Hard Light Productions Forums
Community Projects => The FreeSpace Upgrade Project => Topic started by: blowfish on August 03, 2008, 01:25:03 pm
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In my experience, 3D shockwaves have been a very controversial thing. Some like them, but many believe that they are unrealistic and do not. That is why I suggest putting 3D shockwaves in their own VP, so that they can be turned off and on easily, based on a user's preference :)
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the idea of 3d shockwaves shouldn't be controversial what so ever, space is used on the principles of a 3d axis plane. x, y and z. their is no discussion needed for that, to go against it would mean your discounting what physics has taught you. however if it is a modders nightmare to create such a thing then i support them if they say "it cant be done" which means it cant be done. at least not for now, but some point in the future... maybe.
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to go against it would mean your discounting what physics has taught you.
*cough* This is FreeSpace.
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lol no **** sherlock. of course its freespace! :lol: which explains the part of if it can be done or not.
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no **** sherlock.
Dig deeper, Watson.
The point being that too much realism isn't funny anymore. If we want to take it to the extreme, we should include things such as proper Newtonian flight models, realistic weapons instead of "laser" bolts traveling at 100 km/h, limited fuel supplys, radiation poisoning symptoms caused by improper or damaged materials on the ship, no subspace, and so on.
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Subspace can be realistic.
If you want real realism though, go play HomePlanet Gold. It is a realistic sci-fi game.
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Well, realism aside, I have heard from a number of people who don't like 3D shockwaves.
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Would it not be possible to make a model to replace it yourself, and upload it somewhere?
Also, real shockwaves would be 3d, but they would also not look as cool as any of the shockwaves in fs/fs2/fso.
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Real shockwaves would just be clear heatwaves with maybe some smoke. that would be cool
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Realistic shortwaves may become possible with shaders. IMHO they'd look much better than a bunch of weird looking blue rings sticking out at angles.
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Space distortion shockwave effect
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Well really in space there would be no shockwave since a shockwave requires a medium with a defined particle velocity which the shock wavefront exceeds. Being in a vacuum, this doesn't work so well. (there are shockwaves in space, but they generally involve nebular gas and really can't be seen unless you take a long exposure picture from several light years away.)
realistically, you would have an expanding sphere of grains of ship hull or bomb shell casing all traveling away from the explosion site very quickly, which would look not-at-all interesting compared to the blue bubbles.
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I still think it should be a clear heatwave effect, realism aside.
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Well really in space there would be no shockwave since a shockwave requires a medium with a defined particle velocity which the shock wavefront exceeds. Being in a vacuum, this doesn't work so well. (there are shockwaves in space, but they generally involve nebular gas and really can't be seen unless you take a long exposure picture from several light years away.)
realistically, you would have an expanding sphere of grains of ship hull or bomb shell casing all traveling away from the explosion site very quickly, which would look not-at-all interesting compared to the blue bubbles.
Exploding ships would become their own atmosphere... there'd be few enough grains, as the ship would be vaporizing as it explodes.
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not really. its in the pressures and thermal equalibrium. The ships don't have enough mass to make a physically realistic gas, and you need to be moving through a pre-existing gas to make a shock wave. Anyway, I like the explosion effects and accept them with the non newtonian fighter physics.
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Anyway, I like the explosion effects and accept them with the non newtonian fighter physics.
Same. Its more fun that way.
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I always liked 3d shockwaves because they gave a sense of depth to the explosions.
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the idea of 3d shockwaves shouldn't be controversial what so ever, space is used on the principles of a 3d axis plane. x, y and z. their is no discussion needed for that, to go against it would mean your discounting what physics has taught you. however if it is a modders nightmare to create such a thing then i support them if they say "it cant be done" which means it cant be done. at least not for now, but some point in the future... maybe.
Yeah, and physics dictates that big explosions in space have giant, blue 2d rings expanding on different axes from them. :rolleyes:
IMO space distortion would be the best idea.
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Honestly in absence of space distortion effects, I think I prefer the 2D shockwave... the 3D ones were cool at first, but the more I've seen it (I must have been seeing it for several years now :eek2:) the more ludicrous it looks.
Not from a physics standpoint necessarily... it's just... I've seen real (not Hollywood) explosions on TV, nukes and such, and blastwaves don't look like that.
