Hard Light Productions Forums
Hosted Projects - Standalone => Fate of the Galaxy => Topic started by: Vertigo 7 on August 23, 2008, 09:55:42 pm
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I wanted to put this up to show what i'm working with so far. All comments and suggestions are very welcome. I have no idea how long this is gonna take me to complete... I'm pretty new to modeling and haven't even started looking at texturing =p so anyways, with out further ado...
(http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/4965/gb1ap9.th.jpg) (http://img168.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gb1ap9.jpg)
(http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/3509/gb2zn9.th.jpg) (http://img403.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gb2zn9.jpg)
ignore the main hull. i'm gonna trash it and completely redo it. I just put it there for reference... I decided to go with a flat wing instead of a triangular shaped one cuz in the original TIE Fighter, the wings were flat, and could also pivot... you can tell by the design of the S-Foil thingy that i intended on a triangular shaped wing but i didn't like it at all so i scrapped it and started over. I'm gonna keep the base design of the S-Foil and add a cylindrical shaped dohicky to connect the wing to give it pivot power... im pretty sure i can make that work =p
I can't decide if i need to make the wing longer or not... So yeah anyways, by all means throw me the suggestions =D
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I like what you have so far, though a lot of things like extruded panels or rivets can really be faked with normal maps, and I agree that the wings should be flat. One thing that I'd recommend on having, is the Gunboat's laser cannons mounted on the wing and be able to rotate into "attack" position similar to the that of the Lambda-class Shuttle.
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yup thats what i was going for... do me a favor... splain this normal mapping process to me =p i seriously know 0 about texturing or anything of the sort... i just started doing this a week ago
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Basically, small indentations and grooves, etc can be simulated through a texture such as a bump/normal or height/parallax map. Height is a more extreme version of the normal map. Look at the Z-95 or ISD threads for examples, much of the panel work on those models is entirely in a texture. The engine uses the map to generate proper shading as you move around it, so the effect is more obvious when the model is moving around.
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I'm satisfied with it so far.
Expect more feedback as soon as you get the whole done.
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looking good!
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thought i should give an update. Good news is I'm nearing completion of this stage of the model... bad news is as it stands im predicting ~13k polys... as you can see in these screen shots im at 4551 faces per side and i havent even done the hull and top wing yet. good news is thats triangulated. I haven't gone through the thing yet and deleted unnecessary edges... and i'll prolly remove a few panels that can be normal mapped which should cut down on the poly count a bit... so anyways... progress i thinks =D
(http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/4702/portandstarboardbottomcb9.th.jpg) (http://img515.imageshack.us/my.php?image=portandstarboardbottomcb9.jpg)
(http://img53.imageshack.us/img53/7098/portandstarboardfrontob8.th.jpg) (http://img53.imageshack.us/my.php?image=portandstarboardfrontob8.jpg)
(http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/1509/portandstarboardtoplm8.th.jpg) (http://img525.imageshack.us/my.php?image=portandstarboardtoplm8.jpg)
(http://img53.imageshack.us/img53/3983/portandstarboardfoldedqg7.th.jpg) (http://img53.imageshack.us/my.php?image=portandstarboardfoldedqg7.jpg)
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The polycount is way too much for a ship of that size. If you gave us a wireframe view, the pros could give you some advice on how to lower it.
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You're probably rounding things way too much. Proper smoothing will eliminate the need for most of that kind of rounding. The gunboat isn't even a very round ship, you shouldn't be approaching anything like that probably. Any efficient modeler around here could probably make an excellent model in 5-8k polies, including cockpit. I'm not a pro modeler though, so like TopAce said, show some of the higher poly areas in wireframe and maybe someone else can give you some more tips.
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Yeah, that's just waaaaay too many polies for a ship that size, with that level of detail, please do post up a wireframe view, maybe we can help out and give ya some advice.
The gunboat, looking over some of the shots of it, shouldn't need anything more than 5k tris in total for all of the detail.
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(http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/9291/wire1ib3.th.jpg) (http://img111.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wire1ib3.jpg)
(http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/1764/wire2oj9.th.jpg) (http://img176.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wire2oj9.jpg)
(http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/289/wire3mn8.th.jpg) (http://img176.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wire3mn8.jpg)
(http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/1856/wire4ne8.th.jpg) (http://img111.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wire4ne8.jpg)
the highest poly objects are the engine and s-foil thingy after triangulation. I think on the s-foil i'm gonna get rid of the holes on the wing mount. Its a nice touch imo but all of those faces on the inside of the hole are never going to be seen so i might as well leave it solid
Right now i've been deleting unnecessary edges from the engine but TS keeps crashing on me when i try to view as a solid so bleh... i keep having to start over =p also on the smaller wings i'm going to ditch the curved bump lookin thing and just make it square, or maybe even triangular
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Okay, let's go through these image by image.
First image: Cut down those rib thingys to simple boxes. You'll never see that much detail. If you want them still to have a rounded appearance, then bevel them and assign them the same smooth group.
Second Image: Most of those details, being so small, should be on the normal map, not on the model. I'd say redo the engine pods as one big box, and model only the largest of details. In addition, the rounding on the front should be accomplished with a single ring of faces, once again a bevel. Don't try to round objects for games that are so small.
