Hard Light Productions Forums
Hosted Projects - FS2 Required => Blue Planet => Topic started by: Rick James on August 19, 2008, 04:16:06 pm
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Hey, out of curiosity, are we going to see more of the Vishnans or the Shivans? I was rather interested in the dynamic between the two species.
What council were the two species on? Who are the Brahmans?
Oh, and a fun tidbit: brahmin are two-headed cattle in the "Fallout" series.
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So then I take it the UEF likes launching strike craft (fighters and bombers) off of installations and/or planetary bases, since for a period they didn't use destroyers and heavier fighters and bombers can't even fit in the Karuna's fighter bay (I've tested this).
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What council were the two species on? Who are the Brahmans?
I see you haven't been doing much Hindu religion lately, eh?
Well, in reality, Shiva, Vishnu and Brahma are known collectively as the three divine aspects of God (called Trimurti), the triumvirate of the gods, in other words, the Creator (Brahma) - the Destroyer (Shiva) - and the Preserver (Vishnu). The Brahmans supposedly created subspace and the universe early on in FreeSpace history.
I suspect the Brahmans (the Creators) were killed off or disappeared or something a while ago, so the Shivans and Vishnans are looking for a replacement for the Creators on the council. But the Shivans got a bit pissed at the Terrans and Vasudans and decided to go on a killing spree, thus we see that dialog between the SSJ Dante and the Vishnan ultraevilgiantshipwhichiforgeththenameof. After the Shivans get their asses handed to them I suspect they got kicked off the Trimurti too, but I dunno.
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...the Vishnan ultraevilgiantshipwhichiforgeththenameof.
:wtf: :wtf: :wtf:
I think it's called the Preserver.
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Hmm... Random question. Are the Vishnans and Shivans inter-dimensional? (probably asked before, but whatever)
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So then I take it the UEF likes launching strike craft (fighters and bombers) off of installations and/or planetary bases, since for a period they didn't use destroyers and heavier fighters and bombers can't even fit in the Karuna's fighter bay (I've tested this).
Well bombers wouldn't have been used as often in peacetime, so they probably would have been based on planets or installations, but the Durga/Saracen can definitely fit in the Karuna's launch bay. Probably have room for only one or two, but it is possible...
Hmm... Random question. Are the Vishnans and Shivans inter-dimensional? (probably asked before, but whatever)
Interdimensional as in they exist in multiple dimensions? Yes.
Interdimensional as in they exist in multiple dimensions simultaneously? No. Well, at least the Shivans don't. What happens to the Shivans/Vishnans in one universe may not necessarily happen in another.
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So the Shivans do not coordinate their movements over multiple dimensions? Damn. :(
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''The Shivans are The Great Destroyers but they're also The Great Preservers''
Conclusion:
- The Shivans were protecting ALL races from each other and ''destroyed'' only if necessary; until the Ancients...
- The Ancients somehow developed subspace drive (either from the Shivans or by themselves) long before any other race did and exploited that; they ''destroyed'' a lot and the Shivans had to wipe out their homeworld. They didn't exterminate them, they just gave them a lesson and they learned it.
- 8,000 years later, The Shivans detect subspace drive similar to the one used by the Ancients and, without question or warning, they attack. They were defeated, but 32 years later, they try it again.
- When the Brahmans realise what's happening they create the Vishnans to take the place of the Preserver.
The story goes on, because after Blue Planet, the Shivans are surely planing their revenge. :mad2:
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- The Ancients somehow developed subspace drive (either from the Shivans or by themselves)
It was quite clearly stated in one of the Ancient cutscenes that the Ancients encountered the Shivans after discovering subspace. And subtly hinted that the Shivans arrived because the Ancients stumbled upon subspace.
They didn't exterminate them, they just gave them a lesson and they learned it.
At least I got the impression that the Shivans specifically exterminated the Ancients. Most likely the majority of the Ancients retreated to their homeworld (where or during which they developed the means to destroy the Lucifer) and logically the Shivans followed them. And probably destroyed the homeworld. Since the Ancients were there, waiting for the inevitable destruction.
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We found the data storage module with the info "the lucy shields don't work in subspace" on the homeworld. ( they figured it out after the retreat)
So i dunnae think it got destroyed just V-Primed :nod:
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- When the Brahmans realise what's happening they create the Vishnans to take the place of the Preserver.
:ick:
Bad theory, bad. :no:
We found the data storage module with the info "the lucy shields don't work in subspace" on the homeworld. ( they figured it out after the retreat)
So i dunnae think it got destroyed just V-Primed :nod:
Actually it was a random planet in Altair (Altair IV I think) but I don't believe that it was their homeworld. Also this planet was destroyed by Shivan weaponry apparently, so this planet was also probably V-Primed.
