Hard Light Productions Forums

Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => The Modding Workshop => Topic started by: Warp Shadow on May 05, 2008, 05:57:00 pm

Title: "fighting"
Post by: Warp Shadow on May 05, 2008, 05:57:00 pm
I assume this must be either a small issue or one everyone has accepted by now but I simply cannot stand it anymore. Is there any way, through changing of ai, tables whatever, to stop the AI from constantly flying over you and trying to tail you even while being shot at?! It breaks down into them circling around you forever while you try to scroll uop with them, shooting at them and you just circle around each other like this for a while until eventually you win. In a big brawl it's not a problem as the ships fly, evade and change targets so they don't fall into predictable patterns but when one goes after you, it just flies over you, as you are turning, in a never ending circle trying to get behind you. If you break away, then it just falls behind you and shoots and if you turn around while it's chasing you than it will just circle around you again to get behind you. If you slide or afterburn it just keeps trying. If you glide then it follows you while you face backwards and shoot at it. It's so frigging stupid! Otherwise intense dogfights lose their appeal when you have to spend 10 freaking minutes scrolling your mouse up over and over again, picking it up and dropping it back down, holding down the left mouse button and listening to the exciting battle going on behind you. Is there some build where the enemies break off, change directions, switch targets or generally even change their tactics? This circle fighting is driving me nuts. ESPECIALLY with the velocity mod!!! How do the BtRL people stand it?!
Title: Re: "fighting"
Post by: Stormkeeper on May 05, 2008, 06:45:39 pm
When they fly over you, slow down. Breaking helps to bring them into your crosshairs.
Title: Re: "fighting"
Post by: haloboy100 on May 05, 2008, 06:46:52 pm
I hate to break it to you, but this is how it should be. I mean, the only way to properly chase a target is to be behind him. All the AI is trying to do is shoot at you, and this it's trying to do it.

Also. Get a joystick. The most likely reason why I never even thought about this at all was because with a joystick I'm able to turn fast enough to intercept anybody on my ass.

When they fly over you, slow down. Breaking helps to bring them into your crosshairs.
Forgot about that. But shouldn't the AI be matching your speed?
Title: Re: "fighting"
Post by: Droid803 on May 05, 2008, 06:48:41 pm
Its not a problem with the AI.
Its a problem with YOU.

Why wouldn't they try go get behind you? You want easy killz? lol.
Would you prefer if they're flying in a straight line?
Would you prefer them to sit there?

Whenever I dogfight, I go behind the enemy to shoot their asses off. Its only right the AI do the same.

EDIT: yes, getting a joystick will help. Simply pull up until they appear.
Title: Re: "fighting"
Post by: Warp Shadow on May 05, 2008, 08:59:44 pm
Its not a problem with the AI.
Its a problem with YOU.

Why wouldn't they try go get behind you? You want easy killz? lol.
Would you prefer if they're flying in a straight line?
Would you prefer them to sit there?

Whenever I dogfight, I go behind the enemy to shoot their asses off. Its only right the AI do the same.

EDIT: yes, getting a joystick will help. Simply pull up until they appear.

I'd say you're the one with the problem here. I'm not stupid. Getting on someone's tail is the smart thing to do. However, continuing to circle around your target like a demented merry go round is just above ramming into your enemy on the tactical intelligence scale. I have no problems with the difficulty. In fact, I already said that I win every time. What I have problems with is the tedium. I would not prefer my enemies to fly in a straight line or sit still. I would prefer them to try a different tactic when the one they are using turns out to be a half baked impractical brainfart. If you've ever seen an actual dogfight, the pilots don't spend 20 minutes flying pretty circles around each other. That just results in the faster turner winning. So unless me being bored of the AI's drudgery is somehow affecting the cosmic balance of the universe and making freespace dumb, it pretty much a problem with the AI. And also, your problem for commenting on a post you obviously didn't understand in a condescending, egotistical and generally ass-hattish way.

TO STORM KEEPER: I hadn't actually tried just braking. I figured the AI would just brake too and intall a new ventilation system on my fighter. Apparently they don't though :doubt:

In general, this isn't so much a problem I have, as an issue that sucks the fun out of the game. Maybe a joystick would be better for keeping up with them but it would still be irritating trying to shoot them. It's not really too bad at the default two 250 km/h speeds the ships go at, it's just an annoying inconvenience. No, it's when you jack up the speed to the speed that you would expect of futuristic space fighters that it gets unbearable. I would seriosuly try to learn AI coding if it were the only way to fix it.

Try this. Make a FRED mission, 1 on 1 in clear space. Set the velocity on...say the...Ulysses to 160 and the turning to anywhere from 2.0 to 2.9 adn just TRY to gun them down. It's a huge pain in the ass. It's virtually impossible to get behind them and takes forever to circle kill them. Oh and remember to jack up the weapon velocities.

