Hard Light Productions Forums
Site Management => Site Support / Feedback => Topic started by: TrashMan on November 05, 2008, 08:17:59 am
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I have a feeling this is why you keep getting monkeyed.
What? What the hell did I do? I don't get it.
Maybe I'm stupid and missing something, but I can't for the life of me think of why would any sane person monkey or ban me. I'm civil and obey the forum rules.
Now, I might be irritating sometimes, but that by itself is no grounds for banning/monkeying, because everyone can be irritating to someone else without even trying or wanting to, so you might as well go ban everyone all the time. I know a dozen people on these forums that irritate the hell out of me, but I wouldn't ban them.
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I have a feeling this is why you keep getting monkeyed.
What? What the hell did I do? I don't get it.
Maybe I'm stupid and missing something, but I can't for the life of me think of why would any sane person monkey or ban me. I'm civil and obey the forum rules.
Now, I might be irritating sometimes, but that by itself is no grounds for banning/monkeying, because everyone can be irritating to someone else without even trying or wanting to, so you might as well go ban everyone all the time. I know a dozen people on these forums that irritate the hell out of me, but I wouldn't ban them.
From other points of view you're not actually being civil.
But, seriously, focus on the positive -- now I'm excited to play your campaign!
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From other points of view you're not actually being civil.
That's the problem with POW's - you can see whatever you want to see.
As far as FOW goes - it will take a while. All missions are done but need tweaking and adding stuff. and I just got SOTS:AMOC...and my monitor seems to be kicking the bucket or something.
Speaking of which, I'd really like to know why I was monkeyed..
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Sounds fine :o
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Speaking of which, I'd really like to know why I was monkeyed.
From what I was told it was for this (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,57496.0.html) coming so soon after the whole nonsense on this thread (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,57485.0.html).
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And might I ask - what exactly is the problem with either of them?
You (or someone else..I don't know who monkied me, so I'll just use the word you in the text..this you does not necessarily mean you you) are having trouble with me questioning the validity of initial media reports?
You think it's nonsense to not believe the first news that hits you, but instead wait a bit for confirmation? How exactly is stating my opinion on that matter in any way worthy of banning/monkeying?
As for the second - what's the problem with that one? I clearly wrote the impression I was getting and I clearly stated that there can very well be problems from a coding perspective that I'm not aware off. Unless you were offended by the snarky comment about pilots. In which case you're missing the joke/sarcasm.
If these two "incidents" (and I use the terms loosely) are an example of what you consider inappropriate on this forum or what you consider trolling...then you and I are not using the same dictionaries or apparently the same reality either....and I weep for anyone posting on this forum.
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And might I ask - what exactly is the problem with either of them?
You (or someone else..I don't know who monkied me, so I'll just use the word you in the text..this you does not necessarily mean you you) are having trouble with me questioning the validity of initial media reports?
You think it's nonsense to not believe the first news that hits you, but instead wait a bit for confirmation? How exactly is stating my opinion on that matter in any way worthy of banning/monkeying?
As for the second - what's the problem with that one? I clearly wrote the impression I was getting and I clearly stated that there can very well be problems from a coding perspective that I'm not aware off. Unless you were offended by the snarky comment about pilots. In which case you're missing the joke/sarcasm.
If these two "incidents" (and I use the terms loosely) are an example of what you consider inappropriate on this forum or what you consider trolling...then you and I are not using the same dictionaries or apparently the same reality either....and I weep for anyone posting on this forum.
Trash, the whole problem is your confrontational attitude and your inability to recognize your own behavior. If you just accepted it and took a more mellow approach, you probably wouldn't be monkeyed again.
Basically, it's just some common etiquette: don't get up in people's faces with your opinion. Show some courtesy. Be respectful. This is a particularly mature community, which may be why you're monkeyed so often.
I think you're a decent guy. You just have to lay off the martyred attitude and the confrontationalism.
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Nicely put, but that's not the whole picture.
There is no "martyr attitude" or some deliberate confronationalism.
I'm not a human doormat to sit idly by when people s*** on me and tell blatant lies about me. Insults I can stand, up to a point - but not injustice. If anything, I've been letting thing like this pass without reaction for far too long.
As for courtesy and respect - I always show them. Go back and read my posts and you'll see I practicely never use namecalling even in a heated debate and I don't have a habbit of dismissing others people oppinions as that or a moron.
If you see me as confontational, well..there's not much I can do about it. I'm saddened that the' the impression you have of me, but that's simply not true.
Lastly, while you intention is appreciated, I'm not in need of advice on how to behave on forums. As I've said before, I'm a regular on 20 forums and this is the only one where I ever had any kind of trouble...for nothing.
What I do know 1000000% is that admins shouldn't misuse their power like that.
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As I've said before I don't care if the other forums let you get away with acting this way. Or if you are better behaved on other forums. Here on HLP you will be judged to the standard HLP uses. On Game-Warden I tend to be more relaxed because the standard is different there. Different boards have different characters. There is no universal moderating standard.
If you feel you've been treated harshly bring it up on the Site Support forum and we'll see if people agree with you. If so then the admins might consider doing something about it. From what I've heard though you have no support. Pretty much everyone I've talked to has agreed that your actions in the past deserved monkeying. If you can't see why then it's a real pity cause it's likely to keep happening to you then.
Anyway you've been told where and how to address this matter. And that's all I'm going to say about it here cause it's pretty much off topic.
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As I've said before I don't care if the other forums let you get away with acting this way. Or if you are better behaved on other forums. Here on HLP you will be judged to the standard HLP uses. On Game-Warden I tend to be more relaxed because the standard is different there. Different boards have different characters. There is no universal moderating standard.
Other forums don't let me get away with anything. If anything they are stricter rules than here. And I behave completely the same here and there. I'l llet you do the math.
If you feel you've been treated harshly bring it up on the Site Support forum and we'll see if people agree with you. If so then the admins might consider doing something about it. From what I've heard though you have no support. Pretty much everyone I've talked to has agreed that your actions in the past deserved monkeying. If you can't see why then it's a real pity cause it's likely to keep happening to you then.
I wonder who you've been talking too..
This probably should go into Site Support, but I kinda don't think it will do any good..if anything will. Powers that be aren't good at or willing to moderate themselves. but you are right, this is not the forum for this..
