Hard Light Productions Forums
Community Projects => The FreeSpace Wiki Project => Topic started by: Grizzly on February 10, 2008, 03:41:32 am
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The title says it all. Mind that it says "they" (Shivans) not "our" (Terrans)
And, as I have posted this topic for a reason, I am going to argue about this.
Because, when Britian's blitz was at its worst the Britons were at their best. As Chruchill said:
If the British Empire lasts for a thousand years, men will still say " This was their finest hour"
I think the same applies for the GTVA, And I also think the mission title was based on the above quote, hence the description on the wiki about the (infamous) mission needs to be changed.
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How can it be GTVA's finest hour when they LOST THE COLOSSUS AND HAD TO ABORT THE MISSION ?
The mission's name means that the Shivans destroyed the biggest "threat" to them, and the GTVA's best weapon.
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Every time I hear the name, I think of an alternate name that was suggested by an ambitious HLP member:
"Their Idiotic Mistake"
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Because, when Britian's blitz was at its worst the Britons were at their best. As Chruchill said:
If the British Empire lasts for a thousand years, men will still say " This was their finest hour"
I think the same applies for the GTVA, And I also think the mission title was based on the above quote, hence the description on the wiki about the (infamous) mission needs to be changed.
The Allen & Unwin(the one who published JRRT's LotR) also published a book called "Their Finest Hour", written by a British WWII pilot. I assume the title comes that quote from S-Churchill, but there might be something interesting in that book. Afterall, Singh found out that names given to missions and warships aren't that casual and are somewhat connected to the history of Britain.
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How can it be GTVA's finest hour when they LOST THE COLOSSUS AND HAD TO ABORT THE MISSION ?
The mission's name means that the Shivans destroyed the biggest "threat" to them, and the GTVA's best weapon.
Forgive me, but you must have missed the whole heroic sacrifice part, so were you playing some other game?
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So it wa the GTVA's finest hour when they lost their best ship? :wtf: :wtf: :wtf:
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The point :v: was trying to make was that the Colossus's crew were great heroes for staying behind in a fight they couldn't win.
:v: failed at actually making this point, IMO.
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No that is not the point.
"Their Finest Hour" was a speech made by Winston S. Churchill after the loss of France to the Germans in WWII. Are you saying that the GTVA are Nazis and the Shivans are the British? Nah, I don't think so.
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Either Snail does not know the actual quote, or -Joshua- truncated the quote badly.
So which is it?
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This subject is hard to argue about because "they" could mean anyone. Of course "they" could mean the Colossus crew, or "they" could be the Shivans. It's just a joke and I think that it should be kept up.
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Or someone separate. Mission names like "The Romans Blunder", "High Noon" and "The Sicilian Defense" aren't strictly connected to the events of the mission.
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Either Snail does not know the actual quote, or -Joshua- truncated the quote badly.
What General Weygand called the Battle of France is over. I expect that the Battle of Britain is about to begin. Upon this battle depends the survival of Christian civilisation. Upon it depends our own British life, and the long continuity of our institutions and our Empire. The whole fury and might of the enemy must very soon be turned on us. Hitler knows that he will have to break us in this Island or lose the war. If we can stand up to him, all Europe may be free and the life of the world may move forward into broad, sunlit uplands. But if we fail, then the whole world, including the United States, including all that we have known and cared for, will sink into the abyss of a new Dark Age made more sinister, and perhaps more protracted, by the lights of perverted science. Let us therefore brace ourselves to our duties, and so bear ourselves that, if the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say, "This was their finest hour."
Yep. Britain's Finest Hour, huh? With France gone and the Luftwaffe coming and all that? Yeah.
Another WWII reference was in the mission before Their Finest Hour, "Dunkerque," where a port was evacuated and then blown up.
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Or someone separate. Mission names like "The Romans Blunder", "High Noon" and "The Sicilian Defense" aren't strictly connected to the events of the mission.
The Romans Blunder refers to the analogy of the NTF (Iceni, Boadicea) as Briton rebels against the Romans, i.e. the GTVA. In this mission the GTVA makes a mistake (i.e. letting Bosch escape.) Whether or not it's actually a mistake is up for debate.
High Noon is a term for a shootout, which is exactly what happens between the Colossus and Sathanas.
The Sicilian Defense is a chess maneuver, which ties into the metaphor of the end of the NTF/GTVA war as a chess game (note 'Endgame'.)