Actually, I think I remember hearing a huge complaint about this on the BtRL forums but I couldn't try it out because it crashed every time I loaded the game.
Title: Re: "fighting"
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on May 05, 2008, 09:03:56 pm
   The only reason the AI is flying circles around you is because you're following suit and flying circles around him. You're both doing the same thing. If the other guy is too manoeuvrable for you to get on his tail, then send one of your wingman after him and go attack someone else. Yeah, they'll get some free shots, but usually if you break off it'll give you a chance to get back on their tail when they follow you.
Title: Re: "fighting"
Post by: haloboy100 on May 05, 2008, 09:09:35 pm
Plus it takes, like, 10 seconds for your shields to recharge to full anyway, if they get some pot shots.
Title: Re: "fighting"
Post by: blowfish on May 05, 2008, 09:09:53 pm
You are experiencing dumb AI syndrome.  Basically, the AI is too dumb to know how to get out of circling.  I actually used this to my advantage once.  I was on BtRL, some Scar duel mission, on Hard.  I had no hope of beating Scar normally.  Instead, I got myself into one of these infinite loops.  Scar kept firing at me, even though I was always outside his reach.  Eventually, he ran out of ammo, and I was able to kill him (still wasn't easy though ... squirmy son of a b*tch), but it just proves that the AI has no logic skills.
Title: Re: "fighting"
Post by: General Battuta on May 05, 2008, 10:12:04 pm
I hate to say it, but this is the way things often work out in real life...they're called 'dogfights' for just this reason. Tail-chasing.
Title: Re: "fighting"
Post by: Commander Zane on May 05, 2008, 10:27:16 pm
I'd say I have to agree with Warp Shadow, it's particualry annoying on a campaign like Transcend's final mission, having to spend about five to ten minutes to actually take down ships that can fly circles around you three times before you finally complete one elevator roll.
Title: Re: "fighting"
Post by: Warp Shadow on May 05, 2008, 10:50:07 pm
Ah, I'm glad to see people know what I'm talking about now. I'm seriously prepared to do AI coding or something to fix this. It's not the the AI trying to tail you that is the problem. It's the boring and idiotic way it does it. Funnily enough, if you set computers to fight amongst each other they don't seem to do this. They put on quite a spectacular show amongst themselves. It seems that, however, once they decide to attack a player, they lose all common sense, fear and piloting ability and they dumbly circle around you forever. There should be something in the coding that's like "if the AI stays in chasing state for however many seconds (probably influenced by a stat) without reaching the state where it is behind the player and commences shooting, the AI changes to a different state like shooting from the side, changing directions, breaking off and flying back or even just changing targets". That way, it wouldn't get stuck in a perpetual state of ass chasing.
Title: Re: "fighting"
Post by: Excalibur on May 05, 2008, 10:55:38 pm
Slowing down does work a little - if there are any large ships around, fly around it and abush the AI.
If you have a mouse, use the 2 numpad key for a min - usually it is easier to fly in an "upwards" circle. I do agree that they don't change their strategy - I have been in loop-de-loop contests before.


Show me something that beats 87 BF reds and I'll show you Hateful Lies!!!

My Colossus with all turrets on BFRed with 1 second recharge rate  ;7 Yours are only canon BFReds... ;)
Title: Re: "fighting"
Post by: Stormkeeper on May 05, 2008, 11:01:10 pm
See, you have to remember that speed and maneuverabilty are opposites. That is, faster you're flying, harder it is to turn. Braking allows you to turn much faster and bring him into your viewport quicker.

The AI doesn't always match your speed though, usually their speed varies based on what you're doing. Not sure about you all, but I'm the one usually matching their speed, and my speedo keeps jumping up and down.

I'd say I have to agree with Warp Shadow, it's particualry annoying on a campaign like Transcend's final mission, having to spend about five to ten minutes to actually take down ships that can fly circles around you three times before you finally complete one elevator roll.
Is it the fight against that stealth fighter?

Show me something that beats 87 BF reds and I'll show you Hateful Lies!!!

My Colossus with all turrets on BFRed with 1 second recharge rate  ;7 Yours are only canon BFReds... ;)

... Huh ?
Title: Re: "fighting"
Post by: chief1983 on May 06, 2008, 12:26:22 am
Actually, pilots _will_ spend some time repeating the same maneuver, if they think they're edging closer to getting a shot.  It's only when one pilot realizes he's losing the fight that he tries a different tactic or looks for an escape.  But that can sometimes take a while.
Title: Re: "fighting"
Post by: Commander Zane on May 06, 2008, 07:38:13 am
See, you have to remember that speed and maneuverabilty are opposites. That is, faster you're flying, harder it is to turn. Braking allows you to turn much faster and bring him into your viewport quicker.

