power from? The JET hangar could accomodate 8 Myrmidons (I think), and it's full of equipment. It is, however, not large ( = efficient) enough to provide more energy than you put in it. Have we made that much of technological advance in 300 years? Do fighters run on 'batteries'? Or - dare I say it - have we found out about :nervous: COLD FUSION?
-
Actually I think all GTVA ships are powered by genemodified Hamsters running in wheels, while shivans have evil hamsters and the vasudans use sharks who swim or something......
-
FreeSpaceFreak, wow, getting to check out JET firsthand.... very cool....
I am working through a go at this ship; moving out towards the wings and nose now. Mainly trying to learn blender and chase down this idea I had of a transitional ship with retro feel to it. (I decided to call it the mallard- see pic below as to why.) I thought i'd through post an early version for any input anyone wants to throw out there. New to blender, fs modding, etc. So... here are a few blender questions by the by... silly questions I know... but...
1. Where does my 3d cursor keep disappearing to? (not the translational tool cursor, the other one you use to place new meshes or planes.)
2. Can you bevel an edge or the edges on a single polygon in blender? All i seem to be able to find is a button which starts a process by which the whole model gets beveled.... cool looking and all, but very expensive poly wise and not super useful. I have been extruding and scaling to do it as the bevel function seems nutty... but it's prolly just me...
3. At one point, I had this nifty circle that allowed me to vary the impact of moving a set of vertices had on the surrounding mesh by adjusting the scroll wheel while translating or scaling... That function seems to be gone now and the scroll wheel simply varies the zoom when editing. How did I manage to poof that and how do I get that back again?
I have added in a pair of plasma cannons that dump plasma out of the secondary reactors in bursts. Maybe i will leave the regular guns on the wing tips or just have the cannons and the missile bays instead. I have not run through the boards looking for any plasma weapon posts, but i will take a look later. (Got a feeling there will be a few for some reason.)
I'll post a pic because the ship currently looks very much like a duck. Not sure why, but I like that. I am sure the duckness will continue to dissipate as I work on it more, but I thought the reason for the name should be saved for a posterity, or at least as long as pics are left up here. =)
regards,
nex
[attachment deleted by ninja]
-
heres an updated WIP pic - put a page up on that crappy free spam infested website with a few more pics and some senseless late night typing text
ugg ,,starting to alliterate ... must bed now
Anyone happen to know how you get the vertex paint to show up in the uv window or to export in the tga for reference for painting textures and unwrapping in blender? cant seem find the switch for it .. so...
if anyone knows...that would be cool... gnite all
nex
(http://www.angelfire.com/ak5/nexiusevaro/render3qtr.JPG)
doubt angelfire will let me direct link - but ill try - ill attach it if it blocks it...
-
Out of curiosity, did you use DOGA to make that ship or scratch build?
-
scratch - with an apollo mesh on a separate vis layer to compare basic dimensions, ship orientation, and how parts are separated for fs pofs, etc...
whats DOGA? just curious =)
nex
-
You're fighter reminds me of this plane. Mainly the nose part and sort of set back cockpit.
(http://www.regiamarina.net/arsenals/planes_it/jet/images/campcap1.jpg)
-
Is that a Reggiane Re-2008?
The truth is that FS ships use a special engine that doesn't move the ship, but moves the Universe around the ship.
:p
That's just like in futurama.
Yeah...but what if there's more than one ship using that engine? :lol:
-
One of the ANI's in FS1 had a wireframe view of an Apollo spacecraft. It zoomed in on the engines and labelled various parts of it. If you have FS1 or can get hold of the ANI it may well be worth a look.