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Hosted Projects - Standalone => The Babylon Project => Topic started by: terran_emperor on September 22, 2008, 08:17:10 pm

Title: Babylon 5 "What If" Story poin
Post by: terran_emperor on September 22, 2008, 08:17:10 pm
I'm going to post what i know about the original outline/story for B5. I will also put up some campaign ideas. If anyone else knows any of JMS' unused plot points for B5, post 'em and, if possible, give campaign ideas

Cmdr Sinclair
Originally Sinclair was to remain throughout the series and be involved in the shadow war and the Civil war. He would eventually take his place as Valen at the end of the series. JMS realised that he had thus boxed Sinclair in to a narrative corner with little room for character development. Ergo Sheridan was introduced.

Catherine Sakai - Sinclair's on/off girlfriend.
Originally, she was planned to go on an expidition to Z'ha'dum during Season 2. She would return is Season 3 luring Sinclair to Z'ha'dum. When Michael O'Hare left after s1, the relevant plot points were carried over to Anna Sheridan

Laurel Takashima - original 1st officer
Called Laurel Chang in the original treatment.
Originally, she was to have been involved in assassination attempt on ambassador Kosk as the insider. She was to be the one who housed the Control personality and under its control the one who shot Garibaldi. When revealed as control, she would have been relieved and replaced by the Russian 2nd Officer, Susan Ivanova.
Also Takashima would have been in an intimate relation ship with Ivanova.
Personallity and plot elements for this character were transfered to Talia Winters and Jack (Garibaldi's Second)
*It also seems like this original idea for Takashima was used for the Lt Boomer that shot Cmdr Adama in BSG (RMD)...possibly coincidence


Delenn
Delenn was to originally be a male character. When he underwent the transformation, he would have become female... :eek2:

Taila Winters
I presume that she was introduced when Patricia Tallman didnt originally sign on for the series. I futher presume that she would have gone on to fufill Lyta's role in the series had Andrea Tompson stayed.
Also does anyone remember the Data chrystal that "Abbut" recorded and gave to Kosk in "Deathwalker"?Well if Mrs Tompson had remained with the series, it would have been revealed that it contained a copy of Talia's personality. Kosk would destroy the Control personality and use the crystal to restore Talia

Ivanova
(See Takashima)
Also had Ivanova been in season 5, She would have had the romance with Byron. It was instead transfered to Lyta

THE VORLON EMPIRE
Originally the Vorlons would not have been "Ancients" they'd be one of the 5 modern big races. They would also have been a very different race. Something like a cross between the "Terran Empire" from Star Trek's Mirror Universe and X-File's "Syndicate"
*This would make a rather interesting campaign...Metallic reskins of the vorlon ships and possibly playing a Vorlon pilot in a Vorlon Civil war

BABYLON PRIME
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylon_4
this would also make a great basis for a campaign...and a chance to use the B4 model for something different

PS does anyone have that Poster which had the original Pre-Pilot Treatment on it?
PPS I will ask for anyone who posts the link to that "Babylon-5: The Anime" prank site to be banned
Title: Re: Babylon 5 "What If" Story poin
Post by: Colonol Dekker on September 22, 2008, 08:34:48 pm
"What if" early on in the Earth-Minbari war before we got severley arse whooped. A suicide taks force managed to get to Minbar and nuke a few cities?
Title: Re: Babylon 5 "What If" Story poin
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on September 22, 2008, 08:46:38 pm
    Hmmn, not really sure what you're trying to say. It's not really a what if scenario, it's more of a "what would have happened had . . . " such and such happened. Ie, if Sinclair hadn't got booted off the show he would've stuck around. Same with his girly friend. All the changes are basically due to cast changes rather than new ideas as far as I know. It's the story that would have been had the production been ideal.