The AI doesn't always match your speed though, usually their speed varies based on what you're doing. Not sure about you all, but I'm the one usually matching their speed, and my speedo keeps jumping up and down.

I'd say I have to agree with Warp Shadow, it's particualry annoying on a campaign like Transcend's final mission, having to spend about five to ten minutes to actually take down ships that can fly circles around you three times before you finally complete one elevator roll.
Is it the fight against that stealth fighter?

Show me something that beats 87 BF reds and I'll show you Hateful Lies!!!

My Colossus with all turrets on BFRed with 1 second recharge rate  ;7 Yours are only canon BFReds... ;)

... Huh ?
Against all the fighters, Erynies, Pegasus, Perseus, whatever else was there.
Title: Re: "fighting"
Post by: Warp Shadow on May 06, 2008, 09:05:22 am
Actually, pilots _will_ spend some time repeating the same maneuver, if they think they're edging closer to getting a shot.  It's only when one pilot realizes he's losing the fight that he tries a different tactic or looks for an escape.  But that can sometimes take a while.

That's the problem, the AI never wins circle fights and so should try something else after circling while being shot at for 10 minutes.
Title: Re: "fighting"
Post by: General Battuta on May 06, 2008, 12:11:31 pm
The fact that the AI doesn't circle-chase other AIs, but does circle-chase you, seems to indicate that the difference lies in your behavior.

Maybe try doing something different?
Title: Re: "fighting"
Post by: haloboy100 on May 06, 2008, 12:12:13 pm

Maybe try doing something different?
"DO A BARRELL ROLL!"
Title: Re: "fighting"
Post by: General Battuta on May 06, 2008, 12:13:20 pm
Yeah, or you could try a somersault.
Title: Re: "fighting"
Post by: haloboy100 on May 06, 2008, 12:14:05 pm
Use the boost afterburner to chase!
Title: Re: "fighting"
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on May 06, 2008, 02:13:05 pm
That's the problem, the AI never wins circle fights and so should try something else after circling while being shot at for 10 minutes.

     Try playing the TVWP Demo, the AI will kick your ass in a circle fight guaranteed.
Title: Re: "fighting"
Post by: BengalTiger on May 06, 2008, 02:29:26 pm
Actually the AI could do some Split-S's and stuff when it's getting pwned (and the Split S could end with pulling up for the semi-loop, since there is no gravity in space to mandate going down to get more energy from the Earth's gravity).
It could also use Aburners more often, because speed is life.
Title: Re: "fighting"
Post by: Polpolion on May 06, 2008, 03:53:15 pm
Quote
This circle fighting is driving me nuts. ESPECIALLY with the velocity mod!!!

Adding glide helps to alleviate this situation a lot, which is part of the reason why I added to my Fast Mod, which if I do say so myself, is a quite excellent alternative to velocity mod. Well I'd imagine so, because I've never actually played velocity mod.

Well, just if velocity mod is pissing you off, go download and try Fast mod from Freespacemods.net :p .
Title: Re: "fighting"
Post by: Mobius on May 06, 2008, 03:55:33 pm
That's the problem, the AI never wins circle fights and so should try something else after circling while being shot at for 10 minutes.

You're generalizing here, it depends on the circles...you can get different results.
Title: Re: "fighting"
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on May 06, 2008, 08:13:36 pm
Actually the AI could do some Split-S's and stuff when it's getting pwned (and the Split S could end with pulling up for the semi-loop, since there is no gravity in space to mandate going down to get more energy from the Earth's gravity).
It could also use Aburners more often, because speed is life.

    Use of Afterburner is dependent upon the difficulty level.
Title: Re: "fighting"
Post by: Excalibur on May 07, 2008, 12:19:43 am
That just gives you a wider arc so that the AI can shoot at you. :doubt:

Do a barrel roll and turn hard. Then do it in the opposite direction. Slow down, keep changing direction, etc.
Title: Re: "fighting"
Post by: haloboy100 on May 07, 2008, 05:32:11 pm
You could always try the corkscrew maneuver. That works surprisingly well.
Title: Re: "fighting"
Post by: IceFire on May 07, 2008, 11:04:29 pm
The AI isn't that bright but to suggest that maintaining the circle is something that a human wouldn't do is also not right.  If you've played FreeSpace 2 in online matches for a while you'll definitely find a group of folks who will do exactly what the AI is doing.  Following the tight circle and completely unable to disengage (because doing so would mean getting shot at).  A good player would have an escape option by playing with the angles a bit to try and break out of the circle at the best point...but while it does seem a little inane its not all that far off base.

