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Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Herra Tohtori on April 09, 2008, 06:03:30 am

Title: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: Herra Tohtori on April 09, 2008, 06:03:30 am
Sooo... yeah. A fundamental polygamist sect of mormons (or rather, an independent splinter group - elaborated for great justice) has been running a little world of their own for several years. Basically these people are born into the cult, raised in the cult with minimal outside influences, a number of boys are dumped away to keep the male-female ratio suitable for the men considering the polygamy, and forcing 13-year-olds to marry and have kids with the men of the colony. Thus far the authorities have taken over 400 children into custody and 133 women who left the ranch from their free will.

Quote from: Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/07/AR2008040700273.html?hpid=topnews)
Texas authorities investigating allegations of abuse and the forced marriage of young teenagers to much older men have taken more than 400 children into custody from a remote ranch owned by a polygamist religious sect, authorities said Monday.

The children were joined by 133 women, in homemade ankle-length dresses, who departed voluntarily. While investigators questioned them, state police detained the men who live at the Yearning for Zion Ranch, which is affiliated with sect leader Warren Jeffs. He was convicted last year of being an accessory to the rape of a 14-year-old girl.

The court-ordered sweep of the 1,700-acre property near Eldorado, Tex., nearly 200 miles northwest of San Antonio, continued into the night Monday, four days into a raid described as the largest single child-welfare operation in state history.

"We didn't know there would be this many children, and we don't know how many more there are," Marleigh Meisner, a Child Protective Services spokeswoman, told the Dallas Morning News.


Neverland has been surpassed. :shaking:
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: Windrunner on April 09, 2008, 06:10:36 am
Just another idiotic fundementalist/apocalypse cult. I feel sorry for the young women there.

Every cult where women are not treated as equal as men should be banned from existing.
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: karajorma on April 09, 2008, 06:25:47 am
Am I the only one who on reading the title wondered if they found a stash of powerthirst (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRuNxHqwazs)? :p


Seriously though you do have to wonder how many of these wacky cults there are in the US. You hear about one every couple of years but you do have to wonder how many of them keep their heads down sufficiently to not be noticed.
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: Rictor on April 09, 2008, 06:48:35 am
Damnit, I'm going to found a polygamous cult! And then I'll be able to say that groping teenage girls is totally God's word, and the state had better not oppress me. Sure, I'll still go to jail, but as a pseudo political prisoner rather than just your average pervert.

If only Jim Jones had written a how-to book, it would save a lot of time..
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: Turambar on April 09, 2008, 06:51:55 am
*touches his christmas-light covered portrait of Gaius Baltar*
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: Herra Tohtori on April 09, 2008, 06:53:28 am
Do you feel God's presence?
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: Colonol Dekker on April 09, 2008, 07:02:38 am
Movementarians for the win.......................


NaNaNANaNANA Leader!!
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: Mefustae on April 09, 2008, 07:21:48 am
Quote from: Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/07/AR2008040700273.html?hpid=topnews)
The children were joined by 133 women, in homemade ankle-length dresses, who departed voluntarily.
This is what happens when you skimp on low-protein gruel. Their resistance isn't going to wear down itself!
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: Getter Robo G on April 09, 2008, 07:28:38 am
What Gaius was really thinking, *Tell God to wait a moment I'm feeling these titties!*
"Oh yeah I feel it", in my pants...  ;7

Now as primarily a player of Paladins, since when does the "laying on hands" equal outright groping?
Next time I'm gonna worship a Love God and coop a feel during blessings!
Thanks to Baltar I have seen the light!  :lol:
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: Admiral_Stones on April 09, 2008, 12:51:35 pm
YOU PLAY WoW?

I can not find any words for your shameful existence, and if I would find, I shall better not speak them.
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: MP-Ryan on April 09, 2008, 01:46:13 pm
That particular sect extends through several US states and into at least one Canadian province.  This is just the tip of the iceberg.
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: Admiral_Stones on April 09, 2008, 02:29:29 pm
What, the Blizzard sect?
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: Getter Robo G on April 09, 2008, 04:38:39 pm
YOU PLAY WoW?

I can not find any words for your shameful existence, and if I would find, I shall better not speak them.

Um, no... I've played a Paladin (about 25 years- probably longer then most of you have been alive, figure it out) in the character development sense, not mindless level grinding.

I find it shameful you would jump to a conclusion a CRPG could be primary over face to face across teh table where Body language and tone of voice add tot eh immersion or "Role Playing".

Roll for initiative!  :lol:

Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: Mars on April 09, 2008, 06:22:11 pm
The really horrible thing is that there have  probably been several generations of children (the girls start at 13) living in this environment where polygamy, pedophilia, and abuse is utterly normal
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: Herra Tohtori on April 09, 2008, 06:44:12 pm
The really horrible thing is that there have  probably been several generations of children (the girls start at 13) living in this environment where polygamy, pedophilia, and abuse is utterly normal

What, you mean Saudi-Arabia?

Patriarchal fundamental religions tend to do that to people, to varying extent.
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: Nuclear1 on April 09, 2008, 07:39:21 pm
That's actually the sort of thing that gets either party (usually the female) killed and/or mutilated in Saudi Arabia.
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: Sphynx on April 09, 2008, 07:41:49 pm
To be accurate, it is not correct to call members of the FLDS sect Mormons. They are a splinter group that broke off from the Mormon church over a hundred years ago, I believe. The Mormon church does not have any affiliation with Warren Jeffs and the FLDS, nor do the FLDS and Warren Jeffs have any affiliation with the Mormon Church. The writing guide for the Associated Press states that only members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are correctly called Mormons. Other groups that have broken off at various times are not accurately labeled Mormon.

