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Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Kosh on July 05, 2008, 11:27:03 pm

Title: 235 miles per gallon?
Post by: Kosh on July 05, 2008, 11:27:03 pm
http://blog.wired.com/cars/2008/07/laugh-at-high-g.html


Quote
With gas prices going through the roof and regulators requiring cars to be ever more miserly, Volkswagen is bringing new meaning to the term "fuel efficiency" with a bullet-shaped microcar that gets a stunning 282 235 mpg.

Volkswagen's had its super-thrifty One-Liter Car concept vehicle -- so named because that's how much fuel it needs to go 100 kilometers -- stashed away for six years. The body's made of carbon fiber to minimize weight (the entire car weighs just 660 pounds) and company execs didn't expect the material to become cheap enough to produce the car until 2012.

But VW's decided to build the car two years ahead of schedule.

According to Britain's Car magazine, VW has approved a plan to build a limited number of One-Liters in 2010. They'll probably be built in the company's prototype shop, which has the capacity to build as many as 1,000 per year. That's not a lot, but it's enough to help VW get a lot of attention while showing how much light weight and an efficient engine can achieve.

VW unveiled the slick two-seater concept six years ago at a stockholder's meeting in Hamburg. To prove it was a real car, Chairman Ferdinand Piech personally drove it from Wolfsburg to Hamburg. At the time, he said the car could see production when the cost of its carbon monocoque dropped from 35,000 Euros (about $55,000) to 5,000 Euros (about $8,000) -- something he figured would happen in 2012. With carbon fiber being used in everything from airliners to laptops these days, VW's apparently decided the cost is competitive enough to build at least a few hundred One-Liters.

VW's engineers -- who spent three years developing the car -- made extensive use of magnesium, titanium and aluminum to bring it in at less than one-third the weight of a Toyota Echo. According to Canadian Driver, the front suspension assembly weighs just 18 pounds. The six-speed transmission features a magnesium case, titanium bolts and hollow gears; it weighs a tad more than 50 pounds. The 16-inch wheels are carbon fiber. The magnesium steering wheel weighs a little more than a pound. How much of the concept car's exotic hardware makes it to the production model remains to be seen.


Whoa.
Title: Re: 235 miles per gallon?
Post by: Nuke on July 06, 2008, 12:21:22 am
isnt that exactly what i said they should do in that other car thread and everyone thought i was crazy :D
Title: Re: 235 miles per gallon?
Post by: Nuclear1 on July 06, 2008, 12:48:30 am
Me wants.

Not just because of the 235, but I've always wanted one of those cars from Tron, and this looks like almost the exact same.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f2/GLtronwin.jpg/800px-GLtronwin.jpg)
(http://blog.wired.com/cars/images/2008/07/02/vw_one_liter_concept01_2.jpg)
Title: Re: 235 miles per gallon?
Post by: Fenrir on July 06, 2008, 12:57:45 am
Holy crap, you`re right! I want it, too.
Title: Re: 235 miles per gallon?
Post by: Mongoose on July 06, 2008, 02:28:30 am
Good luck if you get into an accident in that thing.  And I feel like trying to cram anything bigger than a gallon of milk into it would max out its storage space. :p
Title: Re: 235 miles per gallon?
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on July 06, 2008, 02:49:42 am
I bet even the Carver is larger than that... ;)
Title: Re: 235 miles per gallon?
Post by: Stormkeeper on July 06, 2008, 03:28:26 am
I uberly hate those races in Tron.
Title: Re: 235 miles per gallon?
Post by: WMCoolmon on July 06, 2008, 03:35:59 am
Makes me wonder about hooking up a vertically-oriented series of colored luminous fog dispensers. Probably wouldn't be street-legal to use them while driving, though. :p
Title: Re: 235 miles per gallon?
Post by: Stormkeeper on July 06, 2008, 03:41:59 am
Makes me wonder about hooking up a vertically-oriented series of colored luminous fog dispensers. Probably wouldn't be street-legal to use them while driving, though. :p
Would also make for one absolute fail of a get-away vehicle. :lol:
Title: Re: 235 miles per gallon?
Post by: Nuke on July 06, 2008, 08:14:52 am
this thing has a drag coefficient of 0.16, holy ****!