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A space distortion shockwave? Yes shockwaves can happen in space. But more of in space you'd probably just see the explosion with the shockwaves just being the absolute expanse of the blast. If there was no shockwaves in space, that'd be like saying you can't see a nuke go off in space. Just because there's no medium for a shockwave in a vacuum doesn't mean that what's exploding doesn't have a medium for a shockwave itself. In space you probably just get different kinds of shockwaves more based on energy like radiation. Even still, what prevents atmosphere based shockwaves in space wont prevent other kinds of shockwaves in space.
For information on shockwaves in space click here. (http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/phy00/phy00915.htm) It's an interesting read.
Also, shockwaves are spherical...going in all directions. I can't wait for the day when we can have 3d spherical shockwaves because of shaders (you could do it through other methods too, though many have suggested it'd look best when done with shaders).
(http://www.dphotojournal.com/wp-content/shockwave.jpg)
This was a side shot from a slow-mo camera recording a dude firing a 44 magnum. I was actually looking for an animated gif showing off what a spherical shockwave with a center flare up and explosion followed by a spherical transparent shockwave. I couldn't find it obviously :(
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Just in case it was unclear I am definitely in favor of space distortion effects.
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Just in case it was unclear I am definitely in favor of space distortion effects.
:yes:
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space shock waves occur when a whole lot of gas moving en masse faster than the individual particle speeds crashes into a whole lot of gas that is moving slower than the individual particle speeds. Then you get supernova rings etc. A ship blowing up, or a nuke going off would look like a lot of little hot pieces of varying sizes traveling away from eachother at very high speeds since it does not impact any fluidized medium to slow it down. (it will eventually but space shock waves are usually measured in light years, meaning you have to wait at least a few years for the thing to form anyway.)
A quick 2d simulation of this is to look at water coming out of a faucet and striking the bottom of a sink. There will be a disk of high speed water that forms a shock front where it transitions to low speed water. The blast would look like the center bit without the shock front.
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A quick 2d simulation of this is to look at water coming out of a faucet and striking the bottom of a sink. There will be a disk of high speed water that forms a shock front where it transitions to low speed water. The blast would look like the center bit without the shock front.
Nice description.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/40/FS_Explosion.gif)
Reminds me of the classic fs1 shockwaves. This shockwave would be totally cooler if it were a lot higher quality, had a flare up, and were 3d.
BTW I don't know if this thread has something crappy in it. (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,46305.0.html) There was no screenshots, but pertains to the 2d shockwave desire.
Anyway, my screenshots to the rescue again.
Dab's 3d shockwaves are great as shown here.
(http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/2364/90677900js2.jpg)
Dab's 3d shockwaves lose appeal when they do the random direction thing as shown here.
(http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/6397/98063500hq5.jpg)
A 100% spherical shockwave would get rid of this and look cooler...preferably. A 2d one could take it's place too.
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Reminds me of the classic fs1 shockwaves. This shockwave would be totally cooler if it were a lot higher quality, had a flare up, and were 3d.
You might want to take a look at one of the Inferno shockwaves, that one has a flare up.
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Can someone pop up a screenshot of an inferno shockwave? I just visited the inferno forums and don't want to sift through tons of threads and hundreds of screenshots for one thing. So far all of the inferno screenshots are of ships that are doing everything but exploding.
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In my experience, 3D shockwaves have been a very controversial thing. Some like them, but many believe that they are unrealistic and do not. That is why I suggest putting 3D shockwaves in their own VP, so that they can be turned off and on easily, based on a user's preference :)
I would like this as well, because 3D shockwaves are always active as long as the pof file exists in any Media VP. I prefer seeing all shockwaves facing the camera (original [V] method).
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My problem with Space Distortion Effects is that, if intended as a replacement for the big blue ring, it would be a change in style/art direction, which is not really the purpose of the FSUP. as an addition it may warrant some experimenting.
As far as 2d rings go, I see what S-99 is saying - but I'm unsure how to solve it. the reason 2d rings always looked right, and functioned as a simulation of seeing a spherical shock wave (in a general sense) is because they were 2d and were always perpendicular to the camera.
As I understand it, the 3d waves are objects, and have no orientation in particular, which means that sometimes they look great and/or reminiscent of V's, and sometimes they look like star trek 6-style praxis waves. Not a bad look, mind you, but not perfectly achieved, either, and a little jarring, particularly when the detonation happens at an angle where you can see the 'cross section' in it's entirety.
But I'm at a loss as to what to do about it? is there a middle ground? would "always perpendicular" shockwaves look better if rendered in 3d? I don't know if it's possible in the technical sense, I just wonder if that's the sort of compromise people would like to see tested.
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3D shockwaves really only look bad when viewed from a low angle...