That being said, I have had the opportunity to visit several of these FLDS communities in Utah and Arizona. It was a very sad experience. Most of these people are sincere, if simply by the fact that this is all they have been taught from childhood. The conditions and the heirarchy, though, are stifling. Men who disagreed with the leadership in any way often lost their property, their wives, their children, and sometimes even their lives. Many young boys were simply thrown out and left to try to survive on their own as a part of recent "cleansing" activities.

My greatest concern is for these children placed in foster care. Their transition to life outside the compound will be very rocky, I'm afraid. I'll be eager to hear how things go and my best thoughts and wishes are extended to them.
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: redsniper on April 09, 2008, 11:44:13 pm
To be accurate, it is not correct to call members of the FLDS sect Mormons. They are a splinter group that broke off from the Mormon church over a hundred years ago, I believe. The Mormon church does not have any affiliation with Warren Jeffs and the FLDS, nor do the FLDS and Warren Jeffs have any affiliation with the Mormon Church. The writing guide for the Associated Press states that only members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are correctly called Mormons. Other groups that have broken off at various times are not accurately labeled Mormon.
Being a Mormon myself, I'd just like to say thanks for saving me the trouble of pointing this out.

On topic, how much do these kids even know of the outside world? As I understand it, these cult compounds tend to be pretty self-contained. I would think you could be born and live your whole life there without seeing anything outside the grounds amirite?
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: MP-Ryan on April 10, 2008, 01:56:23 am
On topic, how much do these kids even know of the outside world? As I understand it, these cult compounds tend to be pretty self-contained. I would think you could be born and live your whole life there without seeing anything outside the grounds amirite?

This particular sect does allow their follows out from time to time.  Bountiful, located south of Creston B.C. is an affilifate of the FLDs and it is a fairly common occurrence to see 16-20 year old girls with 2-5 kids in tow in town or at the border.

Unfortunately, the RCMP have had very little luck pushing criminal charges against any of the members in Canada yet, despite years of investigation.  Getting Jeffs was an important step though, and hopefully some of the other leaders will follow right after him.
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: Admiral_Stones on April 10, 2008, 07:23:40 am
YOU PLAY WoW?

I can not find any words for your shameful existence, and if I would find, I shall better not speak them.

Um, no... I've played a Paladin (about 25 years- probably longer then most of you have been alive, figure it out) in the character development sense, not mindless level grinding.

I find it shameful you would jump to a conclusion a CRPG could be primary over face to face across teh table where Body language and tone of voice add tot eh immersion or "Role Playing".

Roll for initiative!  :lol:



Oh, DnD? Good boy *patsgetterrobogonhishead*
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: Goober5000 on April 21, 2008, 10:36:29 am
So after nearly two weeks of this, nobody has turned up any evidence of abuse, nobody has been charged with anything, and it turns out that the phone call that precipitated the whole incident was a hoax.

It's rather upsetting to read the previous comments in this thread.  Aren't you guys familiar with "innocent until proven guilty"?  What happened here is unconscionable: The U.S. government invaded a society on the flimsiest of pretexts and kidnapped all the children!

Stop congratulating yourself that you're "more civilized" than the FLDS church and look at this through unbiased eyes.  No matter what your opinion of them (and I don't particularly agree with them myself) you need to recognize that this was, and continues to be, a gross miscarriage of justice.
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: Colonol Dekker on April 21, 2008, 11:06:19 am
Could be worse..............

Not sure how, I agree with Goob. But it doesn't directly affect me in any way and without sounding uncaring, i feel very little towards them.


Sympathy where sympathy's due though.
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: Goober5000 on April 21, 2008, 11:16:28 am
But it soesn't directly affect me in any way and without sounding uncaring, i feel very little towards them.
:sigh:

See, this is one of the problems.  (Not to single out the Colonol; it's a common sentiment.)  "First they came for the FLDS church, and I did not speak up because I [was not a member of / philosophically disagreed with] the FLDS church."
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: TrashMan on April 21, 2008, 11:19:13 am
Stop congratulating yourself that you're "more civilized" than the FLDS church and look at this through unbiased eyes.  No matter what your opinion of them (and I don't particularly agree with them myself) you need to recognize that this was, and continues to be, a gross miscarriage of justice.


Is it? I wonder...
Note the marked word. Justice.
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: NGTM-1R on April 21, 2008, 02:17:30 pm
Stop congratulating yourself that you're "more civilized" than the FLDS church and look at this through unbiased eyes.  No matter what your opinion of them (and I don't particularly agree with them myself) you need to recognize that this was, and continues to be, a gross miscarriage of justice.

Would you prefer prevention, or cure?
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: Nuclear1 on April 21, 2008, 02:29:47 pm
Stop congratulating yourself that you're "more civilized" than the FLDS church and look at this through unbiased eyes.  No matter what your opinion of them (and I don't particularly agree with them myself) you need to recognize that this was, and continues to be, a gross miscarriage of justice.


Is it? I wonder...
Note the marked word. Justice.

...and yet the only people victimized it turns out was the FLDS sect.  The US government acted right with the knowledge it had at the time, but the original casus belli with the FLDS sect turned out to be a hoax.

