Hard Light Productions Forums
Hosted Projects - Standalone => Diaspora => Topic started by: Adalla on October 02, 2008, 12:57:23 am
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The unveiling of Diaspora is the best news the 9th Battlestar Group (which was JUST recently put on pause until further notice) and BSG Pilots have heard in oh well...forever!
The Lords of Kobol bless all yall!
So Say We All!
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Damn nice to hear such a positive response. Thanks Adalla.
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No no...thank YOU.
You might want to read about why the biggest and most active Beyond the Red Line gaming club started dying ever so slowly for the past year and a half until this very day which forced us to put our club on "pause until further notice".
Let me put it bluntly. Number 1 factor for the demise of BSG9 was the fact that BtRL demo (on which our club's health depended) ended up being boring. One of the biggest factors for this was the lag and unfair advantage a host had, which made the game incredibly annoying. This is arguable of course, but I believe the fact that nobody today plays BtRL is a testament to the truth of what I am saying.
The fans have tried to do what they could. FREDders tried to build campaigns and missions, clan and community leaders tried to keep their members going. But only so far. There is only so many things you can do with only a Viper and Raider...the Galactica or at least some other cap ships SHOULD have been released. Instead, the 2 patches released in the year and a half since the release of the demo did absolutely nothing except one thing...infuriate fans.
I'm posting all this because I'm the type of person to voice my opinions, as well as listen to that of others. I'm also the type to not give a darn when appropriate. For example, when fans that tried to voice their opinions, regardless of what they might be, stopped being welcome on the BtRL forum...well, most of us just left and never came back.
I have faith that under Karajorma's leadership things will be different this time around. Kara was the only visible Dev (that I noticed at least) that seemed to actually care about the fans.
Anyways, I wish you all the best, and if you wish to read my rant and reason for the "pause" of the biggest BtRL ...I should say former BtRL gaming clan, well you should check out the latest article I wrote on the BSG9 front page (http://www.majesticsites.net/BSG9)
As I stated on the BSG Pilots forums, BSG Pilots and the 9th Battlestar Group now officially support Diaspora and we will be breaking all ties and relationships with Beyond the Red Line. We will stop all news updates, remove all videos, and stop officially supporting BtRL. Unofficially our members may do as they please of course.
Best wishes,
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Well as far as I'm concerned you can support both. Just sticky our links and news higher. :D
Remember that the demo was made by a team that largely consists of those now on Diaspora. We're still very proud of it but we've taken on board the criticisms and we're planning on giving you something much better for multiplayer fans like yourselves in R1.
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To be honest I think you should give a lot of importance to the single player mode as well. Not everyone has the opportunity of playing in multi... :(
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We will. Singleplayer will and always will be the main thrust of the game. However that doesn't mean that multi has to be treated like a poor cousin.
The real die hard fans of BtRL, the ones who were still playing it months later were the multi players and I want them to know that we're not making the mistakes that finally drove them away from playing it.
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I want them to know that we're not making the mistakes that finally drove them away from playing it.
Indeed. I was one of those people who were frustrated at the very limited options in the BtRL demo, and I can promise you that when we release, you will have a lot of ships to play with. And in fact, we've been working on multiplayer missions for a while already, while waiting for the models and story needed for the single player campaign to be completed... meaning that even at this early point, we have more (and more diverse) multiplayer missions finished and ready to play than the BtRL demo ever had ;)
Oh, and it might be worth mentioning that ships and missions aren't the only area where we aim to do better. Many things have been changed 'under the hood' since the engine version the BtRL demo used that multi players will find exciting...
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Are you going to create fully cutscened missions with take off, landing and important events sequences? Are you going to use the same BSG style(with rapid zooms)? :)
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Maybe: http://www.diaspora-game.com/videos.html
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Maybe? They're a must have! :nod:
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Yea, and also a PITA to make :P
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Maybe? They're a must have! :nod:
Not if we can get in-game pilotable landings and tube launches. :p Why animate it if we can have the player control it. :D
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Best wishes,
... from me too. :)
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The real die hard fans of BtRL, the ones who were still playing it months later were the multi players and I want them to know that we're not making the mistakes that finally drove them away from playing it.
