Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Tyrian on July 22, 2008, 06:22:12 pm
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I've got another friend of mine asking me to help him build a rig. He wants a crusher of a gaming rig, a real God BoxTM. The budget: $4000. And before you ask, yes, that number is correct. Here's what I've come up with so far:
Case (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811103010) -- $119.99
Motherboard (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131284) EVGA Motherboard (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813188025) -- $349.99
ASUS Motherboard (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131321&Tpk=p5n64) -- $449.99
CPU (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115034) -- $1020.00
RAM (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820227298) New RAM (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820227293) -- $239.99 x2 (Maxing out the system board)
GPU (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130325) New GPU (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130365) -- $449.99 x2 (For SLI)
HDD (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136218) -- $89.99 x2 (For RAID 1)
DVD Burner (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827106057) -- $29.99
Monitor (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824254013) New Monitor (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824002359) -- $439.99
Power Supply (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817171016) New Power Supply (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371018) -- $299.99
Speakers (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16836131014) -- $19.99
Floppy Drive (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16821103116) -- $7.99
Wireless Adapter (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833124126) -- $49.99
DVI to HDMI Cable (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882123117) -- $57.99
Thermal Compound (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835186020&Tpk=thermal%2bcompound) -- $6.99
Win XP 64 Bit (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16832116378) -- $139.99
Total: $3742.85
First off, I know there's no keyboard or mouse listed. I always considered them a thing bought by feel, so I'm leaving that aspect up to him. The case and monitor are subject to change, again at his request.
Stuff that I'm concerned about are the speakers and power supply. As for the speakers, I'm worried about the sound quality. Can anyone vouch for these or recommend something better? Second, if we're going to SLI two 8800GTS cards, will that power supply be enough to drive them both? Keeping in mind that price is nearly no object here, any suggestions?
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Good. You've got $2000 left over to spend on a Bose sound system. :nod:
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£25 PC-Line speakers spensd the change on
whores a holiday :yes:
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only 4 gigs, i got 8 in mine :D
i have the exact same case and hard drive :D
a fine rig, will blow mine out of the water by a small margin. but id get a bigger screen. if youre doing sli you might as well have a very large and vary high res monitor. thats where sli truly shines. also with that kind of cashflow id get ddr3 instead of 2.
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Well, some of those choices are questionable, but I guess that's why you created this thread. :)
Motherboard (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131284)
Looks good enough, but note that the expensive motherboards don't really do anything for performance over a lot of sub-$150 ones. They have some extra features that he may or may not use.
CPU (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115034) -- $1020.00
Same as above; an overclocked $320 Q9450 will easily surpass this, and a stock speed Q9550 will be extremely close for half the price. If he has money to blow for the top model though, it certainly can't hurt.
GPU (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130325) -- $199.99 x2 (For SLI)
The 8800GTS has been superceded by newer cards. A single 4870 X2 or two GTX 280s are better options. Make sure you and your friend are aware of the shortcomings of multi GPU before committing to it though.
HDD (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136218) -- $89.99
A better idea is to get two of these, or a single bigger drive like a Hitachi 7K1000.
Monitor (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824254013) -- $179.99
That is a horrible choice for a $4k system. :p At that kind of price you should be mostly looking at the 30" 2560x1600 displays. The Dell 3007WFP-HC currently seems to be the best buy at $1200. The only reason to consider a lower resolution monitor is if you can't get a GPU configuration that provides acceptable performance in the games you play, in which case you should look at the 26" NEC 2690WUXi instead for a similar price.
As a general rule, you should try to spend at least 1/3 of the total system's price on the display. It is arguably the most important part of a computer.
Power Supply (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817171016) -- $49.99
That won't cut it at all for such a system. Some good choices are the PCP&C Silencer 750W or the Silverstone ST75ZF, or if you have money to spare, you could go all out and get one of 1KW models from Corsair, Silverstone or OCZ.
One thing to note: make sure you get one with the newer 8-pin PCIE connectors. The 6 to 8 pin adapters are very hard to find for individual sale. I haven't checked whether the PSUs I mentioned have them, but they probably should as many units were revised at some point to include them.
Speakers (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16836131014) -- $19.99
I can't say much about speakers (more of a headphone person), but you can probably do a lot better than that for a $4k system. Klipsch and Logitech are supposed to have some good models around $200 or so.