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King's Gambit is also a chess maneuver apparently. Someone did an in-depth analysis of the names of the FS2 missions somewhere around here.
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The Romans Blunder refers to the analogy of the NTF (Iceni, Boadicea) as Briton rebels against the Romans, i.e. the GTVA. In this mission the GTVA makes a mistake (i.e. letting Bosch escape.) Whether or not it's actually a mistake is up for debate.
High Noon is a term for a shootout, which is exactly what happens between the Colossus and Sathanas.
The Sicilian Defense is a chess maneuver, which ties into the metaphor of the end of the NTF/GTVA war as a chess game (note 'Endgame'.)
Mission names are vague(especially in FS1). I can't figure out the connection between the Galatea, the Hellions and The Wheel of Fortune...just to give an example.
I think it's not the case to discuss about "Their" and what it might represent. :v: simply wanted something cool.
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That's silly to say that ":v: just wanted something cool." That's just like saying "I can't be bothered to participate in this discussion and I'll post something stupid to make sure everyone knows."
But it seems obvious to me what the name "Their Finest Hour" means.
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That was an EPIC moment, :v: choose an "equally" epic quote. That makes sense.
How many times mission designers pick up great names for their best missions?
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But the fact that people think it's the GTVA/Allies' greatest hour surprises me because they had just lost the Colossus, their best ship/France, a valuable ally.
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It wasn't the finest hour of the Shivans, either. They weren't facing annihilation and the Colossus wasn't a threat!
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But the Colossus was a nuisance that managed to take down a Sathanas. Surely it must've been great for the Shivans to make a decisive strike and destroy the mean green water gun once and for all.
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It WAS the Shivans'/Nazis' Finest Hour because they just beamz0red/bombed the (arguably/surrender monkeys) largest threat to their plans, the Colossus/France.
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Are you ok? Since when something Made in the GTVA is strong enough to pose a threat? That would be funny... :lol:
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I don't see what's so incredibly hard to understand about this. Churchill's quote refers to his desire for Britain to put up the best fight it possibly could, even if said fight was in vain in the end. They may lose, but they were sure as hell going down fighting tooth and nail to the last man. In the same way, even though the Colossus was overcome, its crew sacrificed their lives to give the Bastion more time and, subsequently, save the human race. It's the classic case of a glorious last stand. That's it, really.
And I fail to see how "La Ruota Della Fortuna" isn't perfectly clear, too. The GTA was trying to take out a Hammer of Light supply depot...and then they find out that said depot has already been destroyed by the Shivans. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend," and all that. The GTA gets saved the work of taking out the HoL base, and they get to bag a few Shivan cruisers in the process. Good fortune, simple as that.
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It WAS the Shivans'/Nazis' Finest Hour because they just beamz0red/bombed the (arguably/surrender monkeys) largest threat to their plans, the Colossus/France.
Is the context totally lost on you? "...that if the British Empire exist for ten thousand years, men will still say 'This was their finest hour!'" So either Churchill isn't great at English or he's talking about the Brits.
Besides, put the other way, it makes no sense. It was the high water mark, the place where the tide turned against.
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Is the context totally lost on you? "...that if the British Empire exist for ten thousand years, men will still say 'This was their finest hour!'" So either Churchill isn't great at English or he's talking about the Brits.
What Churchill meant was that it was the ENEMY'S finest hour even if the Brits exist for a 1000 years. Tell me how it was Britain's finest hour when they just lost France and was about to come under attack from the same foe that had crushed half of Europe and I'll believe you.
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Is the context totally lost on you? "...that if the British Empire exist for ten thousand years, men will still say 'This was their finest hour!'" So either Churchill isn't great at English or he's talking about the Brits.
What Churchill meant was that it was the ENEMY'S finest hour even if the Brits exist for a 1000 years. Tell me how it was Britain's finest hour when they just lost France and was about to come under attack from the same foe that had crushed half of Europe and I'll believe you.
Have you ever heard the phrase "Winning isn't everything?"
Churchill was basically stating that whether or not the British prevailed or not, they ought to put up one hell of a fight. Not because they would necessarily win if they did so, but because there was some inherent value in putting up that fight, and in putting up the best fight possible, and even if they did prevail, they would be remembered for 1000 years for their courage, bravery, and devotion to duty.
