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Community Projects => The FreeSpace Upgrade Project => Topic started by: DaBrain on October 21, 2008, 06:26:29 am

Title: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: DaBrain on October 21, 2008, 06:26:29 am
We hope we will be able to offer you an easy way to switch between the shockwave versions, but we need to decide on a standard shockwave that will be in the VPs.

Which one would you like to be the default shockwave?
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Wanderer on October 21, 2008, 07:57:01 am
I would prefer to have a default 2D shockwave.. Though if the 3D shockwave can be improved then i probably wouldn't mind in which shockwave we would have as a default shockwave.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: DaBrain on October 21, 2008, 08:02:49 am
Well, I'd rather have the 3d one as default for two reasons:

1. Even though some people like the 2d one better, I always had the feeling that more people use the 3d shockwave.

2. The low-end 3d shockwave saves quite a bit memory even compared to the standard FS2 ANI shockwave, beause instead of an animated texture with frames, the model is animated and it has only one texture.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Rodo on October 21, 2008, 09:12:56 am
well im not an expert on the subject, but I've always used the 3d one, and If I compare it to the vid's where I saw the original from freespace I would still choose the 3d over the 2d.

Rot
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: shiv on October 21, 2008, 09:23:10 am
I prefer the 2d one.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Galemp on October 21, 2008, 09:48:39 am
I would want the 3D shockwave only if we can stop missile shockwaves from defaulting to the X-Y plane. It looks really goofy when every bomb and EMP missile has its shockwave perfectly level with the rest. Ideally they would be aligned with the missile's vector.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: JGZinv on October 21, 2008, 12:00:48 pm
I voted for 3D simply because I believe 3D looks better in the long run, we need to be expanding
more into 3D usage... getting people accustomed to using 3D and improving what we can say about FS2.
With the 3D as default - perhaps we will see more modding done to it and expand it's potential...

and I second DaBrain's #2 reason as good.

 
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Zacam on October 21, 2008, 01:05:26 pm
I could vote for 3D if we had a more optimized one. 150+ animation frames is a ouch excessive option in my opinion and should be offered as a seperate advanced upgrade.

The 2d one is alright, but it does have some limitations, especially regarding the larger explosions. It looks sweet as hell (and I am not talking retail here) but it displays in such a way that, if I wasn't looking at my FPS counter, I'd swear it was bringing my system to a crawl.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: chief1983 on October 21, 2008, 01:20:53 pm
More people may use the 3D shockwave, but I bet the 2d shockwave people are more adamant in their desire to use the 2d shockwave.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Ziame on October 21, 2008, 02:10:10 pm
Well I always was like "WOOOOW" when I saw the 2d shockwave, then it starts to "lag" and I go "Owww, crap".

If it looks really good it doesn't matter what kind it is, ay?
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Mongoose on October 21, 2008, 02:24:45 pm
The current 3D shockwaves are running more smoothly for me than they ever have before, so I vote for sticking with what works.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Droid803 on October 21, 2008, 05:57:35 pm
I'd go for 3d as standard...but I still want some way to get the 2d ones :P
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: tinfoil on October 21, 2008, 06:29:35 pm
I want ones with choose-able colours :D
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: phreak on October 21, 2008, 11:29:25 pm
pictures?
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Droid803 on October 21, 2008, 11:34:42 pm
(http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/7545/fs2openoldkd0.jpg)
(http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/3118/screen25093jcqb8.jpg)

Those are the 2D ones. I believe they come in those two flavours.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Zacam on October 21, 2008, 11:54:51 pm
No, actually, those would be the 3D ones. I hope you are not thinking 3d as in a sphere, but as in animated textures to a shockwave disc model. And from the looks of it, an older one.

2D Shockwaves will always face the plane towards the viewer angle. Not at an angle to it.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Droid803 on October 21, 2008, 11:56:17 pm
heh? Then why do the current 3D ones look so...lame compared to these?
Perfect circle = boring.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Herra Tohtori on October 22, 2008, 12:08:31 am
heh? Then why do the current 3D ones look so...lame compared to these?
Perfect circle = boring.


What...? :wtf:

The difference between 2D and 3D shockwaves is that 2D shockwave is simply a texture that is rendered on a plane that is always facing towards the viewpoint, whereas 3D shockwaves use a model (shockwave.pof) and the texture is rendered on the model's surface.

The best case scenario is that the 3D model is facing the viewpoint. In this case, the 3D shockwave has some qualitative edge over the 2D shockwave. The problem is that in the worst case scenario the 3D model is sideways to the viewpoint, which makes it look slightly silly, while the 2D shockwave looks the same from all directions.


Realistically (lol@context) shockwave in space would be a sphere, which means it would looks like a circle from all directions. I voted 2D because of two reasons:

1. I personally like the effect better
2. It's at the moment easier to change from 2D to 3D than from 3D to 2D. If the model file is in the VP's by default, it would need to be removed by those who want to use 2D shockwaves.

If a way to activate 3D shockwaves were present in launcher, the issue would be largely nonexistant.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: DaBrain on October 22, 2008, 05:32:33 am
heh? Then why do the current 3D ones look so...lame compared to these?
Perfect circle = boring.

Because with those two 3d shockwaves I didn't get the animation right, the current 3d effect has a way better animation.
The model is still the same though.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: shiv on October 22, 2008, 08:06:24 am
Dabrain, give us that eye of the sauron shockwave, please! It was some time ago uploaded but now it apperas to be offline :(
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: ShadowGorrath on October 22, 2008, 11:22:51 am
(http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/7545/fs2openoldkd0.jpg)
(http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/3118/screen25093jcqb8.jpg)

Those are the 2D ones. I believe they come in those two flavours.

Those are 3D

And I want those shockwaves!
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Snail on October 22, 2008, 11:36:40 am
I don't believe they exist anymore.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Flaser on October 22, 2008, 11:47:44 am
Since the current low-level 3D shockwave only uses a geometry transformation and no animated frames it's more efficient than the 2D one...

...but wouldn't it be better to transform the 2D shockwave into a 3D one, and instead swapping Media files in and out, the launcher should set whether the explosion always faces the camera?
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: ShadowGorrath on October 22, 2008, 12:03:51 pm
I don't believe they exist anymore.

No. NO! You're lying! You just want me to feel bad!  :(
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Galemp on October 22, 2008, 12:40:30 pm
2. It's at the moment easier to change from 2D to 3D than from 3D to 2D. If the model file is in the VP's by default, it would need to be removed by those who want to use 2D shockwaves.

If a way to activate 3D shockwaves were present in launcher, the issue would be largely nonexistant.

This is probably the best argument for 2D. What looks better is subjective; what is not subjective is how easy it is to change your preference. If we're talking about the defaults here, then it ought to be 2D since it can be replaced easily with a 3D shockwave effects VP.

I also second the motion to have the 3D shockwave as a launcher flag.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: chief1983 on October 22, 2008, 02:22:30 pm
I don't know about a flag, then it cannot be controlled by a mod that wants to force it.  Unless, the flag only functions if both options are present, 3d or 2d.  Otherwise it would have to use whatever is available.  Then a mod could only provide one possibility and the flag would be ignored.  And, if those are the 3d shockwaves, I like them.  I think I hated what I thought were 3d shockwaves, but were really just multiple shockwaves.  I didn't like that effect.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Rodo on October 22, 2008, 04:12:25 pm
wait, I thought mine were 3d shockwaves, but those on the pictures look a little more complex, the one's i've got are more like just one ring.