Good luck if you get into an accident in that thing.  And I feel like trying to cram anything bigger than a gallon of milk into it would max out its storage space. :p

you'd probably bounce off.
Title: Re: 235 miles per gallon?
Post by: IceFire on July 06, 2008, 09:07:03 am
Good luck if you get into an accident in that thing.  And I feel like trying to cram anything bigger than a gallon of milk into it would max out its storage space. :p
Shouldn't be a huge problem...its designed like a race car basically.  Similar materials.  The biggest problem will be mass and how much it gets tossed around.  Structurally it should be reasonably tough based on how they say they constructed it.
Title: Re: 235 miles per gallon?
Post by: vyper on July 06, 2008, 09:28:03 am
Bring back the EcoRacer. It looked far more fun. Sure it only got 62MPG Imp. but come on.

Also, any prices? ;)
Title: Re: 235 miles per gallon?
Post by: colecampbell666 on July 06, 2008, 09:34:09 am
Good luck if you get into an accident in that thing.  And I feel like trying to cram anything bigger than a gallon of milk into it would max out its storage space. :p
Shouldn't be a huge problem...its designed like a race car basically.  Similar materials.  The biggest problem will be mass and how much it gets tossed around.  Structurally it should be reasonably tough based on how they say they constructed it.
Yeah, that's the main reason my mom refuses to use our fuel efficient Saturn 300, instead a bulky Grand Caravan which is less fuel efficient than my dad's 1994 1-ton Chev. She says that she gets tossed around by the draft from big trucks, she does a lot of nighttime driving.
Title: Re: 235 miles per gallon?
Post by: vyper on July 06, 2008, 11:27:09 am
Size doesn't equal strength.
Title: Re: 235 miles per gallon?
Post by: Herra Tohtori on July 06, 2008, 12:10:34 pm
Size doesn't equal strength.

Yeah. Size just equals reduced accelerations in case of collision, more buffer area to absorb the accelerations, and in overall reduced shock to the occupants of the vehicle.

It's relatively easy (albeit more expensive than normal car building) to make the chassis strong enough not to cave in on highway speed collisions (example here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJHpUO-S0i8)). It's a lot more difficult to make sure that the occupants of the car survive. Helmet, HANS and four point safety belts might make it possible, air cushions might help, but with normal safety belts and no neck/head protection, it would be... unlikely to survive, say, crashing to a concrete wall at 110 km/h... and if you get your car under a 12-wheeler you're gonna go splat no matter what kind of carbon-fiber-unobtainium hull with shield projection your car has.

Title: Re: 235 miles per gallon?
Post by: Titan on July 06, 2008, 12:34:32 pm
i wonder if theres any hidden message in the license plate of the car pictured a number of posts up...
Title: Re: 235 miles per gallon?
Post by: Mongoose on July 06, 2008, 12:49:35 pm
Good luck if you get into an accident in that thing.  And I feel like trying to cram anything bigger than a gallon of milk into it would max out its storage space. :p
Shouldn't be a huge problem...its designed like a race car basically.  Similar materials.  The biggest problem will be mass and how much it gets tossed around.  Structurally it should be reasonably tough based on how they say they constructed it.
I'm just envisioning running into anything bigger than a sedan in it.  And the mental picture I'm getting is something like Frogger meets monster truck.  Not pretty. :p
Title: Re: 235 miles per gallon?
Post by: vyper on July 06, 2008, 12:52:48 pm
Size doesn't equal strength.

Yeah. Size just equals reduced accelerations in case of collision, more buffer area to absorb the accelerations, and in overall reduced shock to the occupants of the vehicle.