Third image: That tube has way too many sides. It's so small I can't even see where it is on the long view of the model. It should probably be deleted entirely.
Fourth image: Get rid of that bump entirely. Handle that in the mapping. Also, a gun barrel that small should have 8 sides at most, and be a simple cylinder. Handle the changes in shape via normal maps.
All in all, your modeling will improve if you step back and look at the larger picture. A good technique I use to see if I'm using too many faces on an object is to view the entire model in one viewport. If I see two edges so close together that they look like one, then they probably should be one.
I'd suggest starting by building the entire model, and then detailing, largest details down to the smallest, that way you'll not need to exceed your poly budget.
Look at this image, and hopefully you'll see a good idea of what sort of level of detail can go into mapping.
(http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/images/Ewingmaps.jpg)
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Oh, guess I probably should have labelled what's what on there
Right: Base Model
Middle: Normal Mapped
Left: Diffuse Mapped
That's 2600 polies triangulated
(Also, it's slated for a remake, I'm not too happy with it)
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alright. Actually thats pretty much what i'm doing to the engine right now... one of the problems with it is the faces are not properly meshed at all. I'm going through and redoing it so i can get fewer faces out of 1 area than previously... i've already knocked out about 200 faces untriangulated by doing so and still maintaining the overall shape. i got rid of the panels except for the one with the handle on it... i like it too much to ditch it =p but i did some revamping on it... anyways ima keep going on this...
btw... the engine front i did bevel... i onry did it like 10 times at a decreasing angle to give the appearance of being curved. i prolly can remove some of the edges with out distorting it to reduce poly count, however.
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(http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/images/Ewingmaps.jpg)
Mmmmmh...the ewing...one of my favorite craft :)
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Only 10 times is far too many, I meant bevel it one time.
Oh, and of the E-Wing again, I just did up a triangulated wire render for ya, note how my large engine pods have less sides than your tiny tiny little tubes for the S-foils.
(http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/9379/ewingwirepr8.jpg)
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One other thing if I may, is that the laser cannons should be a little bit larger in relation to the wing that they're mounted on, and also you may want to mirror the mount to the other side of the aforementioned wing. then move the center the laser cannon so that it's centerline is the same as the wing's. You want to make sure that the gun appears to be properly mounted from both sides of the wings rather than just one.
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i can mirror it np, but if memory serves, the XG-1 only has 2 lasers (1 on each wing) and 2 ions (above the cockpit) as far as making it larger yeah... it is kinda pewny =p
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You definitely need to keep in mind that smoothing is your friend. You don't need to be able to look directly at the mesh and see a curved surface. When you have proper mapping and smoothing, even a very non-smooth curved surface will still appear smooth enough. There are many tricks that a game model will use to keep its poly count down. I hope you're mirroring most of the model and not modeling each side separately as well.
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oh gods no lol =p i think id shoot myself if i had to duplicate this vertex by vertex... ok so noob question time. I thought that PCS did the smoothing? or is that part of the mapping process... and while i'm on that subject... i seriously have no idea how normal maps are made >.>
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No, you definitely need to set up smoothing in advance. Don't worry about making the normal maps right now. Just keep in mind that when the time comes, most small details can be implemented without having to model them. Just do the big stuff first, don't completely detail one part of the ship at a time. Then, you can add detail until you feel it's detailed enough.
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ok so whats the trick to the smoothing process then? =D i havent seen any of that covered in the tutorials
Edit: I've got the poly count down to 3104 per side right now... not done yet =p
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ok here's the latest... i'm not sure how much more reduction i can get with out yanking some of the details... i'm thinking maybe the long thin dips on both wings between the panels, however the big poly hog here is still the engine at just over 1k, everything else is below 500
(http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/9895/portandstarboardupdatedea6.th.jpg) (http://img357.imageshack.us/my.php?image=portandstarboardupdatedea6.jpg)
(http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/1909/gunwireqa4.th.jpg) (http://img337.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gunwireqa4.jpg)
i think for the gun im still gonna take a few edges off... should knock off another 20 or so faces... looking at the wings, what do you think? also should the gun be longer/wider?
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make your guns longer. Try to make them in proportion to the wing similar on how the guns of the Lambda are, in relation to its wing.
At this point, instead of worrying about polycount, just model the rest of the thing, and worry about optimization later.
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You could worry about optimization later, at least of the parts you've already done. But, for everything you do, really try not to use too many bevels and faces for cylinders. I can't help you with truespace smoothing, it is possible but I've heard it's a bit wonky to do. It's still worth learning though.
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Also, I see what brand was talking about. In the whole of the model, that little dome next to the gun could probably be done entirely on the normal map.
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hrmz... that bump thing is the pivot point for the gun... if i ditch it, how can i makes it move properly?
oh and as of this post i made the gun barrel have 8 faces onry... fillet tool cause the extra smaller ones in there and i made em go away.
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The pivot axis doesn't have to be part of a phsyical object I'm sure. And the bump will be there visually on the texture and normal map. Sounds good about the gun barrel, 8 is probably plenty for that.
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from an efficiency point of view, how much of an increase in polys should i expect once triangulated? i'm about 1:1.5 right now... 1030 to 2464 per side
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It's just all in how big your untriangulate polies are. If you have a lot of flat areas with multiple vertices, expect it to go up a bit.