We could use some images from the both of the options, those are 3d so.. how do the 2d look like?
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Excalibur on October 22, 2008, 05:24:59 pm
As long as the 2D one is better than retail...and I really need to upgrade my SCP...but also my computer.

Perhaps we could make a "insert code langauge here" to stop shockwaves from being generated at more than 80 degrees to the player's viewpoint? So you don't get an expanding flat line.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: FreeSpaceFreak on October 23, 2008, 10:01:38 am
Perhaps we could make a "insert code langauge here" to stop shockwaves from being generated at more than 80 degrees to the player's viewpoint? So you don't get an expanding flat line.
Good idea :yes: :yes:
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: aRaven on October 23, 2008, 10:08:39 am
I don't believe they exist anymore.

No. NO! You're lying! You just want me to feel bad!  :(

I have the blue ones on my laptop...but I don't feel like starting it  right now... when I do I let you know :P
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: DaBrain on October 23, 2008, 10:31:25 am
I don't believe they exist anymore.

No. NO! You're lying! You just want me to feel bad!  :(

I will create a new one at some point... which also fixes the 90° problem.
If there is a material system at that point, and I find sombody to write a simple shockwave shader, it will be very efficent. If not, it will use frames, like the current one.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: starfox on October 24, 2008, 02:25:01 am
Option to switch between 2d and 3-d Shockwaves would be great, but, yeaaa, I'd prefer 3-d ones..... :yes:
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: LegionofIron on October 24, 2008, 06:46:09 pm
What about a homeworld 2 style enveloping "bubble" shockwave?

I think that would look freaking AWESOME!   ;7
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: tinfoil on October 24, 2008, 07:03:11 pm
It would indeed

By the way, welcome to HLP
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Droid803 on October 24, 2008, 07:27:42 pm
:welcomesilver:

I just want the shockwaves in the shots I linked...
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Romanmolf on October 27, 2008, 10:12:07 am
(http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/7545/fs2openoldkd0.jpg)
(http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/3118/screen25093jcqb8.jpg)

Those are the 2D ones. I believe they come in those two flavours.

Hey, I found these!


I have the blue ones on my laptop...but I don't feel like starting it  right now... when I do I let you know :P

PLEASE! GIVE THEM FAST! I CAN'T WAIT ANYMORE!
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: pecenipicek on October 27, 2008, 10:51:47 am
What about a homeworld 2 style enveloping "bubble" shockwave?

I think that would look freaking AWESOME!   ;7
they already exist, however they need to be heavily refined to be workable.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: tinfoil on October 27, 2008, 12:33:00 pm
Screenshot?
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: pecenipicek on October 27, 2008, 03:04:07 pm
find it yourself. its somewhere in the scripting board, iirc.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: TrashMan on October 27, 2008, 04:10:46 pm
I don't know about a flag, then it cannot be controlled by a mod that wants to force it. 

No mod should force it. It's just daft.

2D shockwaves look more real. They look better and are easier on the machine. I vote for 2D.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: chief1983 on October 27, 2008, 05:23:39 pm
I just mean command line options are a bad way of controlling things.  In the general sense, mods typically have a hard time making sure that certain options are on when they need to be, even if it doesn't break retail having them on or off.  If a mod wants to include them, or use a table file to require them, that should be up to the mod, not a command line option.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Herra Tohtori on October 27, 2008, 06:53:29 pm
2D shockwaves look more real. They look better and are easier on the machine. I vote for 2D.


In fact, the simple version of 3D shockwave is less stressful on the hardware since the animation is simply the expansion of the model rather than a series of memory hogging frames. It's more memory efficient than the retail shockwaves even. However, I agree to the sentiment that at the moment, 2D shockwave looks more real...

Ideally, a shockwave would be a roughly spherical, expanding model with a shader that makes it look volumetric rather than limited to the mesh surface. Fresnel and blur or something.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: JGZinv on October 27, 2008, 07:43:20 pm
Would this then not be an issue of people haven't made decent enough graphics
to go with the 3D version... in order to match or be better than the 2D.

Tis not a fault of the system itself.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: pecenipicek on October 27, 2008, 08:59:57 pm
the difference between the two is that the 2D shockwaves look like expanding waves of sorts.

3D ones are orange and lack that "fine" wave effect of the 2D ones + the minor detail known as "They dont care which way your ship is facing.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: ShadowGorrath on October 28, 2008, 07:05:40 am
Ok, what about having a good looking 2D shockwave as default in the mediavps, but have the 3D one an optional download?
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: pecenipicek on October 28, 2008, 07:18:38 am
i dont think that there exists a good looking 2D shockwave nowadays... -.-
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Romanmolf on October 28, 2008, 07:21:56 am
Wait...
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: ShadowGorrath on October 28, 2008, 07:22:25 am
Well, those who want a 2D shockwave can make one. But as I said- 3D as an optional download.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Zacam on October 28, 2008, 10:53:35 am
i dont think that there exists a good looking 2D shockwave nowadays... -.-

Actually, there does. It stands to look a little better (Some DX Compression issues ironed out of the image) but there is one.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Romanmolf on October 29, 2008, 09:10:48 am
Where?
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: TrashMan on October 29, 2008, 12:15:01 pm
In fact, the simple version of 3D shockwave is less stressful on the hardware since the animation is simply the expansion of the model rather than a series of memory hogging frames. It's more memory efficient than the retail shockwaves even. However, I agree to the sentiment that at the moment, 2D shockwave looks more real...

Ideally, a shockwave would be a roughly spherical, expanding model with a shader that makes it look volumetric rather than limited to the mesh surface. Fresnel and blur or something.

So?
How hard would it be to simply have the 3D shockwave on a 90° angle to the viewer, instead of on random planes?
It would look like a 2D shockwave, but performance would be improved.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: chief1983 on October 29, 2008, 12:26:37 pm
What about when you have more than one viewer?
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: JGZinv on October 29, 2008, 01:04:44 pm
3D model with only part of the the model textured to reflect the shape of a 2D wave?
The rest would be textured with (what was it pure black or green?) so it would be invisible?

Just tossing an idea out.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Mobius on October 29, 2008, 01:43:43 pm
Dammit, 2D shockwaves are more realistic and don't cause massive slowdowns! Why would people prefer 3D ones?!? :mad:
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Romanmolf on October 29, 2008, 01:46:22 pm
So?
How hard would it be to simply have the 3D shockwave on a 90° angle to the viewer, instead of on random planes?
It would look like a 2D shockwave, but performance would be improved.

Do whatever you want, the only thing I want is GOOD performance.

Oh, and Mobius, I voted 2D and I don't undersand why others prefer the 3D either
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Mobius on October 29, 2008, 01:48:51 pm
I propose a color change, too. Red/orange shockwaves are more appropriate. Why would they be blue? :wtf:
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Jeff Vader on October 29, 2008, 01:50:00 pm
I has a dejavu.