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for a system with such an absurd budget, that's pretty ****ty
start by going to a 64x os, and double your ram
lose that mobo, grab one with 3 pci express slots
(see http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813188024 )
8800's are old news now, get something with 3 way sli if you're really interested in making it a gaming rig, otherwise you're pissing in the wind
$400 cpu's and $1000 cpu's have one huge difference. their price. the gain you're going to get for 150% more money is moot, because unless the games support multi threading, its going to cap at 3ghz, which a dual core can do for hundreds less
raid a pair of raptors for the os in addition to the one you have
get a dvd burner with lighscribe
enbiggen the monitor. a lot.
550w psu? :wtf: a single 8800 is going to draw about 250 watts. i dont know what you expect to run with that piece of ****. dont forget that every single thing in that case is going to draw from it, and the mobo wont have a small load either
if you're going to buy $20 speakers, you're going to get $20 sound. trust me, i did the same thing with a $30 5.1 system
and unless you're going to be using onboard sound, get a sound card. soundblasters are relatively cheap and do the job
as it stands now, that setup is aweful
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Aren't Solid State Disk Drives in a position to challenge traditional HDD's with such a budget?
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Yeah, but they are way more expensive. Get a small one for games.
2X 4870X2 GPUs
Q9450
WAAAAAY Better monitor. (someone point him to AnandTech)
8 GB RAM (DDR3 if you can)
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550w psu? :wtf: a single 8800 is going to draw about 250 watts. i dont know what you expect to run with that piece of ****. dont forget that every single thing in that case is going to draw from it, and the mobo wont have a small load either
Well, the power usage is not quite that high, but your point stands. (especially since I doubt that a $35 550W unit can actually output its rated load continuously; the midrange Cooler Master PSUs are decent but not comparable to the top tier)
2X 4870X2 GPUs
4 GPU CF scaling is currently pretty bad and such a setup performs worse than a single one in many situations. I would wait to see if that improves any by the time the 4870 X2 is actually out.
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when you're looking at 130w for the cpu, and at least 150 for each 8800 (probably much more), thats 430 right there, plus the mobo and hard/optical drives
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take it from me, i build servers every day, and i've built more personal, gaming computers than most everyone here. a few things you want to consider:
1) monitor - you can pay $50.00 more and get a 22" widescreen, if size is all you're concerned with
2) power supply - that won't cut it at all. at least go with a better name, like Antec, and do your research on what the power draw is going to be across each rail... buy your power supply accordingly. a 2000watt power supply means nothing if it's all on the 12v rails, and you need 5v, etc. etc. etc.
quad-core is the future, it really is. in some of my tests, a single quad core performed MORE than TWICE as fast as 2x dual cores. it's got to do with caching, but anyway, good pick... keep in mind that the processor alone will draw 175watts easily AT IDLE.
you think THAT'S bad - the graphics cards will draw probably a good 300watts between the two of them. under load, expect to see 400-500watts.
that means that graphics cards and CPU alone, you're going to need a power supply capable of supporting 700watts RMS (continuous). factor in fans, lights, motherboard, hard drives, optical drives, etc... and that number gets dangerously close to 1000Watts.
3) hard drive - get two of them. a computer that powerful, you ought to have RAID, if only for bragging rights :) and if not, then you want a backup drive anyway
4) floppy drive - for what? computers haven't come with floppy drives in years. you don't need them.
5)
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550w psu? :wtf: a single 8800 is going to draw about 250 watts.
Well, the power usage is not quite that high,
not really man. those things draw a lot. two of them? that's a hell of a lot :)
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when you're looking at 130w for the cpu, and at least 150 for each 8800 (probably much more), thats 430 right there, plus the mobo and hard/optical drives
If he actually gets 8800GTSs (which are a bad choice for such a rig), they're fairly power efficient, like 100W or so at typical loads. The Intel motherboards don't use that much power either. The only other major source of power usage would be a large number (5+) of hard drives.
My system, for example, uses a fairly low 290W by the actual components, as I described in the other thread down the page. The computer he's looking to build will require more than that, but one of the high quality 700W+ models will easily cover it.
he wasn't exaggerating.
a single 8800 draws, if i'm remembering correctly, WELL OVER 300 watts under load. and about 200 watts at idle
You're probably looking at a reading taken from the total system draw (which often also needs to be adjusted for the PSU's efficiency), as your numbers are way off.
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wikipedia says 145
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wikipedia says 145
That is the official maximum TDP given by Nvidia, but it doesn't reach that under any real world situation. Most sites have shown it to be less than that in practice.