Britain, at that time, had watched a number of defeats and I'm not sure if the US had even entered the war yet. So they were facing interminable odds. If Churchill had gone on about actually winning the war, they probably would've thought he had lost his mind (I don't think anybody was that good of a speaker - they'd be twisting reality.) So instead he chose to praise the act rather than the achievement. It's like if you win the race, and you get praised for doing your best. There are sound reasons for that, of course - if you consistently try, you're more likely to do better than someone who slacks off and does a half-assed job. But overall, a lot of people truly think that there is some abstract value in simply putting up a fight or going into something with your entire heart, and that's what Churchill's playing to.
Putting that into the current context, the Colossus was also facing interminable odds. There was clearly no way it could win against the Sathanas. Yet rather than turn tail and flee and desert its post, it chose to go down fighting. Granted, in the context of the mission, it's arguable whether that was truly the best thing to do. But at that point you have 30,000 people sacrificing their lives to at least try to simply buy some time. If that doesn't qualify as attempted heroism, I don't know what does.
That mission is also the last mission where the GTVA engages multiple capships, up to a destroyer, in a straight-out fight and comes out victorious in many cases. The total number of capships destroyed is probably greater than virtually all of the missions in the campaign, save for the blockade one. It's only the Sathanas, which the GTVA had no way of destroying short of a planned surgical op, that wastes the fleet at the jump node. So truly, even though the GTVA force at the node was eliminated, they still did a better job than most of the forces that you saw in the rest of the campaign had, at least in terms of causing Shivan casualties.
I really don't know why people have such a hard time understanding this. There are a lot of TV shows and programmes and movies that outright praise bravery and heroism over the enemy that has the technological advantage and superior forces et cetera. Granted they usually win, but a lot of times they are forced into a situation (much like the GTVA) where they seem to lose, winning is untenable, and they have a small moment of quiet, and then somehow pull a victory out of their ass that they could have only made with the sacrifice of some force in a great battle. There's no reason to expect that the GTVA wouldn't have done something like that, given that it's exactly what happened in FS1.
So overall, I think that both the Churchill quote and the mission name both have the same thing in common, they're praising an act of heroism in a time of almost certain defeat. It's not meant to be ironic in any way.
Or, let me put it in yet another way - how do you motivate someone to fight when they know they're going to die?
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Is the context totally lost on you? "...that if the British Empire exist for ten thousand years, men will still say 'This was their finest hour!'" So either Churchill isn't great at English or he's talking about the Brits.
What Churchill meant was that it was the ENEMY'S finest hour even if the Brits exist for a 1000 years. Tell me how it was Britain's finest hour when they just lost France and was about to come under attack from the same foe that had crushed half of Europe and I'll believe you.
Churchill himself, as well as everyone who studies him, will tell you that you're wrong. Because you're wrong!
Even grammatically, 'their' in 'their finest hour' is referencing 'the British Empire.'
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Okay.
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A full measure of respect for the way you handled that, Snail. I'm impressed.
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A full measure of respect for the way you handled that, Snail. I'm impressed.
Ehh. I know I can be a little overbearing at times, but that seems a bit much. I didn't really set out to make a massive post on the subject, but by the time I'd gotten through all the different ways of explaining it, it had gotten to be massively overgrown.
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A full measure of respect for the way you handled that, Snail. I'm impressed.
I LIKE CHEESE!
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I try not to be a Mobius. :)
Is that what this is all about? :wtf: You asked for an explanation, and I gave you one - many, actually. I didn't mean to be condescending, but I can certainly see how you would read it that way. If you really want to, you can - that's your choice.
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A full measure of respect for the way you handled that, Snail. I'm impressed.
Ehh. I know I can be a little overbearing at times, but that seems a bit much. I didn't really set out to make a massive post on the subject, but by the time I'd gotten through all the different ways of explaining it, it had gotten to be massively overgrown.
Uh, I just meant the way he said 'okay' and admitted he was wrong. Nothing about your post, Coolmon, I thought it was great!
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By "I LIKE CHEESE" I mean, after having 10 people telling me hundreds of reasonable explanations, I end up repeating myself.
edit - oh crap Mobius is online...
edit - oh crap now he's posting!!
edit - phew, he didn't notice.
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And I fail to see how "La Ruota Della Fortuna" isn't perfectly clear, too. The GTA was trying to take out a Hammer of Light supply depot...and then they find out that said depot has already been destroyed by the Shivans. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend," and all that. The GTA gets saved the work of taking out the HoL base, and they get to bag a few Shivan cruisers in the process. Good fortune, simple as that.
