Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: achtung on March 27, 2008, 10:35:04 pm
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http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7d9_1206624103 *DEAD (http://blog.wired.com/underwire/2008/03/dutch-film-fitn.html)*
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3369102968312745410 *works*
Be warned, it does contain some fairly graphic scenes.
Overall, it's not as harsh as I expected it to be.
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And Fitna is...
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The Wikipedia entries are funny.
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Fanta = Epic Win...
Oh wait... THIS IS NOT FANTA!!
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So, what was this? It seems Liveleak has pussied out and removed the video due to some threats or something.
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It was that film by that Dutch guy that criticized Islamist beliefs.
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Screw LiveLeak for bowing to threats. That just emboldens the assholes who want to censor free speech.
Weak, man. Weak.
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http://blog.wired.com/underwire/2008/03/dutch-film-fitn.html
How many more times will this **** happen? How long are people going to continue bowing down?
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You would think that the murder of Theoh van Gogh by Islamists would have been a wake up call to the western world, but I guess we will need a few more assassinations before we get the message. :rolleyes:
"That terminator islamist is out there, it can't be bargained with, can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse or fear, and it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead"
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What is the point of this film?
Everybody knows Bush hates the Muslims.
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What does Bush have to do with it? He's not even mentioned once. This was made by a politician in the Netherlands.
Overall, it's not particularly well made. The production values and presentation style are merely competent - it gets the point across. I can appreciate the effort, but it's nothing that hasn't been seen before. Anyone who's interested in getting a bit of a deeper analysis on the role of political Islam is Europe should look elsewhere.
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What is the point of this film?
Everybody knows Bush hates the Muslims.
The point of this film has nothing to do with Bush, but rather to show the world what Islam has really become: a spiteful, hateful religion that wants to destroy all of the progress that has been made in the last century. Not all of them are like that, but a fairly large number of them are. All of these threats that have come about as a result of this film just reinforces the films message.
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I don't think it's what Islam has become, but rather what it always was and truly is. It's simply that Christianity and Judaism have modernized and liberalized to suit modern tastes, while Islam has not, so by comparison it seems archaic and rigid. If Christianity were true to its roots, it would look a lot more like the Muslim fundamentalists than it does now.
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WOOOOO HOLY CRUSADE KILL EM ALL IN THEN AME OF GOD WOOOO JESUS JEEE WOO
blah silly people with religion, there is no god accept it and move on.
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I have no problem with religion.
Churches suck, however, the moment a religion gets organised into some kind of hierarchy, all hell breaks loose (if you'll pardon the pun). You get 'church sanctioned' actions which can completely redefine the religion, till you get to the point where people believe things and they don't even know why. The Church becomes the religion, and that's where it all goes wrong.
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Things like "kill the homos" are present in the holy books of all three Abrahamic religions. It's not as if that were later perversion by the Church. And while there are certainly imams out there, giving out shady proclamations, most of the issues that Wilders and others have with Islam are to do with its fundamental precepts, not this or that interpretation. Like I said, Christianity would be a hell of a lot scarier and more offensive to the modern man if its original doctrines were obeyed.
Thankfully, mixing wool and cotton is no longer a stoneable crime. ;);)
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I don't think it's what Islam has become, but rather what it always was and truly is.
At one brief point it wasn't like this, but ultimately it devolved into what it is today.
A friend of mine asked me a few months ago if she should study spanish or arabic, I told her spanish because unless there are drastic reforms both socially and economically, arabic speaking countries don't have much of a future. Most of their people want to stay in the 7th century, and so the rest of us will move on into the 21st and leave them even farther behind.
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The fear is that they'll drag us down with them
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The fear is that they'll drag us down with them
If they try, then the UN will hopefully grow some balls.
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and do what invade em? we should ivade USA and nuke it, not necci in that order :)
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Obvious troll is obvious. :)
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I see a certain amount of oblivious arrogance in the way Westerners blame religious dogma for Islamic fanaticism. The West is very proud of itself for demonstrating how religion can be reconciled with modernity, and in our typical fashion, we stand atop our mountain of accumulated resources and say, "Why can't you guys just do what we did?" It doesn't even cross our minds that maybe poor people with ****ty lives, in whose woes we've had a significant hand, aren't going to be doing as much meditation on the metaphysical nuances of their faith as, say, the Sufi poets. Islam looks so ugly because it's being used as a tool of solidarity among people who see themselves as having been wronged by the West. To what degree that's true is, of course, another discussion, but regardless, when we react to Islamic fanaticism by pontificating about the defects of the religion, we're really just putting our hands over our ears and screaming, "LA LA LA LA!"
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I see a certain amount of oblivious arrogance in the way Westerners blame religious dogma for Islamic fanaticism. The West is very proud of itself for demonstrating how religion can be reconciled with modernity, and in our typical fashion, we stand atop our mountain of accumulated resources and say, "Why can't you guys just do what we did?" It doesn't even cross our minds that maybe poor people with ****ty lives, in whose woes we've had a significant hand, aren't going to be doing as much meditation on the metaphysical nuances of their faith as, say, the Sufi poets. Islam looks so ugly because it's being used as a tool of solidarity among people who see themselves as having been wronged by the West. To what degree that's true is, of course, another discussion, but regardless, when we react to Islamic fanaticism by pontificating about the defects of the religion, we're really just putting our hands over our ears and screaming, "LA LA LA LA!"