Signing off.
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Isn't this more or less, well, case in point?
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Well that was entertaining :rolleyes:
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Isn't this more or less, well, case in point?
Case in point of what? If people actually review the forum guidelines http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,37583.msg0.html#new (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,37583.msg0.html#new) it's not really clear to me what rules Trashman is breaking either, with the possible exception of:
Be nice. If you don't know how, go watch reruns of Mr. Rodgers' Neighbourhood - he's a wonderful example.
But his posts, for all their sarcasm and abbrasiveness still fall within the bounds of:
Lively and interesting debate is encouraged and welcomed. However we ask that members respect the right of free speech. That is to say that as long as a comment isn't of a racist or sexist nature - a member has a right to say it. If you disagree with something that someone has said then feel free to argue a retort on the sole condition that (in keeping with point 2) it is not a personal or bigoted attack. Argue the point; debate the person.
Having an attitude, and attacking someone are two very different things.
Goober's reply in the first thread "Do you have Asberger's or something? Because honestly, you seem to have no common sense. " is what I would take as a personal attack but there doesn't seem to be any fallout for that. I guess if a personal attack is "justified" it's okay?
In either case, if someone is monkeyed or banned I would suggest that the reason for that action being taken is conveyed to them via PM or whatnot along with how that reason violates the forum rules. Ie "your tone is too sacrastic and condescending" and violates the "be nice" rule. Monkeying someone without even saying why isn't going to solve anything. That's like having a player fail an FS2 mission without telling them which objective they didn't achieve. Of course the "be nice" rule itself is very subjective in its own right.
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I agreed when he was monkeyed for sexism a while back. I don't know if I agree with the monkeying since then, but perhaps the admins consider him 'on thin ice'. I'm sympathetic to both sides, and I hope that Trash can stick around and talk with the rest of us.
There is a certain common sense element to not getting monkeyed which both TrashMan and BlackDove violate consistently and entertainingly, but BlackDove seems to do it intentionally. I'm not sure this is a completely fair element to Trash, however.
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I don't have a habbit of dismissing others people oppinions as that or a moron.
If you see me as confontational, well..there's not much I can do about it. I'm saddened that the' the impression you have of me, but that's simply not true.
Go back and read this (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,57496.msg1159821.html#msg1159821) post and this (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,57485.msg1158984.html#msg1158984) post. These are two examples. You have a habit of completely dismissing, out-of-hand, anybody who disagrees with you without bothering to give the other person's point even two seconds of consideration. Even when it's apparent to everyone present that the other person knows much more about the subject in question than you do. And usually you do it in an extremely disrespectful and/or condescending manner.
Goober's reply in the first thread "Do you have Asberger's or something? Because honestly, you seem to have no common sense. " is what I would take as a personal attack but there doesn't seem to be any fallout for that. I guess if a personal attack is "justified" it's okay?
No, that was a personal attack, and I apologize. But it was written out of extreme frustration.
The monkeyings are starting to serve multiple purposes. The number one purpose is to discipline TrashMan and make him see that he needs to conduct himself differently if he wants to participate in a discussion. But now they're starting to be used as a way to provide a few days' relief from his jackassery.
I mean, honestly. I even agree with TrashMan's points occasionally, but even then I'm embarrassed to participate in the same discussions that he does.
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Having an attitude, and attacking someone are two very different things.
Goober's reply in the first thread "Do you have Asberger's or something? Because honestly, you seem to have no common sense. " is what I would take as a personal attack but there doesn't seem to be any fallout for that. I guess if a personal attack is "justified" it's okay?
I wouldn't say it's jsutified because it's a personal attack, but rather because I'm on the recieveing end. Apparently if you're irritated by the other guy it's ok to insult.
Go back and read this post and this post. These are two examples. You have a habit of completely dismissing, out-of-hand, anybody who disagrees with you without bothering to give the other person's point even two seconds of consideration. Even when it's apparent to everyone present that the other person knows much more about the subject in question than you do. And usually you do it in an extremely disrespectful and/or condescending manner.
Then learn to read Goob. Seriously. Cause I wasn't being dismissive not in the slightest.
I was stating the IMPRESSION I got regarding the pilot table. IMPRESSION. And I clearly added at the end that there very well might be things from the coding perspective that make things more complicated than they APPEAR to me.
How the f*** is that dismissive?
Not to mention that there is nothing disrespective in there, only a bit of sarcasm...or do you expect people to worship the ground you walk on simply because you're Goob and a admin? But I guess you can't take a joke....
Neither is the second link you posted anything strange. so, you can get irritated and lash out, even when there's no real reason to do so...but when I'm misquoted and pick on, I'm not allowed to get irritated and post in a harsher tone? Immediate monkey? How does double standards sound to you? Familiar?
I've been on these forums for 9 years. The banning and monkying started only recently (year - year and half). I haven't changed my posting behavior since I joined, so where were you before?
Speaking of which, my netiquette is quite fine thank you. No admin, moderator, developer or poster on any other forum ever complained.
But apparently I've rubbed you the wrong way at some point and now you have a -100 tolerance treshold for anything you think I'm doing.
I read about a interesting social experiment - when you don't like someone, or have heard bad things about him, you expect bad things from him. So when you analyze/read his actions/words, you immediately search for the worst possible interpretations and the worst possible motivation and stick with that.
So of course...my motivations MUST be dark..I MUST be acting our of sheer malice...and there's no possiblity that my words could be intepreted in any other matter than how you did interpret them.....
I fully remember the idiotic reasons I was banned before. They made no more sense that these "grave accusations" do now. I could lsit htem too, but these two are more then enough to illustrate the redicolous banning/monkey policy
The monkeyings are starting to serve multiple purposes. The number one purpose is to discipline TrashMan and make him see that he needs to conduct himself differently if he wants to participate in a discussion. But now they're starting to be used as a way to provide a few days' relief from his jackassery.
Then you admitt it. You using your banning powers because you consider me jackass and want to shut me up.
This has nothing to do with rules or proper behavior.
I sometimes consider you a grade A jackass, yet I still wouldn't be banning/monkeying you simply cause you're irritating (to me). That's not what an admin does.
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Whether someone is a jackass or not is unimportant. What is important is whether or not they are a disruptive jackass.