Thank you!
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Thank you Adalla. Those words born hope in me :D
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Not if we can get in-game pilotable landings and tube launches. :p Why animate it if we can have the player control it. :D
What about using cutscenes for wings other than the player? Ex. a small cutscene showing the Cylon Raiders taking off from a Basestar.
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In-game cutscenes that pull you out of the cockpit to watch them = pure evil.
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Even if they last only a few seconds? Even if they still allow the player to control his fighter(Ex. he's closing in on the Basestar, the Raiders are launched iin the cutscene and the player keeps full control of the Viper)?
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Even then. They absolutely ruin immersion. Besides how is it a cutscene if the player still has control of their viper anyway? :confused:
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I see. The main perspective is and will always be the one of the Viper/Raider pilot, right?
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Or Raptor/Heavy Raider. :)
In game cutscenes can have their place but I'm certainly not going to ruin the immersion we've spent ages building up for something as frivolous as an enemy capship launching fighters.
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Thank goodness, too. I hated those cutscenes in Starlancer.
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Starlancer is an object lesson in how not to do in-game cutscenes in a space game. :D
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Heck yeah...if I recall, my biggest request for a BSG sim was realistic launch and recovery flight ops :) Meaning starting from the hangar deck, getting pushed into a launch tube, seeing other Vipers and Raptors and objects on the hangar deck, launching in the tube, coming back for a hands on approach landing ;) getting on the lifts, and back down into the hangar deck :P
Hey, we all dream of something, and the pilot in me dreams of realistic hangar, launch and landing ops :P
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Hi to the new forum, glad to see its still alive, and thriving. ;)
I`ll be watching. :nervous: Hehehe. :p
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guys i get choked up at this... thank you for not letting the BSG project it should have been die in the gutter!
Forever a follower ... BSG_9Raziel
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:welcomesilver:
Welcome to the HLPBB, Raziel! :D
Diaspora is going to be a great game... :)
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I cannot wait for this. I am seriously struggling to put into words what I'm thinking. With such a large portion of the team responsible for the BtRL demo working on this project, and the obvious dedication and pride you all have in your work, i cant adequately describe how much I'm looking forward to this.
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Or Raptor/Heavy Raider. :)
In game cutscenes can have their place but I'm certainly not going to ruin the immersion we've spent ages building up for something as frivolous as an enemy capship launching fighters.
so say we all!
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:welcomesilver:
I agree, but I still think some short cutscenes should be added. Ok, let's exclude a cutscene showing the take off/landing, but what about stuff like a Raptor jumping in or Cylon Raiders being sortied from a Basestar? :)
It's a matter of immersion, of course, but it's also a matter of getting the game closer to the show. :D
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Keep talking about it. You're strengthening my will not to have them. :p
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Cutscenes. Only between the missions, advancing the plot of the campaign, and skippable.
Cinematics without player control; as little as possible, only in cases where the player is needed to do something at exact time and place, and preferably also skippable (if that's even possible).
:v: did it right. There's no reason to do it in any other way since it's the best way to do it.
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Of course :v: didn't have some of the sexps we have now. Still I'm not one for a lot of ingame player control or camera scenes but done occasionally for plot it can be a good thing. Besides they give you time to drink your beer. :cool:
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:v: guys claimed they didn't like landing and take off sequences, that's why there's no trace of them in the game.
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Yes there is. There is the one mission where you take off from an Orion. Well not really but it looks that way.
No having something like that every mission would get old fast.
Wonder if you could do an animated sequence for the scramble (or is that red-alert) briefing screen with something like Vipers going down the tubes. That would alleviate the need for it ingame.
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:v: guys claimed they didn't like landing and take off sequences, that's why there's no trace of them in the game.
I believe it was landings, not take offs.