     I have a decent what if story of my own written out already, but no inspiration to do a TBP campaign nor really the resources in ships to carry it out. Not without significant plot changes. TBP still perpetually crashes to desktop for me. If I'm lucky. If I'm not lucky, my monitor goes black and I have to by trial and error somehow log myself out of my computer and then restart. Good times. I might run a debug sometime to see what the hell the problem is but I'm guessing it's to do with my lackluster video card.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 "What If" Story poin
Post by: FUBAR-BDHR on September 22, 2008, 09:03:29 pm
"What if" early on in the Earth-Minbari war before we got severley arse whooped. A suicide taks force managed to get to Minbar and nuke a few cities?

Like it but there are some problems.  Biggest is did we know where their home world was?  I remember only hearing of Minbari space and to stay away from it.  Second would be our jump drives.  We didn't have very accurate ones like the Minbari did.  Most likely any attempt would have been blasted out of the sky before it got close. 

On that note forget the nukes.  If it was a suicide strike what about just jumping a big ship into the atmosphere?  My guess is a big impact crater would be the result.  Heck the WhiteStars at the time of the EA Civil War still didn't know if the Mars jump would succeed. 
Title: Re: Babylon 5 "What If" Story poin
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on September 22, 2008, 09:50:29 pm
"What if" early on in the Earth-Minbari war before we got severley arse whooped. A suicide taks force managed to get to Minbar and nuke a few cities?

      How does that change story? Other than, the extermination of humanity being deserved.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 "What If" Story poin
Post by: Flipside on September 22, 2008, 10:01:06 pm
What if the Vorlons that were overpowered by Thirdspace were still alive somewhere?
Title: Re: Babylon 5 "What If" Story poin
Post by: FUBAR-BDHR on September 22, 2008, 10:07:21 pm
"What if" early on in the Earth-Minbari war before we got severley arse whooped. A suicide taks force managed to get to Minbar and nuke a few cities?

      How does that change story? Other than, the extermination of humanity being deserved.

B5 wouldn't have been built and the Shadows could be ruling the galaxy.  Or B5 could have been built but by a Shadow alliance.  B4 wouldn't have been built either so Valen would never had a ride back. 

Need more ways?
Title: Re: Babylon 5 "What If" Story poin
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on September 22, 2008, 10:24:14 pm
B5 wouldn't have been built and the Shadows could be ruling the galaxy.  Or B5 could have been built but by a Shadow alliance.  B4 wouldn't have been built either so Valen would never had a ride back. 

Need more ways?

        Yeah but how does Earth nuking Minbar impact the other story points? Does it make the Minbari not stop at the battle of the line? Or is the some important valen-library/artifact destroyed? (like the note Sinclair wrote to himself).
 
         I mean, nuking a city is fine, but how does that affect the story line, and what are the consequences. Beyond the fact that a few more Minbari died. Maybe Dekker's got something in mind but he didn't elaborate on it.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 "What If" Story poin
Post by: FUBAR-BDHR on September 22, 2008, 10:52:08 pm
Now that's the real question isn't it?

I see at least a few possibilities. 

First it doesn't matter at all as the news doesn't reach the Minbari fleet until after the surrender.  Good BlackStar plot there.

Second it shows the Centauri that the Minibari are vulnerable and they start a second front.  Earth winds up on the wrong side of the Shadow War.

Third Earth is annihilated so no B1, B2, B3, B4 or B5 resulting in a tear in the fabric of time itself. 

Fourth like you said we could hit something critical resulting in either no battle of the line or a delay as the Minbari go back to try save their world. 
Title: Re: Babylon 5 "What If" Story poin
Post by: terran_emperor on September 23, 2008, 12:37:34 am
ah found it!
http://www.zteamproductions.com/protob5.html

What if- the main races (Humans, Minbari, Vorlons, Centauri and Narn) were exactly like their descriptions in the original flyer

Going by this Flyer, the Vorlons are the main enemy, not the shadows.
It would be hard to fit in the shadows...Maybe they would be the heroes?....:

!!!!Just got a good idea using just the information on the flyer

Or in this what if time line the shadows and Vorlons were two factions of the same race. The vorlons are evil, shadows are good. After a long war, the evil Vorlon faction were the victors. Defeated the Shadow faction went into exile, biding their time until they could stike back and when they do...it will shake the Galaxy. Meanwhile, the Vorlons have ambitions against the EA, because of a prophecy fortelling the destruction of the Vorlon Empire at the hands of the EA. They dont move directly...Instead they opporate through various other Races some directly (Like the Dilgar, Ch'Lonas, and Koulani) others by manipultion (The E-M war being the result of Vorlon manipulations)....