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Well, looking at it I don't think you need to model those panels at all on the wings. Chief suggested I do up a little example, by copying your wing, so here we go:
Let's start by looking at the final product:
(http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/3139/wingrenderxy0.jpg)
Pretty snazzy for a few minutes of work.
So let's start back at the beginning, what does this model look like without any maps?
(http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/6651/nomapsks5.jpg)
(http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/5379/triangulatedkz6.jpg)
Whoa, where did all the detail go? Well, the secret is that they're in the maps. There are two maps in play here, the diffuse map and the normal map, which together take this flat, boring object and turn it into something detailed.
The first map we apply is the Normal map. Basically this is height data, where the computer will look at the map to figure out how to shade the object, pretending that it was real geometry, but it actually isn't, because no faces are being raised or lowered.
(http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/260/rendernormalmu8.jpg)
So that's the model with the normal map, but it still doesn't have quite the depth we're looking for, this is where the diffuse map comes into play. The diffuse map doesn't only include colours to go on the model, but can also be used very effectively to give an illusion of other details. Basically what I've done is take the normal map and screw around with it a little, adding some shading and subtle colour differences on the diffuse to give a better illusion of depth.
(http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/3755/diffusetq9.png)
(Note that this is a terribly UVMapped object, but hey, it's simple for the sake of example)
With these combined, the object now looks as detailed as yours, but with only 44 triangles in total.
(http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/3139/wingrenderxy0.jpg)
And yes, I know I forgot to make a hole for the gun barrel. So shoot me.
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and while you're at it, just finish the whole model brandx0 ! :D
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Nope, I know he's got other stuff to work on, and this isn't something I even want him to spend a few days on really. As stated, this wasn't a terribly high priority model for us, but if Vertigo can clean it up and make it nice, it may see use in the mod.
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I won't be doing the model. I was against it being included in the first place. This post was just to hopefully help him out a bit.
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gasp.... ok... so i need to delete all of the panels then.... this is what i've been getting at... my pops hooked me up with photoshop CS2 (hes trying to find his CS3 upgrade) so i need to export the UV map to create the normal map, correct?
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This post was just to hopefully help him out a bit.
Thanks a lot for that, BrandX. Would that more people took your advice. :)
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this is all a learning experience for me =) im lovin doing this.... I'm damned determined to get this right
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Hehe, well I'll be doing up some tutorials soon, I've starting drafting them about a few of the techniques I use in modeling, mapping and rendering.
As it stands now I think I'll be doing one tutorial on my rendering setups and what sort of rendering is best for showing what, another one for some of the effects I use in my maps.
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ok taking brandx's advice, i dropped most of the panels... i still left a few on there till i can see what i can do with mapping... anyways, here's the latest including a new hull... i still need to add the top guns for the ion cannons and figure out how im gonna do an impression for the cockpit glass, but 3904 is the current poly count triangulated, and im expecting ~4200 with the final touches maybe less, i donno
(http://img53.imageshack.us/img53/3527/gbwholetempfq9.th.jpg) (http://img53.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gbwholetempfq9.jpg)
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leave the cockpit glass as is, do it in the map
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kk will do
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ok i think im done for now with the mesh. I'm installing CS2 atm, would it be advised to get the UV Map from LU?
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I believe LU carries a better recommendation than TS's own UV ability.
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yeah i cant sort the UV map in TS like LU can... I'm starting to pull some of these UV's out of the model... I hate to ask for more hand holding here but when it comes to my ability to draw i suck =p I needa know whats the best way to create a normal map and how >.>
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I saw your other thread on modding, hopefully some of that helped. But for that, the best way you're going to learn is by experimentation. Just see what different things on the map do to the model, you're going to need some way of rendering it so you can see the results of your mapping.
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i can render it in LU, i think... havent made it that far yet... this mapping is kickin my ass for some reason. i sorta figured out what i'm doing but not really... when i preview it in the plugin in photoshop, i see 2 lines around the panel and i cant for the life of me figure it out... it looks like the panel rises then dips, sort of making a bowl
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I just wanted to give an update as to what's going on. I think i'm going to make some changes to the way the model was built as i've seemed to pick up a few techniques in photoshop to better bring out some details. As it stands with a bajillion faces in a confined area its a pain in the ass to texture so i'm gonna try to make it a bit easier to do.
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Yup, fewer faces mean easier texturing. That's one reason we were trying to impress on you the importance of minimizing faces as much as possible.
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brandx - what rendering program do you use to beable to apply all of the texture maps to an object?
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I use 3D Studio max for all my modeling and rendering, with the VRay rendering engine, though occasionally I use Mental Ray
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How's this looking Vertigo? Any more problems?
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ehh well... LU is giving me fits. I've been trying to combine UV maps of sub objects to make the materials used more efficient but every time i save and reload it, it breaks them back apart... also its acting weird like when i do a box mapping, some edges are missing so ive had to resort to face mapping on some parts... its just driving me nuts =p
one other thing im trying to do is rethink how the wing is connected to the s-foil but the wing pivoting from -15 deg to +90, i can't make it look right.