And the Guidelines For Forum Conduct are just that, guidelines. It quite clearly states that
we reserve the right to review problems on a case by case basis. In these situations our word shall be final.
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In that case the situation is clear - I'm not, or ever was, a disruptive anything.
Unless of course, you also take the liberty to re-define any word in the dictionary as it suits you.
EDIT: Speaking of which, if we assume I was misbehaving and banning/monkieying is used to encourage me/tech me not to do it again, it's without any effect without an explanation. After all, how can someone avoid doing something wrong if he doesn't know what he did wrong?
So far, the explanations for the last 3-4 "incidents" are lacking. Either they were not provided at all, or they don't hold water at all.
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I think the presence of this thread says otherwise. I'm kind of looking forward to monkeyed for whining about being monkeyed now.
Other forums don't let me get away with anything. If anything they are stricter rules than here. And I behave completely the same here and there. I'l llet you do the math.
You call that maths?
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Idiosynchronisity maybe.........
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I think the presence of this thread says otherwise. I'm kind of looking forward to monkeyed for whining about being monkeyed now.
So a legitimate complain is "disruptive"? Criticism is "disruptive"? Saying anything you don't like is "disruptive"?
I'd hate to live in any country you'd govern then.
Other forums don't let me get away with anything. If anything they are stricter rules than here. And I behave completely the same here and there. I'l llet you do the math.
You call that maths?
Yes. Statistics to be more exact.
Either all the thousands on all other forums are wrong, or the very few on this forum are. Occams Razor. Which is more likely?
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So a legitimate complain is "disruptive"? Criticism is "disruptive"? Saying anything you don't like is "disruptive"?
It is if you do it right.
Yes. Statistics to be more exact.
Either all the thousands on all other forums are wrong, or the very few on this forum are. Occams Razor. Which is more likely?
Statistics is hardly maths. In any case, statistics tends to require statistics, which you have failed to provide, to work. Additionally, that relies on the assumption of universal truth. Finally, Ockham's razor tends to apply based on evidence rather than belief of crowds of people.
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I've been waiting for this thread, since I agree that the monkeyings are getting a little out of hand. I trust the admins and they do a good job but they seem to have a few scapegoats that get monkeyed over and over for trivialities. Can't we assume that these members are acting in good faith?
I mean we all have to deal with people who irritate us; I feel that monkeying Trashman, Mobius, or other contributing members for the smallest indiscretion is an abuse of power. Keep it up and they might leave, and we would all be worse off. The community as a whole benefits from its members, and after all they are just ordinary people.
Really, I approve the use of monkeying against belligerent, abusive, and grossly inappropriate posts (like that post in the announcements forum a few weeks ago, or the debacle with LuaPineapple, or when political arguments turn into personal attacks) but the examples cited above wouldn't have even been noticed by the majority of the community.
Give it a rest, will ya? We're all human and we all have different personalities. This repeated monkeying of the same people over and over is really irritating to the people who have to work with them; either they deserve to be banned, or they should be cut some slack.
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Trashman is abrasive, childish, and blind to his own faults. I don't blame the admins for repeatedly monkeying him, because he has been a monkey.
But maybe we should grant him a period of tolerance. He's got a pretty awful custom title, after all. If he continues acting out, people will just start nodding knowingly.
I think he deserves measure of forgiveness. He knows now what he does, and if he keeps up with it, his own actions will be an effective punishment.
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Everyone deserves a chance, a warning at least. The admins here are pretty fair. I myself got banned over a REALLY REALLY stupid error on my aprt, but i pleaded my case and the powers that be did a bit of research (cheers Karajorma :lol) and it all worked out. We can all be a bit "impulsive" in our posts, it's just nature of the species..
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So a legitimate complain is "disruptive"? Criticism is "disruptive"? Saying anything you don't like is "disruptive"?
It is if you do it right.
All right then. Please, explain it in detail on my own examples.
Go trough my last few posts that got me banned, analyze them and explain in detail what I did wrong.
I'll even list a few examples you can look over.
1. - Being banned during a discussion on female right for noticing that there really are phisical differences between men and women and for saying that if I were special forces I'd prefer a all male team (for obvious reasons). Somehow stating scientific facts in a polite manner was very insulting.
2. - Banned for questioning the validity of a historical event, as currently written. I repeat - questioning. not denying. not denouncing. Merely questioning. And then the very people who banned me say questioning things is the foundation of science. And apparently it is, only if you not question something they don't like.
3. - the last incident. Comnenting my observations on pilot files and code in a sarcastic manner and questioning initial media reports.
There's more, but this is more than enough. Look it up, quote me if you like and explain in detail exactly what I did wrong.
After all, I'll learn nothing if I don't know EXACTLY where I went wrong.
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Trashman is abrasive, childish, and blind to his own faults. I don't blame the admins for repeatedly monkeying him, because he has been a monkey.
Ahh...the fallout of the womens right discussion. the one where you got offended when I used the phrase "fairer sex"?
Based on that reaction alone I can form a rather negative mental image of you, worse than what you consider me now.
Yet I don't call forth for you banishment.... I assume there was miscomminication instead of taking you as a brash, militant feminist. Which I could assume if I wanted to.
And that's the friggin problem here. Too much negative assumptions thrown around.
I certanly NEVER, NEVER wanted to or tried to irritate or insult anyone, nor do I act with malice or some hidden sinister intent. I know far too many people who get their kicks from ruining the day of others in any way they can - either by pure physical force or my machinations and rumors. I'm not one of them.
He knows now what he does, and if he keeps up with it, his own actions will be an effective punishment.
Not really. I still don't know what was supposedly wrong in that posts. I showed those same posts to a lot of people I know..they don't see nothing wrong in the posts either, altough a few did point out they they could be misinterpreted, if you really were looking for smut.
However, I don't think looking for the worst possible interpretation of any post is what anyone on the forum should do - especially and admin. We tend to do that in a heated bebates, but most of the stuff wasn't heated at all.
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I forgave you for that whole incident, remember? Ease off, I'm the one being nice to you. (The issue was the phrase 'weaker sex', (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyudmila_Pavlichenko) anyway -- but moving on!)
Look, Trash, what I'm saying is that the problem isn't really what you say. It's that you act like you're perpetually angry at everyone. And I'm arguing that you don't need to be monkeyed all the time, since you've got that title to warn people off.