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Uhm...
I read somewhere that :v: didn't like more realistic sequences like the ones used in WCS. Placing a fighter in front of an Orion's fighterbay in FRED doesn't turn the beginning of that mission into a take off sequence, you'll need to power up the fighter from the inside and launch correctly to do that.
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Wonder if you could do an animated sequence for the scramble (or is that red-alert) briefing screen with something like Vipers going down the tubes. That would alleviate the need for it ingame.
Why on earth would we want to alleviate that need? :p
If we find it's impossible to do then sure. But until then I'd far rather see a proper in-game tube launch than some pre-rendered cutscene.
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I agree but I thought that couldn't be implemented yet. Thought the briefing might be a way around it.
Are you planning on tube launches for multi as well? Sounds like a nightmare combination. Respawns, bay launches, player AI, etc. I can probably break that just by thinking about it.
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The respawn won't bring you back to the launchers, I think...
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Are you planning on tube launches for multi as well? Sounds like a nightmare combination. Respawns, bay launches, player AI, etc. I can probably break that just by thinking about it.
We'll have to see really. :)
But we can't use command briefs or cutscenes there anyway. :)
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No command briefs in multi? Could have sworn I did that once in testing.
Anyway I know the scramble/red-alert briefing works in multi. Just hit a mission last night that used it and I've done it before to get by that old 3 primary loadout bug that's since been fixed. Might be a little flaky on the client side at the start of a mission do to players hitting accept at different times though.
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The respawn won't bring you back to the launchers, I think...
Could this be done via coding? Define a point on a model, say point X for the starboard pod and Y for the larboard pod ( and X1 for the first tube, X2 for the second...), add SEXPs to let the player spawn always at this specific point or randomly between these points.
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One of the big problems is the AI go nuts in multi if you put them anywhere near a bay. Believe me I tried to get this working for weeks and it wasn't a small bay either. You'd probably be looking at AI behavior changes to get it working.
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The problem with takeoff sequences is when you're taking off for the 11th time on the same mission you start to get a little ticked off in teh same way a person gets annoyed for too much dialogue before the action (for which I am very guilty)
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well take offs would only be... a few secs long? (also seen as a penalty for death?) if its a whole state of the union address before gettin to it. I understand, i dont like those ether.
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I think it might get a bit aggravating.
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But until then I'd far rather see a proper in-game tube launch than some pre-rendered cutscene.
Amen to that!...ahem..I mean So Say We All! ;)
Why deprive the player of the incredible experience of being launched from a tube, as well as the experience of landing (and hopefully, also hangar operations, going up and down on the lift etc).
I personally will be playing this game to get a taste of the EXPERIENCE of being a Viper pilot. That means I want to be the one giving the thumbs up that I am ready to launch and feel the 6 second rush as the Viper shoots into the coldness of space.
We have had enough "observer" role by watching BSG on TV. We dont want the game to be another TV show. We want to BE in the BSG universe and experience it.
THat means, cutscenes, in my personal opinion, shoudl only exist between missions and not in-game at all.
my 2 cents at least ;)
Adalla
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Again you are not taking into consideration multi-player. Maybe a cutscene would be good for single but even if it were possible in multi after playing the same mission 50 times in multi it will get old. Actual tube launches would be OK if they could be done reliably. Landings can be done (well faked) already.
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I hope there is nothing to "fake" about a landing.
If Diaspora is really going to call itself a simulator, I believe realistic and challenging landings should be part of it.
After all we dont see Cat and the other nuggets have such a hard time with combat landings for nothing ;)
Granted that whole episode where she was on stims and couldnt do the combat landing was silly. Why not deactive/reduce the grav field/magnetic field and have her come in like Apollo did in the Miniseries on his first landing on the Galactica.
I never really understood that episode.
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Galactica doesn't have an autoland system, remember?
You can't really do a realistic BSG landing in the Freespace 2 engine. The closest we could get is flying a ship into the flight pod doors. We can't easily simulate HUD elements for landing, from what I know.