So in the end I both agree and disagree with Goober: had the US government simply acted to shut down the FLDS sect, then this would be a gross miscarriage of justice.  However, the US government acted to protect children it believed were being abused, according to the phone call.

In all, it turned out to be a hoax where neither the government nor the sect is to blame.  The anonymous tipster is truly the only one at fault.
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: MP-Ryan on April 21, 2008, 06:30:34 pm
So after nearly two weeks of this, nobody has turned up any evidence of abuse, nobody has been charged with anything, and it turns out that the phone call that precipitated the whole incident was a hoax.

It's rather upsetting to read the previous comments in this thread.  Aren't you guys familiar with "innocent until proven guilty"?  What happened here is unconscionable: The U.S. government invaded a society on the flimsiest of pretexts and kidnapped all the children!

Stop congratulating yourself that you're "more civilized" than the FLDS church and look at this through unbiased eyes.  No matter what your opinion of them (and I don't particularly agree with them myself) you need to recognize that this was, and continues to be, a gross miscarriage of justice.


Sorry Goober.

As it happens, I'm quite familiar with the FLDs through my law enforcement background and they are, to put it mildly, guilty as hell but playing the system.  Young women in the sect in canada are impregnated as young as 14 by men several times their age.  These women are often "imported," illegally, from the US.  When Immigration does eventually catch up to them, despite the fact that polygamist marriages are not recognized the women are often allowed to remain because they now have a Canadian child.

The families are patriarchal, often with a single "senior" wife, who regulates the sexual companionship for all the other "wives" in the family group.  A single man may have several dozen children, all through different mothers, many of whom he doesn't know.  The mothers are provided with a meagre stipend to support the children.  Young mean are often forced to leave the colonies to provide a suitable male/female ratio to support the polygamist lifestyle.

You want an eyeopener, do a little research on a place called Bountiful in british Columbia.  Arguably, it has the most written about the sect due to repeated law enforcement and media inquiries, but remains largely mysterious.  The few women that have escaped the sect are generally threatened into silence or refuse to testify for fear of the sect's leaders.  Warren Jeffs, the most significant, is now behind bars but several of his lesser cronies are just as bad as he is.

So you can say we're juding without evidence all you like, but the fact of the matter is that this is a sect where the slavery and subjugation of women is practised as a daily phenomenon and allowed to continue through the propagation of fear and violence.  Larger society has completely failed the women in the FLD sect and continues to do so.  Law enforcement is largely helpless without witnesses willing to testify, which are rare.  It took decades to finally convict Jeffs, and that was all due to one brave girl who stood up.

The only miscarriage of justice is the continuing failure of Western legal systems to protect women and children from systematic subjugation and abuse perpetrated under the protection of freedom of religion.  Sorry, but I have no problem condeming this sect whether or not this particular batch of allegations have been found to be true.
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: Herra Tohtori on April 21, 2008, 07:36:41 pm
Indeed this is a difficult matter and we're sailing on murky waters here...

Quote from: H.L.Mencken"
The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.

Even though I don't agree with many of the other things this particular gentleman wrote, this quote hits the nail on head. Unfortunately. Good and evil do not always translate directly to right and wrong...

If legislation offers loopholes for deviant sects to exploit, it's not really acceptable for a government to work against their own laws. If that's the case, change the legislation so there's no more loopholes. It might be difficult, though.


Personally, I don't see what the problem is in not getting this Super Adventure Club out of commission. What is it exactly that makes it non-punisheable for these people to marry and have sex with 13-year-olds, or underage girls in general, and abandon the required 2/3rd of boys so that every man can have at least the required three wives? It can't be a matter of not being able to prove it. So is it unwillingness to gather the evidence then?

Another fundamental question arises: Should the decisions of a brainwashed, legally adult cult member be respected or should they be, so to speak, "saven from themselves"? It's pretty probable that many in the cult really see nothing wrong in the daily life, but if they are of age, it's not really anyone else's business as long as there's no crimes committed, no matter how twisted the ideology may seem to normal people. So it seems the actual question is, should children be allowed to be brainwashed?

That in turn is even more tricky question, because it translates to who has the right to be a parent, and what kind of belief systems are correct for a child to grow in.

It would seem that to solve this problem, a law would be needed that disallows people who have strong ideological commitment to ideas that contain illegal elements, from raising children.

It's of course obvious that this kind of legislation would never really work out and it would either simply not be enforced, or it would be really easily misused and it would turn the country into child concentration camps where the Right Ideology, Ethics and Morals would be taught to children, away from their deviant, communist, terrorist, fundamentalist parents.


Being obvious that this kind of approach doesn't really work no matter how much people in mainstream society would just want to help, what other choices are there? One thing that comes to mind is making it more difficult fot cult organizations to survive. Divida et conquera, as they say. Revoking the tax exempt status from all religions that don't really contribute to general community would be a brilliant step to right direction in my opinion. It would make it that much more difficult for all cult leaders to operate - of course, for cults such as FLDS it would have much less of an impact than it would have on, say, Church of $cientology, but it would affect them too, I'm quite sure.

Aside from that... I've got pretty much nothing. Oh, I know. Enforcing children to go to actual schools and tightening the parametres of acceptable homeschooling (ie. you need some pretty good criteria for being allowed to be homeschooled). If you make the children have normal contact with normal people and learn normal social and academic skills, they not only might have an option to leave the cult without ending up as hobos and castaways in mainstream society, but they also might have the incentive to do so.