It's relatively easy (albeit more expensive than normal car building) to make the chassis strong enough not to cave in on highway speed collisions (example here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJHpUO-S0i8)). It's a lot more difficult to make sure that the occupants of the car survive. Helmet, HANS and four point safety belts might make it possible, air cushions might help, but with normal safety belts and no neck/head protection, it would be... unlikely to survive, say, crashing to a concrete wall at 110 km/h... and if you get your car under a 12-wheeler you're gonna go splat no matter what kind of carbon-fiber-unobtainium hull with shield projection your car has.



You're over simplifying. Take the crash test Fifth Gear did with a Renault Modus vs. a mid 90s Volvo estate. The estate was larger and heavier than the Modus by a mile, but came off worse due to the structural strength of the Modus which essentially used the Volvo as a crumple zone. Make a car with material that can absorb more of that energy, and you reduce chance of death.

Of course certain deceleration forces ensure death regardless of the dissipation of impact energy. But that car has the potential to be just as safe as a modern city car.


Good luck if you get into an accident in that thing.  And I feel like trying to cram anything bigger than a gallon of milk into it would max out its storage space. :p
Shouldn't be a huge problem...its designed like a race car basically.  Similar materials.  The biggest problem will be mass and how much it gets tossed around.  Structurally it should be reasonably tough based on how they say they constructed it.
I'm just envisioning running into anything bigger than a sedan in it.  And the mental picture I'm getting is something like Frogger meets monster truck.  Not pretty. :p

Try hitting an SUV in a modern saloon car. Same effect. Height difference is the killer.
Title: Re: 235 miles per gallon?
Post by: WeatherOp on July 06, 2008, 03:13:30 pm
Quote
As for the engine, the concept had a one-cylinder diesel engine producing 8.5 horsepower and 13.5 foot-pounds of torque

Wow, 2 more HP than my old go-cart. :p

Nice though, if they can get the price to around $8k like they said, it will sell like hotcakes.
Title: Re: 235 miles per gallon?
Post by: Stealth on July 06, 2008, 04:10:18 pm
haha

235 miles per gallon.

i'm lucky if i get 235 miles per TANK, and i have a 17 gallon tank :)
Title: Re: 235 miles per gallon?
Post by: vyper on July 06, 2008, 04:30:13 pm
Quote
As for the engine, the concept had a one-cylinder diesel engine producing 8.5 horsepower and 13.5 foot-pounds of torque

Wow, 2 more HP than my old go-cart. :p

Nice though, if they can get the price to around $8k like they said, it will sell like hotcakes.

8k? That's just over... wait

*does conversion to GBP*

Heh, that's less than my student loans. :lol: Awesome.
Title: Re: 235 miles per gallon?
Post by: Stealth on July 06, 2008, 04:57:54 pm
pshhh... 8.5HP for $8,000?

why not go for an engine almost 65 times more powerful, for only ~8 times as much :D :D :D
Title: Re: 235 miles per gallon?
Post by: Nuke on July 06, 2008, 05:51:28 pm
if you bothered to read the article the car would cost $40000 usd. the $8000 is merely the cost of the carbon fiber used in the car.
Title: Re: 235 miles per gallon?
Post by: BlueFlames on July 06, 2008, 07:12:44 pm
Quote
why not go for an engine almost 65 times more powerful, for only ~8 times as much

So that you don't suck through a $68.00 tank of fuel every two-hundred miles.
Title: Re: 235 miles per gallon?
Post by: colecampbell666 on July 06, 2008, 07:51:30 pm
haha

235 miles per gallon.

