Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: colecampbell666 on August 12, 2008, 06:05:47 pm
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If the Shivans had never come?
Personally I think that the Terrans would have won, they seemed to be more technologically advanced; they had the Orion before the Zods had the Typhon, they actually had cruisers, not just failures, and they had better fighters.
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Yeah, the zods would have gotten trashed, eventually.
They'd bring several Orions into orbit and reduce V.Prime to slag over the course of 13 hours months.
Ok, jk on the last part, but yeah. Apollo > A-n00b-is.
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If the Shivans had never come?
Personally I think that the Terrans would have won, they seemed to be more technologically advanced; they had the Orion before the Zods had the Typhon, they actually had cruisers, not just failures, and they had better fighters.
Why are people always ragging on the Aten? I love that thing. It's a good Medium Cruiser. Weak on the underbelly, but most Vasudans are. Turrets are weak too. But I like the Vasudans in general . . . . And heck, they've got a freighter (Ma'at?) that doubles as a Cruiser. Kapow! It sounds like the Vasudans were on the loosing end of it though.
I think it would've been a bit like the Pacific war during WW2. The Vasudans would've got pushed back, but it would've cost the Terrans a hell of a lot in the end.
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The Terrans had superior warships (the only one they considered even in the competition is the Typhon), but the Vasudans had more colonies that were further apart.
Either way, both races would have been diminished by the end of the war, like the countries of Europe after WWI
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Also, the Zods seemed to be holding on simply by superior numbers, as indicated by the abundance of colonies and the population of Vasuda.
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The Vasudans remind me of the Japanese in WWII (despite their Egyptian naming scheme). As was previously stated, I imagine a long campaign with heavy losses.
Terrans have the edge in mass manufacturing and weaponry while the Vasudans seem to have the experience of having been in space longer than Terrans and are better at maximizing the output from resources they have.
I honestly see the two sides as close to balanced, but with the Terrans able to mass produce better ships and weapons. In fact, the Vasudans seem cut out for a defensive war (good at excavation (which I assume is mining) and management of resources) while the Terrans are optimized for an offensive war.
The outcome would entirely depend on whether or not the Vasudans could hold off the Terrans long enough for the Terrans to no longer be able to fight.
Vasudans have, of course, always excelled at excavation and the efficient use and transport of resources.
It’s also been speculated that Vasudans were originally forced prematurely into space in order to gain the
resources needed for their species’ survival. Vasudans also excel at general engineering and efficient, highspeed
ship propulsion systems.
During the T-V War
(later called the 14-Year War) Terrans have excelled
(over Vasudans) in the area of mass manufacturing
and weaponry.
FS Reference Bible
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Overall, based on the types and numbers of ships and weapons about to come into service on the Terran side, and absent Lieutenant McCarthy to give the Vasudans a leg up in their researches (as he was essentially triggered by the Shivans), and the fact that the GTA has just managed to partially succeed in Operation Thresher and has a strong foothold on Vasuda's doorstep, I would say that the Vasudans are literally months away from a serious defeat, if not losing the war.
Because assume the GTA got the Herc, Medusa, Ursa, and various primaries and non-Interceptor missiles and bombs into service, even if these ships don't have shields, and perhaps a few months more down the line fighter intersystem drives, perhaps not.
Either way, the risk of the GTA punching enough ships through the Vasuda-Antares node blockade to drop a few Harbinger bombs on Vasuda Prime from orbit has increased exponentially. And this is something they were apparently willing to do.
Like as not, Vasuda Prime was going to take it on the chin from somebody. The only question was whether it would be 13 hours of bombardment by the Lucifer, or 1 hour of bombardment by a GTA Ursa squadron.
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Anyone know that 'Twist of Fate' mod? It's about the Shivans never comming. I only seen a demo released though.
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Oh, a speaking of the PVC Aten, it would be quite deadly without shields even on the underside, because the laser is very fast. Might be able to destroy the underbelly turret in time but you will be very severely hurt.
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The Avenger cannon would have spelled doom for the PVN, unless they could come up with something more powerful than even that.
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Not the Avenger, the Prometheus. Unless that was a joint TV project and I missed the memo on that.
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AFAIK it was only Terran. So yeah, the Prometheus would have kicked so much Vasudan ass that they would probably have surrendered at some point.
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Let's not forget the Hercules ... The Vasudans didn't really produce many new fighters, did they? The regime was corrupt anyway.
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Let's not forget the Hercules ... The Vasudans didn't really produce many new fighters, did they? The regime was corrupt anyway.
Well, there was the Thoth. But a Thoth armed with Vasudan Light Lasers hardly poses a threat to an Apollo with Prometheus cannons. Or a Valkyrie with Banshees. But the Vasudan-only Ulysses might have been something interesting.
The regime was corrupt, so the war might even have ended with a Vasudan coup overthrowing the government. Though it might not end the war, a change of government would probably do something to affect the front lines.
