Hard Light Productions Forums

Community Projects => The FreeSpace Upgrade Project => Topic started by: psyhotik on October 14, 2008, 07:17:47 am

Title: Colossus model sugestion
Post by: psyhotik on October 14, 2008, 07:17:47 am
Hi! I would like to suggest a small fix of GTVA Colossus model. I'm not a modeller so I don't know if this is possible or make sense but let me try :)

Colossus model seems to have its 'catchment point' (rotation axis) moved to the rear so it doesn't turn around the center (like other ships) but rather around its rear, 'swinging around like a baseball bat' (try to rotate Colossus in FRED around X or Y axis to see what I mean). This effect can be also observed in model viewer programs so I assume it's the matter of model, not tbl values. Maybe it would be possible to move the catchment point closer to the center of the model to make Colossus turn more realistically? This probably won't change much in original FS2 campaign (this glitch was in Retail too) as Colossus is usually standing still, but may be useful for fan-made missions using Colossus model.

Also one more thing:

The cutscene about Colossus tells it has missile launchers. Tbl shows it has them, but mounted in primary banks - '$Default PBanks:        ( "MX-52" )' - what makes it impossible to change in FRED, because, when selected, this banks becomes primary and can hold only cannons. This can be fixed by changing this banks to '$Default SBanks'. Again, it won't change much, but would be useful for FREDers :)
Title: Re: Colossus model sugestion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on October 14, 2008, 07:19:48 am
Genius :yes:

Both good points, but the axis one iirc is related to the mission before last where the colly dies /me salutes
Or something :nervous:
Title: Re: Colossus model sugestion
Post by: Vasudan Admiral on October 14, 2008, 07:24:19 am
Unfortunately we can't change either of those things, as doing so would break backwards compatability with the retail campaign - as much as I would like to fix the former one. Mods can do that if they need to and I know it *shouldn't* affect anything, but you'd be surprised by the kinds of changes that can break or unbalance retail. ;)

The new Aten I built for example managed to utterly devastate FS' particle rendering system just by being present in a mission. :D
Title: Re: Colossus model sugestion
Post by: psyhotik on October 14, 2008, 07:35:00 am
Hmm... That's a point... So maybe a standalone model that campaing creators could download, use and attach to their VPs, so it wouldn't cripple retail campaign? (May not be worth of trouble; I don't know how much work is needed to fix this things.).
Title: Re: Colossus model sugestion
Post by: Galemp on October 14, 2008, 08:42:02 am
There is a reason for this. See the Mantis note on it. (http://scp.indiegames.us/mantis/view.php?id=1792)

The missile launcher thing though is obviously a bug.
Title: Re: Colossus model sugestion
Post by: Vasudan Admiral on October 14, 2008, 09:06:29 am
The missile launcher thing though is obviously a bug.
Oh right - sorry I didn't quite read that one right. Yeah that sort of thing we can fix. ;)
Title: Re: Colossus model sugestion
Post by: Stormkeeper on October 14, 2008, 10:23:49 am
So just correcting the table entry will fix the missile bank issue?
Title: Re: Colossus model sugestion
Post by: Commander Zane on October 16, 2008, 06:39:46 pm
The new Aten I built for example managed to utterly devastate FS' particle rendering system just by being present in a mission. :D
This I need to see. :lol:
Title: Re: Colossus model sugestion
Post by: Zacam on October 16, 2008, 08:30:20 pm
The full fix is the following as a *-shp.tbm file:
Code: [Select]
+Name: GTVA Colossus
+nocreate
$Subsystem: Turret38, 0.3, 2.0
$Default SBanks: ( "Prianha" )
$Subsystem: Turret39, 0.3, 2.0
$Default SBanks: ( "MX-52" )
$Subsystem: Turret42, 0.3, 2.0
$Default SBanks: ( "MX-52" )
$Subsystem: Turret44, 0.3, 2.0
$Default SBanks: ( "MX-52" )
$Subsystem: Turret45, 0.3, 2.0
$Default SBanks: ( "MX-52" )
$Subsystem: Turret46, 0.3, 2.0
$Default SBanks: ( "MX-52" )
$Subsystem: Turret47, 0.3, 2.0
$Default SBanks: ( "Piranha" )
$Subsystem: Turret48, 0.3, 2.0
$Default SBanks: ( "MX-52" )
$Subsystem: Turret49, 0.3, 2.0
$Default SBanks: ( "MX-52" )
$Subsystem: Turret50, 0.3, 2.0
$Default SBanks: ( "MX-52" )

It has been tested and works, not surprisingly.