This is a little beside the point though. Obviously, his existing PSU choice would have been insufficient in any case.
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I'm now in the process of reselecting some of the parts. A few of the items (monitor, speakers) were in there as placeholders.
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Q9450
Biostar TForce I45
Radeon HD4870
Corsair HX1000
2x2GB DDR2 1000
I'd say two 64GB SSDs in RAID0 for OS, followed by two 1TB HDDs in RAID1 for storage
WinVista Ultimate 64-bit
Decent sound system ($250)
Logitech G15 keyboard (the new one, where the LCD is fixed)
Logitech G_ mouse (depends on preference... I'd personally go G3 since I like the style much more and it's not crying because it has a dozen buttons)
Dell 24" LCD
Petra's Tech CoolKit Elite (http://www.petrastechshop.com/pecoel.html)
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I've updated the specs for the rig, and I'm running a little close on money, but it turns out that my friend already has a set of speakers and a mouse.
I still have a question, though. Should he consider running a 64-bit version of XP or a 64-bit version of Vista? I've had nothing but bad experiences with Vista, but XP doesn't support DX10.
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Depends whether you like Vista more than XP as you say dx10 will play a part when it eventually becomes the minimum requirement too. What are the main differences between 32 and 64 bit? My rig can definitely handle it but why should i upgrade?
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64 allows basically unlimited RAM, although it has some driver issues. (very few now, as it's slowly becoming the norm)
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What's the 32bit ram limit?
I've got 3 slots free ;7
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2.8 GB or so.
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The difference between 32 bit and 64 bit is that 64 bit generally runs faster, because you can handle more data at once. Also, it is the only way to make your computer recognize more than 3GB of RAM, unless you have an Intel motherboard that supports the /PAE switch. The reason 32 bit systems can't see the 4th gig of RAM is because the memory addresses that would normally point there are reserved for the BIOS. The /PAE switch, which is put in your boot.ini (only if running XP, I think), changes the way an Intel motherboard handles that last block of addresses. It redirects them to point at your RAM, enabling your machine to use that 4th gig.
The downside is that in 64 bit OSes, you lose the ability to run 16 bit programs, which is actually a huge problem. While most programs you run nowadays are 32 bit, almost all of them still use 16 bit installers. So if you buy a 32 bit program that says "64 bit compatible," it will run, but you might not actually be able to install it. In most cases, though the 64 bit OS will silently substitute a 32 bit installer in place of the 16 bit one, however, I have run into instances where it doesn't. (I was installing a $300 voice recognition package on a friend's 64 bit OS, and the silent 32 bit installer substitution failed, making it impossible to run that program.)
In theory, you can get around this problem by virtualizing a 32 bit OS and running the installer on that, but you'll need VMWare Tools in order to run it on the virtual machine, and set the install directory to the physical disk, not the virtual one.
I guess the short answer is that it's really up to you. It depends on whether or not you think the benefits are worth the risks. And before I forget, you should make sure your CPU supports a 64 bit instruction set. If it doesn't, you'll have to upgrade to one that does, else it won't work.
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2 gb is enough for now. When the world catches up. I'll upgrade. :nod:
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40% of people who complain about vista would have complained just as loud during the 9x/NT/ME to Xp switch.
20% of people who complain about vista jump on the 'lol it sucks' bandwagon.
15% of people who complain about vista had legitimate issues due to 3rd party drivers and hardware (read: not Microsoft) not being as backwards compatible as thought.
15% of people knew that it was going to be a rough transition from xp onwards, but understand that it was a necessary progression and didn't complain.
10% other.
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i just realized winxp pro 64 is actually fairly decent as far as windowses goes. has most of the low level modernizations that vista has, super stable codebase based of server 2003. its easy to crack. that part is important.
now i need to figure out how to hack my oem windows vista ultimate edition to work on my newly refunctional old computer. i need to run vista on there so i can use my 3d glasses with the new drivers, which are only available for vista 32.
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i don't use vista, there is something about that program that makes mysterious errors when you don't need them. it might be my end, however vista remains off my machine until microsoft comes up with an os designed specifically for internet and gaming experience.
4gb issue, are you sure?. i just bought some 2x2gb ddr2 800mhz patriot low latency. i dont want to have the problems your described on my new machine that is still only half built. it would be a big waste of money.
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Tiny :bump:, but before I pitch this new rig to my friend, I would like to know if the changes I made with respect to mobo, RAM, GPU, PSU, and monitor are beneficial, or if anyone has any better suggestions.
