Hard Light Productions Forums
Site Management => Site Support / Feedback => Topic started by: MR_T3D on November 20, 2008, 03:20:35 pm
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I think they should, as many of them are raather intelligent, and the forum does not have "spam threads" boosting post count.
PLUS nearly a third of my posts nowadays are there
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They shouldn't count because they have nothing to do with FreeSpace and/or Hard Light.
This has been discussed before and the consequent solution turned out to be a very reasonable one.
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Nay, because I can't be arsed with the post count anyway. Well, apart from upping my level on the HLP cards.
(Psst. The first option should actually be "Yea", if you wanted to have a "Yea or Nay" poll.)
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Where's the required third option?
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Not voting until I see Snuffleupagus.
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Poll removed. HLP is not a democracy. If you want a change in policy, you're going to have to put together a well-reasoned argument to support your position.
Anyway, Mobius summed it up. Posts do not count in General Discussion because postcount is supposed to be a (admittedly imprecise) measure of your contributions to the community. Posts in General Discussion, although they can be interesting and often lead to lively discussions, do not contribute mods, expertise, or other FreeSpace content.
That gives me an idea. It might be interesting to institute a policy whereby posts in the internal forums count double...
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Don't you think that would encourage non-FreeSpace contribution where it wouldn't be needed? I'm pretty happy with the current system but i'm just a 1st LT you're the Brigadier. (HLP rank equivalent ;) )
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What is HLP then? Military Dictatorship?
Anyway, I'd have to disagree with the double-post-count from internal forums, because not all HLPers have their mods hosted here, and not everyone can get them hosted here. That way not every FS modder/contributor can "advance" as fast as others.
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I think Goober's "HLP is not a democracy" shouldn't be considered an arrogant claim or something like that, Shadow. It's the truth - Admins decide and community members are strongly encouraged to accept their decisions. Had HLP been a democracy there would have been a wide usage of pictures in signatures, avatars and crap like that...
Also, I wouldn't like any kind of double post count for private forums(despite being one of the top posters in private forums, I guess). It doesn't make sense to me...what I would find acceptable instead are badges for community members working on projects hosted on GW and SG(Earth Defense, Shadows of Lylat, Beyond the Red Line, Transcend, etc. etc.), they would be fair.
IMO the current post count system is working fine and people don't spam in General Discussion as they did before. I think the same policy should be extended to all off-topic boards.
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Come to think of it, why do we have visible post counts period?
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It's a visual gauge of experience in the FreeSpace field. Although it's not totally accurate.
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It's a visual gauge of experience in the FreeSpace field. Although it's not totally accurate.
Why isn't it accurate?
Goober explained about the entire posts thing.
And yea, Mobius, I agree with that. Just that HLP still seems like a dictatorship. And, you forgot to mention ASW :P
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Accuracy wise, in the old days someone who spent their entre e-life in GD with a high post count could give out inaccurate advise. I'm guilty of telling a particular newbie when asked the classic "how do i add a ship in fred?" question. . . .that pressing alt+f4 would do it. Thankfully i'm less of a git now.
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And yea, Mobius, I agree with that. Just that HLP still seems like a dictatorship. And, you forgot to mention ASW :P
I find "dictatorship" a very bad word if used to describe the Administration of HLP. There are many Administrators who are mature enough to handle the forums and run the site. They've all accomplished a lot so no, they should be pointed out as "dictators".
Also, ASW is a newly born project...you need time and achievements to turn it into a "badass" mod. :nod:
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on the subject of avators i think it would be good if we could all have them (not just admin,mods etc) maybe they could be controlled by admin etc or maybe im just confused and i cant put up the avator i want .......it would be good to see these then maybe within multiplayer we could recreate the squad wars possibility , and i think this post should count because it is free space related ......
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No, only Administrators should have avatars. I can only imagine how crappy HLP would be if virtually anyone could use avatars... :ick:
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Dictatorship doesn't necessarily mean a bad leadership :p
And ASW is almost a year old. Oh, you just wait!
No avatars though. At first I was against the no-avatars thing, but now I think it's a good idea only for admins to have avatars.
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Postcount matters not. Look at me. Judge me by my postcount, do you? Hmm? Hmm.
And well you should not. For my ally is the content of the posts, and a powerful ally it is.
As far as what comes to democracy/dictatorship thing. You can't describe internet message boards by that kind of classification. First and foremost you have to remember that the admins pay for all this - they are occasionally supported by donations, but in the baseline they pay for our fun. Therefore they cannot be expected to yield the control of their board to the masses. That would be totally unfair and silly and it would likely end up in a chaos. Anarchy wouldn't work for very long and democracy wouldn't work well in this kind of setting anyway due to practical reasons. Who would be there to count votes? Who would eliminate alt-nicks distorting voting results?