Meanwhile, the E-M war is pretty much the same. Except that in the following ten years, the EA and the Minbari become the B5 versions of Earth and the Vulcans from star Trek...(Except, its more like Earth with the Romulans).

The Narn and Centauri are essentially the same as in S1...Though the Narn war machine secretly recieves funding from the Vorlon Empire
Title: Re: Babylon 5 "What If" Story poin
Post by: -Norbert- on September 23, 2008, 04:50:47 am
Thanks to that post I understand the "stuck in a tincan"-comment better  :lol:

Quote
Third Earth is annihilated so no B1, B2, B3, B4 or B5 resulting in a tear in the fabric of time itself. 
Not neccesarily. In the Dark Mirror Universe fan-fict. Earth was destroyed, but both Babylon 4 and 5 were build.
One by G'Kar controlling the Great Machine on Epsilon 4 and the other by an Alliance of races allied with the Vorlons.

The implications of Babylon 4 never being build and sent back with Valen would totally screw over ANYTHING we know about the state of the galaxy from 1260 up the to point of the story.

And if Babylon 4 was never build by Earth (or anyone else) I'm sure the Vorlons would be able to build it themselfs. The only problem would be ajusting Sinclair in the right way, to make sure the repeats history rather than change it and controlling the timerift.
But from "To Dream in the City of Sorrows" we know that both Shadows and Vorlons have the technology and knowledge to controll the time rift.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 "What If" Story poin
Post by: Colonol Dekker on September 23, 2008, 04:59:57 am
I didn't really have such a deep plot in mind. Justa "If Sheridan can nuke one ship, why not a few Captains nuke Minbar" train of thought.  I play the E-M war too much and i wantd some payback...
Title: Re: Babylon 5 "What If" Story poin
Post by: Vidmaster on September 23, 2008, 05:49:47 am
Since everything I did so far was closely related (and enriching :rolleyes:) to b5 canon, I better stay away from this discussion. Maybe MAG should post here. Earth-Brakiri-War anyone?  :lol:
Title: Re: Babylon 5 "What If" Story poin
Post by: LeGuille on September 24, 2008, 03:40:51 am
My mind has always played along the lines of how the Minbari have acted towards earthers. To start, before, during and partly after the Earth-Minbari War, the Minbari Warrior-caste always considered the humans to be barbaric. It was not until the Battle of the Line that the Religious-Caste via the Grey Council thought otherwise.

With the way the Minbari really pushed back the humans, had the theory off thier shared souls not come into play, the entire fleet would have been wiped out, and Earth would have been quarantined. I say this, because the thought at that time is that we were barbaric, uncivil creatures who were nothing more than leeches upon the universe. It may have been the thought that Minbari would not have thought us ready for the universe, and would have quarantined us with a way to do that.

The best way I can think of, is the very thing that is considered sacrilege to all sentient beings. Destroying our jump gate. Imagine that. Humans completely scattered among the galaxy with the hot knife of the Minbari cut through our defenses and stopping our contamination of the Universe. It would have been the wisest decision.

Humanity would be left to the fringes of the galaxy and would fall into the care of several races within the galaxy to aide us in rebuilding away from Earth. Minbari would re-educate us. The Centauri would enslave us. The Narn would recruit us. The Vorlons... who the hell knows what they'd do...