These might be a good way to, so to speak, enturbulate the cult leaders in their comfy little lifes filled with schemes.
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: Goober5000 on April 21, 2008, 09:05:45 pm
That's an excellent Mencken quote, HT, I hadn't heard it before. :yes:

And it applies very well to this situation.  Whatever your opinion of the FLDS church in general, or Warren Jeffs or any of his cronies in particular, doesn't excuse the wrongs the government is perpetrating upon them.  They're collecting DNA samples from all these people against their will; they're violating due process in taking away their kids; they invaded the compound on absolutely no solid evidence.

And don't say that it's okay because there "might have been" abuse.  That's a dangerous ends-justify-the-means argument that opens up far too many cans of worms.  One could just as easily say that Unit 731 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731) was justified because the end result was a better understanding of anatomy and physiology.

Suppose the government invaded a Muslim compound because the parents were teaching their kids that they could marry up to four wives.  Or a Hindu compound because they were teaching their kids it's okay to worship more than one god.  Or an atheist compound because the parents were teaching their kids that the public-school-approved intelligent design curriculum was hogwash?
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: MP-Ryan on April 21, 2008, 09:41:03 pm
Suppose the government invaded a Muslim compound because the parents were teaching their kids that they could marry up to four wives.  Or a Hindu compound because they were teaching their kids it's okay to worship more than one god.  Or an atheist compound because the parents were teaching their kids that the public-school-approved intelligent design curriculum was hogwash?

This problem with this sect is not what parents are teaching their kids.  It's parents allowing priviledged men to take their barely pubescent daughters into relationships of subjugation and slavery and then keep them there by impregnating them literally as often as biologically possible.  These young women become nothing more than breeding machines - their sole purpose in life being to produce offspring for their husband.

My problem isn't teaching that polygamy is OK.  For that matter, I think if knowing adults willingly consent to polygamous relationships then they can go for it.  My problem is that these children have no legal right to consent to such relationships, and over and above that frequently are forced into it with no say at all.  There is coercion, violence, and fear at the heart of the entire system.

The "slippery slope" argument does not apply here because this is not censorship of belief so much as a censure of actions.  These things are happening, and we are doing nothing.  The laws protect the abusers and the powerful.  The victims are voiceless and born directly into a system which they can literally do nothing to change.  If anything, the persistence of the FLD sect and its abuses towards young women is a sad commentary on how governments and law enforcement have failed to decisively act, mainly because they fear a legal challenge against polygamy laws on the basis of freedom of religion.  The price of that fear is the domination of an entire gender in a small religious sect.  The problem isn't polygamy - the problem is one of powerlessness and the powerful.  Guess who's winning.

Like I said, read up on the FLDs.  They're something else.
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: Stealth on April 22, 2008, 10:40:21 am
just goes to show... when it comes down to it, it doesn't matter what laws, 'rights', etc. the government's set in place... they mean pretty much nothing.

they're just there to let people have a false sense of security
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: Sphynx on April 23, 2008, 09:27:50 am
This is a complex situation.

Clearly, there are years' worth of evidence that underage girls were being forced (or at the very least, given no choice) about marrying much older men and carrying on sexual relations with them. This has not been kept secret at all by the FLDS Church. Anyone who has lived near one of their communities or done business with one of their communities can testify to this (heck, I've seen it personally... well, not them having sex, but pregnant young girls who have been spiritually married to older men). This is in conjunction with a large number of young boys being abandoned (and essentially left to fend totally on our own, if others had not taken in The Lost Boys, as they are known), and several other practices that are alarming. So, it is probably past time for someone to really look in to what is going on there and not turn a blind eye to some of the more worrisome dynamics.

On the other hand, the reason stated for the raid does seem to be pretty flimsy, so Goob has got some points there. Even though what is going on in FLDS communities clearly is (and has been) in violation of law for decades, the reasons stated for the State of Texas acting in the way it did are indeed questionable by the standard of the law itself.

This may be a case of the right sort of thing (I am not sure how I feel about all the details yet, but some action being taken is probably called for) happening, but for the wrong reasons and following a questionable process.
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: Scuddie on April 24, 2008, 11:28:47 am
This may be a case of the right sort of thing (I am not sure how I feel about all the details yet, but some action being taken is probably called for) happening, but for the wrong reasons and following a questionable process.
Does that mean it shouldn't be done?  I sure as hell hope not.
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: Sphynx on April 24, 2008, 11:57:02 am
Well, I see it more this way. It is probably past time for something to be done. There have been plenty of times where there has been legitimate cause, and nothing has been done. Does something need to be done? Yes, I would say. It is just a pity that when something has finally been done, it has been done in this particular way, with the compelling action being cited as the reason being so difficult to verify.

As I said, there have been so many reasons. When Lost Boys started showing up, abandoned and hungry, something probably should have been done. When women have left and told stories about being forced to have polygamous marriages and sexual relationships with significanlty older men while they were underaged (by law, statuatory rape plain and simple), something should have been done. The testimonies and please of each of these individuals shoul dhave been enough... but nothing was done. They were there, they were verifiable, but nothing was done. I lived close to some of these communities. I met some of these people. They begged for action to be taken, but nothing happened. There have been more than enough reasons for decades now to look into what is going on there in a serious way. Now when they finally move, it is because of a source that no one can verify. That is hard irony at the very least.

I don't know if I have clarified my point of view or muddied the waters. :)
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: TrashMan on April 24, 2008, 12:49:05 pm
Sometimes justice needs a push.