The way I see it, HLP is a gift that keeps on giving. A gift, not a civic right or something that should be taken for granted. Sure, adminst should listen to the community members and in my opinion they are doing admirable job at that. But at the same time I don't think admins have any obligation to let the community dictate the modus operandi of the service they pay for and let us use for free.
Just accept that Hard Light Productions' social contract gives the admins all "legislatory" power and some exclusive "judicial" powers, while mods share some executive power with admins. Moving legislatory powers to the community would not work because of the aforementioned practical issues and some more (like the fact that the admins are responsible of the legality of the stuff going on in their forums, so demanding they relinquish control over to the masses is rather impossible in that sense as well).
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Judging from post count, I'd look like a super-veteran next to most (if not all) of the non-admin/moderator members around here. Which I'm not...
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No, only Administrators should have avatars. I can only imagine how crappy HLP would be if virtually anyone could use avatars... :ick:
Why? How do avatars make a forum crappier? One can always limit their size and such, but avatars are a nice touch... a little thing to personalize and help ID a poster by a glance. I know when sometimes I'm going over topics on another forums, that avatars help me ID people almost instantly. Takes a bit longer wihout em.
anyway, what was the reason for no avatars again? I'm closed off in my own little world so I forgot.
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They'd end up badly and lead to the creation of threads like "What is your avatar about?" and countless "Help me create an avatar" or worse, "Create an avatar for me". I would personally ask to combine the 4 pics attached to this post:
- Mobius logo(what did you expect from me?);
- Phoenix (I have been loving that pic for nearly 10 years, I can't exclude it from my avatar...sorry Goober :));
- Italian flag(Yeah!);
- US flag(Another Yeah!);
The result? Uhm...waste of time? Although I may love the avatar I'd like to focus on FREDding...HLP is not the right place to use avatars.
Texturers and other modders would be more concerned about avatars than on hosted projects' stuff, which would be greatly pathetic. Read above - would you really like to see that kind of threads here on HLP? :rolleyes:
[attachment stolen by Slimey Goober]
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EDIT: What Mobius said. Also:
1) Witness the recent thread where people were arguing over images in signatures, signature length and content, etc. It's generally recognized that clamping down on out-of-control signatures is a Good ThingTM. And that's just text. Imagine having that same discussion in a board where everybody had an avatar.
2) An avatar provides a way to immediately identify a forum member as an admin. It says, in effect, "FYI - this member is someone who a) has been around for a while and is likely to know more about FreeSpace (and be more reliable) than someone chosen at random; and b) is responsible for enforcing the forum rules and whom you should try not to piss off."
3) Being an admin carries extra responsibility, and can sometimes be more frustrating, than being an average member. They carry the burden of fixing things when they go wrong, and they are the lenders of last resort when it comes to forum finances. So as partial compensation, we like to reserve certain perks especially for ourselves. Custom avatars are one such perk. :D
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To be honest, I think currently used avatars could be bigger...there's enough space under nicknames, post count and badges to enlarge them a bit, I guess...
Just an idea...
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They'd end up badly and lead to the creation of threads like "What is your avatar about?" and countless "Help me create an avatar" or worse, "Create an avatar for me".
Haven't really noticed such threads in any of the other forums.
Even if one opens them, are threads like that so terrible compared to some we already have? We talk about all kind of crazy, stupid and whuimsical stuff. Heck, I bet avatrs would have more to do with FS than most topics out there :P
Texturers and other modders would be more concerned about avatars than on hosted projects' stuff, which would be greatly pathetic. Read above - would you really like to see that kind of threads here on HLP? :rolleyes:[/mobius]
A 60x60 avatar? I can make in in 10 minutes. Yeah...I'm gonna be soooo buys doing aht that I will never get to work on other stuff. Aren't you putting too much importance on the avatars?
BY Goobber50002
An avatar provides a way to immediately identify a forum member as an admin. It says, in effect, "FYI - this member is someone who a) has been around for a while and is likely to know more about FreeSpace (and be more reliable) than someone chosen at random; and b) is responsible for enforcing the forum rules and whom you should try not to piss off."
So use big avatars and allow only small ones for other forum members. ;7
You can get rid of the project flags if you're worried about clutter.
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So you want to allow avatars for everyone, but take away the project badges that people have actually worked for? I respectfully disagree. I like it just the way it is now. It keeps the focus where the focus ought to be, namely on the projects that are in development rather than on self promovation, flashiness and/or spam.
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And badges aren't self-promotion?
The way I see it, only few people have any benefit from badges, since most forums members don't work on many project, or not on projects hosted here (badges are only for those. If you have a project hosted elsewhere, no badge). Avatars is something everyone can use.
Either way, I'm not advocating the removal of badges. I said that if you could have only one, I'd rather have avatars.