It'd be a very different story in that case, if humanity was scattered among the Four Great races, and considered students to the Masters of the Universe. It's interesting to think about, at least.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 "What If" Story poin
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on September 24, 2008, 01:55:57 pm
My mind has always played along the lines of how the Minbari have acted towards earthers. To start, before, during and partly after the Earth-Minbari War, the Minbari Warrior-caste always considered the humans to be barbaric. It was not until the Battle of the Line that the Religious-Caste via the Grey Council thought otherwise.

With the way the Minbari really pushed back the humans, had the theory off thier shared souls not come into play, the entire fleet would have been wiped out, and Earth would have been quarantined. I say this, because the thought at that time is that we were barbaric, uncivil creatures who were nothing more than leeches upon the universe. It may have been the thought that Minbari would not have thought us ready for the universe, and would have quarantined us with a way to do that.

       Quarantined? The Minbari would have wiped the humans out. The war had absolutely nothing to do with the Minbari's view of us, it was simply the Earthers killed their leader, and the Minbari turned it into sort of a xenocidal holy war which would have not stopped until every last human was dead.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 "What If" Story poin
Post by: -Norbert- on September 24, 2008, 03:24:31 pm
"Follow them to their home panet and kill them all! Show no mercy! No mercy!"
I'm pretty sure that's exactly the words of Delenn in "In the Beginning" (slightly different wording in "Atonement" though, when she relives her memories in the dreaming ;) ).

So Akalabeth Angel is absolutely right.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 "What If" Story poin
Post by: Flipside on September 24, 2008, 05:15:30 pm
It would have been interesting to see how JMS would have handled rebuilding relations if the Minbari had to not targetted the Military first, with the intention of moving on to the Civilians later, and had, instead, sterilised each planet as they went along.

Would the surrender/peace have even been possible under those circumstances? It is kind of odd that there seemed to be no particular compulsion against targetting civilians during the civil war, which I always thought as odd, since, whilst I can understand the rule of 'Minbari do not kill Minbari' being overturned, altering the entire tactical mandate of the Warrior Caste would have been far more difficult, I would have thought.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 "What If" Story poin
Post by: LeGuille on September 24, 2008, 07:29:42 pm
Sorry, I missed an entire paragraph in my point, and I think 'Flipside' filled in the thought I originally had.

I'm assuming that the Religious-Caste would have been more opt to a surrender under extreme circumstance. There has to have been some sort of way to allow the earthers to surrender. And say this happened before the Battle of the Line, Sinclair never would have been scanned and started the revelation among the Grey Council.

The whole problem is that the Warrior and Religious castes are not very opt to agree with each other. And for the Grey Council to allow them to surrender, period, would have been looked at as bad. The Trigati would have stilled rebelled and gone rogue.

I'm assuming a lot, and yes it does seem really out of place. But it's a what-if scenario. A surrender in the sacrifice of their non-terrestrial solar systems, and their jump gate maybe not destroyed, but guarded by the Minbari, to ensure they did not leave or something.

This brings in the interest of Narn, Vorlon, and Centauri governments questioning the Minbari. And perhaps the Trigati would attempt to finish the job, and this breaks out into a civil war among religious and warrior castes. Who knows. It's probably too far-fetched.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 "What If" Story poin
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on September 24, 2008, 08:01:19 pm
I'm assuming that the Religious-Caste would have been more opt to a surrender under extreme circumstance. There has to have been some sort of way to allow the earthers to surrender. And say this happened before the Battle of the Line, Sinclair never would have been scanned and started the revelation among the Grey Council.

I'm assuming a lot, and yes it does seem really out of place. But it's a what-if scenario. A surrender in the sacrifice of their non-terrestrial solar systems, and their jump gate maybe not destroyed, but guarded by the Minbari, to ensure they did not leave or something.

This brings in the interest of Narn, Vorlon, and Centauri governments questioning the Minbari. And perhaps the Trigati would attempt to finish the job, and this breaks out into a civil war among religious and warrior castes. Who knows. It's probably too far-fetched.