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Who's to say it's not the remains of their H-world after it was ravaged.
Who's to to say it's not. They're all dead, we're not, let's not worry about it:)
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We found the data storage module with the info "the lucy shields don't work in subspace" on the homeworld. ( they figured it out after the retreat)
So i dunnae think it got destroyed just V-Primed :nod:
Well, "destroyed" as in "no-one-or-nothing-is-going-to-****ing-live-there-for-a-****ing-long-time". Not necessarily blown to bits. The definition of destroyed is a bit wide, at least for me. Pardon for not being clear enough.
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There is indeed a difference between going Death Star on a planet and reducing it to a few free-floating chunks of rock and doing what the Lucifer did to Vasuda Prime with it superspecialawesomeomgwtfbbqfishsticks long range planetary bombardment cannon.
At least I got the impression that the Shivans specifically exterminated the Ancients. Most likely the majority of the Ancients retreated to their homeworld (where or during which they developed the means to destroy the Lucifer) and logically the Shivans followed them. And probably destroyed the homeworld. Since the Ancients were there, waiting for the inevitable destruction.
This would seem to be supported by the Ancient monologues:
And we retreated to our home system. Abandoned our empire. We believed at home we would be safe. For they are not a terrestrial species.
We know when we entered subspace we were trespassers. But our planet is our home. And yet still they came. And our world is gone.
There are a few of us left. We know we will soon be gone. And so we can see our fate as others will see it. There will be little legacy. No great expressions of what we once were. Our technology, our achievements if ever they are seen again will spawn none of the awe that filled our conquests.
We know our fate. We are being eliminated. When we travelled subspace the cosmic destroyers took note.
When we conquered and colonised in galaxies where we had no place the destruction and the anguish and the loss were the clarion call of our doom. And so the destroyers came for us.
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- When the Brahmans realise what's happening they create the Vishnans to take the place of the Preserver.
:ick:
Bad theory, bad. :no:
What about my quote?
If the Shivans were the ''Preservers'' until the Great War (which is proved by the last movie of FS1) what the **** were the Vishnans doing at the time?
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Just because its speculated by a character in-universe, it doesn't mean its true that the Shivans were acting as the great preservers.
IMO, sticking to BP canon, I'd say they were solely acting as the Great Destroyers, just killing whatever decides to show its face.
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Just because its speculated by a character in-universe, it doesn't mean its true that the Shivans were acting as the great preservers.
Well IMO it would be a piece of ****ing ****tery for :v: to give you false information at the end of the game. Sure, other games have done it but if they just say "Oh, he didn't know WTF he was talking about at the time." is nothing more than an excuse to retcon all the events of FS1. :doubt:
What about my quote?
About your entire theory that the Vishnans were created as the preservers after the Shivans. Me no likey. I mean, the Shivans and the Vishnans address each other on equal terms... And it just doesn't seem right to me. It seems weird and freaky.
I think the Vishnans at the time of FS1 and FS2 were indecisive in their course of action. Like, they didn't know whether or not to intervene. I don't think they were just created at the time. Especially since they're exactly the same in power as their counterparts. And it completely ruins the duality between the two species if one was created a while after the other.
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ok, assuming BP canon here, the character at the end of FS1 knows nothing about the Vishnans. They've only ever seen the Shivans. I would speculate too that they had some other reason rather than "Oh, hai thar, I kill you all." Its rationalization.
Also, they (the Shivans) may have preformed a similar function in preserving through destruction, but it was not their 'role'.
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I think he was just saying 'if the Shivans hadn't come, the Vasudans and Terrans would have utterly destroyed both their civilizations. Now that we were both attacked, we were forced to adapt and stop fighting each other. In this way they actually preserved us...despite wrecking everything. Funny how that goes, huh?"
I never got the impression it went much deeper than that. Or that the Shivan's intentionally did anything to preserve anything. The player monologue is just trying to find the silver lining in the big black insect like cloud.
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The overall message I got from the end-FS1 monologue was: "If the Shivans hadn't been around, other races would have annihilated us long ago. By annihilating all races with the ability to annihilate races, the Shivans preserve new and developing societies. And their attack also brought about peace between us and the Vasudans." (Like Solatar said.)
Personally, I think that while all of that may be true, I don't believe the Shivans intentionally leave younger species alone. As the Ancients said: "They are not a terrestrial species." I think they just ignore planets unless that planet is a major population center for whomever they happen to be annihilating at the moment. Other species are left alone by virtue of not being spacefaring... or at least, not having enough civilization to be noticed by the Shivans.