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The way I see it, only few people have any benefit from badges, since most forums members don't work on many project
Thus making badges an incentive to acquire the requisite skills and contribute instead of just spending 5 minutes in photoshop and making an avatar. And thereby helping out the community as a whole.
or not on projects hosted here (badges are only for those. If you have a project hosted elsewhere, no badge)
No badge here, you mean. Projects hosted on GW, for example, have their own badges. On GW. Which is as it should be.
Avatars is something everyone can use
Whether or not they've ever done the slightest thing to contribute to the community, yes.
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Badges are hardly an incentive.
If someone starts to work on a project only to get a badge...sad, sad fellow I'd say.
Knowing you did good work is it's own reward.
Whether or not they've ever done the slightest thing to contribute to the community, yes.
Other than being members, talking and advertising it to their friends, giving suggestions and feedback on stuff?
I guess not. Does it matter?
Does every feature most other forums have for granted have to be weighed and given to only "special" people? What happened to good ol' fashioned giving just cause you can? Christmas spirit and all that jazz?
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What happened to good ol' fashioned giving just cause you can?
The state of signatures before restrictions were enforced should be more than enough answer to why this just doesn't work.
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TrashMan, you're falling into your own combative habits again. You're running off at the mouth and posting without any self-discipline whatsoever. Furthermore, you managed to misunderstand practically everything you responded to.
I am going to make one post containing a point-by-point rebuttal to your litany of complaints. After this post, if you can ask thoughtful, intelligent, and non-provocatory questions, you may ask away. But if you continue to be combative and argue as if you're entitled to everything you ask for, I will monkey you for one week.
Now then:
They'd end up badly and lead to the creation of threads like "What is your avatar about?" and countless "Help me create an avatar" or worse, "Create an avatar for me".
Haven't really noticed such threads in any of the other forums.
The nature of the internet dictates that such threads would start appearing very quickly, and in very many places.
Even if one opens them, are threads like that so terrible compared to some we already have?
Forum policy encourages the admins and moderators to maintain discipline. So, yes. Pointless threads should be kept to a minimum.
Texturers and other modders would be more concerned about avatars than on hosted projects' stuff, which would be greatly pathetic. Read above - would you really like to see that kind of threads here on HLP? :rolleyes:
A 60x60 avatar? I can make in in 10 minutes. Yeah...I'm gonna be soooo buys doing aht that I will never get to work on other stuff. Aren't you putting too much importance on the avatars?
You completely misunderstood Mobius's point. The length of time required to create an avatar, or a badge, is irrelevant. Mobius meant that avatars would be a big distraction. People should not focus on avatars, which are superficial, but on hosted project stuff, which is the real meat and potatoes of what HLP is all about.
So use big avatars and allow only small ones for other forum members. ;7
You can get rid of the project flags if you're worried about clutter.
Again, you completely misunderstood the point. Clutter has nothing to do with it. Having an avatar is a privilege, one which the admins reserve for themselves.
The way I see it, only few people have any benefit from badges, since most forums members don't work on many project, or not on projects hosted here (badges are only for those. If you have a project hosted elsewhere, no badge). Avatars is something everyone can use.
That is the freaking point. Badges are a reward for project participation. They represent hard work and dedication. We are not going to have a welfare program where everyone gets a shiny image just so they can feel good about themselves. That renders the avatar or badge utterly meaningless.
Badges are hardly an incentive.
If someone starts to work on a project only to get a badge...sad, sad fellow I'd say.
Knowing you did good work is it's own reward.
Badges are a symbol. Just like an Olympic medal is a symbol. It would be much easier and cheaper to go to your favorite goldsmith and ask him to cast a medallion for you. But people compete in the Olympics because of what a gold medal represents.
In the same way, badges represent project participation. And if a member fails to participate, then project leaders can (and have) ask the admins to remove badges.
Does every feature most other forums have for granted have to be weighed and given to only "special" people? What happened to good ol' fashioned giving just cause you can? Christmas spirit and all that jazz?
The admins are not obligated to do a ruddy thing. You're acting like you're entitled to what you're asking for. Stop being such a spoiled brat.
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To be honest, I don't feel like adding user-defined avatars would necessarily cause any sort of extended to-do about them, at least after the initial newness wore off. I'm a member of a couple of Descent-related forums with user-uploaded avatars limited to 64x64, and no one even mentions them outside of posts in a dedicated testing forum. They're just a small way of adding a bit of personality to a post and making a particular user's posts more recognizable (particularly if said user, like me, uses the same avatar for seven years and counting :p).
That being said, I've always thought that the admin/project-badge only policy works well for this particular forum, as they help to emphasize the focus on modding that this community is largely built upon. I've certainly never minded not having one while I've been here (though that little gold star which seems to have disappeared without my notice was admittedly fun :p).
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If i want to blow my avatar trumpet that badly i'll post on gamewarden. . .