That's a forced explanation. I see that program on TV and the best way to explain it is using the expression "do or die". Clash of the Titans II could be named "La Ruota Della Fortuna"...many other missions could have that name.
So overall, I think that both the Churchill quote and the mission name both have the same thing in common, they're praising an act of heroism in a time of almost certain defeat. It's not meant to be ironic in any way.
I agree. There's a reference to acts of heroism in general. British pilots who fought the BoB were heroes. One of them wrote a book called "Their Finest Hour", why don't you read that book and find explanations? We could find interesting coincidences.
Mission names are vague, they refer to something connected to the mission but don't offer specific explanations.
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Uh, I just meant the way he said 'okay' and admitted he was wrong. Nothing about your post, Coolmon, I thought it was great!
Whoops. :o
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And I fail to see how "La Ruota Della Fortuna" isn't perfectly clear, too. The GTA was trying to take out a Hammer of Light supply depot...and then they find out that said depot has already been destroyed by the Shivans. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend," and all that. The GTA gets saved the work of taking out the HoL base, and they get to bag a few Shivan cruisers in the process. Good fortune, simple as that.
That's a forced explanation. I see that program on TV and the best way to explain it is using the expression "do or die". Clash of the Titans II could be named "La Ruota Della Fortuna"...many other missions could have that name.
It's not "forced" at all. The entirety of the mission consists of a stroke of good luck that saves the GTA from having to worry about the HoL outpost. The mission debriefing states as much in no uncertain terms. While it's true that many missions feature sudden situational changes that require updated objectives, La Ruota Della Fortuna was one of the only examples I can think of where the change was to the GT(V)A's benefit. And I don't see how the title works for Clash of the Titans II in the least; that mission had no unexpected twists and nothing to do with luck.
Considering the fact that Singh was able to fill a whole thread connecting mission name references to the events of said missions would suggest that the names aren't "vague" in any sense. The :v: designers knew what they were doing when choosing the names, and many of them contain quite clever historical references.
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I agree...To me, there was always a hidden meaning to the mission name. Some times it's obvious like "A giant in the Mist" Sometimes you have to actually know the term used in the name. And sometimes it takes a little imagination...But that hidden meaning has some conection to the actuall mission
Thanks Lobo...couldnt remember which it was
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"A Monster in the Mist"
Fix0red.
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From the wikipedia entries
Kings Gambit
The King's Gambit is a chess opening that begins:
1. e4 e5
2. f4
White offers a pawn to divert the Black e-pawn and build a stronger center with d2-d4. Theory has shown that in order for Black to maintain the one pawn advantage, moves must be made that seriously weaken the position of the Black pieces.
Sicilian Defence
the reason for the Sicilian Defence’s popularity “is its combative nature; in many lines Black is playing not just for equality, but for the advantage. The drawback is that White often obtains an early initiative, so Black has to take care not to fall victim to a quick attack.
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"I can live with being a pawn if the game makes sense!"
The pawn (♙♟) is the weakest and most numerous piece in the game of chess, representing infantry, or more particularly armed peasants or pikemen.
:D
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:lol:
Hehe, funny...
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It's not "forced" at all. The entirety of the mission consists of a stroke of good luck that saves the GTA from having to worry about the HoL outpost. The mission debriefing states as much in no uncertain terms. While it's true that many missions feature sudden situational changes that require updated objectives, La Ruota Della Fortuna was one of the only examples I can think of where the change was to the GT(V)A's benefit. And I don't see how the title works for Clash of the Titans II in the least; that mission had no unexpected twists and nothing to do with luck.
Considering the fact that Singh was able to fill a whole thread connecting mission name references to the events of said missions would suggest that the names aren't "vague" in any sense. The :v: designers knew what they were doing when choosing the names, and many of them contain quite clever historical references.
I have never excluded the presence of coincidences: I consider pointless discussions like "Their finest hour...is the "they" refered to the Shivans or the GTVA?" that are the result of an exaggerate analysis.
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Exaggerated analysis? There was definite intent behind the naming of these missions.
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Discussing the word "they" and its meaning in the context was exaggerate.
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Yep, it was. Entertaining though. . Has anyone wondered if the missing numbers in the TSM series are meant for non-pilot roles?
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You lol
Non pilot...and non military roles, I think.
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Lol that is exactly the sort of thing i had in mind, i just crashed my roflcopter.
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Whoops, moved it to another thread to keep from derailing this one: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,52358.0.html