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You can do that with scripting. Two vectors appearing on the HUD should be enough...like in Ace Combat.
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Thing is, it needs to be a game also, and that means accessibility to nuggets, people are going to lose interest somewhat in a game where they spend ages getting a mission right and then kill themselves landing. Remember Space Shuttle? ;)
Whilst it would be nice to have something that made landings challenging, what most people want to do is get out there and frag toasters, and that is what will be on the plate, in heaps :D
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No riskful landings but something worth some attention that "giudes" the player and doesn't turn all landings into hands-on ones. Even messages would be nice ("You're too fast, pilot!", "You're on the money, carry on!", "Welcome back!")... :)
IMO it should give the feeling of a true "Land on the Galactica" and not an usual and poor "Get close to the Galactica's hangar".
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Uh huh, blatantly disregard that it's not possible to do at the moment, and the best we can do is stick a waypoint in a massive hangar and fly into that (a la Wing Commander Saga).
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I wouldn't be too sure of that. :p
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:welcomesilver:
I agree, but I still think some short cutscenes should be added. Ok, let's exclude a cutscene showing the take off/landing, but what about stuff like a Raptor jumping in or Cylon Raiders being sortied from a Basestar? :)
It's a matter of immersion, of course, but it's also a matter of getting the game closer to the show. :D
For the Raptor, why cutscene it? Just dynamically pick a jump-in point ahead and a little to the side of the player so they can't miss it and have the 3d model jump right in!
It's not the sort of thing that will happen in the middle of combat, so a mission parameter could be go to a waypoint, hover and wait for ______. Then it jumps in in all its glory! Right there! No cutscene, fully in keeping with in-cockpit immersion. That pattern would work for a Demetrius jump back into the fleet Vipers flailing to miss mission event too.
If you kept the Raiders cutscene to pre-mission brief or maybe while sitting in the bird before getting stuffed in the launch-tube I think you could have the sexy scenes while avoiding immersion kill.
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No riskful landings but something worth some attention that "giudes" the player and doesn't turn all landings into hands-on ones. Even messages would be nice ("You're too fast, pilot!", "You're on the money, carry on!", "Welcome back!")... :)
IMO it should give the feeling of a true "Land on the Galactica" and not an usual and poor "Get close to the Galactica's hangar".
Instead of trying to compute angles in the hud, use a fixed reference to the landing bay and lights that look something like this. (http://www.lakehurst.navy.mil/nlweb/images/Image47.gif)
make the drop and attitude lights dim red on left, gree on right yellow drop light along centerline and white box w/centerline around the landing area.
Wrap bright emissive lights in a small one-end-open box that is angled to mask their visibility --> When you are off centerline you see light light up corresponding to how far off centerline you are. The pic shows 2 bright green indicating 2 units (xx degrees) right of centerline. The meatball can be simulated similarly.
Maybe provide a fixed lading mode Hud cross "+" symbol that can be used for pilot attitude comparison to the lineup-lines. Vertical down centerline and horizontal parallel to the lineup lines but visually aim the cross center point onto the flight deck, not at the red/green/yellow/white conjunction.
I'm a retired helo-bubba and I can land a high-end Hornet simulator using that proposed system after the second try. Not much practice needed to compensate for a 135kt higher difference in landing area closure rate compared to what I'm used to. It's pretty damn brain dead and that's why it is looking at being put into USN fleetwide use. That should make something like it nugget friendly in-game.
This method also means no in-game real-time math calculations needed to do any light or glide slope computations. It is all be pre-baked into the angles of the masking polygon boxes. The polys and lights could be SEXP'ed "on" so they don't take up computing resources during combat when not landing.
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Thing is, it needs to be a game also, and that means accessibility to nuggets, people are going to lose interest somewhat in a game where they spend ages getting a mission right and then kill themselves landing. Remember Space Shuttle?