This fix will be in the 3.6.10.
Title: Re: Colossus model sugestion
Post by: Commander Zane on October 16, 2008, 10:42:21 pm
What about news of the high-poly Colossus being downgraded to where it could be usable ingame?
Title: Re: Colossus model sugestion
Post by: blowfish on October 16, 2008, 10:59:18 pm
The full fix is the following as a *-shp.tbm file:
Code: [Select]
+Name: GTVA Colossus
+nocreate
$Subsystem: Turret38, 0.3, 2.0
$Default PBanks: ( "Prianha" )
$Subsystem: Turret39, 0.3, 2.0
$Default PBanks: ( "MX-52" )
$Subsystem: Turret42, 0.3, 2.0
$Default PBanks: ( "MX-52" )
$Subsystem: Turret44, 0.3, 2.0
$Default PBanks: ( "MX-52" )
$Subsystem: Turret45, 0.3, 2.0
$Default PBanks: ( "MX-52" )
$Subsystem: Turret46, 0.3, 2.0
$Default PBanks: ( "MX-52" )
$Subsystem: Turret47, 0.3, 2.0
$Default PBanks: ( "Piranha" )
$Subsystem: Turret48, 0.3, 2.0
$Default PBanks: ( "MX-52" )
$Subsystem: Turret49, 0.3, 2.0
$Default PBanks: ( "MX-52" )
$Subsystem: Turret50, 0.3, 2.0
$Default PBanks: ( "MX-52" )

It has been tested and works, not surprisingly.

This fix will be in the 3.6.10.

Eh ... that still says Pbanks :wtf:
Title: Re: Colossus model sugestion
Post by: Zacam on October 16, 2008, 11:34:11 pm
HAH! So that does. But you get the idea, neh?
Title: Re: Colossus model sugestion
Post by: Droid803 on October 16, 2008, 11:36:04 pm
well, just change all those P's to S'es when making that TBM.
Title: Re: Colossus model sugestion
Post by: Zacam on October 17, 2008, 12:56:49 am
Well, it may not actually be that easy. Damn infernal logic.
More in this space in a bit.
Title: Re: Colossus model sugestion
Post by: TrashMan on October 17, 2008, 05:26:42 am
Unfortunately we can't change either of those things, as doing so would break backwards compatability with the retail campaign - as much as I would like to fix the former one. Mods can do that if they need to and I know it *shouldn't* affect anything, but you'd be surprised by the kinds of changes that can break or unbalance retail. ;)


So? Ship a fixed mission together with the Collie. Crysis averted. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Colossus model sugestion
Post by: Stormkeeper on October 17, 2008, 05:28:26 am
IMO, mebe you should just release a fixed Coli, and table file, as a seperate download. Then the people can use as and when they wish.
Title: Re: Colossus model sugestion
Post by: psyhotik on October 17, 2008, 07:04:47 am
Or make a separate tbl entry (add another ship) for fixed Colossus, using fixed model. Retail campaign will use old Colossus and mission creators could use fixed version.
Title: Re: Colossus model sugestion
Post by: Zacam on October 17, 2008, 09:59:32 am
Or make a separate tbl entry (add another ship) for fixed Colossus, using fixed model. Retail campaign will use old Colossus and mission creators could use fixed version.

A good idea, except it then reduces the available # of ship slots-. Remember, we still have a ship limit until at least 3.7. Not to worry though, a viable solution is being in the works on this.
Title: Re: Colossus model sugestion
Post by: Vasudan Admiral on October 17, 2008, 06:49:45 pm
So? Ship a fixed mission together with the Collie. Crysis averted. :rolleyes:
It's finding the errors that's the tough part. :p

Ships getting destroyed faster than usual because a slightly different beam arrangement on one ship means more guns point at another, new debris chunks behaving differently from the way the original ones did - hitting and doing massive damage to other ships where they shouldn't, different capship radii or bounding boxes meaning that they collide with other capships where they shouldn't, bug fixes like repaired shields making certain ships tougher to kill, or correcting docking paths so they look right for most ships breaking docking for others (as has apparently happened with the new Iceni).

Moving the model centre so the colossus rotates around the middle would mean updating every mission with the colossus in it so that the thing didn't have an extra half-length to travel to reach it's waypoints and was in the right beam cannon sights when it should be. Then of course the big dramatic explosion of the colossus that Galemp describes in a bug report wouldn't occur.

I just don't see this as anywhere near a big enough problem to warrent that sorta fixing effort. As I said, if mods need it they can do it themselves. :p
Title: Re: Colossus model sugestion
Post by: Flipside on October 17, 2008, 07:14:17 pm
As VA says, changes like that can snowball throughout the entire campaign. The only real solution is to have two Colossi (sp?) which are identical apart from their rotation point (which is a big drag on resources) or to simply supply the required Colossus with the campaign if needed.

