Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Mars on March 24, 2008, 05:49:13 pm
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A certain amount of HL-7 bashing in the wiki got me curious. What's your favorite standard weapon in the game?
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:wtf: So... the ML-16, the Avenger and the Subach/Mekhu are "standard weapons"?
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Every other weapon was stated to be special issue.
I guess Prometheus S was standard (looks up) nope.
Prom R was, but I doubt anyone would vote for it, I'll put it up anyway
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Don't bother, the Subach is superior to it at everything.
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The Avenger because it served me so well.
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Double Subach's, especially with the Herc II, can wreck a fighter. Plus, you can divert most of your weapon energy to shields and engines.
And the ML-16 is useless once shields come into play.
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I like the banshee from FreeSpace1 and the mekhu hl7 from it's younger brother.
It changes colour :nod:
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I voted for the Avenger. Please, please no one vote for the ML-16...
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You forgot the Mekhu...
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HL-7 is an all encompassing term
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Oh...
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I like the Mekhu's faster refire rate over the Terran version actually :)
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Yes, and the fact that it does more sustained damage (linked to fire rate) and has slightly more range (not really significantly more though).
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I voted for the Avenger. Please, please no one vote for the ML-16...
But MAN was it fun to blow up poor Anubises, pre shields.
Pair it with a shield-damaging weapon and it was pretty useful. Vote'd for.
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...or use two shield damaging weapons. :)
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HL-7 on an erinyes... erenyes... the fighter that looks like a starfury.
Pwnage.
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I like the HL-7 (preferable Mekhu over Subach), I'll take it over any weapon, basically, since I can't aim for ****.
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I picked the Avenger because (for the time period) it packed a little bit more of a punch than the HL-7 (although I think the stats are very similiar). Seemed more of an assault weapon and less of a spray and pray thing. Of course by FS2 the Avenger is nothing special.
...Prometheus all the way... I know it's "special issue" but it would seem from the way it's "deployed' as the favorite weapon, etc. that the Prometheus would be the standard issue weapon.
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Picked the Avenger by accident...I wanted to vote for the Subach/Mekhu HL-7. Nevertheless, the Avenger still is a good weapon. I think I used it until the original Prometheus came out. :)
I like the HL-7 cannons because my aim is terrible. They also look pretty nice. :drevil:
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Mekhu HL-7 even though I'm not too fond of the Vasudans. A while ago I would've picked the Prometheus R over the rest, until I looked at how much damage it actually did, and reality set in.
Faster refire rate means more hits against fast critters like Dragons or Pegasus fighters... Transcend's ending made me think again and again about the "importance" of ROF, but then again the slow nature of the Hercules was partially to blame...
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In my own mods, the Prom-R, while still noticeably inferior to the Prom-S in nearly all respects, is not the worthless pile of junk that most people are familiar with. I've overhauled it quite blatantly, and am far more used to its utility in that setting than I am with it in canon.
But I'm guessing this poll pertains to canon stats. So, overall then, I prefer the Avenger, given its high hull damage and close-to-Subach-level shield damage.
So for me (with canon stats) it goes Avenger > Mekhu > Subach > Prom-R > ML-16.
Subach used to be #2, but MOTA forced me to become competent with the Mekhu, and I kinda learned to like it and respect its virtues. If any semblance of realism were implemented, and the Avenger became ammo-dependent (it is a modified 45mm autocannon after all) then the Mekhu HL-7 would come out on top.
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The Avenger was good. The first thing that could actually do something to the Shivans. The Prometheus was also good, though fighting Dragons was still easier with the Avenger's faster refire rate.
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Guess what, I voted for the Prometheus R ( and I can tell a difference between the R and S , but still ).
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Heh... the tech description for the Avenger was ripped directly from an article about Phalanax CIWS.
I don't believe a word of it.
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HL-7:
Its the first standard issue cannon you'd use for the entire game. gladly.
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Guess what, I voted for the Prometheus R ( and I can tell a difference between the R and S , but still ).
The R variant is the one you get near the beginning of the campaign. It does less sustained damage than the subach, and is not superior in any other way. The S variant you get later (IIRC in The Sicilian Defense). It does some real damage and has some serious range. It eats more energy than the Subach or the R though. Bottom line is never take Prommy R. Take Subachs instead.