Whilst it would be nice to have something that made landings challenging, what most people want to do is get out there and frag toasters, and that is what will be on the plate, in heaps
That's why MSFS and IL2 and many other sims have Options ------> Settings -------> Realism Settings ------> I like to pwn (for IQs less than 65) ;)
No but seriously, most sims solve that problem by having variable difficulty/realism settings.
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With scripting it's possible to use textured particles.
Al we need is a series of lights intended to guide the player to the hangar, or at least messages.
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We do have an in-universe example of what the landing sequence looks like, and it does involve a 'meatball'. I believe it was in Final Cut.
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With scripting it's possible to use textured particles.
Al we need is a series of lights intended to guide the player to the hangar, or at least messages.
Yes, true. That requires more programming and graphics computations than simple switched-on fixed-geometry/lights though. Get the lights and masking polys positioned right and NEVER have a bug related to them. It's the same technique used in the real world for the same reasons, only there a Fresnel Lens is substituted for the mask, still a matter of physically restricting angular visibility.
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Check Nuke's video about turret control on YouTube - he used a pair of lines on the HUD. :)
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Hi there!
Nervouspete here, I was on the BRTL forum and posted infrequently, usually about stuff that had nowt much to do with the mod since I couldn't really think of anything to say about it, since there were never any updates after the demo and not much feedback opportunities. Doh'eth! As time passed I grew increasingly confused and disinterested due to the lack of any fun BTRL conversation that wasn't immediately nipped in the bud with 'when it's done'. I'd still log in once or twice every week and have a scout round to see if there was anything going on, but nothing. I began to fear for the health of the mod, especially since tumbleweeds had begun to roll through the forum.
Which was a shame, as the BTRL demo was pretty fun and very impressive, especially the music! (And I actually liked the briefing voice - so shoot me.) It was very frustrating however to see nothing new come along. At all. Even some posts saying how it was coming along would have been welcome. The biggest error was the lack of items to play with in Fred. If a Cylon Heavy Raider and a Raptor had been added, and a couple more passenger/cargo ships then there could have been a lot more Fredding done and a load more fun missions. As it was, it became a bit dull repeating various interpretations of 'the ore-miner captain has lost his Jump Engine keys, possibly down the back of the sofa. Or behind the fridge. Protect him while he finds them!' - Despite the best efforts of some very talented user mission creators, it grew stale.
So I was feeling pretty despondent.
Until I found you guys! Hurrah! Etc.
Basically, I like the cut of your jib! Keeping us at least semi-regularily updated will increase enthusiasm and help recruitment for
the mod. What I've seen so far has looked quite impressive, though in my opinion possibly not as polished as some of the screenshots we saw in BTRL. However, since you've assured that a fair few of these screenshots contain placeholders, I'd say you're well on the way to something amazing. I really wish you success with this one. Looks to me like you're angling for two different halves, one being following the show and another campaign of a 'what-if Six never got it on with Baltar' where the two races go toe-to-toe in a war, rather than a massacre. That's just a hunch though.
I love the Bolitho as well. Now if you do a medical ship called The Maturin and a frigate called The Aubrey, I'd be one happy nugget!
I really wish you luck Kara, and the rest of you guys and gals. A release system in the style of the laudable Babylon Project mod sounds good too. Don't burn yourself out though and forget you have social lives or anything, though! :D
By the way, I respect the way you consider the great schism an 'internal affair' and aren't hosting grievences. I guess however frustrating it was, it wasn't an easy choice to make though. I still wish Omni luck with his mod, and will be pleasantly surprised and indulgent towards any release he puts out, but my attentions and affections are now transfered to the Diaspora team!
Thanks again and best of luck.
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The biggest error was the lack of items to play with in Fred. If a Cylon Heavy Raider and a Raptor had been added, and a couple more passenger/cargo ships then there could have been a lot more Fredding done and a load more fun missions. As it was, it became a bit dull repeating various interpretations of 'the ore-miner captain has lost his Jump Engine keys, possibly down the back of the sofa. Or behind the fridge. Protect him while he finds them!' - Despite the best efforts of some very talented user mission creators, it grew stale.