I'm not sure how a Split S really helps in space combat FreeSpace style. Without gravity, pulling a Split S is a pointless move as the opponent can push a negative G as fast as you can pull a positive G "upside down" relative to him.  The other portion of the Split S, once executed, is that you're usually in a position to dive away from the fight and escape but that doesn't work here.  You might be able to exploit a momentary lag in response from the attacking fighter if you can leverage some sort of angle advantage versus the opponent's ship and its maneuvering axis but thats VERY tricky.
Title: Re: "fighting"
Post by: haloboy100 on May 07, 2008, 11:13:42 pm
I try to avoid circle fights. My evasive maneuvers usually end up me jerking in front of my pursuer in what looks like random jerks of the stick, but I'm actually judging from the last shot the AI fired at me, and taking action then. I then twist out of his sights when I get the chance.
Title: Re: "fighting"
Post by: Star-Epock on May 09, 2008, 06:39:09 pm
As Icefire said, FS is void of Physics. Its not meant to be a strategic Space sim by any stretch.

If you want real combat, try IL2-Sturmovik. Lucky, VERY lucky if you shoot down another plane in a mission.

Independence war, had larger thrusters on the bottom of the ship, so pulling up was faster, diving slower.

These two games have some Dogfight tactical possibilities.

I did think FS on Insane was Like "No where to run" on PXO with 8 people. Use a mouse to aim, joystick for the dogfight, Morning stars and Missiles for the kills.

Ive been trying to make Alpha 1 a none mincing machine in a campaign in FS for years. I cant make it work.  :drevil:
Title: Re: "fighting"
Post by: chief1983 on May 12, 2008, 11:52:10 am
Get halfway decent against people, and it's not too difficult to get a kill or two in IL-2 single player.  Assuming you're not terribly outclassed by your opponents, and even then, the AI have some annoying tendencies that make them easy to get.  They also have some tendencies to cheat too, so watch it :)
Title: Re: "fighting"
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on May 12, 2008, 02:47:51 pm
Get halfway decent against people, and it's not too difficult to get a kill or two in IL-2 single player.  Assuming you're not terribly outclassed by your opponents, and even then, the AI have some annoying tendencies that make them easy to get.  They also have some tendencies to cheat too, so watch it :)

          Hmmn, last time I played that game I was chasing a plane for 20 minutes until I ran out of ammo. Got it to start smoking but I think it made it home okay. Darnit.
Title: Re: "fighting"
Post by: chief1983 on May 12, 2008, 06:14:47 pm
Tohtori's favorite practice in that game is a quick skirmish vs about 15 AI planes.  My favorite is a mission in Pacific Fighters, the US P-40 Bellows field mission, where you start off on the runway as they're attacking you.  Pretty much instant action right there.  That and a Zero almost always gets on your tail as you're leaving the airfield.
Title: Re: "fighting"
Post by: jr2 on May 25, 2008, 02:07:15 am
Here:  hold "Z", and as your speed drops, whip your ship to a new direction and mash the afterburner.  Might work.  Prolly not, but it's worth a shot.

EDIT: Oh, and remember your yaw speed might be different from your pitch speed.  For example, the Ulysses has killer yaw speed.  Try it some time, grab a Ulysses, and haul your mouse to the right or left... you can use this to your advantage if you remember it.
Title: Re: "fighting"
Post by: chief1983 on May 25, 2008, 11:54:19 am
Yeah from what I can remember, it seems that most fighters favor pitch over yaw.  So I typically find my myself using bank to line up a full pitch move to stay on someone.
Title: Re: "fighting"
Post by: Excalibur on May 26, 2008, 12:39:31 am
The AI does circles...that means we all fly in circles - think about it. Hint: AI. Define.

btw, slowing down does work - if you hit the computer, it tries to crokscrew away (sometimes) or whatever, then it blows up. (assuming you're good enough)
Title: Re: "fighting"
Post by: jr2 on May 26, 2008, 01:36:50 am
One of the moves that makes the AV-8B Harrier II such a deadly opponent is its ability to use its directional thrust nozzles as a brake - it can throw it's engine thrust forwards, and drop speed faster than normally possible, making the unfortunate pilot on it's tail it's new target.  The F-15 also has a monstrous airbrake behind the pilot on it's back, probably for the same reason.
Title: Re: "fighting"
Post by: Commander Zane on May 26, 2008, 02:02:13 am
However, an airbrake the size of a tank manufacturing plant's hangar doors isn't going to do spacecraft a whole lot of good is it?
Title: Re: "fighting"
Post by: jr2 on May 26, 2008, 02:08:26 am
No, but reverse thrust definitely does.  When you hold Z, the craft brakes, producing the effect.  How is another question altogether.
Title: Re: "fighting"
Post by: zonination on May 27, 2008, 02:51:17 am
Do a barrel roll. :D
Title: Re: "fighting"
Post by: Stormkeeper on May 27, 2008, 04:27:05 am
Or you could dive, and hit your burners!  :D