I don't care if his time the grounds for action were shaky - fry the bastards!
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: MP-Ryan on April 29, 2008, 02:54:53 am
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/28/polygamist.retreat.ap/index.html?eref=rss_latest

I'd suggest that anyone opposing the State's actions in this case take a good long read of that article.
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: Goober5000 on April 29, 2008, 09:19:38 am
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/28/polygamist.retreat.ap/index.html?eref=rss_latest

I'd suggest that anyone opposing the State's actions in this case take a good long read of that article.
Let's use your own logic then.  If half of the teenage girls were not pregnant and were not abused, then what rationale can be claimed for removing that half from their home, their parents, and their livelihood without due process of law?

Heck, even with the half that they say are being abused, nobody's following due process.  They're just ordering people around.  "Detain them all and then figure out who's breaking the law" is exactly the wrong approach.  Never mind that these are still allegations; nobody has been charged.  This is the same overreach that gets everybody upset about Guantanamo.
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: Sphynx on April 29, 2008, 09:21:07 am
These are both points I was making. They have made little to no effort to hide this. I myself have witnessed these pregnant young FLDS girls in public, where anyone could see them. Like I said, there is, in mind, definitely reason for intervention. I have no qualms about that. It is the way in which the state of Texas has mounted operations in a sloppy manner that arguably runs afowl of some consitututional issues that gives me pause.

I am in favor of intervention, but somewhat unsettled with how it has been done, especially because it means that any of the good that may have come from this could potentially be undone due to legal reasons. I believe that the rule of law is essential to civilization, and that for too long a blind eye was turned. But when action is taken, it needs to follow the rule of law, as well. I hope I have made that point clear on where I stand. Something needed to be done, I just think it was done somewhat poorly.
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: Kazan on April 29, 2008, 01:27:14 pm
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/28/polygamist.retreat.ap/index.html?eref=rss_latest

I'd suggest that anyone opposing the State's actions in this case take a good long read of that article.
Let's use your own logic then.  If half of the teenage girls were not pregnant and were not abused, then what rationale can be claimed for removing that half from their home, their parents, and their livelihood without due process of law?


A) Not being/previously pregnant is not evidence against abuse
B) it is standard operating policy for every state to remove all potential victims from the presence of suspected abusers
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: Sphynx on April 29, 2008, 01:56:55 pm
Let's use your own logic then.  If half of the teenage girls were not pregnant and were not abused, then what rationale can be claimed for removing that half from their home, their parents, and their livelihood without due process of law?

Heck, even with the half that they say are being abused, nobody's following due process.  They're just ordering people around.  "Detain them all and then figure out who's breaking the law" is exactly the wrong approach.  Never mind that these are still allegations; nobody has been charged.  This is the same overreach that gets everybody upset about Guantanamo.

Once again, I agree with the due process issue. Although I find it intersting that at the same time, removing men from their homes, wives, children, and livelihood without due process of law has been a common event among the FLDS in recent years. Once again, this goes to support the argument that something needed to be done (and would have been a legitimate cause for an investiation on those grounds alone, but once again nothing was done for years). At the same time, it is also somewhat distressing that the way it is being done by the state of Texas mirrors some of the troublesome dynamics that have been occuring within the FLDS sect. That's a sort of isomorphism that I am uncomfortable with.

Kazan is correct, though. It is standard operating procedure to remove children when there is reason to believe they are in a situation where they could be the target of abuse, including statuatory rape.
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: Goober5000 on April 29, 2008, 02:42:44 pm
A) Not being/previously pregnant is not evidence against abuse
B) it is standard operating policy for every state to remove all potential victims from the presence of suspected abusers
Are you advocating a policy of "guilty until proven innocent"?

There is no immediate, conclusive evidence for abuse, therefore no justification for immediate, wholesale removal like this.  State authorities are supposed to leave kids in their own homes unless there's "a continuing and immediate danger to their safety".
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: General Battuta on April 29, 2008, 03:03:04 pm
I'm really not sure where I fall here...ordinarily I'd be coming down hard on this kind of exploitation of women, but Goob is making some compelling arguments.
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: Mars on April 29, 2008, 04:09:39 pm
The children should be removed from the situation until a trial(s) can take place.

I'm all for innocent until proven guilty, however, if there is some evidence that abuse is taking place (and multiple pregnant 14 year olds with 50 year old "husbands" is a pretty good indication) the potential victims should be removed from situations where the abuse can continue.

I don't think the accused should be thrown in prison without a trial however. And I don't think the victims should be permenently removed from their familys without some solid evidence against them; especially given the state of the US foster system.
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: NGTM-1R on April 29, 2008, 04:14:08 pm
A) Not being/previously pregnant is not evidence against abuse

Presumption of innocence, not of guilt, is one of the foundations of the US legal system. Hell, it provides the whole reason for due process of law, otherwise we'd just lock people and skip the trials.

That said, if half of them were apparently subject to statutory rape Goob, that would also provide very good evidence of abuse, and of a "continuing and immediate danger" to them; if you take away the half being actively abused where do you think it's going to fall next?
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: Herra Tohtori on April 29, 2008, 04:58:44 pm
A) Not being/previously pregnant is not evidence against abuse

Presumption of innocence, not of guilt, is one of the foundations of the US legal system. Hell, it provides the whole reason for due process of law, otherwise we'd just lock people and skip the trials.

Negotiable. Just ask Guantanamo Bay inmates...