We're not making that mistake. :) As I've said before R1 will include a capship from each side, several RTF ships and a large number of fighters to fly. That's more than enough for the 3rd party FREDders to keep everyone entertained between our releases.
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We're not making that mistake. :) As I've said before R1 will include a capship from each side, several RTF ships and a large number of fighters to fly. That's more than enough for the 3rd party FREDders to keep everyone entertained between our releases.
Right :nod:
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The biggest error was the lack of items to play with in Fred. If a Cylon Heavy Raider and a Raptor had been added, and a couple more passenger/cargo ships then there could have been a lot more Fredding done and a load more fun missions. As it was, it became a bit dull repeating various interpretations of 'the ore-miner captain has lost his Jump Engine keys, possibly down the back of the sofa. Or behind the fridge. Protect him while he finds them!' - Despite the best efforts of some very talented user mission creators, it grew stale.
We're not making that mistake. :) As I've said before R1 will include a capship from each side, several RTF ships and a large number of fighters to fly. That's more than enough for the 3rd party FREDders to keep everyone entertained between our releases.
Hurrah!
To ask for anything more would be akin to demanding the moon on a stick!
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Mmmm, Moonstick.
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hey, is it only me or has the BtrL forum disappeared from its website? Is it officially dead?
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Judging from the comments on the forum (http://www.game-warden.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6723) and website (http://www.game-warden.com/bsg/about.html) they're still working on it.
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The forum is still there, though it appears they've taken the link off the website.
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Nice influx of proto-HLP'ers. They'll soon adjust to our atmosphere. :nod:
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I believe you'll soon adjust to me.
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WE ARE HARD LIGHT PRODUCTIONS. YOU WILL LOWER YOUR FIREWALLS AND SURRENDER YOUR KEYBOARDS. WE WILL ADD YOUR INTELLECTUAL AND VERNACULAR DISTINCTIVENESS TO OUR OWN. YOUR FORUMS WILL ADAPT TO SERVICE US. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.
I miss Shrike.
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wrong TV show. Freespace doesn't have a StarTrek Conversion so far, thank (the non-existing) god :).
Anyway, I would still like to see BtrL finished, since the story (semi-show like) showed a lot of promise.
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Anyway, I would still like to see BtrL finished, since the story (semi-show like) showed a lot of promise.
The BtRL demo storyline was independent from any planned bigger release, and was basicly formed around the finished assets we had at the time.
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wrong TV show. Freespace doesn't have a StarTrek Conversion so far, thank (the non-existing) god :).
Anyway, I would still like to see BtrL finished, since the story (semi-show like) showed a lot of promise.
It's a reference to one of the oldest HLP members, Shrike. That was his sig.
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The BtRL demo storyline was independent from any planned bigger release, and was basicly formed around the finished assets we had at the time.
yeah, but as far as I could tell from the videos (for example the ModDB contest), you would be doing something similar as I am doing in my FortuneHunters campaigns for TBP: retelling the events of the show from a perspective of a pilot never seen on the screen.
Am I mistaken?
@Battuda: Right, now that you remember me! Shrike had that in bold letters written in his sig :)
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To be honest I think you should give a lot of importance to the single player mode as well. Not everyone has the opportunity of playing in multi... :(
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So may I gather that flight deck landing and launch tube scrambles aren't being ruled out?
I'll offer my opinion that in-game cut-scenes that interrupt during play would be annoying. Saying that, I wouldn't rule out the sheer wickedness of having Kara Thrace pop up onto my HUD in the BSG-stylized blue light dispersing orders.
Would pre-recorded video shorts have a place in Diaspora in-game not interrupting play?
As for landing and the launch-tube thing, it would be amazing to have it straight from jumping into the cockpit and having the glass/plexi canopy closing, having the various viper launch support personnel preparing the viper for launch then launching.
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Don't bump old threads.