Because they're pretty.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Mobius on October 29, 2008, 01:53:44 pm
Prettier than red ones? :rolleyes:

A ship explodes. You see random blue plates coming from it. Is it pretty to you?
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Jeff Vader on October 29, 2008, 02:02:53 pm
 :rolleyes: :doubt: :rolleyes: :doubt: :rolleyes:

The purpose of the FreeSpace Upgrade Project is to make FSO pretty. They put pretty stuff in the MediaVPs. If blue shockwaves are pretty, they're included in the MediaVPs, and in the same manner if blue shockwaves aren't pretty, they're not included in the MediaVPs.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Mobius on October 29, 2008, 02:10:23 pm
It's not like everyone agrees on using blue 3D shockwaves, you know. They're not like any other upgrade...someone might have a different opinion.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Topgun on October 29, 2008, 02:14:13 pm
vanilla has blue shockwaves, that's why. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Mobius on October 29, 2008, 02:16:56 pm
Vanilla has a grey 2D shockwave effect which has disappeared.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Topgun on October 29, 2008, 02:22:44 pm
IT IS NOT GREY.
it's cyan (duh!) :p
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: TrashMan on October 29, 2008, 02:24:04 pm
What about when you have more than one viewer?

Isn't it rendered for each viewer separately?
On my PC the shockwave will face me, on Bob's it will face Bob.
Simple.

Case, you know, the shockwave is spherical and you'll always only see it's edges. That's why the old 2D looks far better than this 3D, random-plane stuff.
It's not the tech behind it, it's the facing.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Romanmolf on October 29, 2008, 02:27:20 pm
Mobius just found the  (http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/7545/fs2openoldkd0.jpg) (http://img337.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fs2openoldkd0.jpg)   and he's posting them to the ''can't find old vps'' thread now...
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Mobius on October 29, 2008, 02:32:08 pm
IT IS NOT GREY.
it's cyan (duh!) :p

Oh...I didn't remember the exact color.

Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: pecenipicek on October 29, 2008, 02:52:35 pm
and that is the only reason the bluish ones look better. they're closer to retail.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Mobius on October 29, 2008, 02:54:46 pm
The color may be ok, but what about the fact that they're 3D plates?
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Topgun on October 29, 2008, 02:58:40 pm
I think the plates look better than the splash.
but IMO.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Mongoose on October 29, 2008, 03:11:58 pm
As do I.  At least they give the impression of a volumetric object, even if you sometimes see them at odd angles.  The old retail versions stuck out like a sore thumb as being nothing more than the equivalent of sprites.

I'm also not sure where the performance complaints are coming from; I have what by all accounts is a rather ancient video card, yet the current 3D shockwaves in the 3.6.10 beta VPs barely give me any slowdown at all.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Mobius on October 29, 2008, 03:22:28 pm
It's still an "IMO"...
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: ShadowGorrath on October 29, 2008, 03:23:54 pm
Ugh... The original, retail 2D shockwave was blue!
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Jeff Vader on October 29, 2008, 03:25:26 pm
mobius]It's still an "IMO"...[/mobius]
So is yours. If you want results, start a poll: red splash or blue plate?
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: chief1983 on October 29, 2008, 03:55:43 pm
It was already explained that when done right, the 3d shockwave should perform better than the 2d shockwave.

Trashman, I don't know how shockwave models are handled with multiple viewers.  Either they're synced so everyone sees the model in the same place or they're not.  No idea.  I would figure since they are models that they would sync though, but I don't know much about that code.

Just go with whatever is the most flexible for all users.  We're not going to make everyone happy with the default, so whatever allows the most people to make themselves happy the easiest is what I want.  From what I heard, it's easier to start with the 2d and add in the 3d later than the other way around.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: TrashMan on October 29, 2008, 05:07:22 pm
As do I.  At least they give the impression of a volumetric object, even if you sometimes see them at odd angles.  The old retail versions stuck out like a sore thumb as being nothing more than the equivalent of sprites.

It gives a FALSE impression. That's the point. A real shockwave would never look like that.

Gods, people have some false expectations or reality and eventually become convinced "it's how it's supposed to be".
Reminds me of discussions with a guy who claimed two-haders are supposed to be heavy and that the light ones are cheap knock-offs, when in reality it's the opposite.


Quote
Trashman, I don't know how shockwave models are handled with multiple viewers.  Either they're synced so everyone sees the model in the same place or they're not.  No idea.  I would figure since they are models that they would sync though, but I don't know much about that code.

I'd guess it's handeled similar to any sprite or plane something.
AMT all the shockwaves are angled randomly. One would have to change that to remove the randomness and depend on player view.

Each computer does the rendering of the shockwave by itself.
The 3D model/2D plane doesn't have no impact on gameplay, since the radius in the tables is used for damage calculations and not the model itself.
Ergo, it doesn't matter if each PC renders the shockwave under a different angle relative to another viewer.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Mongoose on October 29, 2008, 05:20:39 pm
It gives a FALSE impression. That's the point. A real shockwave would never look like that.
I don't really give a damn how a "real" shockwave would look (as if any shockwave like this would ever exist to begin with); I just want what looks cool.  And for my money, the 3D version looks better than the 2D equivalent.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Polpolion on October 29, 2008, 06:48:33 pm
Is it practical to have one set up to run and an option to turn the other one on at all? (Is it even possible?)

Because IMHO the 2d ones look better because you never see the sides of them, but I also don't really want the people who think otherwise to be disappointed.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Fenrir on October 29, 2008, 07:20:04 pm
It gives a FALSE impression. That's the point. A real shockwave would never look like that.
I don't really give a damn how a "real" shockwave would look (as if any shockwave like this would ever exist to begin with); I just want what looks cool.  And for my money, the 3D version looks better than the 2D equivalent.

Exactly. Something exploding in a vacuum in reality wouldn't have any medium for a shockwave aside from particles of the ship itself. And my money's on the 3D ones. Just make them so they don't come out at weird angles.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Droid803 on October 29, 2008, 07:39:52 pm
Hmmm...my vote will now be:
3D ONLY if its the ones in those screenshots (not the single-ring circular one we have now).
Otherwise 2D.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Herra Tohtori on October 29, 2008, 07:47:12 pm
This is how the 2D shockwaves look like. Also, Wanderer's flashy deaths script, but that's unrelated to shockwaves.

~55MB XVid-avi (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?mmqjmzly2ua)
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Droid803 on October 29, 2008, 07:51:08 pm
Hey those actually resemble the ones in the above screenshot :D
My vote still stands.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Flaser on October 29, 2008, 08:31:55 pm
As do I.  At least they give the impression of a volumetric object, even if you sometimes see them at odd angles.  The old retail versions stuck out like a sore thumb as being nothing more than the equivalent of sprites.

It gives a FALSE impression. That's the point. A real shockwave would never look like that.

Gods, people have some false expectations or reality and eventually become convinced "it's how it's supposed to be".
Reminds me of discussions with a guy who claimed two-haders are supposed to be heavy and that the light ones are cheap knock-offs, when in reality it's the opposite.


Quote
Trashman, I don't know how shockwave models are handled with multiple viewers.  Either they're synced so everyone sees the model in the same place or they're not.  No idea.  I would figure since they are models that they would sync though, but I don't know much about that code.

I'd guess it's handeled similar to any sprite or plane something.
AMT all the shockwaves are angled randomly. One would have to change that to remove the randomness and depend on player view.

Each computer does the rendering of the shockwave by itself.
The 3D model/2D plane doesn't have no impact on gameplay, since the radius in the tables is used for damage calculations and not the model itself.
Ergo, it doesn't matter if each PC renders the shockwave under a different angle relative to another viewer.

Remember!

(http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/uncyclopedia/images/b/be/God_kills_catgirl.gif)
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Topgun on October 29, 2008, 09:02:47 pm
those poor little cat girls....
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Romanmolf on October 30, 2008, 07:44:05 am
(http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/7545/fs2openoldkd0.jpg) (http://img337.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fs2openoldkd0.jpg)

That's what we want, don't we?