This is a very common misconception. While religion certainly has been and still is an excuse for violence - used by those evil enough to gain authority (these are the people who DO really hate the West, since it is the West who shut down dictators and others who use violence/corruption as a means) I've lived around Islam long enough to know that the majority of the fanatics are driven by their Religion more-so than their indoctrinated hate of the West. In the end, their hate for the west has embedded itself in their religion. They see the west as blasphemers and completely evil - basically because of the way the western culture lives: Christianity / Atheism / immorality / and a lack of general Islamic values. It is not so much that they feel wronged (of course there are those who do) but the hate comes from their line of thought that the west is trying to conquer Islamic values with evil western culture. The "being wronged by the west" is more of a cold war communist propoganda relic. The Islamic and Christian religions are really not so different at their core. The main rule of each is to "love your neighbor as you love yourself." The problem stems from the doctrines slowly being twisted to suit those elected to power. They set themselves up as the only ones with the right and power to interpret the canon (or scripture) for the masses. Fanatical Islam is in a problem right now, because at large, nobody has the freedom to interpret for themselves for fear of death, much like it was for Christianity millennia ago. What adds more to the problem is the degree to which the populace is being indoctrinated with the jihad message. They are taught from an extremely young age to hate the West. It -is- their religion. Twisted quite a bit, but it is what they are indoctrinated with.
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I see a certain amount of oblivious arrogance in the way Westerners blame religious dogma for Islamic fanaticism. The West is very proud of itself for demonstrating how religion can be reconciled with modernity, and in our typical fashion, we stand atop our mountain of accumulated resources and say, "Why can't you guys just do what we did?" It doesn't even cross our minds that maybe poor people with ****ty lives, in whose woes we've had a significant hand, aren't going to be doing as much meditation on the metaphysical nuances of their faith as, say, the Sufi poets. Islam looks so ugly because it's being used as a tool of solidarity among people who see themselves as having been wronged by the West. To what degree that's true is, of course, another discussion, but regardless, when we react to Islamic fanaticism by pontificating about the defects of the religion, we're really just putting our hands over our ears and screaming, "LA LA LA LA!"
While they do have SOME legitimate historical grievances, I think it goes farther than that. Take for example Islamic societies' attitudes towards science: They are more than happy to use technology, but they are not willing to support the scientific research needed to make better technology themselves. Why? They are afraid of science, they are afraid it will undermine their religion. Their solution was "islamic science", which is doing such activities as finding the chemical composition of the heavenly djinnis. You know in Pakistan if you wanted to "calculate the temperature of hell", you could get a grant to do it.
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I see a certain amount of oblivious arrogance in the way Westerners blame religious dogma for Islamic fanaticism. The West is very proud of itself for demonstrating how religion can be reconciled with modernity, and in our typical fashion, we stand atop our mountain of accumulated resources and say, "Why can't you guys just do what we did?" It doesn't even cross our minds that maybe poor people with ****ty lives, in whose woes we've had a significant hand, aren't going to be doing as much meditation on the metaphysical nuances of their faith as, say, the Sufi poets. Islam looks so ugly because it's being used as a tool of solidarity among people who see themselves as having been wronged by the West. To what degree that's true is, of course, another discussion, but regardless, when we react to Islamic fanaticism by pontificating about the defects of the religion, we're really just putting our hands over our ears and screaming, "LA LA LA LA!"
While they do have SOME legitimate historical grievances, I think it goes farther than that. Take for example Islamic societies' attitudes towards science: They are more than happy to use technology, but they are not willing to support the scientific research needed to make better technology themselves. Why? They are afraid of science, they are afraid it will undermine their religion. Their solution was "islamic science", which is doing such activities as finding the chemical composition of the heavenly djinnis. You know in Pakistan if you wanted to "calculate the temperature of hell", you could get a grant to do it.
Ironically it was Islam that protected Greek philosophy and science that influenced the renaissance movement.
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Things like "kill the homos" are present in the holy books of all three Abrahamic religions. It's not as if that were later perversion by the Church. And while there are certainly imams out there, giving out shady proclamations, most of the issues that Wilders and others have with Islam are to do with its fundamental precepts, not this or that interpretation. Like I said, Christianity would be a hell of a lot scarier and more offensive to the modern man if its original doctrines were obeyed.
Thankfully, mixing wool and cotton is no longer a stoneable crime. ;);)
True, but most people don't bother about stuff like that without some kind of institution egging them on. That's what happened in much of the West, as the habit of attending Church every Sunday died down, so did the more extreme opinions being given out by the institution itself, they tried to 'modernize', to adapt to the softer way of life in the West when compared to the East, and tried to become your buddy. Because we in the West have free leisure to consider ethics like 'Freedom of Expression', we've not had much reason to need a God, as it were. That's why I'm not really surprised that this whole Fiasco turned into a theological war as much as a military one, and why you are seeing an uprising in the influence of fundamentalist thinking on both sides. The 'Jesus' Lamb' approach only works while there's nowhere to aim the fire and brimstone.
Without the Church to keep reminding people that 'homo's are evil' or to 'kill the infidel', most people would ignore the existence of those lines, just as most people ignore the more aggressive content of the Old testament.