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how about just up 75 or so degrees, it doesn't neeed to be vertical, and the eventual hull MAY get in the way
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no the joint is far enough out that the wings can be vertical. Infact they are sposed ta... (http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/thumb/d/d3/GUNhanger.jpg/200px-GUNhanger.jpg)
granted thats from the original TIE fighter game but that's also what i'm basing the majority of the design from
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okay, i saw that pic a long time ago and thought that they were not vertical,
looking forward to the model
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How's this coming along? Still tweaking it?
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ok just to let all interested parties know. Since my last post i've gotten overly fed up with truespace and its inability to maintain any sense of stability. A buddy of mine from school hooked me up with max 09 and i've been messin around with it and i'm in love. For the last couple of weeks i've been working on a Constitution Refit model, more or less as a get to know max kinda thing and if i would stop procrastinating I would be done with the lod0 mesh of it.
I'm having some issues with collada import/export and i've gotta figure out exactly how UV mapping works in Max and all that jaz. Once i can get beyond those humps, i'll beable to finish the model up and start over on the XG-1.
So anyways, that in a nutshell is the haps. I didn't forget and I haven't given up =)
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I can help you out with that, I've used Max for years. Contact info's in my profile.
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awesome =D prepare for a bajillion questions
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Or stop by IRC and bombard everyone there.
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ok some have already seen this and others haven't so here ya go!
(http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp294/dkinnane/gunboat7.jpg)
Brand-X has been teaching me a lot, as have others on IRC. I still got a ways to go but its mostly all texturing now. I think this will come out fairly well =D
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Normally I hate when people say this, but I'm thinking that nose might be a bit too long. I know you're trying to avoid copying the model from XvT or whatever, but something a little more like that cutscene pic from TIE Fighter might be better. Its' a bit stubbier but still not a short little block. You're getting better though it looks like.
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To be honest i think the proportions on that version are way off, your earlier Truespace attempt captured them much closer http://img53.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gbwholetempfq9.jpg (http://img53.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gbwholetempfq9.jpg). The traditional AssBoat from TIE Fighter looks a lot more stubby and robust.
(http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/2/2c/XWA-Xg1-3d-new.jpg)
Comparing yours to the original (though i wouldn't use the textures; what Imperial craft has 1) Color 2) rust ? :P )
1) the nose should be shorter, blunter and the canopy larger
2) the engine/missile bay should be fatter.
3) All the wings should be a bit more thicker and robust, they seem very delicate on this version . The main horizontal stabilizers seem a bit to long while the auxiliary vertical stabilizers seem to small. I would check the angling as well
4) the main fuselage should be in general more robust and chunky
Sorry if its a bit of a laundry list but I've always found getting the proportions down as being the most important part of creating something.
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I agree about the texture. In general I've always argued that the Gunboat feels too rebel to be an imperial craft. I just plain don't like it one bit.
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Hmm.. Skipray Blastboats were imperial small crafts weren't they... and they do seem to have Color (more or less) in them... (well.. at least the ones i found with quick search)
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I'm not a big fan of the Skispray either.
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I agree about the texture. In general I've always argued that the Gunboat feels too rebel to be an imperial craft. I just plain don't like it one bit.
Doesn't it look like the Lambda shuttle to you? When I saw it for the first time thats what I thought...it seemed very Imperial.
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Let her rust! I think the Gunboat would make a great older ship, like say it was a mainstay in the Republic fleet that has been totally superseded by the TIE Bomber or its predecessors, but there are still a lot of them in use by smaller organizations, pirates etc. You would have to strip down its capabilities from the TG games (like 8 torps, no ions, flies like a brick) to make it work in that role, but it seems to me that SW can always use more crappy older ships flying around, especially ones that do look somewhat recognizably SW. That would give neutral forces a bomber (the only other option I can think of would be Y-wings, which, as the mainstay of the rich Alliance, are probably too pricey for pirates) and it's way better looking than any Prequel fighter IMO.
Why defang it? It seems like the majority of EU ships are all about one-upping their trilogy counterparts, but if you look at the Alliance at Yavin (described as "well equipped" by at least one high ranking Imperial), they had basically 30 fighters to send against the Death Star, and it's not like there was any reason to hold anything back. So I say give us more of the rusty, outdated stuff to make the "low end" Y-wings and TIE fighters look like the elite fighting machines they are supposed to be.
As for the model, I think if you beef it up a bit and shorten the nose and wings it will look very nice! :yes:
The Blastboat just sucks, Zahn or no.
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thing is, swash, if the assault gunboat is a line imperial craft, it should look like one, and not look like the imperials are just using rebel ships.
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Let's get some facts straight:
1) Y-Wing =/= Expensive
2) Y-Wing =/= Elite
3) Assault Gunboat = Much newer than the Y-Wing
4) Rebel Alliance =/= Rich
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thing is, swash, if the assault gunboat is a line imperial craft, it should look like one, and not look like the imperials are just using rebel ships.
The Gunboat looks like a combat-orientated cousin of the Lambda shuttle. I'm not sure where the problem is. I mean if the colour is the issue, then simply don't give it any. Make it flat white/grey like the Lambda. But I think the shape itself is rather imperial.