ANYBODY HAVE IT?

It doesn't matter if it's realistic or not. It's good and we want it.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Herra Tohtori on October 30, 2008, 08:03:53 am
[image]

That's what we want, don't we?

ANYBODY HAVE IT?

It doesn't matter if it's realistic or not. It's good and we want it.

(http://bp0.blogger.com/_Up1WhLD7NOM/R91mL2DiqnI/AAAAAAAAAiw/eC-vhOqHGS4/s400/gollum_rotk_3.jpg?)

"We wantsss it, Precioussss! Give it to usss!"

Seriously, if you want a ring of fire (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRlj5vjp3Ko&fmt=18)* you shall have it, eventually. We have no intention of letting the 3D shockwaves out of support; what we're contemplating is which version to put on as the default version.

And, like I said, it would be massively more convenient to have the upgraded 2D shockwaves on the default mediaVP's, and offer the 3D shockwaves as an option. For the same reason you want to be careful with salt, since it's easy to increase in food but really hard to extract once you have too much of it.

/me is aware that the Ring coveted by Gollum is the One Ring rather than Narya, the Red Ring, the Ring of Fire wielded by Olórin...
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: pecenipicek on October 30, 2008, 08:31:25 am
i'd actually prefer the upgraded original 2D shockwave, and if it has been done, anyone have it?
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Romanmolf on October 30, 2008, 08:40:37 am
That's what I said
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Herra Tohtori on October 30, 2008, 08:42:53 am
That's what I said

NO U

(http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/7545/fs2openoldkd0.jpg)


That's the 3D shockwave.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Romanmolf on October 30, 2008, 08:46:07 am
I am about to post this for the 1,000,000,000,000,000,000th time...








Do we have that? If yes, give lnk. If not, get it!
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: pecenipicek on October 30, 2008, 08:50:22 am
dude, fof. i am looking for the high-res 2D shockwave, not 3D shockwave. from that pic that you posted and "said" you want the cyan/blue 3D shockwave. learn to read, i beg you.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: General Battuta on October 30, 2008, 09:15:28 am
If you could make the 2D shockwave default, but give an option for the high-end 3D ones, that'd be great. Launcher flag?
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Herra Tohtori on October 30, 2008, 09:25:28 am
I am about to post this for the 1,000,000,000,000,000,000th time...
/me takes a look at Romanmolf's postcount
/me sincerely doubts Romanmolf's claims about that being his 10^18th post about the subject


Moving along...

IIRC, the 3D shockwave is in the 3.6.10 Beta MediaVP's. I don't remember right now whether it's a simple version or dual-layered version like that in the image seems to be...


Here's the 2D shockwave. (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?ing0neximzn) In order for it to work, there must be no shockwave.pof that the game can use. If there is, the game will use that, and the 2D shockwave will be overridden by the 3D version.

In other words, to use this in conjunction with Beta MediaVP's, you need to open up the whatever VP file the shockwave.pof happens to be in, and remove it from the file, and if you come crying for support when you manage to botch something up I'm going to re-tell you to take backup copies of any VP file you start dicking around with. If you do not know how to accomplish this, this is not perhaps the best crash course into VP file editing... :nervous:
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: chief1983 on October 30, 2008, 10:03:45 am
And because of that, that's why I say use 2d as default and have a separate 3d shockwave VP.  Easy enough to setup to use it instead, as opposed to the other way around.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Zacam on October 30, 2008, 10:15:51 am
I am about to post this for the 1,000,000,000,000,000,000th time...

<snip>

Do we have that? If yes, give lnk. If not, get it!

The link will be when 3.6.10 is final. Now seriously, do you even know the meaning of the word 'patience'?

And in general for everybody else:

AFAIK, the decision will be to provide a 2D shockwave in the VP's with the ability (for those who want/can handle) an optional, seperate, 3D Shockwave.

And as for when that will be released, it is no different than any thing else: When it is done. You can either have it done right, or you can have it right now, but you cannot have both. And I for one would much rather have less of a headache by releasing when it is done right.

The good news is, once a few more things get tested and ironed out and we polish up a few edges and make sure that we haven't broken any compatibility, we will be (unless there are any last second surprises) be releasing. However, I don't think anybody has a direct knowledge of exactly when that will be.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Mobius on October 30, 2008, 01:17:47 pm
Ok, since I seem to be greatly outnumbered, I want to say this:

Can we please have a 2D version of the shockwaves to be placed in mv_effects? The 3D one, which causes slowdowns, could be placed in mv_adveffects.

(I heard the VP's names are changed but I used the old ones to let you understand)
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: General Battuta on October 30, 2008, 01:31:56 pm
Zacam just said that would be done, didn't he?
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Mobius on October 30, 2008, 01:33:37 pm
In that case I support him... :)
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: chief1983 on October 30, 2008, 01:52:12 pm
Jeez Mobius, RTFT :)
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Zacam on October 30, 2008, 02:42:40 pm
Actually, the 3D ones (Yes, there are two of them) will be entirely seperate. Users will be able to choose a simplified 3D Shockwave or the more complex animated 3D Shockwave based on preference and/or system performance, while the 2D one will be in the Effects vp.

And to help minimize strain for systems, I aim to encourage that shockwave generating weapons have a way (even with a 3D shockwave present) to continue to use the 2D shockwave, since there can be a case where during a mission several of them can be going off in addition to ship explosions. If the weapons are still using the 2D on a smaller scale shock, this will keep the system speed up by not choking it up when they are all being rendered.

As for a per ship-type style shockwave, this is entirely do-able, but trying to impliment it now would induce a delay on the release to manufacture and test. And I only mention this because I'm pretty sure some one would inevitably ask.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: DaBrain on October 30, 2008, 07:05:16 pm
Zacam, the poll has been created after a discussion in IRC, to decide which shockwave should be the default shockwave included in the effects and advanced effects VPs. The other one will be optional.

From the results of the poll, it looks like most people want the 3d shockwave to be the default one. We shoud respect that.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Commander Zane on October 30, 2008, 08:14:29 pm
Okay, I can't tell anymore what's supposed to be what, the two shockwave types have been uploaded, but there's no screenshots of them unless the one that's been displayed about ten times already is supposed to be one of them, I'd like some comparison shots.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: pecenipicek on October 30, 2008, 08:53:27 pm
its the second time round that it has happened. for the sake of easier implementation however, i'd vote for the 2D as default and 3D as an additional vp. oh no, imagines the 5-ish to 20-ish megabytes more to download... as a separate VP. oh noez, teh humanity.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: chief1983 on October 30, 2008, 10:51:39 pm
The poll isn't clear about the fact that for people who want the 2d ones, they'll have to jump through hoops to get them if the 3d ones are the defaults.  Honestly is it that difficult to put the 3d shockwaves in a separate file?  I know you guys are trying to reduce file count and I commend that, but this really should be able to make everyone happy, shouldn't it?
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Zacam on October 30, 2008, 11:40:13 pm
DaBrain: Seriously, if people had VP files completed and ready to run from the first post of this thread so that they knew more of what they were selecting, then I could be down with the poll being the final decision. But there wasn't and I am not.