       The Earth forces were trying to surrender or negotiate terms well before the battle of the line, the president's speech before the Line makes reference to that. Remember that the war was STARTED by the Religious caste, not the Warrior caste. Without some reality-shattering relevation like the shared-souls thing, I doubt that the Minbari would have ever stopped. Unless they got so tired of exterminating humanity that they left some shell of a species left. But I doubt humanity would have much in the way of society left, let alone any sort of space faring force. Except for whatever they managed to evacuate, assuming it wasn't hunted down and killed like all the other ships.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 "What If" Story poin
Post by: terran_emperor on September 24, 2008, 10:25:56 pm
...Read the Babylon 5 Parallel Universe at http://www.b5-dark-mirror.demon.co.uk/ for fantastic "What If"...

It was rather interesting to "see" all these familiar faces in completly different roles...Especially Ivanova...:drevil: Cant say any more without giving spoilers

Maybe this could be made into a campaign...

Of course it would mean putting engines on the B5 and giving it more anti-cap and anti fighter weapons...
Actually, I pictured the EAS Babylon in this story being a cross between S3 Babylon 5 and Grand Inquisitor Dask's EAS Tillman Dreadnought (The EA Civil war upgrade of course), which can be found at http://efni.org

Random Fact: The omega deatroyer was originally going to have fighter bays in its rotating section. The starfuries would be launched in the same way as they are from B5. If you look carefully you can see the bay doors on the CGI model in the show.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 "What If" Story poin
Post by: -Norbert- on September 25, 2008, 04:26:57 am
I also love the Dark Mirror.
I just wish the author would have read the Technomage Trilogy before writing it.
Since I love those three books, the differences are bothering me a little bit (though not as much as the way technomages are portraited in the Centauri Trilogy mind you).

Quote
It is kind of odd that there seemed to be no particular compulsion against targetting civilians during the civil war, which I always thought as odd, since, whilst I can understand the rule of 'Minbari do not kill Minbari' being overturned, altering the entire tactical mandate of the Warrior Caste would have been far more difficult, I would have thought.
The Minbari didn't shy away from killing civilians in the EMW. They just went about neutralizing the threats first and finish the helpless ones later. Once they ran out of soldiers they would have started in on the civilians. And in the eyes of the warrior caste everyone whos not a soldier/warrior is a civilian, regardless wether they are armed or not.
Besides in the EMW they were led by the Grey Council.
In the civil war Shakiri led alone. And thanks to Delenn and Neroon we all know he's a honorless, powerhungry coward.

Quote
I doubt that the Minbari would have ever stopped. Unless they got so tired of exterminating humanity that they left some shell of a species left. But I doubt humanity would have much in the way of society left, let alone any sort of space faring force. Except for whatever they managed to evacuate, assuming it wasn't hunted down and killed like all the other ships.
I guess the Vorlons might have interfered more directly if their manipulations failed. After all Kosh told Delenn "The Humans are the key".
And if not, it could still be an interesting story. Anyone know Titan A.E.?
Title: Re: Babylon 5 "What If" Story poin
Post by: Kassad on September 25, 2008, 06:03:58 am
Quote
The Minbari didn't shy away from killing civilians in the EMW. They just went about neutralizing the threats first and finish the helpless ones later. Once they ran out of soldiers they would have started in on the civilians. And in the eyes of the warrior caste everyone whos not a soldier/warrior is a civilian, regardless wether they are armed or not.
Besides in the EMW they were led by the Grey Council.