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I was referring to the image in Slayer's post there
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thing is, swash, if the assault gunboat is a line imperial craft, it should look like one, and not look like the imperials are just using rebel ships.
Word; I was just trying to suggest a minor retcon to make the ship (who's design I like) fit into a more appropriate role (non-imperial), hence the defunct Old-Republic bomber idea. Just an off-the-cuff suggestion.
Let's get some facts straight:
1) Y-Wing =/= Expensive
2) Y-Wing =/= Elite
3) Assault Gunboat = Much newer than the Y-Wing
4) Rebel Alliance =/= Rich
Yeah, elite was the wrong word, I should have said "extremely deadly". But I will argue that the Alliance is ridiculously loaded for an organization that can't really tax anyone. They have fighting machines that can go toe to toe with the at least the low-end imperial stuff, and that means an enormous amount of resources to train and maintain all of the people and equipment involved. Imagine some independent group wanted to fight it out directly with modern US air power. They could try to steal or highjack fighter jets, but it's not like someone's gonna leave the keys to the Nebulon B in the ignition--these are huge and expensive endeavors, even with all volunteers. Ever try to buy a fighter jet? Here's something sweet I saw at Oshkosh a couple years back:
http://www.avtechgroup.com/
A bargain at $3 million per unit, but sadly they would probably not fare so well in combat. Anyway I'm sorry that I am going so far off topic again, and I know the economics of transgalactic warfare are probably somewhat different, but I still suspect that those damned tree-hugging Alderaanian types were funneling a huge flow of cash into the Alliance. In conclusion, I really wanted an X-wing for Christmas but got socks, and I hope the Gunboat makes it.
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most of the rebellion ships are Mon Calamari and correlian design. Correlia seems fairly well up there in the technological scale too. Also the Neb. B frigates the rebellion has were captured from the empire. Sure, they don't have the funds that the empire has but I'm quite sure with the systems signed on with the rebellion, they are able to maintain the war effort with little trouble.
Anyway, back on topic. Since no body liked my gun boat i'm starting over =p I may have a mesh ready later today, if not tomorrow.
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...Since no body liked my gun boat i'm starting over =p ...
I think it's the gun boat in general that I don't like, you're just working with what you've got. My suggestion would be to think of the gun boat as a problem to be solved. Study other imperial ships and find out what makes them look imperial and apply those imperial characteristics to the gunboat. My impression is that the person who originally designed the gun boat wanted to make it look like it was related in form to the Lambda, so you could draw inspiration from there.
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well i KNOW what the gun boat looks like, its one of my favorite craft, however, I wanted to give it a "new" look. My new look didn't go over well so meh, no worries. I personally don't like they way it has been modeled with most everything. It's not the concept of the gunboat i dont like, infact I love it, but just the way it has been modeled with the other games, i don't like. I guess its kinda hard for me to put into words, It just looks like ass so I wanted to give it a make over =p
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Fair enough.
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I suppose the thing is, the AG is kind of like a heavy Tie-Bomber, they handle like bricks, but then, they don't need to be sleek or fast, because anything in front of it gets shot and stays shot.
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When it comes to rebel craft at the time when the AG was introduced we are speaking of Y-Wings, X-Wings and (if you trust the X-Wing storyline which introduced the gunboat the A-Wing - which was retconned to be some early prototypes). If you only take the movies and books as references I guess we are speaking just of Y and X-Wings with probably some odd other craft used by the Rebel Alliance as well (definitly Z-95 and probably). Of those the Y-Wing and Z-95 probably were widely available at the time of the early galactic civil war (considering the Rebel Alliance probably got most of its equipment from 2nd rate planetary governments and their militias which formed their backbone). The X-Wing on the other side was an Imperial project to produce a modern space suberiority fighter. Although both the Incom design team and the prototypes ended up with the Rebels its strictly spoken an Imperial development. After the initial success of the X-Wing against the aging TIE-Fighter versions the Empire decided to develop something that could counter the new threat. Beeing quite a large entity this effort produces several alternate approaches. On the one hand the TIE series was further refined producing results like the TIE-Interceptor which was to become the new mainstay fighter of the Empire and more advanced and expensive designs like the TIE-Avenger and Defender.
The other design approach was a more conventional bulky fighter that probably borrowed much from the development of the X-Wing and older Republic fighters. Thus the AG was born. OR maybe the AG was the direct competitor to the X-Wing for the production contract that the Empire offered for a new superiority fighter. So this would give an explanation of why the AG shares more with the Rebel designs than it shares with other Imperial ones.
On another note, what do we know about the employment of the AG within the Imperial navy? IIRC an ISD carries only 5 Gunboats making it a quite rare vehicle compared to the relativly high number of TIE craft. This implies that the AG probably had a quite different mission profile than the TIE compliment. Wheter it was used for reconnesaince or hit and run assaults through its hyperspace capability.