And as there have been people requesting 2D, it actually matters more to me if they happen to be a minority. Which is why, IMO, 3D should be a separate _OPTIONAL_ download that any one can use IF THEY CHOOSE, rather than being something that everybody is stuck with that will require a lot of work to replace in the event it is not what they want. So seriously, can we stop trying to whip each other about and make the sensible solution that can accommodate ANY preference with nothing more than the presence (or not) of a single small VP?
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: DaBrain on October 31, 2008, 04:27:00 am
Look, Zacam, we wanted to force as few users as possible to mess around with optional VPs. By using the shockwaves, less people want, we do the opposite.

You can not make a decision like that on your own, especially not now after we left the decision to the users.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Herra Tohtori on October 31, 2008, 05:12:08 am
That may well be, but the fact remains that if there's a shockwave.pof anywhere on the default VP's it will be IMPOSSIBLE to use 2D shockwaves with the default VP's.

That means that anyone wanting to use 2D shockwaves will be out of the support range because they will be forced to modify the default mediaVP's. Or, in other words, if we include the 3D shockwaves into the default set of  VP's, we effectively drop the 2D shockwave support altogether, leaving it to individual users to go through a relatively complicated procedure of opening the VP where the shockwave is (effects IIRC), remove the POF file, and overwrite the default mediaVP.

This is a fairly complicated procedure for anyone who doesn't already know how it's done, and it will effectively cause either or both of the following:

a. cause the emergence of an alternative VP set where there is no shockwave.pof, which will proceed to cause mix-ups in support topics
b. alienate everyone who prefers 2D shockwaves and can't edit the VP files themselves (and a lot of threads requesting help regarding rudimentary VP editing).


In terms of pros and cons...


3D Shockwaves in default VP:

+for those who can accept the 3D shockwaves, a minor advantage in amount of VP's to deal with
- for anyone else, a major disadvantage in the procedure of changing to 2D shockwaves

2D shockwaves in default VP's:

- for those who want the 3D shockwaves, a minor disadvantage in amount of VP's to deal with
+for anyone else, a major advantage of not having to EDIT any default, FSU-provided VP files.


Note that 3D shockwaves as default provide a minor advantage and major disadvantage, while the 2D shockwaves as default prived a major advantage and minor disadvantage.

Additionally, I would not necessarily hold the voting result of this poll as the highest authority, seeing how there's already been multiple mix-ups with people not effectively knowing which are supposed to be 2D and which 3D effect. As much as I adore democracy, people who are not familiar with the advantages and disadvantages of both options don't really have the pre-requisites of making an educated choice in this kind of issues. After all, 3D shockwave sounds much more advanced than 2D shockwave, so it should be an improvement, right? Except that it isn't, in many ways - the angles issue being the first and foremost, and the drastic change from retail effect style being another. I would even go as far as calling it a mod as opposed to an upgrade, but that's just me. I do not suggest dropping it from the VP's altogether, but it seems to me that using that as default will cause far greater problems than using 2D shockwaves as default.


My stance in this is the following: There are people who want 3D shockwaves (2/3rds based on this questionable poll) and there are people who want 2D shockwaves (1/3rd, a rather significant minority even based on this poll).If we drop either of those options from the supported solutions, we will alienate one group. Ergo, we should provide official support for both. This is only possible at the moment by using the 2D shockwave as the default option, and offering the 3D shockwave(s) as an option.

Another way is, of course, not to include any shockwave in the default VP's and offer both 2D and 3D shockwaves as a selective download, but that's even more complicated than just using the 2D as default, so I'd rather not see that happening.


Finally, it's very good to take simplicity of use into consideration, but sacrificing customizability for it is the wrong way to do it and will cause far greater problems in my opinion than having to answer a few support questions occasionally - and I don't think add-on shockwaves would be a problem with clear instructions. Definitely they wouldn't produce as much problems as that debackle with effect alpha channels fixed with those 710-VP's. :nervous:


...and, finally, a remainder that this conversation would not be in any way necessary if we had a command line option to enable 3D shockwaves, which would be the optimal solution for both devs and users - users could select either option based on their preference with much ease, while devs could spare themselves the trouble of maintaining support for more VP files.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Rodo on October 31, 2008, 05:37:35 am
Ill bump in the conversation dont kill me XD:

In order to get a more user-friendly vps one of both will have to be default, so far the 3d are winning so let the people have 3d, If by some reason anyone might want to have a 2d then a separated file should be uploaded for those players, then they can follow a very complete FAQ on how to install them, I know this might be annoying (I miself want to try the 2d also so I think I'll be facing this problem sooner or later) but unless a completely automated option is resolved, then 3d should stay as default.

Something else, from what I've seen most of players who have asked for 2d are well experienced on FS universe so I presume that following a complex FAQ would not represent an issue for them, apart from the extra work... but I think you already know that something in FS will have to be changed eventually.

Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: pecenipicek on October 31, 2008, 06:07:01 am
lets explain this simply for the new fellas.

The way the 3D Shockwaves are implemented is that they override the 2D and insert the shockwave.pof and related effects instead of the original 2D effect.

If the 3D shockwaves are inside a VP, its impossible to replace them any other way than by modifying the VP file containing it.
(it is something that i as a somewhat senior member of hlp and a long time modder dont feel comfortable doing...)

If the 2D were by default inside, the 3D one could be just added by another VP containing only data related to the 3D shockwave.

3D's are winning for the same reason as the first time round. People dont really know the exact difference, and back then nobody improved the original 2D shockwave so people went "Oooh, shiny!!!!11".


i'd be all for the 3D shockwave if it behaved much like the 2D effect, however it does not. so i am not.


if the FSU is so against modifying some retail based things, for example, not fixing the colossus pivot since it would "break" the mission when it blows up and it would require fixing of all missions where it appears. that just smells of lazyness, whereas when **** like this 3D shockwave gets through since it "adds to the atmosphere of things and doesnt break retail missions".

the 3D shockwave is one of the most... how to say... un-freespacey things that got in thanks to people going ooh shiny.

if the effect that the 3D shockwave made emulated the retail shockwave effect, there wouldnt be much problem. but alas, there is, since the 3D shockwave basically looks like a lazy, fake version of the retail effect. i've owned FS2 since it came out in 1999. and i fondly remember the retail effect. the 3D one screams hate at me.

and yet, i'm stuck with it since i dont feel confident enough to go into the VP's and rip it out.



(errrm, sorry if this posts sounds as a mish-mash, i just have a lot of stuff going around now so confusion ensues often inside me head)
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Vasudan Admiral on October 31, 2008, 06:56:09 am
if the FSU is so against modifying some retail based things, for example, not fixing the colossus pivot since it would "break" the mission when it blows up and it would require fixing of all missions where it appears. that just smells of lazyness
Let me just single this point out and remind you that this issue is trivial, and the fix and associated testing is not. The colossus barely even turns in the main campaign! Modifying it now would break or hamper every mission (retail campaign or not) that involves the squirt gun. Call that lazy if you will, but keep in mind that you're talking about a little team here that has put many months of work into this next release, created tons of new content besides the stuff that's already been seen and most importantly; tested and bugfixed the lot of it. It's certainly not my definition of 'lazy'. :p


As for the shockwave issue, I really don't see what the fuss is about - placing the 2d one in the effects VP and the 3d one as an optional add-on VP is simply the only way we can offer both options to players, so I don't see any reason to leave those who like 2d shockwaves better completely out in the cold to save those who like 3d shockwaves an extra one or two clicks and some download.