As far I recall the Minbari didn't kill civilians (from the movie "In ¡the beginning")
Fontaine: They are moving methodically through the outer colonies, wiping out our defense structures and leaving colonies vulnerable. Civilian structures are being left alone for now.
But then say that the Minbari are going to destroy every defense structure all the way to earth, and then kill the remaning humans, although that was a theory
Title: Re: Babylon 5 "What If" Story poin
Post by: -Norbert- on September 25, 2008, 06:58:17 am
"Civilian structures are being left alone for now".
Two things in the statement that I find interresting:
1) structures: Surely civilian ships tried to flee. If they were left alone, the general would habe mentioned it, and not only said structures.
For me that sounds like the minbari jump in, blast everything in orbit (no matter if military or civilian), make some quick strikes at the surface to take out military bases and move on to the next system.
2) for now: As I said, neutralize a potential threats and move on to the next one without wasting time with helpless civilians. Those can be dealt with at their leisure once the military is gone.

Wiping out the complete population of a whole planet takes time after all, even with the minbaris technology. And it leaves you open for attacks from behind, unless you guard your back, in which case the "pacification" takes even longer.

And in the Minbari Civil war they showed that they have little to no scuples to commit genocide if it is "justified" or "for the greater good".

You are right of course that it is a theory. Since the war never progressed to the point were the absolute truth would have been shown, speculating is all we can do (or ask JMS).
But from all the information we have about the war and the Minbari mindset, I think it's the most likely outcome that the Minbari would have wiped out Humanity, or at the very least destroyed Earth.
With the Minbari way of twisting words around "follow them to their homeplanet and kill them all" could be constructed as only killing those on that planet.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 "What If" Story poin
Post by: karajorma on September 25, 2008, 07:22:06 am
In the Minbari civil war the Religious caste and Warrior caste were at war. Both barely paid any attention to the Worker Caste.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if that was how they acted during the war with Earth. Civilians were obviously human worker caste and ignored.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 "What If" Story poin
Post by: starlord on September 25, 2008, 08:25:22 am
Don't forget that minburo is at work to scavenge the docs and scripts of the part 2 of his "tales of the janus" campaign. this campaign takes place during the earth minbari war and since the EW campaign stayed at the demo stage it might be interesting to see it completed for it to feel a few gaps. might someone be interested to get those docs?

Also, do we have the nova X battlecruiser implemented in TPB (that modified nova dreadnaught with x lasers instead of pulse cannons: It is my understanding that a few were made before the omega destroyer came in). The campaign needs that vessel it seems.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 "What If" Story poin
Post by: LeGuille on September 25, 2008, 10:01:18 am
Okay, so from the summarization of it, had the minbari finished the job, would they have killed Earth alone and any opposing military caste? leaving the rest to be put in strict internment camps, or put into slavery / hunted down...

Or are we really going to assume that JMS would have alotted a species as intellectual as the minbari to completely wipe us out? I think the Vorlons would have intervened at one point...

Honestly, even if the minbari would have been completely vendetted to exterminate us, we would have found ways to hid among the galaxy and escape them as they hunted us.

Any species harboring us would be considered a threat to the minbari, too. I mean, they obviously have a serious superiority complex.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 "What If" Story poin
Post by: Trivial Psychic on September 26, 2008, 12:24:56 am
...Read the Babylon 5 Parallel Universe at http://www.b5-dark-mirror.demon.co.uk/ for fantastic "What If"...
It was rather interesting to "see" all these familiar faces in completly different roles...Especially Ivanova...:drevil: Cant say any more without giving spoilers
Maybe this could be made into a campaign...
Of course it would mean putting engines on the B5 and giving it more anti-cap and anti fighter weapons...
Actually, I pictured the EAS Babylon in this story being a cross between S3 Babylon 5 and Grand Inquisitor Dask's EAS Tillman Dreadnought (The EA Civil war upgrade of course), which can be found at http://efni.org