(Back on-topic)
Of course, Blue Planet has them being a bit more selective in which races they annihilate. Implying that their "preserve through annihilation" modus operandi is quite deliberate. Although I did find it interesting that the Shivans compared us to themselves. "They are like us. They destroy." Which begs the question: if these "destructive" races are perceived as a threat to "potential" races... how in the world did the Shivans get elected to the Great Council?
(I got to use the word "annihilate" 6 times in one post. :p)
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elected?
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Elected, chosen, allowed to join, whatever. ;)
Bad choice of words, maybe.
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Well, two reasons spring to mind.
(1) Better the enemy you know, than the enemy you don't know. Keeping the Shivans around forces other races to tread carefully lest they start an intergalactic war.
(2) The Grand Council wanted to control the Shivans rather than engage in a grand war with them. By giving them a seat on the Grand Council, they get the Shivans to protect their convoys/planets/whatever, and also have a military force they can use to patrol the edges of known space for whatever serves as pirates or other odd threats. Basically channeling the Shivans' destructive nature into more constructive causes.
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I went and read the FS1 cutscenes in the wiki and realized that the quote from Alpha 1 is a little more complex than just stating that the Shivans are THE Great Destroyers. Rather, he actually states:
Long had we been the destroyer.
Which implies that there can be more than one destroyer, or that there can only be one destroyer, but who it is can vary. I think an abject analogy would be the cleaning guy who scrubs disinfectant on everything. He kills all the bacteria, but he also preserves the sterility of the environment, so new bacteria have an easier time evolving and adapting to their environment without mass competition. Those bacteria would also serve to sterilize the environment if they faced any (weaker) competition.
So yeah, in this case the Shivans were the great Destroyers and the Vishnan the preservers, but it may be that either can serve the other's purpose at any time, they just have a tendency to appear to do one thing to the races they encounter because they are so powerful. For all we know the Vishnan may be on the verge of annihilating another species that the Shivans protect, who know the Vishnan as the Great Destroyers.
It's not exactly implied by the Shivans getting kicked off the Grand Council for going too far, but for all we know it could be one big political snafu over conflicting ideologies between the Shivans and the Grand Council. Maybe the Shivans are the Great Nonconformists.
Also interesting is his statement:
I'm told we can expect them again, but not in my lifetime.
Bumbumbum...BP tie in? After all, who would be telling Alpha 1 that he can expect the Shivans or not that he would trust?
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Actually, when you think of it, the act of the Shivans exterminating the Ancients may be an act of preservation as well. Keep in mind that the Ancients struck down any foreign civilization they came across prior to meeting the Shivans. In some way, the Shivans are acting for the preservation of other species that the Ancients had yet to conquer.
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Yes, that has been noted.
That's also where the great preservers tag comes from at the end of FS1.
However, I do -NOT- believe that that is their role, according to BP canon.
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O hey ... thread split. I think my post should be moved back to the main thread though. It doesn't really have to do with Vishnans and Shivans :nervous: ... unless you plan on making a War in Heaven Discussion thread...
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This is a good discussion. I'm giving it it's own thread. If you'd like I can rename the thread to something else. :)
It's not just races that the Vishnans preserve, but also the balance of the universe itself. Being non-linear, the Vishnans transcend time (theorised to be a non-fundamental property of the universe) and they have the ability to shift matter into other universes. Likewise the Shivans are granted the ability to destroy parts of the universe (causing a star to supernova, for example) as well as destroying other aspects (like V. Prime's ability to support life).
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It's not just races that the Vishnans preserve, but also the balance of the universe itself. Being non-linear, the Vishnans transcend time (theorised to be a non-fundamental property of the universe) and they have the ability to shift matter into other universes. Likewise the Shivans are granted the ability to destroy parts of the universe (causing a star to supernova, for example) as well as destroying other aspects (like V. Prime's ability to support life).
But doesn't that more or less mean that the Vishnans could easily destroy the Shivans by attacking them at different points in time and hiding in other universes?
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I'm wondering if War in Heaven will give any BP-specific answers about Bosch and Capella.
I'm also hoping the Shivans will retain their menace in our universe. I liked them best when they had even the Vishnans running scared. I don't object to an eventual happy ending, but the Shivans are one of the few alien races in SF to remain mysterious, implacable, and unstoppable. I hope BP can somehow retain that quality!
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Shivans kicking Vishnan ass all over space and time would suffice.