I think many people are frustrated that you don't seem to be learning how to behave politely.
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Just FYI - weaker sex is valid and correct term (referring to physical strength, not strength in general), by itself not insultive, but I can see how it can be taken as such.
Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that I am behaving politely, both in forums and in RL.
Go trough my posts in some heated debates and you'll see. I'm the last to insult or use namecaling and I try to keep a level head and write politely and concise.
That some people might get the wrong picture and take that stance as agressive or insultive or condensending is a problem, but not with me.
I can't write more politely that I was doing so far..I simply don't see how is that possible without not writing at all.
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That some people might get the wrong picture and take that stance as agressive or insultive or condensending is a problem, but not with me.
I can't write more politely that I was doing so far..I simply don't see how is that possible without not writing at all.
You, yourself have admitted to using sarcasm in your posts. That can be insulting to some people, as you are insulting their intelligence. It all depends how use sarcasm and when. Using sarcasm during a heated debate is usually insulting. Using it in general conversation is generally acceptable especially if it is used in a witty way, but when you use it to pull other people down, (or their point for that matter), it's offensive.
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You hit the problem on the head.
Unless you have a lawyer with you that will go over every sentance several times (and even then), then you're bound to write things that SOME people will get insulted/offended about. Your attempts at humor or concern or sound advice will be taken the wrong way. So what's the solution? Not to joke or use sarcasm ever? And not even that would help.
Frankly, it impossible to hold a conversation of sizabe length without someone, somewhere getting insulted/irritated. Don't forget, there are people around the world who get irritated/insulted by your very breathing or existance.
So the real issue is not weather someone was insulted - the issue is weather he should be insulted in the first place and weather you meant to offend/insult him.
The internet would be far better place if people just didn't assume the worst and learned to let possible insults go.
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Sarcasm is rather rampant on this board I find anyway. How many times has someone like person A posted something sarcastic, then person B gets offended, and person A goes "oh, I was being sarcastic. Didn't you notice the smilie?". If I waste enough time on here I can probably find a daily example of that.
As an observation, Trashman differs from the norm a bit, in that when he's sarcastic there's no ambiguity. And yes, Sarcasm can be taken as offensive but it can also be taken as humour as well.
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You hit the problem on the head.
Unless you have a lawyer with you that will go over every sentance several times (and even then), then you're bound to write things that SOME people will get insulted/offended about. Your attempts at humor or concern or sound advice will be taken the wrong way. So what's the solution? Not to joke or use sarcasm ever? And not even that would help.
Frankly, it impossible to hold a conversation of sizabe length without someone, somewhere getting insulted/irritated. Don't forget, there are people around the world who get irritated/insulted by your very breathing or existance.
So the real issue is not weather someone was insulted - the issue is weather he should be insulted in the first place and weather you meant to offend/insult him.
The internet would be far better place if people just didn't assume the worst and learned to let possible insults go.
I agree with most of what you're saying...but, nonetheless, nobody else on HLP seems to have this problem! So you must be doing something differently.
We just have to figure out what. As I'm said, I'm eager to keep you on board and un-monkeyed.
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I mean we all have to deal with people who irritate us; I feel that monkeying Trashman, Mobius, or other contributing members for the smallest indiscretion is an abuse of power.
Mobius was warned not to spam that particular thread numerous times. On at least two occasions I've told him to talk less about off topic nonsense as that thread is meant to be about screenshots and not about chat.
If we were going to monkey Mobius for generally spamming we'd have done it years ago but since he had been warned more than once something more severe than a simple telling off was called for.
As for Trashman, I'll give this debate a little more time before I go into why I've been monkeying him so often.
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And as a moderator I shouldn't have been egging him on there...
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I don't want to join the monkeying/spamming debate but I want to post something about forum discussions.
As TrashMan said, certain comments aren't likely to be shared by the whole community. It's normal to have and discuss different opinions.
I don't like, however, when people point me out as a second TrashMan or a flamer when I keep discussing certain subjects in a correct and civil way. If people think I'm wrong I have all the right to provide additional proofs(if there are any) that backup my theories, thoughts, choices, etc.
People simply don't tend to tolerate prolonged discussions.
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I think the key is to use sarcasm tags, or insincesetity tags. It's only the internet, keep it jovial :)
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People simply don't tend to tolerate prolonged discussions.
Well, not exactly. Internet discussions tend to follow a generalized version of Godwin's Law: as a discussion grows longer, the probability of it becoming stupid approaches 1. That's why long threads are frequently locked.
I don't have a problem disagreeing with TrashMan. Nor do I have a problem with him being theatrical about it. What I have a problem with is his condescension and arrogance. In the SCP thread, for example, he was told twice by two different SCP veterans that the pilot file upgrades were highly infeasible, yet he responded in just about the most arrogant way he possibly could. His disclaimer did nothing to mitigate that.
I've removed TrashMan's title as a show of good faith, but I've read nothing in his explanations that convinces me the monkeyings were unjustified. If anything, his responses demonstrate that he continues to refuse to learn from his mistakes, even when people take the time to sit down and walk him through the problem areas.
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2. - Banned for questioning the validity of a historical event, as currently written. I repeat - questioning. not denying. not denouncing. Merely questioning. And then the very people who banned me say questioning things is the foundation of science. And apparently it is, only if you not question something they don't like.
You were banned for repeatedly posting about it after being warned it was off-topic.
And that's pretty much why you were nearly monkeyed on the Syria attack thread too.
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Well, not exactly. Internet discussions tend to follow a generalized version of Godwin's Law: as a discussion grows longer, the probability of it becoming stupid approaches 1. That's why long threads are frequently locked.
It happens when people start posting nonsense, more emoticons than words and other bad stuff. I still don't get why keeping a discussion on tends to lead people to consider me a second TrashMan(no offense, Toni).
If my vision of the Ancients doesn't share yours and you keep acting as if your theory is the only, correct one I have all the rights to reply. It's legitimate.
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This is more interesting than the US election to be honest.
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It happens when people start posting nonsense, more emoticons than words and other bad stuff. I still don't get why keeping a discussion on tends to lead people to consider me a second TrashMan(no offense, Toni).
I suspect if someone called you that it's for arguing about something way past the point most people would have given it up as a waste of their time.