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HL-7:
Its the first standard issue cannon you'd use for the entire game. gladly.
The Avenger is a superior weapon to the HL-7 in pretty much every aspect.
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Start a secondary weapon poll :( i wan't to sing praises to the treb and harpoon :)
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The Avenger is a superior weapon to the HL-7 in pretty much every aspect.
No, both HL-7s have superior antishield damage, fire rate, and energy consumption, tho these advantages aren't very big. The Avenger's real, substantive advantage over the HL-7s is antihull damage.
Heh... the tech description for the Avenger was ripped directly from an article about Phalanx CIWS. I don't believe a word of it.
FS is actually surprisingly internally consistent about what will and will not do damage to shielding and hull materials, with the main deviants from these conventions being the Prom-R and the EMP missile.
Given the Avenger's damage levels -- great against hull, reasonable against shields -- shells charged with radiation and energy (to the point that they glow yellow) seems like a pretty reasonable description, all things considered.
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Avenger because i was so happy to get in in FS I.. it made me feel like god, blowing up all the shivan fighters and all :p
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FS is actually surprisingly internally consistent about what will and will not do damage to shielding and hull materials, with the main deviants from these conventions being the Prom-R and the EMP missile.
Given the Avenger's damage levels -- great against hull, reasonable against shields -- shells charged with radiation and energy (to the point that they glow yellow) seems like a pretty reasonable description, all things considered.
"A rapid-fire, computer-controlled radar and gun system - capable of firing at a rate of more than 4500 rounds per minute - used primarily for close-defense situations - uses closed-loop radar technology to locate, identify, and direct a stream of highly destructive 45mm projectiles to the target."
There doesn't seem to be many reasonable things in that description. I don't think that it was ever used in a close defense situation, there certainly wasn't a radar system, and it definitely wasn't computer controlled. 45mm projectiles??? There must be a bottomless bag of holding somewhere on my fighter... Then you have the totally ridiculous 4500 rounds per minute. :rolleyes:
I think that these points were what Mars was referring to. And I agree, I think Volition found that description somewhere and thought it sounded pretty cool...
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The Avenger is a superior weapon to the HL-7 in pretty much every aspect.
No, both HL-7s have superior antishield damage, fire rate, and energy consumption, tho these advantages aren't very big. The Avenger's real, substantive advantage over the HL-7s is antihull damage.
considered.
The HL-7's shield damage is only slightly better, and hull damage is much higher and generally more important than shield damage anyway.
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Guess what, I voted for the Prometheus R ( and I can tell a difference between the R and S , but still ).
The R variant is the one you get near the beginning of the campaign. It does less sustained damage than the subach, and is not superior in any other way. The S variant you get later (IIRC in The Sicilian Defense). It does some real damage and has some serious range. It eats more energy than the Subach or the R though. Bottom line is never take Prommy R. Take Subachs instead.
Don't need to tell me that, I'm not stupid, I know the difference between the R and S variants. I prefer Prometheus' because of how they look and etc.
I just got used to them
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The Avenger is a superior weapon to the HL-7 in pretty much every aspect.
No, both HL-7s have superior antishield damage, fire rate, and energy consumption, tho these advantages aren't very big. The Avenger's real, substantive advantage over the HL-7s is antihull damage.
considered.
The HL-7's shield damage is only slightly better, and hull damage is much higher and generally more important than shield damage anyway.
If you look at the weapons comparison table, the Avenger and Subach are very close.
The Subach is a lot like an ML-16 modified so it has the SAME punch as the Avenger. It does the same damage / second to pretty much everything, has a faster fire rate, but a slightly slower projectile speed.
If you look at single hit damage you might reach a different conclusion, but fire rate is more importiant to me personally than single hit anti hull damage
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No, the Avenger does around 20% more damage than the Subach.
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| Name | Refire | Velocity | Armor D/S | Shield D/S | Subsys D/S | Energy |
Only against armor, and consiering how many weapons are good against armor in FS2 that isn't importiant (If you're gonna take out a cruiser, Avengers or HL-7 are a bad idea on their own anyway. In Freespace 2 you have the excellent Tempests to fill in the gap, in FS1 all you have are furies.
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All this discussion prompted me to write a new tech description for the Avenger, from a 2360s perspective.