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Might even still have ended in peace. Let's not forget 14 years of war is a big strain on any economy, and sooner or later the public will get tired of it.
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I seem to remember a defunct campaign along these lines (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,5910.0.html)...
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Yes...the idea of an alternative future looks interesting, I myself have one or twice spread my mind into that topic, but there's no campaign about it.
Damn!
also any species witch is designed to be an enemy of terrans is also bound to be vanquished and therefor it's armaments, ships and any other technology should be inferior to terran, just because we are terrans and because a story with a happy ending is mandatory for gaming developers world.
really a shame, what about a horrible HORRIBLE ending for terrans sometime ^^
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Well, there's Planet of the Apes...
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Oh I read a story based in the Command and Conquer universe about the end of Tiberian Twilight ( NOT Tiberium Wars ) where the Scrin defeat and eradicate the entire human race. How they do it and why is actually a horrible end of mankind.
Then there's the 'Last of Mankind' FS fanfic.
Try the Twist of Fate demo if you wanna see how a no-Shivan FS1 would be.
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Well, there's Planet of the Apes...
Which in the final movie had humans and apes co-existing peacefully.
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Let's not forget Blue Planet. Although the Shivans still came in in the other dimension, they destroyed Earth and made the Vasudans extinct while killing off most of the Terrans and eliminating the GTA completely, unlike the canon events where Earth was not destroyed, only cut off.
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What? This is about if the Shivans had never come.
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What? This is about if the Shivans had never come.
Fine.
I was just wondering...is Altair closer to Earth or Vasuda Prime?
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Go check the nodemap in the wiki.
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/me checks the Official Volition Node Map.
Perhaps the Vasudans might have discovered the Ancient technology of subspace tracking on Altair and use it to their advantage, although I don't know in what sense.
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Altair was not explored at the time of the Great War... So maybe, pushed from Vasuda Prime and Aldebaran, hiding in a corner of the Altair system, a group of Vasudan scientists uncover some random Ancient tech and blow the Terrans straight to hell.
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ancient ruins where just.. well that as I understand.. ruins, so there's nothing important or technological on that discovery I guess.
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also any species witch is designed to be an enemy of terrans is also bound to be vanquished and therefor it's armaments, ships and any other technology should be inferior to terran, just because we are terrans and because a story with a happy ending is mandatory for gaming developers world.
really a shame, what about a horrible HORRIBLE ending for terrans sometime ^^
Actually, in Star Control I/II (rereleased in open source as the Ur Quan Masters (http://sc2.sourceforge.net/)), Humans were basically as useful for their allies as Italians were during WWII. Basically, some race came to them and told them "Listen, boys, you've got evil mofos who wants to enslave the universe out there so we want you to join us into kicking their asses. That's not a question. So since your race seems too stupid to actually travel further than the Sol System, we're going to give you an handful of technologies in order to make you actually helpful. Somehow." So the humans join the Alliance as the second weakest race out of 8 for the Alliance, and even though they are pathetic at war they still you manage to drag two other races TO the hierarchy, the Vux because one of the Terran admiral made some kind of diplomatic gaffe (arguably, the Vux would have joined the Hierarchy without this), the Androsynth because humans enslaved them.
Basically, Humans are one of the worst race of this universe. But by the end of SC I, they are utterly crushed (as all the Alliance), banished on earth forever, and forbid to use any space travel.
One of the best space opera scenario I know of. Even better than FS.
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*snip*
Lies! Terrible and dreadful lies! How dare you allow such trash to spew forth from thy mouth, heretic! Humans are the beacon of hope, the shining light of truth in an ever darkening world of lies and heresy. Without the Emperor, humanity would have fallen into barbarism, turning on each other in mindlessness and idiocitiyness. Humans are meant to be the masters of the galaxy! Heed my words, heretic and seek forgiveness from the God Emperor!
Peace through overwhelming ownage of the Enemy!
Also, FS is the best in the universe! It is a holy relic wrought from the Hand of the Emperor Himself, to bring us His Holy Word, and His Holy Will, manifest in a manner easily understood by us unworthy beings!
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Lies! Terrible and dreadful lies! How dare you allow such trash to spew forth from thy mouth, heretic! Humans are the beacon of hope, the shining light of truth in an ever darkening world of lies and heresy. Without the Emperor, humanity would have fallen into barbarism, turning on each other in mindlessness and idiocitiyness. Humans are meant to be the masters of the galaxy! Heed my words, heretic and seek forgiveness from the God Emperor!
Peace through overwhelming ownage of the Enemy!
Also, FS is the best in the universe! It is a holy relic wrought from the Hand of the Emperor Himself, to bring us His Holy Word, and His Holy Will, manifest in a manner easily understood by us unworthy beings!
Who, Goober?
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Actually, in Star Control I/II (rereleased in open source as the Ur Quan Masters (http://sc2.sourceforge.net/)), Humans were basically as useful for their allies as Italians were during WWII.