Quote
That said, if half of them were apparently subject to statutory rape Goob, that would also provide very good evidence of abuse, and of a "continuing and immediate danger" to them; if you take away the half being actively abused where do you think it's going to fall next?

I have to say that I agree, but the problem is mainly that the authorities didn't have solid evidence when the raid was made, which means that they acted on a whim.

Which raises the question how well the people of US of A in general are protected by the legislation and how much leeway is accepted from the law enforcement community in the name of "right thing", "protecting the children" or "spirit of law"?

Right and wrong (and good and evil) aside, what will happen when the law enforcement starts enforcing the perceived spirit of law instead of the letter of it, perception being subjective to personal opinion of it? Montesquiean separation of powers is done for purpose - when the legislative, judicial and executive branches of power start to merge, things have historically usually turned worse for the majority of the people (and better for people in power). I'm trying to avoid the slippery slope argumentation here but I can't help to think what other things could happen if things like this go unchecked. If a hoax call (albeit apparently based on reality to some extent) can cause actions like this, when will the authorities start rounding up families suspected of whatever someone decides to accuse them of? Are allegations made in unconfirmed, phone call sufficient for reasonable suspicion of illegal activities? Sounds kinda like Stasi to me to be honest.

Obviously, the present evidence for sexual abuse is pretty conclusive, and should be acted upon accordingly, but it should also be acknowledged that a mistake was made in the handling of the matter. Both by letting this kind of action go unchecked for as long as it has been going on, and in the way something was finally done about it.
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: Flipside on April 29, 2008, 05:41:14 pm
Sounds to me like they were itching for a reason to go in, and the hoax call was the spark to the powder-keg as it were. The Police wanted to take action, knew what was going on there, but had little or no evidence to get a warrant.

The hoax call wasn't checked properly because they were so eager to go in, and it said exactly what they wanted to hear.
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: NGTM-1R on April 29, 2008, 06:25:59 pm
If a hoax call (albeit apparently based on reality to some extent) can cause actions like this, when will the authorities start rounding up families suspected of whatever someone decides to accuse them of? Are allegations made in unconfirmed, phone call sufficient for reasonable suspicion of illegal activities? Sounds kinda like Stasi to me to be honest.

Obviously, the present evidence for sexual abuse is pretty conclusive, and should be acted upon accordingly, but it should also be acknowledged that a mistake was made in the handling of the matter. Both by letting this kind of action go unchecked for as long as it has been going on, and in the way something was finally done about it.

How, then, do you confirm it? Anonymous tips come in all the time, and are acted on often, and no one raises a word of protest over it. This was a lot hotter information apparently than one of those. In such a situation the police act on the information available and will come down on the side of public safety nearly every time, because public safety is their job. Prosecuting successfully is somebody else's job. This too is the seperation of powers at work, Herra; you can't really have it both ways.

Also, previous bad acts by this group lend strong evidence that the call could have been geniune. The raid was, as Flip proposes, not a spur-of-the-moment affair. The State of Texas has always taken a hardline stance against the FLDS and evidence was already both actively sought and in hand against this particular group of FLDS followers. The problem was that much of it, by those young males cast out, was not admissible or not offered before the statue of limitations expired. They had mountains of testimony to crimes they couldn't prosecute for. The call was a godsend (forgive the cynicism) to them because it gave them a reason to do what they fully intended to do eventually. The real problem is it came prematurely.
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: Kazan on April 29, 2008, 10:53:31 pm
A) Not being/previously pregnant is not evidence against abuse

Presumption of innocence, not of guilt, is one of the foundations of the US legal system.

which has absolutely NOTHING to do with the part of my comment you quoted.

i'm 100% for presumption of innocence, but i'm also 100% for protecting teenage girls from scumbag ****nuts (whether they are FLDS or not) so have no issue with the "remove them from situation of potential abuse once a report of abuse has come in"

they're trying their best to protect both the rights of the girls (to not be abused) and the accused (to be presumed innocent)

it's not a perfect world.. if you think putting the girls in protective custody is implying some guilt then maybe you're right - however legally it isn't implying anything but that they got a report of abuse.
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: TrashMan on April 30, 2008, 05:41:28 am
Are you advocating a policy of "guilty until proven innocent"?

There is no immediate, conclusive evidence for abuse, therefore no justification for immediate, wholesale removal like this.  State authorities are supposed to leave kids in their own homes unless there's "a continuing and immediate danger to their safety".

Goob, remind me to NEVER let you take care of my kids. You'd probably have a pedophile or some serial killer watching over them, since they haven't done anything to the kids YET.

When it comes to children, which are supposed to be our greatest tresure, caution in cases like this is the right thing to do.
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: Herra Tohtori on April 30, 2008, 11:41:33 am
Are you advocating a policy of "guilty until proven innocent"?

There is no immediate, conclusive evidence for abuse, therefore no justification for immediate, wholesale removal like this.  State authorities are supposed to leave kids in their own homes unless there's "a continuing and immediate danger to their safety".

Goob, remind me to NEVER let you take care of my kids. You'd probably have a pedophile or some serial killer watching over them, since they haven't done anything to the kids YET.

When it comes to children, which are supposed to be our greatest tresure, caution in cases like this is the right thing to do.


Congratulations, you have managed to combine "Straw man", "Argumentum ad hominem", "Argumentum ad logicam", and "Non sequitur" (at least). While this is undoubtedly an achievement in itself, as well as a change from the usual "Argumentum ad absurdum" and "Argumentum ad nauseam", I wouldn't necessarily say that it improves the quality of your posting.