The Avenger is at its heart a heavily modified autocannon, although the then-prototype weapon was rather hastily redesigned to be useful against shields when the Shivans showed up in 2335. Thus the small physical core of the shot is charged with high-energy waste particles from the fighter's reactor, to the point that the shots glow yellow in flight as they shed heat and hard radiation.
The Avenger began to be phased out in favor of the Subach HL-7 primarily due to corporate lobbying, since HL-7 units were more expensive to produce -- and thus far more profitable under government contracting practices -- than the relatively simple and low-cost Avengers. It is comparable in its usage profile to the Subach, albeit with a greater bias towards hull damage.
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Heh... the tech description for the Avenger was ripped directly from an article about Phalanax CIWS.
I wonder what the Avenger's original name was. (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/FreeSpace_Trivia#Renamings[/url)
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That proves it.
The Avenger tech description is a ripoff of the Phalanx CIWS.
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HL-7:
Its the first standard issue cannon you'd use for the entire game. gladly.
The Avenger is a superior weapon to the HL-7 in pretty much every aspect.
But the avenger is short-lived compared to the HL-7. Their Rate of fire alone is big with me, and the fractional energy drain also gives it points above the Avenger.
In my own experience, the Subach outlives the Avenger in campaign. i kicked it to the curb for Prometheus' like i did the ML-16. once the Prometheus comes in, its fairly useless, whereas the subach seems to be a good choice thought the game. Those times where theres that one dragon that you just cant hit on call to knock it out with the Kayser, Spray it with the Subach. guarantee the dragon will run out of shields and hull integrity before you run out of weapon energy.
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Out of curiosity, who besides ShadowGorrath voted for the Prometheus R?
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FS is actually surprisingly internally consistent about what will and will not do damage to shielding and hull materials, with the main deviants from these conventions being the Prom-R and the EMP missile.
Given the Avenger's damage levels -- great against hull, reasonable against shields -- shells charged with radiation and energy (to the point that they glow yellow) seems like a pretty reasonable description, all things considered.
"A rapid-fire, computer-controlled radar and gun system - capable of firing at a rate of more than 4500 rounds per minute - used primarily for close-defense situations - uses closed-loop radar technology to locate, identify, and direct a stream of highly destructive 45mm projectiles to the target."
There doesn't seem to be many reasonable things in that description. I don't think that it was ever used in a close defense situation, there certainly wasn't a radar system, and it definitely wasn't computer controlled. 45mm projectiles??? There must be a bottomless bag of holding somewhere on my fighter... Then you have the totally ridiculous 4500 rounds per minute. :rolleyes:
I think that these points were what Mars was referring to. And I agree, I think Volition found that description somewhere and thought it sounded pretty cool...
Well, that fire rate comes out to about 0.01333333(repeating) seconds between shots...
Someone must edit the tables for the and record the carnage of the Avenger in all it's glory.
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The Avenger sounds like a super Maxim Cannon now that you mention its firing rate...
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Well, would you massive-nerf the damage though? its practically a beam the way its coming out.
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No. Leave it be.
Because that's the proper damage, right? :P
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Like I said the tech description is a complete ripoff from Phalanax CIWS, except they changed it from 25 to 45 mm
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Since i've never played FS I i can't vote for avenger. I don't know what a ML-16 is. The mekhu-hl7 is actually suprising to me in it's power (as with a subach), but it isn't the weapon i choose. I prefer to spend most of my time is something like an ursa, and i use a maxim and a kayser for that (or similar), mostly maxim's though. The promethius retrofit is to me, rubbish. It's basically like a maxim, except worse, and cheaper (i don't look at tables, only the unreliable stats on the in-game weapon that says the maxim does 8 hull and 1 shield, while P-r does 4 hull, and 1 shield), but cheap doesn't mean anything to me. So out of them i'd say the Meckhu-HL7, though i'd rather a kayser and a couple of maxims.