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I kinda viewed the assault gunboat mainly as imperial emergency/stopgap measure to counter the more manouverable rebel units... that is to give each ISD some sort of recce/scout/rapid responce force of hyperdrive equipped ships. Also as the manufacturer seems to be different than that of the TIE series there was no real option of 'retooling' the production lines into pushing better TIEs (like adv or def) or possibly the GUNs were suited for long duration patrols better than anything from the generally 'short legged' TIE series... Or something
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The gunboat was designed to give imperials the ability to launch strike missions away from the capital ships. TIE Bombers are great and all but easily shot down and they rely on the ISD and fighter squads for cover. TIE's are only worth while in numbers... i mean if you really get right down to it, TIE's and X-Wings have about a 10:1 ratio. It only makes sense that the empire developed a craft that can sortie missions independent of its mother ship. Plus the ability to be configured for heavy assault or bomber roles makes it a fairly versatile craft. They make out standing escort craft as well.
It wasn't meant as a replacement, but as a more efficient means of fighting the rebellion. In truth, it would probably take an ISD's entire compliment of TIE fighters and bombers to take out say a space platform where as it could be done with 5-10 gunboats with out putting the ISD in harms way.
Not only that, from my understanding, Gunboat squads were typically assigned to the most elite of the imperial pilots anyway.
No, its not a TIE, but its a specialized imperial craft. So yes it will look different, if for no other reason than thats the way lucas made it :p
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Hmmn, I don't think the Gunboat is an elite-only craft. Veteran pilots maybe . . . To me it's just a craft with a different role. The TIEs are all short ranged, the Gunboat is long-ranged, it's as simple as that. So the Gunboat does all the duties that its long-range enables, like scouting, patrolling, strike missions, etcetera. Its also the only non-elite fighter craft to mount Ion Cannons (the elite being the T/D), previously in the games the capture-duty was relegated to Stormtrooper Transports. The A/G gave them a fighter that can do it. You might also see them doing something as mundane as providing escort for transports while those transport perform customs inspections or what not. At the same time, you also see Gunboats in the Battle of Hoth cutscene, as they fly in support of the ground attack on the Rebel base. Maybe the TIE series, despite being able to enter an atmosphere, is actually of limited manoeuvrability therein. So the A/G provides a good atmospheric craft as well with all its control surfaces.
That's my view anyway. It's not necessarily superior to the TIE series, it's simply a fighter with a different operational role. Yeah it's got shields, but it needs them with its low manoeuvrability. TIEs rely on their speed and agility for defense.
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It was basically a heavy bomber, kind of like the Zeus. Load the Zeus up with the right missiles and it's a threat to either fighter escorts or Capships, depending on what is loaded, however, like the Zeus, once the missiles run out, it's kind of vulnerable if relying purely on dogfighting abilities.
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I duno, I liked the gunboat BEST in XvT for imperial missions, as i could give it a beam weapon, but just dump beam power to engines/sheilds/guns, for a little edge.
Like the Y-wing, judicious throttle application makes it an alright dogfighter, just not much of a match for A-wings.
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It'll take skill or dumb luck to best an A-Wing 1on1 in a Gunboat, but any time you have a wingmate you'll stand a much better chance, as I'm guessing the Gunboat will probably be fairly well shielded.
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I duno, I liked the gunboat BEST in XvT for imperial missions, as i could give it a beam weapon, but just dump beam power to engines/sheilds/guns, for a little edge.
Like the Y-wing, judicious throttle application makes it an alright dogfighter, just not much of a match for A-wings.
Personally, that's one of the things I hated about the addition of beam weapons to the game. For some reason all of a sudden all craft had access to them, but at no loss of performance under normal usage, which meant you could just pump all that energy into your engines for a free performance boost. It made no sense from an immersion standpoint, and it's the kind of thing I hope this mod aims to avoid.
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I remember in X-Wing vs Tie, the AG was particularly deadly against X-Wings, since it had roughly equal manoeuvrability. and higher payload. Beam weapons not included (which I never really liked all that much either).
In truth, I always felt it was a little too manoeuvrable, whilst it makes sense from a purely military point of view, from a game-balance perspective, it might be worth potato-ing up the AG just a tiny bit? Having a ship that is Jack of too many trades can sometimes actually ruin it.
Basically, in my opinion, an Awing should be a cause of great concern to even 2-3 unescorted Gunboats unless they are carrying Concussion missiles, whereby an Awing is a light snack. I can imagine a Strike Wing consisting of 2 Torpedo/Bomb carrying AG's and one Concussion carrying one flying point. That also means that engaging a wing of AGs on attack would involve identifying and neutralising the anti-fighter ship as quickly as possible, or have things get very unpleasant very quickly.
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well the awing has weaker weaponary. its laser should have a harder time punching through the strong shields of an gunboat. the gunboat on the other hand should keep its agility...but the x-wing is supposed to be more agile than its implementation in xvstie and xwa.
it should be almost on par as the tie fighter in the SWC
http://www.theforce.net/SWTC/Pix/books/art/ilmmglt1.jpg
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Just because the fighter is weak doesn't mean its guns are, the Borstel RG-9 is still a laser cannon, and it was designed for the A-Wing. Being later generation than other rebel weaponry it probably has a pretty good punch.