Funny, that's not really the way it was presented in the games. Human Cruisers were presented as the backbone of the Alliance fleets, and they actually are some of the better ships in the game because of their weapons; fire-and-forget nuclear missile, does four damage a shot, repeat several hundred times. It's not exactly pretty or subtle, but it definitely works. (In UQM the only ship I find to be more useful than the Crusier is the Spathi Eluder...and of course the Chmmr Avatar, but the Avatar is supposed to be an ultra-cheesy endgame weapon.)
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Well, I was pushing my point a little too much. By the end of the war, true enough, the Earthling cruisers were the backbone of the Alliance fleet. But still, they were not very good, and they were effective only by their sheer number (and because they had so much nuclear missiles in stock
Humans fought bravely in the war, producing a relatively crude but numerous and flexible fleet that fought on multiple fronts, while also providing many officers and crew for allied fleets. Those who had chosen to maintain the Peace Vaults in the first days of the Peacekeeping Army were vindicated; even the Chenjesu were shocked by the total destructive power represented by the sheer number of the old alliances' nuclear warheads and the United States' half-finished orbital laser defense systems. Primitive as they were, refitted for ship-to-ship combat they became the reliable and ubiquitous weapons system of the Earthling Cruiser
Still, they did really major mistakes :
The speed with which Humans were thrust into such a perilous situation without even a basic experience in dealing with other sentient races may have contributed to such diplomatic blunders as the disastrous Human/Syreen crew exchange, an accidental human attack on an Arilou fleet, and the Great Insult that poisoned relations with the VUX. Nonetheless the Human industrial base became crucial in the war effort...
I said there were the like the Italians of WWII because they brought two new enemies to the Alliance (Androsynth, VUX), but for their skill, they're more like the Romanian in WWII : sheer number over quality (between 1/4 and 1/3 of the Axis troops on the Eastern front were Romanian I think).
While the cruiser is pretty effective to damage an Ur-Quan Dreadnough (until it can close in, then the Cruiser just go BOOM) or a Spathi Discriminator/Eluder, there are few starships he will actually destroy : the VUX ship, provided he survives the ambush, and the Umgah Drone, except if the pilot is good (and lucky) with the retroreactors. It is supposed to be - and is - one of the weakest ship of the fleet.
I take a Yehat ship anytime over the Cruiser in SC2. And an Eluder anytime against anything else.
Anyway, the Humans finally got crushed at the end of SC I 'of which I was talking about, although most of these events are only known in SC2). Too bad they manage to win again in SC 2 :/ I like the fact that it is almost compulsory to pilot a Pkunk (aka : the junkie of the galaxy) ship to destroy the final boss.
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Eh, not to devolve into a SC thread . . . but I think all the ships in SC had strengths and weakness, that was the general point. The Earth Cruiser is fairly good against the
Umgah Ur-Quan because of its laser defence, but the Androsynths generally tear Cruisers apart for example.
I don't know if the general interpretation could stand really. Yes, the Terrans lost at the end of SC1 but that wasn't in the game. It was only a premise in the game of SC2, a story where the Terrans saved everyone's butts. So, I wouldn't say that the story is all that dissimilar. The SC1 manual ridicules the humans, but that's for the sake of humour more than anything else. The whole universe is very tongue in cheek.
People identify with humans because they're humans. Therefore it makes sense to give humanity some sort of pivotal role in all these stories.
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I was only trying to threadnap this topic on SC2 to be honest :)
Plus, the crew of my ship was mostly Sofixtis by the end of the SC2 campaigns, given I sold the humans as slaves to the Maulers (or whatever their name is).
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I was only trying to threadnap this topic on SC2 to be honest :)
Plus, the crew of my ship was mostly Sofixtis by the end of the SC2 campaigns, given I sold the humans as slaves to the Maulers (or whatever their name is).
Druuge . .. the "Mauler" is their ship. The 'throw a guy in the furnace' cannon.
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Well, there's Planet of the Apes...
AND B5's Minbari too!
nickm
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An Eluder is a coward’s ship: it is designed by a coward, built by cowards, and flown by cowards. There are only two types of Eluder captains: the living cowards, and the foolish dead. The living cowards never meet face-to-face with a foe. The Eluder must wear its enemy down little by little. A common and effective Spathi tactic is to show the enemy the Eluder's butt while firing B.U.T.T. missiles at them.
:wtf:
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Well, perfectly true. Fits the Spathi.
You never played Star Control, did you ? You should.
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Well, there's Planet of the Apes...
AND B5's Minbari too!
The Minbari may have beat the Earthers in B5 but humans were still pivotal to the story in nearly every respect.
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An Eluder is a coward’s ship: it is designed by a coward, built by cowards, and flown by cowards. There are only two types of Eluder captains: the living cowards, and the foolish dead. The living cowards never meet face-to-face with a foe. The Eluder must wear its enemy down little by little. A common and effective Spathi tactic is to show the enemy the Eluder's butt while firing B.U.T.T. missiles at them.
:wtf:
He who fights and runs away... :p