I too very much enjoyed the Dark Mirror, but I think you have the wrong impression of the EAS Babylon.  It wasn't a ship version of B5, rather a Nova class that's been upgraded, overhauled, and patched together over the years, eventually becoming something more like an Omega class, then a Shadow Omega (of sorts).
Spoiler:
Now, the story states a few things about the EMW that don't jive with the standard B5 universe (beyond the Battle-Of-The-Line incident), but since changes in the future also affect the past in both universes, I could possibly see how the Butterfly Effect might mean that these inconsistencies are accounted for.  The inconsistencies of which I speak, center around the EAS Babylon.  In the normal universe, it was the EAS Lexington, Hyperion class that Sheridan was serving aboard at the time of the Black Star incident, and he was the 1st officer, but in Dark Mirror, it was the Nova class EAS Babylon that Sheridan was aboard, and already serving as commanding officer.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 "What If" Story poin
Post by: starlord on September 26, 2008, 02:18:31 am
precisely the nova X, no?
Title: Re: Babylon 5 "What If" Story poin
Post by: -Norbert- on September 26, 2008, 11:20:39 am
Spoiler:
I just recently re-read the Dark Mirror and it never mentiones what ship he was on during the Black Star incident.
It was mentioned that he destroyed some Minbari war cruisers with the Babylon during the 10 years between the battle of the line and the main story (even though I'd like to know how, since in the first chapter they are testing out the Narn jammer and fusion bomb for the first time....), maybe that's were the mixup came from.

There was something said about the Babylon being a prototype of some sort before being modified (and patched up) beyond belonging to any class.
Quote
precisely the nova X, no?
That was my impression too, or at least something pretty close to it.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 "What If" Story poin
Post by: Trivial Psychic on September 27, 2008, 12:02:52 am
Did you read the prologue?
Title: Re: Babylon 5 "What If" Story poin
Post by: -Norbert- on September 27, 2008, 12:31:56 pm
Well....
I did, but that was years ago. Since I already knew the situation I skipped the prologue when I re-read it.

Quote
The one moment of hope came when Captain John Sheridan of the EAS Babylon managed to destroy the Minbari flagship by trickery.
But I guess it wasn't so much a diversion form the official storyline but rather a mistake in formulating it.
If I wanted to say he destroyed the Black Star while on board the Babylon I'd put it as "Sheridan on the" or "Sheridan and his", but not "of the".

But if you want to be absolutely exact, then "In the Beginning" isn't canon either. Because in the first episode of season two Sheridan explains to Ivannova that he destoryed the Black Star and two other Minbari cruisers and  Sinclair said the Minbari never pulled a sneak attack.
In "In the Beginning" the Black Star does pull a sneak attack on the fleet Sheridan is in, and does so alone.

Edited out a quite grave mistake due to late-night-posting
Thanks Trivial Psychic.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 "What If" Story poin
Post by: Trivial Psychic on September 27, 2008, 06:38:40 pm
I think you're speaking of "In The Beginning", not "Into The Fire".  The later was the final battle against the Vorlons & Shadows at Coriana 6.  The episode where the Black Star incident was first mentioned was "Points of Departure" at the beginning of Season 1.  Sheridan also mentions in that conversation that he mined the asteroid field in Earth's solar system, which would have put that incident much closer to the end of the war than ITB indicated.  B5 has many inconsistencies, but what show of that type doesn't?
Title: Re: Babylon 5 "What If" Story poin
Post by: LeGuille on September 28, 2008, 12:35:55 am
You could always play it off as this simple fact:

Sheridan was suddenly pulled into a new position. He may or not have stretched his truth, or shrunk the truth to try and set himself up. I don't think he believed he'd be permanently stationed there. That and information is often distorted in war-time. Sheridan may have told the truth while everyone else believes a floating heroic stand, even if it was sneaky.

I'd just chalk that all up as simple mis-information and Human error.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 "What If" Story poin
Post by: terran_emperor on September 28, 2008, 12:45:56 am
Well, Ive always thought of the Black Star incident happening about 9 months to a year into the EM war.

As to the Asteroid belt, well i figure the Black Star was showing off by carrying out gutsy high profile behind-enemy-lines attacks...