Though, from a purely personal perspective, I think the Colossus was a one-off, I don't see the GTVA building another one, but then, if the campaign is well written, no-one would care ;)
Title: Re: Colossus model sugestion
Post by: Mongoose on October 17, 2008, 08:30:16 pm
Besides all that, if we ditch the wonky rotation point, all of the newbies are going to be completely lost when we start talking about Colossus baseball.  And we wouldn't want that, would we?
Title: Re: Colossus model sugestion
Post by: Snail on October 18, 2008, 02:17:45 am
Though, from a purely personal perspective, I think the Colossus was a one-off, I don't see the GTVA building another one, but then, if the campaign is well written, no-one would care ;)
Well there could be campaigns featuring the same Colossus, such as one on the NTF side or som'n.
Title: Re: Colossus model sugestion
Post by: Turnsky on October 20, 2008, 06:57:17 pm
personally i'd like to see something remotely HTL for the ship, it's not a very pretty ship to begin with, and truth be told it doesn't really show the vasudan influence in its design much either.. i think the hardest part is trying to keep the 'design ethic' intact, all the while making it look more than the proverbial squirtgun it appears to be.  :p
Title: Re: Colossus model sugestion
Post by: Droid803 on October 20, 2008, 07:01:17 pm
personally i'd like to see something remotely HTL for the ship, it's not a very pretty ship to begin with, and truth be told it doesn't really show the vasudan influence in its design much either.. i think the hardest part is trying to keep the 'design ethic' intact, all the while making it look more than the proverbial squirtgun it appears to be.  :p

http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,53385.0.html
Title: Re: Colossus model sugestion
Post by: Turnsky on October 20, 2008, 07:06:06 pm
good lord, i've been gone for far too long..
Title: Re: Colossus model sugestion
Post by: Droid803 on October 20, 2008, 07:08:05 pm
Well, I don't know what became of that...I DO hope that it is still alive, and that it will be the upcoming MVPs as a surprise.
Title: Re: Colossus model sugestion
Post by: Vasudan Admiral on October 20, 2008, 09:37:38 pm
No sorry. :p

There are a few new surprises, but no Colossal ones. The massive amount of time and work involved in getting that model completely working in game from it's current state puts it well out of the running for the next MVP set.
Title: Re: Colossus model sugestion
Post by: Galemp on October 21, 2008, 12:42:44 am
I've actually started cleaning up some of the vertices on the head. It looks like it made heavy use of booleans, and as experienced modelers know it makes an absolute nightmare of the seams. I forsee great numbers of collision errors in our future.
Title: Re: Colossus model sugestion
Post by: Turnsky on October 21, 2008, 01:02:10 am
I've actually started cleaning up some of the vertices on the head. It looks like it made heavy use of booleans, and as experienced modelers know it makes an absolute nightmare of the seams. I forsee great numbers of collision errors in our future.

i foresee that once it is game ready, the results will be EPIC
Title: Re: Colossus model sugestion
Post by: Stormkeeper on October 21, 2008, 01:25:28 am
i foresee that once it is game ready, the results will be EPIC
I foresee that when paired with the hairy, muscled Sathanas, people will fail Bearbaiting and High Noon in droves
Title: Re: Colossus model sugestion
Post by: Commander Zane on October 21, 2008, 04:11:45 am
i foresee that once it is game ready, the results will be EPIC
I foresee that when paired with the hairy, muscled Sathanas, people will fail Bearbaiting and High Noon in droves
All I have to say is :lol:.
Title: Re: Colossus model sugestion
Post by: Col. Fishguts on October 21, 2008, 07:31:48 am
I've actually started cleaning up some of the vertices on the head. It looks like it made heavy use of booleans, and as experienced modelers know it makes an absolute nightmare of the seams. I forsee great numbers of collision errors in our future.

You have my heartfelt sympathy. I'm just glad that at least you have the model, so it won't be lost in the depths of the forum or on the HDD of somebody who disappears like KARMA's nice WIP version of the Colossus.
Title: Re: Colossus model sugestion
Post by: chief1983 on October 21, 2008, 01:18:41 pm
Lots of people probably have the model.  I have the model.  My mom has the model (I happened to d/l it at her computer at one point too).

edited for grammar
Title: Re: Colossus model sugestion
Post by: Stormkeeper on October 21, 2008, 10:38:08 pm
My mom has the model
:lol:
Title: Re: Colossus model sugestion
Post by: Turnsky on October 23, 2008, 01:25:02 am
i foresee that once it is game ready, the results will be EPIC
I foresee that when paired with the hairy, muscled Sathanas, people will fail Bearbaiting and High Noon in droves

oho?.. got a shot of el hirsute Sathanas?
Title: Re: Colossus model sugestion
Post by: Vasudan Admiral on October 23, 2008, 04:57:36 am
There are a couple in this thread from this post onwards (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,56733.msg1148279.html#msg1148279).

Also, good to see you around again Turnsky. :D
Title: Re: Colossus model sugestion
Post by: Commander Zane on October 23, 2008, 05:47:54 am
I FREAKING WANT THOSE!!!