That said if someone does act as though they have the only answer for something Freespace related it tends to get on my nerves too.
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I think people should come to compromises - when a discussion between two or more community members with valid but yet different opinions comes to a stalemate it'd be mature, IMO, to accept all opinions as valid ones.
I don't get why my opinions are considered rubbish - maybe because I'm a bastard? :doubt:
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I don't get why my opinions are considered rubbish - maybe because I'm a bastard? :doubt:
Mainly I think it's the fact the way you express yourself seems weird to some people, which is due to language constrains.
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You know, literal translations don't work. At least, not always.
Well, I'm done with this topic. Bye.
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Well, I'm done with this topic. Bye.
I guess I should stop fanning the flames too.
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This is really late, but in regards to one of your posts, Goober:
I have Aspergers :nervous:
I'm not really offended, but i am a little miffed...
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I don't have a problem disagreeing with TrashMan. Nor do I have a problem with him being theatrical about it. What I have a problem with is his condescension and arrogance. In the SCP thread, for example, he was told twice by two different SCP veterans that the pilot file upgrades were highly infeasible, yet he responded in just about the most arrogant way he possibly could. His disclaimer did nothing to mitigate that.
And I say again, there was no arrogance or malice in my post.
First of all, I wasn't actually paying much attention to the project tags of the posters at that time, so if someone was a SCP veteran I might have missed it.
Secondly, there was no detailed explanation as to why and the wording itself was not concise so I might have gotten the wrong idea myself.
Thirdly, I was mostly talking about the pilot files from a GAMEPLAY perspective (loosing piltos stats and not being able to play multi).
So yes, you got the wrong idea. Even if I was bloody serious, what I wrote were my observations, not facts and either way such a reaction was way overkill.
I've removed TrashMan's title as a show of good faith, but I've read nothing in his explanations that convinces me the monkeyings were unjustified. If anything, his responses demonstrate that he continues to refuse to learn from his mistakes, even when people take the time to sit down and walk him through the problem areas.
I don't actually recall anyone walking me trough the problem areas. it's usually "you're trolling" or "you're a moron2" followed by a ban, or not even that. No explanation is given, and even when I ask for it it's not detailed. This is actually the first time I'm getting something concrete.
Oh, b.t.w. - you could use to learn a few things yourself.
You were banned for repeatedly posting about it after being warned it was off-topic.
It was related. We were talking about Galileo.
Besides, if people ask me why I believe something, it's not proper not to answer. And when they start insulting you..well, leaving it at that without defending yourself...
I admit I should have cut down on the explanations, but you as admins didn't do a good job of calming the situations either. You let people insult me, heck, you even joined in yourself.
As for the Syria thing I made just two posts. 1 about my questioning the news so early and the second defending myself after getting hit by the "you are a moron for thinking that" replies. That it. Those 2 posts.
I get banned, and the people who call me a moron get a pat on the back.
So yeah. A whole lot of double-standards and misuse of power. And it's plain as day.
And that's pretty much why you were nearly monkeyed on the Syria attack thread too. [/quote]
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This is really late, but in regards to one of your posts, Goober:
I have Aspergers :nervous:
I'm not really offended, but i am a little miffed...
And this is a perfect example of what I'm saying.
Now let's assume Titan is a admin and Goob is a normal poster. Now let's also assume Titan is in a bad mood or is just looking for someone to ban..or get's irritated by Goob. He sees Goobs post, assumes the worst, get's heavily offened. BAM.
Was Goob being a moron? was his post really not fit for this forums? Nope. but will that stop him from getting banned by titan? Nope.
There is a simple phrase.. too easily offended. Too easy to rile up. Take your pick.
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It was related. We were talking about Galileo.
Besides, if people ask me why I believe something, it's not proper not to answer. And when they start insulting you..well, leaving it at that without defending yourself...
I admit I should have cut down on the explanations, but you as admins didn't do a good job of calming the situations either. You let people insult me, heck, you even joined in yourself.
The thread was not about Galileo, it was about Conservapedia. The thread was meant to be a light-hearted laugh at the idiocy of fundamentalists. You may have wanted to discuss Galileo but that's the kind of disruptive behaviour that I'm on about. The thread wasn't about that. You were asked to stop. You didn't.
And then despite being told that was why you were monkeyed you kept coming back and posting on the topic as soon as you were unmonkeyed. Which simply resulted in you being monkeyed again.
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Jeez people. It's only a minor conflict of opinion. Bury it, forget it and move on with your lives. I'm off to bed. Live for tomorrow.
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Is it just me or does it seems like this thread's only purpose is for Trashman to complain about getting in trouble for annoying people?
No seriously, what are you trying to accomplish, Trashman? You've already been unmonkeyed, you've already had your offensive title removed, and you're still complaining.
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Jeez people. It's only a minor conflict of opinion. Bury it, forget it and move on with your lives. I'm off to bed. Live for tomorrow.
^ Wisdom right there.
Words only hurt if you choose to let them. Choose not to.
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I think people should come to compromises - when a discussion between two or more community members with valid but yet different opinions comes to a stalemate it'd be mature, IMO, to accept all opinions as valid ones.
I don't get why my opinions are considered rubbish - maybe because I'm a bastard? :doubt:
I don't consider you opinions rubbish, nor do I have a problem with any way you express yourself. What does bug the heck out of me is the blue italic font you insist upon using. That's just me though. I find italics harder to read. Not that I have trouble reading it, but it's like reading 10 pt font instead of 12. Why make something harder to read when the it's just fine the way it is?
Is it just me or does it seems like this thread's only purpose is for Trashman to complain about getting in trouble for annoying people?
No seriously, what are you trying to accomplish, Trashman? You've already been unmonkeyed, you've already had your offensive title removed, and you're still complaining.
The thread's purpose as I understand it is to make clear why Trashman or other people are being monkeyed so that it can be avoided in future. Because it may come to the point where there's a separation of Trashman from HLP and that in my opinion would be a detriment to this community. Because Trashman is one of the biggest single contributors at the moment, at least in terms of modelling and campaigns. (one major campaign released, another one coming up, and a dozen+ models out). So before it comes to that point, some things should be resolved or at least explored, not just for Trashman but I think in terms of forum conduct and monkeying as a whole.