Could you perhaps consider keeping thy brainfarts to thy self? If not, could some nice admin/moderator perhaps help him for a while? :doubt:


Also, like Franklin said... People who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither. Even if it's "for the children", operating outside the law will not lead to anything good. If the authorities need ways to interrupt the activities of cults like these, they should get the rights due process and act within the law.

Obviously the problem in this specific case is whether or not belonging to the FLDS in itself constitutes as "a continuing and immediate danger to the children's safety". Considering the present evidence (and general knowledge of the base ideology of the sect) I'd say it does. But considering what evidence the authorities really had when they initially committed the raid...? Hardly. Which means that no matter how noble the cause was, getting all the children into foster care (not just pregnant ones, or clearly abused ones, or based on some other criteria of selection) was in effect an act of vigilantism - an action that the authorities most likely believed to be good and right, but without actual legal support. Mind you, I pretty much agree with the good and right part of the action itself - I wouldn't want any children to be exposed to ideology such as the FLDS' one - but it's the acting-outside-law that gets to me.

Extrapolating from the case you could draw the conclusion that if the authorities think that it's good and right throwing people into Guantanamo Bay and secret prisons for years without Habeas Corpus, without prosecution or even case, occasionally subjecting them to what is generally perceived as torture, then it's OK for them to do so, regardless of what the letter of the law actually says about it.


I ask again. What is the actual reason why this raid took place? Is it because of the phone call? Or because of FLDS' actions? Or because FLDS has been allowed to continue their... activities... for decades?
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: Goober5000 on April 30, 2008, 01:00:57 pm
If not, could some nice admin/moderator perhaps help him for a while? :doubt:
I'd be happy to. :rolleyes: We usually don't ban people for stupidity, but in his case I'll make an exception.  His cumulative history of what he thinks passes for "debating" should disqualify him from any further participation in General Discussion, as far as I'm concerned.  I'm beginning to thing he's a troll in sheep's clothing.

Anyway.  If someone has been abusing a kid, by all means lock him up and throw away the key.  But there's no proof that's what's been happening here, and quite a lot of evidence that it hasn't.  Even if abuse has occurred, then the authorities should confine their actions to the abuser and his family, not the entire compound!  Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.

And for you "think of the children" people, think of the impact of removing over 400 children from their own families and placing them in foster homes with no scheduled return date.  The culture shock combined with the separation from their tightly-knit society is probably the most traumatizing thing they'll ever experience.
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: redsniper on April 30, 2008, 01:41:30 pm
And as I understand it, the potential for abuse is quite high in the foster system, so they might not be much better off. :doubt:
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: Mars on April 30, 2008, 05:46:04 pm
And as I understand it, the potential for abuse is quite high in the foster system, so they might not be much better off. :doubt:

On this I can agree
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: Goober5000 on May 12, 2008, 10:13:42 pm
And here's an example of it:
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/headline/metro/5770183.html

I make no apologies for the bump, lest time dull our consciences.
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: Mars on May 12, 2008, 10:44:21 pm
We live (at least we Americans, can't speak for anywhere else) in a society that really would like to pretend all of the displaced kids are taken care of, even though the reality of the situation is that many of them go from bad situations to worse situations.

We also see pedophiles behind every corner.

Between the two of those I believe a lot of mistakes are made, and kids are sent from a possible polygamist marrige to a greesy old man at 13 to life with a crack whore foster mother at 8
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: Kazan on May 15, 2008, 06:11:48 pm
hey goober.. how about that lack of evidence :P

i don't know.. but i think one of these girls having been pregnant enough at the time of being picked up to give birth within a week or two afterward would seem to be some conclusive evidence
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: Goober5000 on May 15, 2008, 10:39:21 pm
Not rly.  The age of consent in Texas is 17; 16 if you're married.  And nobody's going after Jamie-Lynn Spears, who was 16 when she got pregnant.

But the point of contention is the raid.  An hoax accusation against a single person (the warrant for which having since been dropped (http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080503/D90E1EFO1.html)) is no justification for the kidnapping of over 460 children and the displacement of their families.
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: Kazan on May 16, 2008, 08:50:11 am
Not rly.  The age of consent in Texas is 17; 16 if you're married.

this girl is not that old

And nobody's going after Jamie-Lynn Spears, who was 16 when she got pregnant.

false analogy

because
A) stat rape laws have a "does not apply if individuals are within X years of age of each other" (in Iowa it's 4)
B) obviously nobody has filed a complaint (ie JLS or her mom haven't called the cops on the father)



But the point of contention is the raid.  An hoax accusation against a single person (the warrant for which having since been dropped (http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080503/D90E1EFO1.html)) is no justification for the kidnapping of over 460 children and the displacement of their families.

it's not kidnapping, go learn something about the law in relation to reported sex abuse cases - that single report may have been a hoax but that does not change the fact that they're ARE real cases that took place there and they know about them now.

is it bad that the initial call was a hoax? yes and shame on the person making it
does that make the real cases not true? nope
does that make the real cases not admissible in court? not as far as I know
does that mean the cops may prosecute the perpetrator of the hoax? ever herad of filing a false police report.
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: NGTM-1R on May 16, 2008, 01:45:31 pm
does that make the real cases not admissible in court? not as far as I know

It might, actually. I'm not a criminal justice major but I seem to remember a search under false pretenses tends to be inadmissible. I don't doubt there's some form of "good faith" or something that can be argued since it wasn't the police's false pretenses,  but legally it gets rather murky.
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: MP-Ryan on May 16, 2008, 02:09:12 pm
does that make the real cases not admissible in court? not as far as I know

It might, actually. I'm not a criminal justice major but I seem to remember a search under false pretenses tends to be inadmissible. I don't doubt there's some form of "good faith" or something that can be argued since it wasn't the police's false pretenses,  but legally it gets rather murky.