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Why is the Vishnan Missionary just a reskinned AF Kato?
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Why is the Vishnan Missionary just a reskinned AF Kato?
Why not?
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It's cool! I don't get to fly an Ancient ship in INFR1 unless I FRED a mission, so this is quite a good experience. :)
Kudos to Darius and the Inferno team. :D
I'm still trying to understand the Vishnans and their meaning of preserving the balance. What is balance to them?
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I'm still trying to understand the Vishnans and their meaning of preserving the balance. What is balance to them?
In this particular instance, taking all the people who don't belong to that universe and sending 'em back to where they came from.
Basically a form of energy conservation.
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In that sense, Darius, does "wiping out the evil elements in the GTVA" count as preserving balance?
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In this particular instance, taking all the people who don't belong to that universe and sending 'em back to where they came from.
Wait, wait, wait. I'm starting to see something really weird.
The Shivans, from one point of view, are the good guys... Because the Vishnans were sending the invasion fleet back into Sol so that they could start a war, but if the Shivans had wiped out the invasion fleet, then there might not have been a war... Now we know what the Shivans meant by "They are like us. They destroy"... :drevil:
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I've a feeling the GTVA back in our own universe would have simply sent another fleet had that happened.
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I've a feeling the GTVA back in our own universe would have simply sent another fleet had that happened.
Perhaps, but not without some second thoughts.
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The Shivans, from one point of view, are the good guys... Because the Vishnans were sending the invasion fleet back into Sol so that they could start a war, but if the Shivans had wiped out the invasion fleet, then there might not have been a war... Now we know what the Shivans meant by "They are like us. They destroy"... :drevil:
Wow. I didn't think of that, but you're right, Snail. Now that you say it, the Shivans weren't going overboard at all. :eek:
However, it seems that, in War in Heaven, both the Shivans and Vishnans will be in the sidelines watching the war unfold. Perhaps this war might preserve the balance, as the victors will either be spared or killed.
After the end of Age of Aquarius, I think that, if the UEF wins, the Vishnans and Shivans will stay out of sight, but if the GTVA wins, the fate of the Terrans and Vasudans is sealed. :doubt:
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In this particular instance, taking all the people who don't belong to that universe and sending 'em back to where they came from.
Basically a form of energy conservation.
Uhh...then wouldn't they throw the Sanctuary back to where they came from? :nervous:
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Maybe that was part of the 'deal', so to spoke, regarding Samuel Bei's destiny.
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Uhh...then wouldn't they throw the Sanctuary back to where they came from? :nervous:
Yes they'll have to. And now we've got a plot hook! :)
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Ah, so the Vishnans aren't the angels we all thought they were, huh?
Nice. :nod:
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Jeez. I can't wait to see how Samuel reacts to that.
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Jeez. I can't wait to see how Samuel reacts to that.
To be honest I thought Samuel was a jackass... :nervous:
(Corey was cool but Taylor was a bit thick)
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Well, I liked him...he's clearly from a somewhat different, more formal culture, but I can tolerate that.
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Well, I liked him...he's clearly from a somewhat different, more formal culture, but I can tolerate that.
I thought he was a dumbass when the transport blew up and he was like "DADDY! MUMMY AND MY GIRLFRIEND JUST GOT BLOWN UP HELP ME PL0X!"
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:lol:
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Well, I liked him...he's clearly from a somewhat different, more formal culture, but I can tolerate that.
I thought he was a dumbass when the transport blew up and he was like "DADDY! MUMMY AND MY GIRLFRIEND JUST GOT BLOWN UP HELP ME PL0X!"
Snail, Snail. That was the beginning of his character arc. He's obviously well past that stage by the time 'Journey's End' swings around.
He's supposed to start off as an unsympathetic, cold, haunted quasi-space-emo, but he does move past it.
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Another thing was the whole "This is why I was born I must do this you can't stop me i have to do this you are stupid you dont understand me i am samure ebfruef"
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Another thing was the whole "This is why I was born I must do this you can't stop me i have to do this you are stupid you dont understand me i am samure ebfruef"
Really? I didn't find it all that blatant. Very mildly cheesy, sure, but not really aggravating.
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No, it was a good plot point, but I didn't like Samuel Bei as a person/character. He's just not the kind of person you get to like. He's the kind of person you punch in the face. A cheating, deceiving sodding crybaby who thinks he's justified in being one just because he lost half his family due to his incompetence...
On second thoughts that's a pretty damn good reason...
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I would argue the point that during Samuel Bei's escort mission in Capella, he had only two wingmen with him and he was up against an overwhelming Shivan force that launched warheads at a transport whose armor could be charitably described as paper-thin and bluntly described as being slightly worse than stepping onto a battlefield naked.