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TrashMan, as someone who doesn't have anything personally invested in this at all (other than getting slightly annoyed by all parties involved at seeing this issue surface all over the place), let me make one or two observations. Whether or not you realize it, I think that some of the content of your responses in this thread fits the exact pattern that keeps landing you in the same situation to begin with. You seem to have a rather defensive attitude in general, to the point where you individually break down and negate every single aspect of a criticism that someone levies against you. And therein lies the problem: by doing so, you ignore the fact that that's genuinely what people are taking away from your posts. You may genuinely not mean for some of your posts to come across as arrogant, or antagonistic, or accusatory (or alliterative)...but the fact remains that that's what we the readers see in them. Unless you're dealing with some sort of surrealistic symbolism, the primary import of the written word isn't what the author intended to convey...it's what is actually conveyed to the reader. If multiple people are genuinely seeing arrogance and sarcasm in your posting style, then arrogance and sarcasm are being conveyed, whether or not you're trying to convey them. It's at that point that you have to stop and ask yourself how you can tweak your posts so that those who read them don't get these false ideas from them.
Another thing I've noticed about your posting habits is that, whenever someone (justifiably or not) levies criticism at you, you often immediately accuse them of having a similar flaw. No offense to you personally, but that's probably at the top of the "how to lose friends and antagonize people" list. There's an old scriptural standby that goes, "Physician, heal thyself;" what it means is that, instead of jumping up to point out the flaws in others, we must first take a good long look at ourselves to see if we aren't the ones who are flawed. Like I said above, if multiple people are accusing you of a certain flaw, it might be good to consider whether you might actually be exhibiting it, instead of trying to point it out in others. This all goes double when you do it against those in a position of power over you, such as the admins here. You may not entirely (or at all) agree with what they're accusing you of, but automatically accusing them of the same way is just going to land you into monkeydom once again. After all, criticizing your boss for always running late when he reprimands you for missing a deadline is a great way to get fired.
Remember, this is all just my own personal observations, nothing more. Take it or leave it.
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The thread was not about Galileo, it was about Conservapedia. The thread was meant to be a light-hearted laugh at the idiocy of fundamentalists. You may have wanted to discuss Galileo but that's the kind of disruptive behaviour that I'm on about. The thread wasn't about that. You were asked to stop. You didn't.
And then despite being told that was why you were monkeyed you kept coming back and posting on the topic as soon as you were unmonkeyed. Which simply resulted in you being monkeyed again.
Yes, the title of the thread was Conservapedia, and people were discussing articles found on it (totally inaccurate articles as a source of fun). My first post was a comment on the Galielo article (that someone mentioned before), in short, that I wouldn't dismiss different discription of historical event just like that. That post was completely on topic.
What followed was a series of agressive insults and my posts defending my position (and honor if you will), followed by even more agressive insults.
Post defining my position were off topic, I admitt - but so were all the posts that were insulting me.
You could have just split the thread. Instead you joined the insult wagon and banned me. Ok, banning me - all fine and dandy. It was within the forum rules for you to do so. but did anyone else who was also being off-topic (and in far less civilized manner I might add) get banned? No. Monkeyed? no. Warned? No.
you see, that's why I was mad about back then. For not allowing me do defend myself, while allowing others to spit on me (figuratively). For having double standards - since they were equally to blame for the de-railing.
No seriously, what are you trying to accomplish, Trashman? You've already been unmonkeyed, you've already had your offensive title removed, and you're still complaining.
More like explaining and brigning things into the light. Miscommunications and misunderstanding will continue if not analyzed and brought to attention. That was my goal.
You seem to have a rather defensive attitude in general, to the point where you individually break down and negate every single aspect of a criticism that someone levies against you. And therein lies the problem: by doing so, you ignore the fact that that's genuinely what people are taking away from your posts. You may genuinely not mean for some of your posts to come across as arrogant, or antagonistic, or accusatory (or alliterative)...but the fact remains that that's what we the readers see in them. Unless you're dealing with some sort of surrealistic symbolism, the primary import of the written word isn't what the author intended to convey...it's what is actually conveyed to the reader. If multiple people are genuinely seeing arrogance and sarcasm in your posting style, then arrogance and sarcasm are being conveyed, whether or not you're trying to convey them. It's at that point that you have to stop and ask yourself how you can tweak your posts so that those who read them don't get these false ideas from them.
Not every single aspect of criticims. I have my flaws and I make my mistakes. But where I see no mistake I won't be apologizing. I'll never take the blame for something I haven't done....ever...well, maybe it it served some higher purpose. ;7
But another question is - how many people have to get the wrong idea from someones post for it to really be the problem with the post, rather then with them? You say "multiple people". How many is that? I can tell you that the vast majority..no, scratch that - overwhelming majority - sees nothing wrong with my posts.
So should I try like crazy to change the way I post, just to satisfy a few people? Would you?
Now, you assumed I haven't gone over my posts after I was banned/monkied .. I did. I did deserve one or two of those. My word choice and self-control could have been better on few occasions. But I'll be damned if I deserved all the crap that's being placed at my feet.
Another thing I've noticed about your posting habits is that, whenever someone (justifiably or not) levies criticism at you, you often immediately accuse them of having a similar flaw. No offense to you personally, but that's probably at the top of the "how to lose friends and antagonize people" list. There's an old scriptural standby that goes, "Physician, heal thyself;" what it means is that, instead of jumping up to point out the flaws in others, we must first take a good long look at ourselves to see if we aren't the ones who are flawed. Like I said above, if multiple people are accusing you of a certain flaw, it might be good to consider whether you might actually be exhibiting it, instead of trying to point it out in others. This all goes double when you do it against those in a position of power over you, such as the admins here.
I never did claim I was a master orator that makes brilliant retorts when on the defensive. ;7
Sure, sometimes my defensive posts aren't as nicely put together as I would want, mostly cause they're typed fast in the heat of the moment. It happens when people get all flamey and throw insults. And you are right - I'm by nature a very defensive person, not offensive.
So it's not easy for me to resist defending myself when people call me names and bring my intelect/education/upbriging into question.
And while I do realise that it's not smart to criticize those in power, especially when I or the forum goers can't remove them from power, it was still the only course of action I saw as viable. Well, that or leaving the forums, but I haven't gotten tired of FS modding yet.
Anyway, the purpose of this thread has been fulfilled. I shan't bore you with my rants any longer.