Yes, but generally in the legal system judges will frequently allow a little more in the way of argument when it comes to child abuse cases.  Ultimately, legal precedents see the overall good of the child as coming before the shades of grey written into case law.
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: Goober5000 on May 18, 2008, 01:41:22 am
Kazan, the naked assertions by the Texas authorities are merely last-ditch attempts to cover their asses.

Quote
SAN ANTONIO — When Texas child welfare authorities released statistics showing nearly 60 percent of the teen girls taken from a polygamist sect's ranch were pregnant or had children, they seemed to prove what was alleged all along: The sect commonly pushed girls into marriage and sex.

But in the past week, the state has twice been forced to admit "girls" who gave birth while in state custody are actually adults. One was 22 and claims she showed state officials a Utah birth certificate shortly after she and more than 400 minors were seized from the west Texas ranch in an April raid.

...
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/nation/5786522.html

This is not "finding evidence of abuse and then going in to enforce the law".  This is "invading a society in violation of the law and then turning everything upside-down in hopes that abuse will turn up somewhere".
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: vyper on May 18, 2008, 02:33:38 pm
I think this is more a case of "oh ****, we've got good reason to believe kids are being abused both mentally and physically, let's go in and deal with the consequences later".

But of course, that leaves all religions open to such attack and I can see why you'd be afraid of that Goob. ;)
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: Goober5000 on May 22, 2008, 05:50:34 pm
Not only religions, but any kind of us-versus-them categorization is open to this kind of abuse.  Granted a religion is probably the most likely category. :)

And finally (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080522/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat;_ylt=Avbie37SxukZhJPBa_y4gAVH2ocA), common sense starts waking up.
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: Herra Tohtori on May 23, 2008, 02:38:27 am
Quote
In a ruling that could torpedo the case against the West Texas polygamist sect, a state appeals court Thursday said authorities had no right to seize more than 440 children in a raid on the splinter group's compound last month.


So... if they had seized less than 440 children, would it have been OK?  :nervous:

I know, I know, but that sentence structure just blows... Writing it like that makes it rather ambiguous, if they meant that "...authorities had no right to seize the children..."

There's not even need to put the numbers on that sentence. Sheesh what are they teaching in those schools these days... <arglebargle, glop-glyf... mutter, shudder...>
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: Mongoose on May 23, 2008, 02:44:25 am
Here's a question I've had since the start of this whole thing...

Polygamy is illegal under Texas law, right?

Soooo...why aren't the husbands getting busted right off the bat for that, potentially forced marriages or not?  It doesn't seem to have come up at all in any of the coverage I've read thus far.  And even before the phone call and subsequent raid, it was common knowledge that these men practiced polygamy.  Was everyone just looking the other way and twiddling their thumbs?
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: Herra Tohtori on May 23, 2008, 02:50:01 am
Here's a question I've had since the start of this whole thing...

Polygamy is illegal under Texas law, right?

Soooo...why aren't the husbands getting busted right off the bat for that, potentially forced marriages or not?  It doesn't seem to have come up at all in any of the coverage I've read thus far.  And even before the phone call and subsequent raid, it was common knowledge that these men practiced polygamy.  Was everyone just looking the other way and twiddling their thumbs?


Because AFAIK they are not legally married to more than one woman. They call it spiritual marriage, which does not grant any of the things that official, legal marriage does (like rights to half the property in case of divorce, or the widow getting half the heritage in case either dies and other half being divided to the descendants/other relatives...

Seeing how state and church are (supposedly) separate in US of A, it isn't illegal to have affairs with several women and be married to one. Which is what this equals to in the eye of law. :blah:
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: Goober5000 on May 23, 2008, 03:03:56 am
The state issues marriage licenses for, essentially, taxation purposes.  That's why you can get married by a judge.  "Polygamy" is defined as having a marriage license with more than one person at the same time.
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: Mongoose on May 23, 2008, 03:53:06 am
Ah, right.  I wasn't aware of whether or not any of the "couples" had sought out state marriage licenses at any point.
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: MP-Ryan on May 23, 2008, 12:25:51 pm
Ah, right.  I wasn't aware of whether or not any of the "couples" had sought out state marriage licenses at any point.

The stickier issue still even if they had is whether or not the courts would uphold marriage laws or toss them over freedom of religion.
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: Goober5000 on May 29, 2008, 11:46:21 pm
More good news...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,360268,00.html
Quote
...  The high court affirmed a decision by an appellate court last week, saying Child Protective Services failed to show an immediate danger to the more than 400 children swept up from the Yearning For Zion Ranch nearly two months ago. ...

*refrains from taking a potshot at Kazan*
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: Mars on May 30, 2008, 02:27:43 am
Uh... fox? Oh well... it's easily confirmed.

But yes... you have a point.

The United States was at war with the Mormons before.
Title: Re: 400 Children Removed From Sect's Texas Ranch
Post by: karajorma on June 02, 2008, 10:27:08 am
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7431848.stm

Looks like they're free to go home while the investigation continues at least.