i'm lucky if i get 235 miles per TANK, and i have a 17 gallon tank :)
Although you must be getting less due to the reduced weight, half of your car being in the ditch where you died. *runs*
Title: Re: 235 miles per gallon?
Post by: Nuke on July 07, 2008, 01:34:04 am
while everyones out trying to get americans to buy fuel efficient cars, maybe we should also force them to be better drivers. then the safety concerns with ultra lightweight cars like this one would be less of a valid concern. once the switch over to vehicles like this one is complete, then a collision between two of them would probably leave you with an expensive repair bill. im not sure if there are presently any procedure to patch busted carbon fiber. i do know that when it fails it turns into a stringy mess, but i guess its better than getting impaled on a jagged piece of metal.
Title: Re: 235 miles per gallon?
Post by: Mars on July 07, 2008, 02:07:58 am
I think that licenses should be tougher to get, and that vehicles weighing over a certain amount (say much over a sedan) should require an additional license class that's additionally harder to get.
Title: Re: 235 miles per gallon?
Post by: Nuke on July 07, 2008, 05:26:48 am
:nod:
Title: Re: 235 miles per gallon?
Post by: BloodEagle on July 07, 2008, 02:53:56 pm
I think that licenses should be tougher to get, and that vehicles weighing over a certain amount (say much over a sedan) should require an additional license class that's additionally harder to get.

I'm not a politician. But I live in Florida, and I [expletive removed] approve this message.
Title: Re: 235 miles per gallon?
Post by: Topgun on July 07, 2008, 03:49:29 pm
I think that licenses should be tougher to get, and that vehicles weighing over a certain amount (say much over a sedan) should require an additional license class that's additionally harder to get.
A good Idea except that it's a bad idea. the government always screws up. what would end up happening is the good drivers will have a hard time getting a license and the bad ones will get one anyway.
just look at the airports.
Title: Re: 235 miles per gallon?
Post by: Bobboau on July 07, 2008, 05:26:09 pm
not to mention the government telling you how and where you may travel is a tenuous power at best.
Title: Re: 235 miles per gallon?
Post by: Stealth on July 07, 2008, 05:29:07 pm
while everyones out trying to get americans to buy fuel efficient cars, maybe we should also force them to be better drivers. then the safety concerns with ultra lightweight cars like this one would be less of a valid concern. once the switch over to vehicles like this one is complete, then a collision between two of them would probably leave you with an expensive repair bill. im not sure if there are presently any procedure to patch busted carbon fiber. i do know that when it fails it turns into a stringy mess, but i guess its better than getting impaled on a jagged piece of metal.
disagree.

99% of the time people that die in car wrecks die because of the impact, not because they're impaled by a jagged piece of metal.

if you remove all the metal that's between the driver and the object he hits, you take away the chances he'll walk away from the wreck.

...the main reason most motorcycle accidents are fatal.
Title: Re: 235 miles per gallon?
Post by: Nuke on July 07, 2008, 06:45:50 pm
perhaps, but i have a feeling people would be safer drivers if cars were equipped with explosive charges on impact triggers.
Title: Re: 235 miles per gallon?
Post by: Mars on July 07, 2008, 06:50:15 pm
You do make an excellent point
Title: Re: 235 miles per gallon?
Post by: phreak on July 07, 2008, 07:02:41 pm
it looks like the speedometer gets up to 180km/h, wishful thinking :p
Title: Re: 235 miles per gallon?
Post by: Bobboau on July 07, 2008, 07:30:46 pm
it could get up there, it might take an hour or two, but it has realy low drag, so it could get well up there.
Title: Re: 235 miles per gallon?
Post by: vyper on July 07, 2008, 08:33:49 pm
it looks like the speedometer gets up to 180km/h, wishful thinking :p

111MPH is believable for a aerodynamic, light car. You're making the mistake of seeing engine size as the b-all and end all of performance.
Title: Re: 235 miles per gallon?
Post by: Kosh on July 10, 2008, 09:16:25 am
Good luck if you get into an accident in that thing.  And I feel like trying to cram anything bigger than a gallon of milk into it would max out its storage space. :p


I don't think it is intended to carry anything except you back and forth from the suburbs to your office 30 miles away.
Title: Re: 235 miles per gallon?
Post by: Mars on July 10, 2008, 12:00:40 pm
So basically it fulfills the same role as a bus at many times the price... probably because Suburban Joe is too stupid or too scared or too ignorant to figure out a bus system.
Title: Re: 235 miles per gallon?
Post by: vyper on July 10, 2008, 01:23:54 pm
Or prefers the tranquillity,  personal safety, and enjoyment of using his own car.