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Since i've never played FS I i can't vote for avenger. I don't know what a ML-16 is. The mekhu-hl7 is actually suprising to me in it's power (as with a subach), but it isn't the weapon i choose. I prefer to spend most of my time is something like an ursa, and i use a maxim and a kayser for that (or similar), mostly maxim's though. The promethius retrofit is to me, rubbish. It's basically like a maxim, except worse, and cheaper (i don't look at tables, only the unreliable stats on the in-game weapon that says the maxim does 8 hull and 1 shield, while P-r does 4 hull, and 1 shield), but cheap doesn't mean anything to me. So out of them i'd say the Meckhu-HL7, though i'd rather a kayser and a couple of maxims.
Go play FSPort.
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Obviosuly, I would rather have Kaysers and maxims.
Those aren't standard weapons. They're specifically stated as special issue, and are used only by "the elite".
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The Maxim isn't so special issue. You get it when you arrive on the GVD Psamtik, in a non-elite squadron.
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Since i've never played FS I i can't vote for avenger. I don't know what a ML-16 is. The mekhu-hl7 is actually suprising to me in it's power (as with a subach), but it isn't the weapon i choose. I prefer to spend most of my time is something like an ursa, and i use a maxim and a kayser for that (or similar), mostly maxim's though. The promethius retrofit is to me, rubbish. It's basically like a maxim, except worse, and cheaper (i don't look at tables, only the unreliable stats on the in-game weapon that says the maxim does 8 hull and 1 shield, while P-r does 4 hull, and 1 shield), but cheap doesn't mean anything to me. So out of them i'd say the Meckhu-HL7, though i'd rather a kayser and a couple of maxims.
Go play FSPort.
I don't want to go through this again, i've tried and can't play FSPort. I have a very old computer (around 9 yrs) and about a 9 gig hard drive. I don't have the ability to play it, as much as i want to.
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The FSPort isn't resource intensive. It works on retail.
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Yeah. If you can get FS2 working on your computer, you can get FSO working as well, just without the MediaVPs. And if you can do that, you can play FSPort, on both FS2 and FSO.
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HL-7:
Its the first standard issue cannon you'd use for the entire game. gladly.
The Avenger is a superior weapon to the HL-7 in pretty much every aspect.
But the avenger is short-lived compared to the HL-7. Their Rate of fire alone is big with me, and the fractional energy drain also gives it points above the Avenger.
In my own experience, the Subach outlives the Avenger in campaign. i kicked it to the curb for Prometheus' like i did the ML-16. once the Prometheus comes in, its fairly useless, whereas the subach seems to be a good choice thought the game. Those times where theres that one dragon that you just cant hit on call to knock it out with the Kayser, Spray it with the Subach. guarantee the dragon will run out of shields and hull integrity before you run out of weapon energy.
The Subach's energy consumption is only slightly less than the Avenger (1.0/sec vs. 1.3). It takes a long time to drain your banks using the Avenger, even on Insane, enough to kill that Dragon several times over. Furthermore, the Avenger is made obsolete by the Prometheus because the Prometheus outdoes the Avenger (and the Subach) in every aspect, without the energy consumption of the Prometheus S. The original Prometheus completely crushes the Subach HL-7.
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Since i've never played FS I i can't vote for avenger. I don't know what a ML-16 is. The mekhu-hl7 is actually suprising to me in it's power (as with a subach), but it isn't the weapon i choose. I prefer to spend most of my time is something like an ursa, and i use a maxim and a kayser for that (or similar), mostly maxim's though. The promethius retrofit is to me, rubbish. It's basically like a maxim, except worse, and cheaper (i don't look at tables, only the unreliable stats on the in-game weapon that says the maxim does 8 hull and 1 shield, while P-r does 4 hull, and 1 shield), but cheap doesn't mean anything to me. So out of them i'd say the Meckhu-HL7, though i'd rather a kayser and a couple of maxims.
Go play FSPort.
I don't want to go through this again, i've tried and can't play FSPort. I have a very old computer (around 9 yrs) and about a 9 gig hard drive. I don't have the ability to play it, as much as i want to.
How on earth can you not run FSPort if you can run FS2? There's no difference in terms of performance. Furthermore, you could buy a much, much better computer than you have now for $300. There is no excuse to having a 9-year-old computer, except maybe being homeless.
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Furthermore, the Avenger is made obsolete by the Prometheus because the Prometheus outdoes the Avenger (and the Subach) in every aspect, without the energy consumption of the Prometheus S. The original Prometheus completely crushes the Subach HL-7.