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I tend to think the AssBoat should have a decent dogfighting capability, not outstanding mind you but able to hold its own against most foes. "Elites" aside, TIE fighters are combined arms fighters, they operate as a multi craft unit, Eyeballs, Squints and Dupes working in concert supported by their carrier. The Starwing on the other hand is meant to operate unsupported deep in enemy territory. They need to fight their way to their target, light it up, then fight their way out. Even more so then rebel craft when you think about it. All of the Rebellion's fighters are hyper capable, so craft who aren't the most nimble dogfighters like Wishbones and Bwings can be escorted by Awings and Xwings. AssBoats don't have that option, they need to get it done by themselves. And before you say they could be escorted by TIE Defenders or TIE Avengers those fighters should be as rare as womp rats beating krayt dragons in single combat. Even the Empire's best outfits like the 181st hardly ever deploy with them.
Those would be my reasons for advocating Starwings being competent dogfighters. Not able to clear the skies of enemies mind you but tough enough to stand a decent chance of punching out anything that gets between them and their objective.
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The gunboat seems to have pretty comparable level of armament and general role to the Y-wing (though I guess that might not be so much the case with the detail this mod is working into the weaponry), so I think it would make sense for it to be maybe a little better in a knife fight than a bone (bigger hitbox but better turning or shields?) but not quite up to par with the X-wing. You should need interceptors to soundly stomp on X-wings, and there's no way a gunboat should be in the same league as interceptors.
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So for balance purposes, I guess it would be a matter of very careful FREDing to ensure that the gunboat is challenged.
If you think about it, Imperial craft are named for what they do: TIE Fighter fights for space superiority, Interceptor is for picking off bombers and doing patrols and stuff, Bomber carries bombs, Assault Gunboat has lots of guns for the purpose of assaulting stuff, just like StarSlayers said.
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I think the fact that the X-Wing was slowed for the games explains a lot to be honest, the XWings always struck me as a fighter, whereas the Gunboat always makes me think more of anti-cap centred. I'd argue in retrospect though that, in the LucasArts games, the X-Wing probably carried too many Proton Torps.
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Just because the fighter is weak doesn't mean its guns are, the Borstel RG-9 is still a laser cannon, and it was designed for the A-Wing. Being later generation than other rebel weaponry it probably has a pretty good punch.
Compare the sizes of the cannon on the xwing and awing...even the tie fighters laser cannons are physically roughly the same size as the ones on the xwings... in our universe the bigger the barrel the bigger the caliber and the stopping power it has... in for aerial comparison the A-10 30 avenger gatling gun is as big as 1/3 of the aircraft has greater punch than the 20mm vulcan cannons on the f-16.
i can imagine the awings cannons have a faster rate of fire, so that the weaker power is well compensated (but still isnt as destructive as the xwings cannons).
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I'm pretty sure a Desert Eagle has more stopping power than a Kentucky Long Rifle. So actual barrel circumference is what matters really, but that's because of how ballistic ammo works, these are fictional laser weapons not bullets. The A-Wings guns are in fact quite large compared to the rest of the ship still. I'm not saying it's as destructive as the X-Wing's cannons really, I mean the X-Wing was primo stuff stolen right from Incom. But the Y-Wing's? Unless those were also designed to stop capital ships (which I'm pretty sure they weren't) I'm betting the A-Wing's are more powerful. Also they're probably more powerful than the Z-95's.
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I'm pretty sure a Desert Eagle has more stopping power than a Kentucky Long Rifle. So actual barrel circumference is what matters really, but that's because of how ballistic ammo works, these are fictional laser weapons not bullets. The A-Wings guns are in fact quite large compared to the rest of the ship still. I'm not saying it's as destructive as the X-Wing's cannons really, I mean the X-Wing was primo stuff stolen right from Incom. But the Y-Wing's? Unless those were also designed to stop capital ships (which I'm pretty sure they weren't) I'm betting the A-Wing's are more powerful. Also they're probably more powerful than the Z-95's.
Er, Y-Wings are bombers. It would make sense for them to have capship-specialized cannons.
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noone stole from Incom...they defected to the Rebellion...
yeah make the awing uberpowerful...screw the z95
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*sigh* the X-Wing's developers defected to Incom, X-Wings aren't sentient. The developers stole the X-Wings (the former property of Incom) when they defected.
I was under the impression that Y-Wings were originally designed as heavy fighters, and were later relegated to capital ship assault until the B-Wings were acquired, once X-Wings became the premiere fighter choice. But it seems they were a fighter-bomber role after all. Even then, the T&B IX4 and KX5 were likely a bit weaker than the R-9X heavy laser cannon.
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Let her rust! I think the Gunboat would make a great older ship, like say it was a mainstay in the Republic fleet that has been totally superseded by the TIE Bomber or its predecessors, but there are still a lot of them in use by smaller organizations, pirates etc. You would have to strip down its capabilities from the TG games (like 8 torps, no ions, flies like a brick) to make it work in that role, but it seems to me that SW can always use more crappy older ships flying around, especially ones that do look somewhat recognizably SW. That would give neutral forces a bomber (the only other option I can think of would be Y-wings, which, as the mainstay of the rich Alliance, are probably too pricey for pirates) and it's way better looking than any Prequel fighter IMO.
Why defang it? It seems like the majority of EU ships are all about one-upping their trilogy counterparts, but if you look at the Alliance at Yavin (described as "well equipped" by at least one high ranking Imperial), they had basically 30 fighters to send against the Death Star, and it's not like there was any reason to hold anything back. So I say give us more of the rusty, outdated stuff to make the "low end" Y-wings and TIE fighters look like the elite fighting machines they are supposed to be.