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What'd be really cool is if there was an fs1 style shockwave, but in 3d. It'd just be that semitransparent blue shockwave as a huge sphere. That'd solve the problem of shockwaves only looking good at a certain angle. Plus is it just me or does a capship in fs1 retail look a lot cooler than a capship in fs2 retail blowing up?
The other thing is i know spherical shockwaves are hard to make as i have read many times on the hlpbb. How do i put this? I'm not making a request, it's just a cool what if scenario.
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that is what my original test POF was.
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A spherical shockwave model with a shader that decreases the alpha as each face's normal approaches parallel to the players view would be awesome. would mean you can only see the color of the shockwave at the edges so it would have that "expanding ring" effect from all angles... that or just use the current one but script it to always be aligned at a right angle to the players viewport.
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I'd say just use a "shell" of blue that gets more transparent as it expands.
EDIT: Hm... I think I'll try making this. The shockwave already fades out at the end. I'll just whip a sphere and make a blue texture with a bit of an alpha channel. Then I just have to find the right place to put it.
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A spherical shockwave model with a shader that decreases the alpha as each face's normal approaches parallel to the players view would be awesome. would mean you can only see the color of the shockwave at the edges so it would have that "expanding ring" effect from all angles... that or just use the current one but script it to always be aligned at a right angle to the players viewport.
Never thought of it that way...although I suppose that would be how it's 'supposed' to work. I've never seen a shader behave that way before. Would definitely fit the criterion though.
Any takers?
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I've never been bothered by the shockwaves in 3.6.10 they look great...regardless of the angle.
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Well, I can't get it to work. I't won't take the texture.
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I'd say just use a "shell" of blue that gets more transparent as it expands.
EDIT: Hm... I think I'll try making this. The shockwave already fades out at the end. I'll just whip a sphere and make a blue texture with a bit of an alpha channel. Then I just have to find the right place to put it.
That sounds really cool :yes:
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I'd say just use a "shell" of blue that gets more transparent as it expands.
EDIT: Hm... I think I'll try making this. The shockwave already fades out at the end. I'll just whip a sphere and make a blue texture with a bit of an alpha channel. Then I just have to find the right place to put it.
That sounds really cool :yes:
Well someone else will have to do it because:
Well, I can't get it to work. I't won't take the texture.
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My problem with Space Distortion Effects is that, if intended as a replacement for the big blue ring, it would be a change in style/art direction, which is not really the purpose of the FSUP
I believe this is the overall issue that we are all touching on.
The FSUP is for adding more definition to Volition's original assets, not making them look, feel, or behave different. The preservation of the original look-and-feel is paramount to keeping the Upgrade Project true to its namesake -- an "upgrade."
When I see a shockwave appear at an angle "Praxis Style" for no explicable reason other than "the game engine randomly oriented it that way," it is too different from the original game. Thus, it is more modification than upgrade.
The idea is to resemble the original game, right?
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They got included because dab made some 3d shockwaves that were so radically cool everyone desired them. So while they were radically different, no one realized this at the time and blindly put them in the mvp's. Even i was caught up with the cool factor, still sort of am except for that random angle stuff.
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if it weren't for the random angle bit i reckon they are a good match, personally. It should be relatively simple to align them to the player view so they are consistent.
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No shockwaves, just hi-speed debris and a little bitty flash (http://www.wwheaton.com/waw/mad/mad12.html)
I'd almost like to see this, if only in a mod or something.
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They got included because dab made some 3d shockwaves that were so radically cool everyone desired them. So while they were radically different, no one realized this at the time and blindly put them in the mvp's. Even i was caught up with the cool factor, still sort of am except for that random angle stuff.
Pretty good summary of what happened. Heck, there was even a vote on whether the ones in the Media VPs would retain the blue look or be a fiery red. So much for preservation. But still, I do like the effect except for the random angle thing. It probably wouldn't be too hard to fix that, since I'm pretty sure that the original code had the shockwaves always perpendicular to the player.
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No shockwaves, just hi-speed debris and a little bitty flash (http://www.wwheaton.com/waw/mad/mad12.html)
I'd almost like to see this, if only in a mod or something.
It's how they're done in colony wars.
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No shockwaves, just hi-speed debris and a little bitty flash (http://www.wwheaton.com/waw/mad/mad12.html)
I'd almost like to see this, if only in a mod or something.
It's how they're done in colony wars.
I realized today, with WMC's debris speed code and the flashy explosions code that Wanderer posted a vid of again today, you could probably do that already.