(Incidentally, my stance on the shockwave preference thing is that all of them except the retail animation look awesome in their own ways. I don't have a favourite.)
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Spicious on October 31, 2008, 07:05:07 am
Why is this poll even here?
The action already seems to have been decided.

I do like the "voters are too stupid" ploy though. Those are always fun.

Are there any pictures of the particular shockwaves that would be included?
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: james777 on October 31, 2008, 07:12:03 am
2d
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Vasudan Admiral on October 31, 2008, 07:21:22 am
Why is this poll even here?
The action already seems to have been decided.
AFAIK it was made before we realised that using 3d as default would permanently override the very ability to have 2d at all. ;)

As for screenies, HT is working on that right now.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Topgun on October 31, 2008, 07:32:41 am
what the coders should do is make the shockwave type on a per-ship/per-weapon basis. thay way those who wan't it in 3d just need to download 2 tbm's.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Wanderer on October 31, 2008, 07:54:36 am
Its already possible.. But thing is i dont know how well MP likes the players having different tables.. Probably claims one party or another to be using haxored tables
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Herra Tohtori on October 31, 2008, 08:30:40 am
Well, this took a bit of time... anyway, here are comparision shots and video clips of the different shockwave types.

3D Shockwave, best case scenario (two shots at different phases) [Video (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?jldytzoumow)]:

(http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/3149/3dshockwavebestcasescengq8.png)
(http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/39/3dshockwavebestcasescenwr7.png)


3D Shockwave, worst case scenario - you'll see this one often with bombs, either firing or chasing them [Video (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?mjndnjzlze3)]:

(http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/8968/3dshockwaveworstcasescehv2.png)

EDIT: Note that this picture and clip has two bombs exploding at the same time right next to each other, so if you wonder about the strange duality that's the cause. This is a common occurrence in FS2 though, since firing two missiles at the same time is rather popular bombing tactics...

2D shockwave, looks always relatively the same. The current effect has a bit too much compression artefacts for my delicate eyes, so preferably I would like the original files for this effect, but this one is not too bad either... [Video (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?nutujozaemf)]

(http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/9669/2dshockwavefs3.png)


EDIT: Forgot to say - the clips also show Wanderer's Flashy Deaths script in effect. Forgot to disable that, but at least you still see the shockwave types and their basic differences. The script might or might not be in the VP's, we'll see. :nervous:
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: General Battuta on October 31, 2008, 08:33:11 am
Oh, I am very glad the 2D shock is default. Let's stick with that, please!
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Romanmolf on October 31, 2008, 09:32:40 am
2D normal, 3D optional. I got it at last, didn't I?


Now, your 2D shockwave is fantastic. Congratulations! However, the 3D has higher quality. I was wondering if it could be ''converted'' to 2D. I suppose it can't.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Herra Tohtori on October 31, 2008, 09:48:29 am
2D normal, 3D optional. I got it at last, didn't I?

That's the option I would like best (along with some others on the FSU team). There are other options still on the table, as this thread should show. DaBrain's argument about keeping things simple does have it's merits also.


Quote
Now, your 2D shockwave is fantastic. Congratulations! However, the 3D has higher quality. I was wondering if it could be ''converted'' to 2D. I suppose it can't.


It isn't "my" 2D shockwave effect. In fact I don't even know who made it, but I would love to learn that so we could ask for the uncompressed original files for that effect, and possibly in higher resolution as well.

The 3D effect does have better texture quality at this moment, but that's partially because it uses one quarter of the texture and tiles it onto the model four times to form a circle, which means it can utilize twice as good resolution at same memory consumption as the 2D effect (at the price of being tiled so if you're picky you can notice some repetition on the quarters...).
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: chief1983 on October 31, 2008, 10:32:19 am
Spicious, it's not even that the people who voted are 'stupid', misinformed perhaps, but that the poll question didn't even cover the repercussions of what it meant.  It says nothing about the fact that it's orders of magnitude more difficult to switch to one from the other, and that problem wasn't really discussed until after quite a bit of voting.  I didn't even know the issue fully when I voted, but I did vote for 2d anyway.  Even if the 3d shock wave is the 'default', I still think it should be a separate file so it can be removed easily.  With Turey's installer, it could easily be set up as a check box I think, under the category of MediaVPs.  On the forum post, the files are usually linked separately anyway, and not as one big batch download, so you'll still have to manually download and install every file.  So why is there still so much discussion on something that seems like it can be dealt with so trivially?
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Topgun on October 31, 2008, 10:55:27 am
I don't see the big deal, if it's that hard to make the 3dshockwave the default then make the default 2d like what chief said.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Mobius on October 31, 2008, 11:58:36 am
3D Shockwave, worst case scenario - you'll see this one often with bombs, either firing or chasing them [Video (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?mjndnjzlze3)]:

(http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/8968/3dshockwaveworstcasescehv2.png)

That's EXACTLY what I don't like. That's EXACTLY the reason behind the fact that I don't like 3D shockwaves...

Think about it for a second - do you really like those plates?!?
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: ShadowGorrath on October 31, 2008, 12:18:52 pm
They look kinda OK to me, actually.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Mobius on October 31, 2008, 12:28:46 pm
But are you well aware of the fact that shockwaves spread in all directions?
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Rodo on October 31, 2008, 12:49:25 pm
Agreed on the fact that lots of us voted without knowing all the repercutions of our choice, I include miself between those, but I cant change my vote now, doing so would just make this thread a lot more confusing.



Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Mobius on October 31, 2008, 01:15:05 pm
Posting your thoughts is a good move, though... :)
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Commander Zane on October 31, 2008, 03:01:40 pm
3D Shockwave, worst case scenario - you'll see this one often with bombs, either firing or chasing them [Video (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?mjndnjzlze3)]:

(http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/8968/3dshockwaveworstcasescehv2.png)

That's EXACTLY what I don't like. That's EXACTLY the reason behind the fact that I don't like 3D shockwaves...

Think about it for a second - do you really like those plates?!?

At least it lets me know if I'm about to get raped for being too close to its maximum radius, do the 2D shockwaves do that for me? No. I used to fly like eight kilometers away from ANY ship that was about to explode because I wasn't sure what the safe distance was.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Mobius on October 31, 2008, 03:23:57 pm
Experience leads player to learn how shockwaves behave.

IMO it's mostly a matter of shockwave speed, if the shockwave is damn fast you have no hope of surviving.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Herra Tohtori on October 31, 2008, 03:58:53 pm
At least it lets me know if I'm about to get raped for being too close to its maximum radius, do the 2D shockwaves do that for me? No. I used to fly like eight kilometers away from ANY ship that was about to explode because I wasn't sure what the safe distance was.


Only to an extent... if you're not on the shockwave plane, determining that is just as difficult as it is with 2D shockwaves.

Without a real exapnding spherical/volumetric model, the shockwave is never going to be "accurate"; however the 2D shockwave is the better approximation of the two options, as long as the 3D shockwave does this behaviour where it doesn't always face the viewpoint (and if it would, the "3d-ness" would be a moot point anyway, at least in case of the ringwaves)...
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: castor on November 01, 2008, 03:53:27 pm
In some cases the 3D shockwave manages to look very very good!
In some cases the 3D shockwave manages to look horribly out of place!
The 2D shockwave looks about ok all the time.