Sorta like it was saying "I am attackingyou  deep in your terratory, and Im powerful enough to do so openly" if you know what i mean.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 "What If" Story poin
Post by: -Norbert- on September 28, 2008, 05:19:13 am
That's a very good point.
It never really worked out for me that the Minbari would skip past Io and Mars, but still get ambushed in the asteroid field.
Even the EA doesn't have to fly all that way in realspace (at least not ships capable of opening their own jump-points) and the Minbari have even better jump drives.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 "What If" Story poin
Post by: terran_emperor on September 28, 2008, 04:44:28 pm
Another minor incosistancy - in "The Long Twilight Struggle" Franklin says the Minbari skipped Io, yet in "ITB" the President says that they "lost contact with Io and must conclude that they too have fallen"

My explanation for this: The Minbari set up a Rallying Point near Io, either in Normal Space or Hyperspace and jammed the colony's comms to prevent Pre-emptive strikes...
Title: Re: Babylon 5 "What If" Story poin
Post by: -Norbert- on September 29, 2008, 06:22:47 am
Lost contact doesn't mean that Io was attacked. I also thought that prior to the attack the minbari started jamming the communications of earth.
Maybe the communication lines to Mars were good enough to get through the jammers?
Title: Re: Babylon 5 "What If" Story poin
Post by: Flipside on September 29, 2008, 09:13:00 am
I suppose it depends where the Minbari are, I suspect Earth would have lost contact with Mars once the Minbari Fleet were inside its orbit.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 "What If" Story poin
Post by: -Norbert- on September 29, 2008, 10:33:53 am
But is it possible to jam realspace out of hyperspace?
Title: Re: Babylon 5 "What If" Story poin
Post by: FUBAR-BDHR on September 29, 2008, 01:18:08 pm
Don't see why not.  They communicate from real space to hyperspace and back.  Also they can deploy sensors in hyperspace and pick them up in real space. 
Title: Re: Babylon 5 "What If" Story poin
Post by: Vidmaster on September 29, 2008, 01:28:17 pm
even if it's silly and against all physical laws, (inter-dimensional radio :lol:) yes it's possible in B5.
Title: Re: Babylon 5 "What If" Story poin
Post by: LeGuille on September 29, 2008, 08:06:33 pm
On that note: What of internet-type communications? Like surfing the interstellar web. I remember when Sheridan sent a comminque to a Minbari ship waiting in Hyperspace. So, is it supposed that once every so often they update the 'internet' for each sector independently via the gate? If that is so, then in hyperspace information is floating around, waiting to be sent out. Or is there a receiver attached to the gates that picks it another way? Since I know they can communicate to ships in Hyperspace, do they need to open up a hyperspace jump to receive the signal?

Or is it just like it is now, and is constantly linked on a hyperspace wireless signal?
Title: Re: Babylon 5 "What If" Story poin
Post by: Demitri on October 02, 2008, 06:12:09 pm
I could be wrong, but didnt b5 have to open the jump gate to summon the 2nd minbari warship in the epsiode with the trigati?
Title: Re: Babylon 5 "What If" Story poin
Post by: Daeron on October 03, 2008, 02:36:30 am
I think they had to open the gate that time because they wanted to use an especially strong signal to make sure it could be picked up by anyone. Sheridan knew the second Minbari warcruiser had to be somewhere in subspace around that region.

Regular communication through hyperspace beacons wouldn't cut it in this particular case.

Title: Re: Babylon 5 "What If" Story poin
Post by: -Norbert- on October 03, 2008, 03:07:56 am
Before sending the message Sheridan asked Ivannova if she could send the message without the Tragati intercepting it.

My guess would be, it was an optical message rather than a radio message and thus can only be read by being in the path of it (at least in real space).
In Hyperspace the laser (or whatever it was) would most likely then travel in a straight line, which should make it travel along the beacon, which is the logical waiting place for the Minbari cruiser.
Unless Hyperspace somehow refractures light (or whatever the beam was made up from), in which case the message would be shorter range, but could be received in a larger area, probably cone shaped away from the jumppoint.