As always, any feedback is much appreciated.
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4gb issue, are you sure?. i just bought some 2x2gb ddr2 800mhz patriot low latency. i dont want to have the problems your described on my new machine that is still only half built. it would be a big waste of money.
Yes, there is an issue with 4 GB RAM on 32-bit OSes.
Tyrian, Go for the 4870, I still think it'll be better, and cheaper, as benchmarks say. Get two 64 GB SSD HDDs and put them on RAID0 for the OS/games, and two 640 GB on RAID1 for storage, you don't need that CPU, the 9450 is good enough for a high end system, and easily overclockable to that speed.
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Tyrian, Go for the 4870, I still think it'll be better, and cheaper, as benchmarks say.
They're cheaper, but not better. The GTX 280 is also down to $400 at this point.
Also, keep in mind that we're dealing with a $4000 budget here. I've seen these cases before and top performance rather than bang for the buck is typically the primary consideration for such buyers.
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Good point. Ditch the CPU, and use the extra 500$ to add the HDDs I suggested, that will give a huge performance boost.
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Windows XP 64 Bit is a 64bit emulated piece of crap from what i hear. BTW, Are you building a server? because from the looks of it your building yourself a wannabe cray supercomputer. BTW, if your gunna make a server and spend a GRAND on a processor, AMD Opteron is better then Core Duo. ;)
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a note on Vista.
the only real problems with vista (not driver stuff...) has to do with the way it handles users. as long as you keep it a single-user setup, you should be fine.
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For those who have asked, this is not a server. It's a gaming rig with a $4000 budget.
What I'm most worried about is the motherboard. I usually prefer to deal with ASUS boards, but for this one, I had to use an EVGA. Has anyone had any experience with that brand's motherboards? (I know that they are well known for their GPUs.)
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nothing wrong with evga boards other than some series not handling s.m.a.r.t. data and occasionally giving off some wonky temp readings (but thats what 3rd party 5.25" devices are for)
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Will the improper handling of SMART data cause any problems with the hard drives, like saying they're about to fail, when they're really fine? And will the potentially weird temp readings trigger a thermal failsafe shutdown? (I've had that happen before with certain ATI cards being run on particular Northbridge chipsets.)
These issues are of concern to me because I'm going back to university this fall and I'm not going to be around in the event some part starts misbehaving. I really need the motherboard (and everything else) to be solid.
EDIT: This isn't one of the boards that misreports SMART and temp data, is it?
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they flat out don't handle it. you can use something like hdtune to assess the status of the drive, but it cant give you the temperature or erroraneous passes logs or anything
the temperature passing to windows is only in that module, the overheat and everything are fine
http://www.xoxide.com/nzxt-sentry-1-fan-controller.html
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Based on the fact that a board doesn't handle data the way it should, I'm a little leery of putting it in any system. If designers know a board won't be able to handle data like SMART and temp data, they should filter it out. And if that data has to be filtered out, it makes me question the designers even more for the fact that they can't get their board to work with semi-standard data streams. I'm not getting a good feeling here...So I've gone back to an ASUS board, this time the P5N64WS. Link is in the first post.
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I would stay away from anything that doesn't handle basic functionality like SMART. Such a board is simply defective. However, EVGA's boards are basically reference Nvidia models and I highly doubt that all of them have a problem like this. It's probably limited to a specific board or series.
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hence why i said some series
and to be honest, i'd rather have a motherboard that doesn't tell me that the hard drive has 2 bad bits at the end of the platter, than a motherboard that claims to support 3 way sli with only 2 pci-ex16 ports that also costs 50% more for no particular reason, and is based off the same model that the evga's are
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The fact that I get half the gaming performance you will get for a fourth of the price is fairly disturbing.
DON'T GET CORE 2 EXTREME! YOU'RE WASTING YOUR MONEY IF ALL YOU DO IS GAMES!
Anyway, a fast Core 2 Quad, RAID0 gaming hard drives, 4GB DDR3, a tri-sli motherboard, 2x GTX 280 video cards to start off, 1200W PSU, RAID1 storage drives, and Vista 64 Ultimate. That's your $4000 gaming monster for you.
I'm absolutely serious; get two (or three, if you are REALLY crazy) GTX 280 cards. With this budget you really don't need to worry about value; only performance.
Pull this off right and your rig will be able to flat max-out Crysis at a solid 40fps. Not that I actually recommend that game, of course.
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That's what I've been saying all along.
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Summaries help, too.