You self righteous idiot.
Title: Re: 235 miles per gallon?
Post by: Mars on July 10, 2008, 01:47:21 pm
Since when is your own car safer than a bus? Particularly when you're driving a car the size of a motorcycle.
Title: Re: 235 miles per gallon?
Post by: Flipside on July 10, 2008, 02:27:39 pm
http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/2221201/british-boffins-build-electric

That's more along my lines, however. I'm not sure about the optional 'Engine Sound Generator' that you can get with it ;)
Title: Re: 235 miles per gallon?
Post by: Mongoose on July 10, 2008, 02:54:25 pm
So basically it fulfills the same role as a bus at many times the price... probably because Suburban Joe is too stupid or too scared or too ignorant to figure out a bus system.
I don't know about your suburbia, but mine has jack-all for bus service.

And that's an impressive piece of work, Flipside.  Do those engine sounds include the four-year-old yelling "Vroom vroom!" :p
Title: Re: 235 miles per gallon?
Post by: Nuke on July 10, 2008, 06:45:37 pm
most places ive been have had busses every half hour, the catch is you usually had to catch 2 to get anywhere in particular. but i say on average bus commutes in the 10 mile range will eat at least 2 hours of your day. doing the home-work-school-bar-home routine in phoenix was a 3 hour adventure (in terms of daily bus riding and waiting time). i was on 6 buses a day. Juneau is a little better being a coastal town. theres really only 3 or 4 routes (phoenix had to have over 500). and i can usually get anywhere in a half hour. but the town is an order of magnitude smaller. still this place has typically overcrowded buses, which is difficult when you need to carry tools around.  when time is money, or when you work long hours, either sort of system system is intolerable.
Title: Re: 235 miles per gallon?
Post by: Mars on July 10, 2008, 09:05:40 pm
Point taken... however I think you'd be rather strapped for space to fit any tool bigger than a drill in this thing.
Title: Re: 235 miles per gallon?
Post by: BloodEagle on July 10, 2008, 10:58:28 pm
So basically it fulfills the same role as a bus at many times the price... probably because Suburban Joe is too stupid or too scared or too ignorant to figure out a bus system.

Because of your advice, every U.S. citizen has decided to travel only by means of public transportation. There are now 290 million people attempting to utilize the already clogged public transportation systems. Industry halts, jobs go undone, workers go unpaid, and the entire economy collapses into itself. Causality is now shattered, and existence is a nightmare without a beginning or end.

---

Electric cars are the future past. We should examine and utilize older, more efficient technology.
Title: Re: 235 miles per gallon?
Post by: Roanoke on July 11, 2008, 05:09:05 am
Buses and Trains are great if you don't mind you're journey taking 3xlonger than it should. I went to look at buying a car and the quoted 3.5 hours took more like 6.

it looks like the speedometer gets up to 180km/h, wishful thinking :p

111MPH is believable for a aerodynamic, light car. You're making the mistake of seeing engine size as the b-all and end all of performance.

Actually, a light, low-power car is rubbish for top speed. That's why a Lotus Elise with the same power-to weight as an Imprezza STI tops out at 120. I'd doubt if that VW thing would crack 70mph. The gearing would be ridiculous, unless it had about 7 gears.
Title: Re: 235 miles per gallon?
Post by: vyper on July 11, 2008, 07:35:47 pm
Use the proper VVC and it's 145MPH.