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Actually, before this goes any further, do you feel you deserved any of the monkeyings you got?
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But another question is - how many people have to get the wrong idea from someones post for it to really be the problem with the post, rather then with them? You say "multiple people". How many is that? I can tell you that the vast majority..no, scratch that - overwhelming majority - sees nothing wrong with my posts.
Some would argue that, by the strictest definition, even one person misunderstanding what you are saying means that you have failed in communicating with them. I've always liked the teacher's viewpoint myself: if you don't understand something, it means that I haven't explained it well enough for you, and I'll keep on trying until I either succeed or decide that you're a functional vegetable. :p In any case, in this particular example, you know that you have multiple admins, along with several regular posters, who are taking these sort of sentiments away from your posts. At least from where I'm sitting, when you get to that point, the likelihood that every single one of those people has some sort of reading deficiency is rather low. One item that may add to this effect is the fact that your previous monkeyings have given you somewhat of a negative reputation, meaning that people may be even more attuned to negative elements in your posts than they would be in your average poster's.
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Actually, before this goes any further, do you feel you deserved any of the monkeyings you got?
Read the second part of my previous post. You must have missed the part when I said I did. I never said I was always nice and calm ;)
I don't have many buttons one can push, and one usually has to push really hard... but when they are pushed..results are REALLY ugly.
Some would argue that, by the strictest definition, even one person misunderstanding what you are saying means that you have failed in communicating with them. I've always liked the teacher's viewpoint myself: if you don't understand something, it means that I haven't explained it well enough for you, and I'll keep on trying until I either succeed or decide that you're a functional vegetable. In any case, in this particular example, you know that you have multiple admins, along with several regular posters, who are taking these sort of sentiments away from your posts. At least from where I'm sitting, when you get to that point, the likelihood that every single one of those people has some sort of reading deficiency is rather low. One item that may add to this effect is the fact that your previous monkeyings have given you somewhat of a negative reputation, meaning that people may be even more attuned to negative elements in your posts than they would be in your average poster's.
Uuu.....good post. :D
In the land of perfect I probably would have both the will and time and skill to pull that off. Alas, being misunderstood by someone, somewhere is unfortuantely a unavoidable effect of being human. I just have the bad luck of really bad time and place for those misunderstandings to happen. :p
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Is it just me or does it seems like this thread's only purpose is for Trashman to complain about getting in trouble for annoying people?
No seriously, what are you trying to accomplish, Trashman? You've already been unmonkeyed, you've already had your offensive title removed, and you're still complaining.
The thread's purpose as I understand it is to make clear why Trashman or other people are being monkeyed so that it can be avoided in future. Because it may come to the point where there's a separation of Trashman from HLP and that in my opinion would be a detriment to this community. Because Trashman is one of the biggest single contributors at the moment, at least in terms of modelling and campaigns. (one major campaign released, another one coming up, and a dozen+ models out). So before it comes to that point, some things should be resolved or at least explored, not just for Trashman but I think in terms of forum conduct and monkeying as a whole.
That's a fair point; but as far as I can tell, the only person here who doesn't know why Trashman was monkeyed is Trashman himself.
The only people I've ever seen monkeyed are Blackdove, Kazan, and Trashman. I can understand perfectly whe Blackdove and Trashman got monkeyed, but I wasn't here for when Kazan got monkeyed. Apparently, he got a bit overexcited during a debate about circumcision or something. From what I've seen of him when he's debated in HL/GD since being unmonkeyed, he's fine now.
The only people who have recurring problems are those who are denying that there are problems.
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Or those, like BlackDove, who actively court monkeying. And I gotta say, as much as BlackDove deserves the monkeys, he's also pretty hilarious.
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The only people I've ever seen monkeyed are Blackdove, Kazan, and Trashman. I can understand perfectly whe Blackdove and Trashman got monkeyed, but I wasn't here for when Kazan got monkeyed. Apparently, he got a bit overexcited during a debate about circumcision or something. From what I've seen of him when he's debated in HL/GD since being unmonkeyed, he's fine now.
Mobius was monkeyed essentially concurrently with Trashman's last monkeying.
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The only people I've ever seen monkeyed are Blackdove, Kazan, and Trashman. I can understand perfectly whe Blackdove and Trashman got monkeyed, but I wasn't here for when Kazan got monkeyed. Apparently, he got a bit overexcited during a debate about circumcision or something. From what I've seen of him when he's debated in HL/GD since being unmonkeyed, he's fine now.
Mobius was monkeyed essentially concurrently with Trashman's last monkeying.
Okay then. Evidently, I didn't see that. On top of that, my point remains valid.
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I'd like to ask one of the admins - is it possible to get a title back?
After having one for so long, looking at my own posts makes me feel....naked.
put any old thing up there..doesn't even have to be nice, doesn't even have to make sense... As long as it's make of letters or numbers....oh yeah, various symbols work too
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Must..............get................power................to.. ................add.................titles ........... :(
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I'd like to ask one of the admins - is it possible to get a title back?
After having one for so long, looking at my own posts makes me feel....naked.
put any old thing up there..doesn't even have to be nice, doesn't even have to make sense... As long as it's make of letters or numbers....oh yeah, various symbols work too
:wtf:
k.
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I would have preferred "Any Old Thing" or something witty (I'm sure you could come up with something), but I did say anything, haven't I? :p
I will (have to) do.
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"A fifth machine appeared on the far bank it raised itself to full hight, flourished the funnel high in the air and the ghostly terrible heat ray struck the town. As it struck all five machines exalted emitting deafening howls which rolled like thunder... UALUEALUEUALE!!!!!!!! UALUEALUEUALE!!!!!!!!"
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"A fifth machine appeared on the far bank it raised itself to full hight, flourished the funnel high in the air and the ghostly terrible heat ray struck the town. As it struck all five machines exalted emitting deafening howls which rolled like thunder... UALUEALUEUALE!!!!!!!! UALUEALUEUALE!!!!!!!!"
I need to comment be can only come up with.......................
:wakka:
:lol:
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That's awesome, Starslayer.
For those not in the know, I think he's referencing this. (http://ualuealuealeualemirror.ytmnd.com/)
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Slayer is referencing this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43dAJhUJgmU). Trashman's title on the other hand.....