As for the model, I think if you beef it up a bit and shorten the nose and wings it will look very nice! :yes:
The Blastboat just sucks, Zahn or no.
That sounds like something someone would've said if they didn't see the original trilogy first. I always liked the gunboat. It was different from the TIEs and that gave it character. I also liked the design. It very much so looks like the shuttle's cousin. It fits right in with everything else in the universe, as far as I'm concerned.
Pirates and the private sector have plenty of ships to use aside from the Y-wing. They've got Z-95s, IRDs, Preybirds, and Planetary Fighters just to name a few. The Y-wing also dates back to the Clone Wars, and I'm not referring to the new animation.
I think the fact that the X-Wing was slowed for the games explains a lot to be honest, the XWings always struck me as a fighter, whereas the Gunboat always makes me think more of anti-cap centred. I'd argue in retrospect though that, in the LucasArts games, the X-Wing probably carried too many Proton Torps.
Yes, I always thought of the gunboat as a special assault fighter. Hell, it's in the name: Assault Gunboat, even if that isn't the official name. It had two mission roles from my experience: bomber or fighter suppression. It was great as a bomber and pretty good at suppressing fighters because of its huge missile payload, but it makes sense that it wasn't used so much because it's obviously more expensive than a TIE Bomber. In X-wing on the harder missions, Gunboats were no joke. A group could waste your squad in no time, but wingmates were also quite stupid too, so that worked in their favor. In many ways it is very similar to the Y-wing, but with better overall performance I think. If the Rebels upgraded the Y-wing, it probably would've been on par or slightly better than the Gunboat.
The X-wing was a space superiority fighter, that's why it carried six torpedoes, so it could fill a variety of combat roles. It wasn't just a fighter like the A-wing.
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That sounds like something someone would've said if they didn't see the original trilogy first.
Ultimate SW insult! Hehe, well I actually do like the Gunboat design and think that it goes well with the Lambda, I just don't think it "feels" like something the Emperor would sign off on. Maybe it would fit well in the fleet of an admiral like Thrawn, who would appreciate the greater tactical flexibility it affords, but using all potential resources in the most efficient manner while attacking your enemy where they're weak isn't really the Emperor's style--he's all about imposing his will in the least flexible, most dramatic way possible, with maximum overkill. The way I see it, the only people who are more afraid of an imperial commander than his enemies are his men (it worked for Vader), and having powerful, independent fighter craft just sort of subverts that symbolic underpinning of the fleet and the Empire: awe-inspiring symbols of terror supported by swarms of expendables. My suggested retcon was just thinking out loud in search of another home for the ship because I do like the design, and there aren't nearly as many likely bomber candidates in the EU for independent factions as there are fighters. Anyway, it's a mute point as the idea wasn't well received to begin with, but it's still interesting from a game balance perspective, I think.
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I'm going to say that the A-Wing isn't a "pure fighter" but rather a specialized fighter in the interceptor role.
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I never said it was a pure fighter, but an interceptor is still a fighter if you want to get technical.
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Enough of the banter, don't make me split another thread that ceased to even be talking about the craft in the WIP. Yeah I know I did it too, but now I'm stopping it. It'd help if Vertigo was working on this and not some lame Starcraft model though, then we'd have something to talk about :)
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shush! brand said i need to practice modeling so i iz!
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As far as the role of the Gunboat, it's simply the fact I cannot really see the Empire being that 'big' on Fighter/Fighter battles. Why develop a long-range DogFighter when you can Hyperspace in a Battleship with 5 times more firepower than it could possibly need to achieve the objective? That sounds like an Imperial-style approach.
However, something larger might be a threat to their big scary Battleship, or they might want to take out a supply convoy or the like without leaving their picket, it's roles like that which would need ships like the Gunboat, it'd be expected to be able to deal with some mobile resistance, but at the end of the day, it's never struck me as a Dogfighter. I know the Imperials do have some long-range dog-fighters, but I've always felt they were only developed near the end of the War, as an attempt to deal with the rapidly increasing fighter resources of the Rebels, particularly the B-Wing. The TIE Fighter could handle Y-Wings and Z-95's, but once X-Wings and A-Wings started escorting B-Wings on assault runs, T/F's were seriously out-classed.
Edit : Besides, can you imagine playing the entire TIE Fighter game in a ship without shields, when nearly everything you attacked did have shields, in fact, would you want to fly for a Navy that produces shuttles that are more intimidating in combat than the fighters? Which is probably the non-technobabble reason why they exist ;)
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oh boy here we go again...
go do some modeling vertigo! :P
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It's about the WIP, which means it's on topic :p
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To me, the Starwing seems similar to Freespace's Hercules, in that it is a heavy/assault fighter designed to be able to take down freighters, transports, and corvettes and still be able to perform adequately in a dogfight.
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Fractal Sponge attacks the XG1 (http://www.scifi-meshes.com/forums/3d-wips/2212-star-wars-projects-thread-90.html#post398541)
Might be a good source of inspiration. Obviously it's not a canon reference but FractalSponge is definitely amazing, and I love some of the stuff he did with it.