One vote for 2D :yes:
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Mobius on November 01, 2008, 03:55:40 pm
Short and self explanatory comment, very nice! :D
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Mongoose on November 02, 2008, 01:51:27 am
I still prefer the 3D shockwaves visually (and most likely performance-wise, given the fact that they can tile their texture), but I voted for them without understanding the repercussions of including them as a default option.  I'm perfectly fine with downloading a separate VP file to activate the 3D option, so if you want to stick the 2D version in the main effects VP, that works for me. :)
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Mobius on November 02, 2008, 02:46:47 am
The best compromise is, in fact, to make everyone happy. :)
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: DaBrain on November 02, 2008, 04:04:03 am
I still prefer the 3D shockwaves visually (and most likely performance-wise, given the fact that they can tile their texture), but I voted for them without understanding the repercussions of including them as a default option.  I'm perfectly fine with downloading a separate VP file to activate the 3D option, so if you want to stick the 2D version in the main effects VP, that works for me. :)

There is nothing to understand. It's really just a matter of which one you like better.

Technical problems with that are up FSU and SCP to fix, so you can get what you want.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Romanmolf on November 02, 2008, 06:25:46 am
I like the 2D the most, one more vote for them. :)
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Topgun on November 02, 2008, 01:12:38 pm
I still prefer the 3D shockwaves visually (and most likely performance-wise, given the fact that they can tile their texture), but I voted for them without understanding the repercussions of including them as a default option.  I'm perfectly fine with downloading a separate VP file to activate the 3D option, so if you want to stick the 2D version in the main effects VP, that works for me. :)
I agree.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: DaBrain on November 02, 2008, 01:55:37 pm
I just made a request for an option in the launcher to disable 3d shockwaves.

If that is possible, you could simply choose which ones you like better, even if there are some new 2d or 3d ones to come out before the next MVP release.

I feel that this option is long overdue, since the shockwave discussion is still as heated as when the first 3d shockwaves came out.


3D Shockwave, worst case scenario - you'll see this one often with bombs, either firing or chasing them [Video (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?mjndnjzlze3)]:

Yeah, it happens, but it happens very rarely. Acutally, I think it might even just happen for bombs.

The next 3d shockwave won't have that problem. With a special shader for the sockwave, it could be easily avoided as well, even though, with what I have in mind, you wouldn't see the shockwave in this case.

Anyway, wait for the next shockwave. The idea I got is pretty solid, I just need to redo the whole effect for it and I simply don't have the time to do that right now.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Romanmolf on November 03, 2008, 07:32:41 am
So that ''worst-case scenario'' won't exist any more in 3D.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Zacam on November 04, 2008, 10:37:23 am
As per the change log for the Nov-04 Nightly build:

Quote
r4936 | phreak | 2008-11-03 23:21:00 -0600 (Mon, 03 Nov 2008) | 1 line
Changed paths:
   M /trunk/fs2_open/code/cmdline/cmdline.cpp
   M /trunk/fs2_open/code/cmdline/cmdline.h
   M /trunk/fs2_open/code/weapon/shockwave.cpp

Apply Spicious' patch from http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,57573.0.html

This makes an "Enable 3D Shockwave" option in Graphics for the launcher.

This means that we can now package both 2D _and_ 3D Shockwaves into the VP's and people can choose which ever they like.

Also, TBL/TBM edits to set either a "Shockwave Model" (for 3D) or "Shockwave Name" (for 2D) will use the specified shockwave regardless of the launcher setting. So, if you do not have 3D Shockwaves enabled, but a weapon is set to use a 3D Shockwave, it will use that 3D one unless a 2D is also specified.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Hero_Swe on November 05, 2008, 05:33:00 am
I voted for the 3D one because i thought 3D= Three Dimensions= Spherical Shockwave....i was wrong...... :(
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: TrashMan on November 05, 2008, 11:25:05 am
Question is - the current 3D shockwave with the funky angles, or a more sane 3D shockwave?
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: pecenipicek on November 05, 2008, 11:32:59 am
can we actually do something looking like a proper volumetric one? since the shader stuff isnt yet implemented, the best bet IMHO is to make a semi transparent sphere with a certain texture and put some particles in to simulate a volumetric boom. just my 2 cents.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: chief1983 on November 05, 2008, 11:56:58 am
I had this explained and demonstrated to me, at length, in IRC the other day, why a volumetric shockwave won't work without shaders.  Trust me, this is as good as it's likely to get for now.  Feel free to try to prove Zacam, VA, and HT wrong about that though, cause I'd love to see a volumetric shockwave effect that looked great too.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: TrashMan on November 08, 2008, 06:14:49 am
Without a real exapnding spherical/volumetric model, the shockwave is never going to be "accurate"; however the 2D shockwave is the better approximation of the two options, as long as the 3D shockwave does this behaviour where it doesn't always face the viewpoint (and if it would, the "3d-ness" would be a moot point anyway, at least in case of the ringwaves)...

True.
 However it would still be easier on the resources to have a 3D shockwave that just faces the viewpoint, wouldn't it?
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: DaBrain on November 08, 2008, 07:04:51 am
If we could use our own mesh as sprite/particle, instead of a simple quad, we could reduce the memory use of this new 2d/3d shockwave by 3/4.

Of course that would be even lower with a single frame/texture.


But to be honest, I never understood the 'realism' point in a game like FS2.
There are so many things "wrong" and unrealistic, that it simply doesn't make sense to me to argue about the realism of a shockwave.
What about the weapons? Subach Laser? The explosions would have to look different. And there I don't want to play without sound.

It's either complete realism, or this kind of "Star Wars realism", which has shockwaves just like the 3d shockwave.

A completely realistic space game would be interesting as well, but it wouldn't be anything like Freespace.

And if you still want to argue about it, watch this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5sdlDK0TOw) and tell me again that 3d shockwaves do not fit into Freespace.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: TrashMan on November 08, 2008, 08:36:36 am

But to be honest, I never understood the 'realism' point in a game like FS2.
There are so many things "wrong" and unrealistic, that it simply doesn't make sense to me to argue about the realism of a shockwave.
What about the weapons? Subach Laser? The explosions would have to look different. And there I don't want to play without sound.

Fair enough.
What about "because the shockwave as facing you in stock FS2 and it looked better"?

Also on another note - just case FS isn't fully realistic, does that mean we should add even more things that aren't realistic? an approach like that IMHO, sorta cheapens the setting. It's like saying - LOTR isn't realistic. Let's add fluffy talking bunnies.
Add realism = added immersion.
Or maybe I just like bits of realism cause they make me feel like the product is a higher intelectual quality (read: Makes me feel smarter for usaing said product) :p

Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Mobius on November 08, 2008, 08:41:17 am
I don't think it's a matter of pure realism, we're not asking for radical changes in terms of game physics. Many members consider 2D shockwaves a much better choice and this has nearly nothing to do with realism. There are unrealistic things that may seem plausible - 3D shockwaves don't belong to this cathegory.

Not to mention technical advantages...3D shockwaves kill slow computers.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Vasudan Admiral on November 08, 2008, 10:21:34 am
If you don't like 3d shockwaves - for any reason, do not use the '-3Dshockwave' command line in the builds you run the final  3.6.10 VPs from. Problem solved. :p

Unless anyone can produce a much much better shockwave that can take the place of both 2D and 3D waves without people complaining, this is the way it's gonna be. ;)


Not to mention technical advantages...3D shockwaves kill slow computers.