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Slayer is referencing this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43dAJhUJgmU). Trashman's title on the other hand.....
Sweet. I wanna see that.
@Trashman, Just accept it. You've become the Kenny of HLP, Monkeyed every month < This comment is based on what i've heard about you being repeatedly monkeyed.
BTW i prefer Trashmans old custom title.
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:lol: @ kenny reference.
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Oh my God! They banned TrashMan!
You admins!
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So, how long do you reckon before "HLP Kenny" becomes Trashman's new custom title?
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That's awesome, Starslayer.
For those not in the know, I think he's referencing this. (http://ualuealuealeualemirror.ytmnd.com/)
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Oh my God, I'm in tears.
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So, how long do you reckon before "HLP Kenny" becomes Trashman's new custom title?
eternity?
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Hey, my title's changed too!
...and so has my Personal Message...and my Signature...and... :nervous:
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Hint hint...
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That signature was getting rather long anyway too.
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You mean mine, kara? Is it still too long? Should I shorten it? :confused:
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It is considerably longer than the majority of sigs around here.
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Slayer is referencing this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43dAJhUJgmU). Trashman's title on the other hand.....
... Holy mother. I've been playing the game based on that musical.
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Um, are you sure the game isn't based on the novel the musical is based on?
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Um, are you sure the game isn't based on the novel the musical is based on?
The disc cover says "Jeff Wayne's The War of the Worlds". It even has the exact same music. I ought to recognize it; t'was one of the earliest games I've ever played, and only managed to complete it once after SIX MONTHS of playing it, when I was about 9.
Frak, I didn't realise the musical was for freaking epic.
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Whoa! Cool.
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Yeah. The game was based on the musical. Not played it but I've generally heard good things about it. The musical is great though. Wish I could see it live though. :) Surprised you hadn't heard of it though Stormkeeper, Eve of the War (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aR_Dt-RovCY) and Thunderchild (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hw7G4MIr5sE) are fairly well known in Sci-fi circles.
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this thread is still living?????
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No. You imagined it.
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Yeah. The game was based on the musical. Not played it but I've generally heard good things about it. The musical is great though. Wish I could see it live though. :) Surprised you hadn't heard of it though Stormkeeper, Eve of the War (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aR_Dt-RovCY) and Thunderchild (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hw7G4MIr5sE) are fairly well known in Sci-fi circles.
Well, the game is pretty faithful to the musical. The fighting machines in game are more or less exact replicas. The Ironclads too. As for the music, I was pretty young at that time. I remembered loving the music during the game, but being 9, I didn't have much of an intrest in musicals, even one that spawned a game. Now, I'm pretty damn intrested in hunting down a copy ...
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Umm...split? :nervous:
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Is anyone still talking about the original subject? :D
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Not for a long while yet :lol:
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Is anyone still talking about the original subject? :D
TrashMan will probably come back here and try...
(don't hurt me please)
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I'll have a go.
Of course moderation here is unfair and biased. People on HLP have always been harassed because people didn't like them, or banned because they asked the wrong question at the wrong time and somebody needed to make an example of someone. It pisses me off all the time when I see it happen.
But, nobody is forcing you to be here. You can always leave and go to one of the 10 or 20 other forums where you get along great with the people.
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Actually if people think the moderating is unfair I'd rather they pointed it out rather than sulking about it or leaving.
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Uhm, no offense, but isn't that kindof why this thread was started?
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Yep. But it was kinda dead till WMC posted. So I was assuming everything was okay now. :p
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Actually if people think the moderating is unfair I'd rather they pointed it out rather than sulking about it or leaving.
Point taken. I'll be more verbose in the future. :)
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Please make sure that Goober knows it or he may misenterpret our actions... :nervous:
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Please make sure that Goober knows it or he may misenterpret our actions... :nervous:
You know, insulting Goober all the time is just asking for it.
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Doing things Goober may not like doesn't necessarily mean insulting him, though...
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Doing things Goober may not like doesn't necessarily mean insulting him, though...
Agreed. Spamming is not exactly insulting him, right?
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Just dropping by to ask one small question:
Any specific reason my just finished campaign is sorta ignored, while whenever there's even a smallest update in some campaign (like a low quality teaser video) it gets a highlight instantly?
Speaking of which, I think you missed highlighting Operations too. It's a good campaign.
EDIT: No, wait. My bad. you did highlight it :o
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I wouldn't take it personally. Ghost Revenants, for example, was highlighted a couple of months after its release. Apparently just because no one with powers noticed the release.
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I'm not taking it personally. I'm just curious.
You said a couple of months? Wow..talk about being late to the party :P You sure about that?
EDIT: holy schitzel, you're right! Forget I said anything! :lol:
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I'd imagine the one issue with your campaign is that you initially released it as a beta that immediately generated a flood of bug reports. It doesn't make a lot of sense to highlight a campaign that may not even be playable. If, as you say, you've managed to track down all of the bugs, I'm sure that someone will get around to highlighting it soon.
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I released it as a Beta for a few people to bugtest for me, given that I'm only one man.
The Beta was never ment to be a full release for the general public - I wrote that in the first post. ;)
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Fair point indeed. It's all good now right? :)
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The Beta was never ment to be a full release for the general public - I wrote that in the first post. ;)
Well that gives me an excuse not to highlight it now (I'll do so once it's properly released) but the main reason was simply that I don't check the Missions and Campaigns forum that often and it's easy to miss a new release if it has several pages already when I first see it.
Operations is undergoing similar multiplayer testing so I'm not going to highlight it until Vidmaster is happy with it.
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Fair enough.
I did use the Beta thread and just re-named it.
It's playable now, so you cant highlight it if you want. Or you can wait a bit more to see if some more game-breaking bugs pop up :p (but I don't think they will)
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I did use the Beta thread and just re-named it.
That's shooting yourself in the foot IMHO. A new release, or an "official" (vs. "beta") release, deserves its own thread. If people open the thread and see the first few posts filled with bug reports and complaints, they're not likely to try the campaign for themselves.
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Point taken.. I'll open a new thread then. And re-name the old one back
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Well, in my opinion you should hire a few testers and continue your bug hunt in a private forum or via e-mail...having stuff like that here on HLP could confuse people(no offense, though). You can always use PMs, IM programs and/or e-mails. :)