Not true. The Avenger is superior to the Prom-O in range, and (barely) shield damage. The Subach is superior to the Prom-O in antishield damage. Both of them have higher fire rates and better energy efficiency than the Prom-O (tho the latter advantage is nothing to write home about).
The Prom-O is, first and foremost, an anti-hull cannon. This it does very well. But not all that much better than the Avenger.
And did anyone actually read my rewritten Avenger tech description on the previous page?
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Yes, but I disagree.
It seems likely to me that the Avenger was more expensive to maintain and HL-7s price has gone down since The Great War, after all, it was only said that it was expensive at the time. Considering it's supposed to be the most mass produced weapon ever, I'd say the HL-7 is pretty cheap.
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The Maxim isn't so special issue. You get it when you arrive on the GVD Psamtik, in a non-elite squadron.
IIRC you are in an elite squadron though. Zod squads are usually only numbers, unless they're a really special important squad, then they're named. And you're in the XXth Scorpions, IIRC.
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I do thing the scorps is an elite squadron.
Command would not entrust helioses and taking out the Sathanas's beam cannons to a noob squadron.
"this bomb is worth more than you are. so don't pull the trigger unless you're sure its not going to be intercepted"
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I do thing the scorps is an elite squadron.
Command would not entrust helioses and taking out the Sathanas's beam cannons to a noob squadron.
Hmm... I don't know... it is the Command, after all.
Nah. They must be 1337 somehow.
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Oh...right. I forgot that Command was retarded >.>
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Since i've never played FS I i can't vote for avenger. I don't know what a ML-16 is. The mekhu-hl7 is actually suprising to me in it's power (as with a subach), but it isn't the weapon i choose. I prefer to spend most of my time is something like an ursa, and i use a maxim and a kayser for that (or similar), mostly maxim's though. The promethius retrofit is to me, rubbish. It's basically like a maxim, except worse, and cheaper (i don't look at tables, only the unreliable stats on the in-game weapon that says the maxim does 8 hull and 1 shield, while P-r does 4 hull, and 1 shield), but cheap doesn't mean anything to me. So out of them i'd say the Meckhu-HL7, though i'd rather a kayser and a couple of maxims.
Go play FSPort.
I don't want to go through this again, i've tried and can't play FSPort. I have a very old computer (around 9 yrs) and about a 9 gig hard drive. I don't have the ability to play it, as much as i want to.
How on earth can you not run FSPort if you can run FS2? There's no difference in terms of performance. Furthermore, you could buy a much, much better computer than you have now for $300. There is no excuse to having a 9-year-old computer, except maybe being homeless. #Don't have $300.00 to spare, well i do, but i don't want to spend it on that. $20.00 a month (i'm a kid, not a bum)#
*disregard of that post* I don't have internet either, so unless someones going to, hey look, a thread (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,51805.0.html) where i already tried, i'll make a new one to save digging it up from the prehistoric ages if anyone can be bothered trying me.
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I don't have internet either, so unless someones going to, hey look, a thread (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,51805.0.html) where i already tried, i'll make a new one to save digging it up from the prehistoric ages if anyone can be bothered trying me.
:wtf: You don't has Internetz? And yet you still post here? With phone, maybe? Better yet, if you can has Internetz somewhere, why not download FSPort there and then just use a stick or something to move it to your computer that can not has Internetz. The same goes for FSO, in general.
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Dad's computer (http://www.assaabloy.com/Global/News/Image%20bank/Products/High%20res/Padlock_1308x1811.jpg)
Mum's computer (http://www.nesta.org.uk/img/107/padlock_and_key.jpg), has internet, and with which i go on these forums, but not mine to download anything onto
My computer (http://images.jupiterimages.com/common/detail/74/88/23098874.jpg), but has my games and my stuff on it, including FS2 (which actually came with the computer)
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Dad's computer
Mum's computer, has internet, and with which i go on these forums, but not mine to download anything onto
My computer, but has my games and my stuff on it, including FS2 (which actually came with the computer)
Thank you for the graphical presentation. There's nothing like an actual size 1208x1811 picture in the middle of a thread.
So, I guess you'll need to wait for a few years. Then you can get your own apartment and start downloading stuff. For crying out loud. The Titan syndrome has yet another victim.