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Ah, the diversity of perception!
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I guess I'm just comparing him to people I know in real life. Like some dip**** who thinks he can be emo now because he lost a hard drive or whatever. But evidently losing your family because of your own actions is probably a good enough reason to become an emo ass hole.
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But evidently losing your family because of your own actions is probably a good enough reason to become an emo ass hole.
Uh...no ****?
You can not hate yourself after that? O_o
You'd have to be pretty uncaring...or evil. That works too. Especially if you killed your family willingly.
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But evidently losing your family because of your own actions is probably a good enough reason to become an emo ass hole.
Uh...no ****?
You can not hate yourself after that? O_o
You'd have to be pretty uncaring...or evil. That works too. Especially if you killed your family willingly.
Samuel didn't kill his family willingly. How can three Perseus fighters hold off so many Shivans?
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How could the transport not jump out and just wait for the bombs to get to it? It could have jumped to somewhere safer. Somewhere with Alpha1.
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How could the transport not jump out and just wait for the bombs to get to it? It could have jumped to somewhere safer. Somewhere with Alpha1.
Well, in this case Alpha 1 was Samuel Bei. But Samuel Bei was a useless sod at the time.
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How could the transport not jump out and just wait for the bombs to get to it? It could have jumped to somewhere safer. Somewhere with Alpha1.
Freespace ships can rarely just jump out at an instant's notice. It appears to take quite a bit of planning and warming up, at least in the case of larger ships.
In fact, Samuel mentions that larger vessels aren't supposed to have comparable 'subspace maneuverability' to a fighter, which seems to involve the time between jumps. I doubt an Elysium has a particularly well-rated jump drive.
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Particularly considering the relative age of the class and the possiblity this one has been flying around since the T-V War...
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Right. They couldn't escape.
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I certainly hope the Vishnans and Shivans return to the Blue Planet continuity in the "main" GTVA timeline. I highly doubt the current civil war will be looked upon kindly by the Shivans, and Sammuel is going to have some convincing to do with the Vishnans if humanity wants their continued protection.
Plus, it would be awesome to return some cosmic payback to the Shivans for fragging Capella by downing the SSJ Dante. Immortal balancers of the cosmos? Nothing lasts forever, and the Shivans? They can be replaced.
I'm all for character growth and introspection, I just think us as players should get one final shot at the Shivans. :mad:
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I'm sure the Vishnans understand that humanity isn't perfect. They talk a lot about humanity's potential in AoA, but just potential. They didn't say humanity had achieved it, with the possible exception of Samuel Bei. If they are watching, they'll be looking to see if humans (either side) can find a way to end the conflict peacefully; whether they can or can't will speak volumes about the species's development as a whole.
And I'm sure the Shivans will return. They got booted from the Great Council because of us. They won't look too kindly on that, methinks. I don't have any idea what in the GTVA's arsenal could possibly challenge the Dante, but...
Furthermore:
:necro:
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An epic, multi-stage showdown where you actually get to "chip away at the bolder" before delivering the final blow?
One can dream anyway.
Now what would really get crazy would be a multi-dimensional showdown between Shivans! So crazy they seek to destroy each other! ... Or maybe not. :D
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I'm told we can expect them again, but not in my lifetime.
Bumbumbum...BP tie in? After all, who would be telling Alpha 1 that he can expect the Shivans or not that he would trust?
[/quote]
Actually, if you listen to that audio clip closely, it is most definitely appended. I think that one particular quote just means that we could expect a sequel from Volition/Interplay set farther into the future....But that's just me spitballing based on one little audio discrepancy.
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I think that change in audio tone for that last sentence was deliberate. "Alpha 1" is speaking in very abstract, cosmic terms throughout most of the monologue, but for that last sentence, he takes on a much more personal view. The audio filter changes in time from some sort of echo distortion to a much more human tone. I thought it was a nice touch myself.
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Actually, if you listen to that audio clip closely, it is most definitely appended.
Nope. In the "FreeSpace Reference Bible" (basically just a transcript of some draft-versions of the cutscenes), it actually has a cue for a shift in his voice. Sort of like an aside in a play.
Or maybe we're talking about something else.
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I think that one particular quote just means that we could expect a sequel from Volition/Interplay set farther into the future....
And I think that means, they originally planned FS2 to start out from Earth, but then changed their plans to what was actually released....
Though I'm fairly sure that, if there had been either FS3 or an addon to FS2 it would have reopened the node to sol.