Just a note here - the low end part of the package will also contain a 2d and 3d shockwave - and in this case the 3d version is far more efficient than the 2d. The inverse is true of the high end part.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: chief1983 on November 08, 2008, 10:23:53 am
Yeah I was just going to comment on that VA, saying that the 3d kills slow computers is terribly untrue, anyone running a low end computer and not the adveffects would be better off running the 3d shockwave in terms of speed.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Romanmolf on November 08, 2008, 12:18:46 pm
I always thought that the whole 3D thing slowed computers down.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: castor on November 08, 2008, 01:27:21 pm
How hard would it be to simply have the 3D shockwave on a 90° angle to the viewer, instead of on random planes?
It would look like a 2D shockwave, but performance would be improved.
This would increase the usability of the 3D version immensely. Yet I'd rather have it only cut out the really low angles instead of forcing 90 degrees all the time (except for the "side views" it looks cooler than the 2d version already).

Maybe hand this out the next time some fresh coder appears asking for something to tinker with in the code ;7
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Mobius on November 08, 2008, 01:39:13 pm
If you don't like 3d shockwaves - for any reason, do not use the '-3Dshockwave' command line in the builds you run the final  3.6.10 VPs from. Problem solved. :p

I'm glad :). I was refering to old situation in my post, anyway.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: TrashMan on November 08, 2008, 05:36:00 pm
Then to make everyone happy, we need a third option!

2D shockwaves look better for many, but drain resources.

3D shockwaves are better performance-wise, but look stupid with all those funky angles.

So add a "Realistic 3D" shockwave that fixes the angle thing and everyone should be happy. I hope.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: DaBrain on November 08, 2008, 06:40:35 pm
Just wait for my next shockwave. It won't look weird, even in the worst case angle.

It will be a 256*512 texture. If things work out, it will look better than the current 3d shockwave. It's going to be some hard work, but it should enhance the whole capital ship explosion in a way, a 2d shockwave could not.

There is no need for another type/class of shockwave.

Not to mention technical advantages...3D shockwaves kill slow computers.[/mobius]

The other FSU members have replied to this already, but let me tell you again. In terms of resources all 3d shockwaves are better. They use a quarter of the full texture. So at the same on-screen res, they only need 1/4 of the memory of a similar 2d shockwave.

And the low-end shockwave is even more efficient than the original FS2 shockwave.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Droid803 on November 08, 2008, 06:45:59 pm
IIRC, some 3d shockwaves use a full ring texture...
But its not like its hard to change.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: TrashMan on November 08, 2008, 06:51:03 pm
Just wait for my next shockwave. It won't look weird, even in the worst case angle.

It will be a 256*512 texture. If things work out, it will look better than the current 3d shockwave. It's going to be some hard work, but it should enhance the whole capital ship explosion in a way, a 2d shockwave could not.

There is no need for another type/class of shockwave.

Now you peeked my interest. I have no idea how you plan to fix the 3D shockwave without fixing the angle thing (I believe that's impossible), but hey, I've been proven wrong before! :D Not often, but still.... ;7
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: DaBrain on November 08, 2008, 06:55:00 pm
It's all about avoind the flat look.

In theory, that's not too hard. But what I aim for is actually pretty hard.
The texture will look pretty funky, but the effect will not. ;)

My concept is pretty solid.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Droid803 on November 08, 2008, 07:01:47 pm
Oooh...
Can't wait :D
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: pecenipicek on November 08, 2008, 07:23:30 pm
why do i have a feeling it will have something to do with fresnels? :p
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: DaBrain on November 09, 2008, 04:56:50 am
Fresnel without shaders?  :doubt:
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Mobius on November 09, 2008, 05:41:40 am
Then to make everyone happy, we need a third option!

2D shockwaves look better for many, but drain resources.

3D shockwaves are better performance-wise, but look stupid with all those funky angles.

So add a "Realistic 3D" shockwave that fixes the angle thing and everyone should be happy. I hope.

Isn't what you said the exact contrary of the truth? Aren't 3D shockwaves the cause of massive slowdowns?

And how would you deal with a 3D shockwave with fixed angle in multiplayer missions?
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: pecenipicek on November 09, 2008, 06:10:04 am
Fresnel without shaders?  :doubt:
whoops? :p
i'm not that knowledgeable what is possible and what isnt without shaders in fso at the moment.
Then to make everyone happy, we need a third option!

2D shockwaves look better for many, but drain resources.

3D shockwaves are better performance-wise, but look stupid with all those funky angles.

So add a "Realistic 3D" shockwave that fixes the angle thing and everyone should be happy. I hope.

Isn't what you said the exact contrary of the truth? Aren't 3D shockwaves the cause of massive slowdowns?

And how would you deal with a 3D shockwave with fixed angle in multiplayer missions?

the 3D shockwaves as is are certainly more efficient than the 2D ones. lowest detail level 3D is more efficient than retail shockwave.
why? because it uses one quarter of the entire circle and tiles it 8 times.

the one that causes slowdowns is the Adv_effects one... (not that it affects my rig at all...)

3D shockwave with fixed angle in multi. simple. make rendering of it based on clients relative position to it and rotate accordingly, just make sure that from everyones point of view it originates from the same spot.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Mobius on November 09, 2008, 07:12:26 am
I was sure it was the 3D one to cause slowdowns.

Well, at this point I think we should be using an ANI file.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: pecenipicek on November 09, 2008, 07:29:15 am
the most inefficient way of using animated textures?


good thinking there, sherlock.


the 3D ones cause(d) the slowdowns. WHEN YOU USE THE ****ING ADV_EFFECTS VERSION.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Zacam on November 09, 2008, 07:40:21 am
Well, yeah. 160+ animated frames timed to render on an expanding model where the animation also gives the impression of expansion.

It _is_ rather impressive that it has worked so well.

The same model with a single frame works even faster. Naturally But I still prefer the 2D (though a more simplified version of it) for shockwave's as caused by weapon detonations.

And on some systems, the Advanced version only causes a problem when there is a lot of them. Not everyone has one of those though.

And really. Was it necessary to bold your rather effuse statement, pecenipicek? I think the point has been made well enough by now that you shouldn't be getting a raised blood pressure from it.

Mobius: Don't ever again suggest reverting to the ani. In fact, forget it ever existed. Any EFF/Model or Eff+Model combination we can come up with will be better than that, as well as render smoother.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Mobius on November 09, 2008, 07:49:00 am
the 3D ones cause(d) the slowdowns. WHEN YOU USE THE ****ING ADV_EFFECTS VERSION.

It's the most common. People rarely exclude Adv_effects.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: pecenipicek on November 09, 2008, 07:55:41 am
which is a problem with people, not the inherent technology causing it. there are 4 different versions of the 3D shockwave, low, med, hi and adv_effects afaik. i'm one of the rare people who actually use the adv effects properly since it doesnt incur slowdowns on my rig at all.



@Zacam, yeah, sorry but mobius got it pumping again after a rather... low-pressured day :p
in any case, Mobius, i'd like to ask you to stop spreading misleading statements about either of the shockwaves or any other thing behind the stuff that makes FSO graphics what they are. you have no idea most of the time what you're talking about and you spread your wrong ideas and conclusions without knowing the whole reasons why something is the way it is or works the way it does.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Romanmolf on November 09, 2008, 08:34:48 am
On my rig it does very Little... but not none.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: pecenipicek on November 09, 2008, 10:29:20 am
then dont use it. the differences are not that noticeable.
Title: Re: 2d or 3d shockwaves for the next release?
Post by: Romanmolf on November 10, 2008, 01:39:12 am
OK