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TrashMan, you're falling into your own combative habits again. You're running off at the mouth and posting without any self-discipline whatsoever. Furthermore, you managed to misunderstand practically everything you responded to.
I am going to make one post containing a point-by-point rebuttal to your litany of complaints. After this post, if you can ask thoughtful, intelligent, and non-provocatory questions, you may ask away. But if you continue to be combative and argue as if you're entitled to everything you ask for, I will monkey you for one week.
I'm nothing of a sort. Funny how you manage to misunderstand me so often.
I'm not advocating the removal of badges. I like em. I was just saying "what if". Can't a man wonder about stuff without being mauled around here?
Now then:
You completely misunderstood Mobius's point. The length of time required to create an avatar, or a badge, is irrelevant. Mobius meant that avatars would be a big distraction. People should not focus on avatars, which are superficial, but on hosted project stuff, which is the real meat and potatoes of what HLP is all about.
Never distracted me from anything. Nor anyone else I know, and I'm a regular on a dozen forums that have various modding projects, or pure game projects.
Not to sound offensive, but just how easily do you think people are distracted? Heck, I'd say you're insulting the intelligence of modders who come here.
Again, you completely misunderstood the point. Clutter has nothing to do with it. Having an avatar is a privilege, one which the admins reserve for themselves.
And having BIG shiny avatars compared to tiny ones would also be one. Your point?
Or are you saying that having big shiny avatars doesn't also serve in the ego fueling capacitiy. You can't deny that they do, at least in small part.
Does every feature most other forums have for granted have to be weighed and given to only "special" people? What happened to good ol' fashioned giving just cause you can? Christmas spirit and all that jazz?
The admins are not obligated to do a ruddy thing. You're acting like you're entitled to what you're asking for. Stop being such a spoiled brat.
I'm not asking for anything myself.
I'm discussing. WONDERING... ASKING... you might want to stop acting like a inquisitor.
Whatever.
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I'm honestly so curious, TrashMan, as to why it's important to you personally to have such things as post counts and avatars on forums in the first place, having been someone who grew up posting and utilizing Bulletin Board Services (BBS) and Usenet. Your argument is largely based upon two things:
- Other forums have had the features you've noted.
- You want the features you've noted.
Given that forums are supposed to be based upon the community and not the individual, your arguments don't even hold merit unless you can somehow substantiate and explain how the features you require would dramatically strengthen, build, and draw this community closer together. At this point, you have not done that, whereas Goober has presented a very admirable (heck, I'm a new forumkin here, an old veteran of ForumPlanet, HomeLAN, and many other large gaming communities...and I actually like his ideas) and well-thought out arguments for why his system works towards building the community.
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It's not important. Sure, avatars would be nice, but that's it. Nice.
Not a must-have, not needed. I don't have an avatars of all the forums I'm on (for other reason tough).
So, no, it's not personally important to me. It's just the so negative attitude I don't like.
As for arguments. Would avatars dramatically strengthen, build, and draw this community closer together? No.
Would they do the opposite? No.
Does the lack of avatars make the community "stronger"? I've seen no evidence to point that way.
Seriously, you're SERIOUSLY overestimating the importance and impact of avatars.
It's just a tiny image for God's sake, not a realm-shaking revolutionary flame.
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how about just allowing squad avators that way ppl will be more involved in the multiplayer and advancement of the game ....
these avators can only be ok'd by the squad leaders (admin, mod) and there fore you still gain control over content......
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Oh Gawd. How many times have we had this discussion? I figure every, what, 2-3 years? When a new batch of newbs have graduated into becoming regular members and they suddenly notice they don't have avatars. This is HLP. Other forums have Avatars. HLP doesn't. Other Forums have Image Sigs. HLP doesn't. OTher forums have insane spammers, ridiculous pointless clutter and a whole load of crap to wade through. HLP doesn't.
I like it this way. It's worked this way for the better part of a decade. It's not going to change. Deal.
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OTher forums have insane spammers, ridiculous pointless clutter and a whole load of crap to wade through. HLP doesn't.
You sure about this? ;7
I like it this way. It's worked this way for the better part of a decade. It's not going to change. Deal.
But...but.. Obama promised us change!
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OTher forums have insane spammers, ridiculous pointless clutter and a whole load of crap to wade through. HLP doesn't.
You sure about this? ;7
On the off chance, let's say that this is actually true. Now should the admins say to themselves "There's already spam here. I guess a little more couldn't hurt.", or should they say to themselves "There's already spam here. What can I do to stop that?". And now let's leave admins out of this completely. Does the fact that there is spam here make it okay for there to be avatars? Does the fact that a murderer killed one person make it okay for him to kill another?
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Let me get this straight...you're equating avatars with child murder? :wtf:
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Note to self: Never use analogies when talking to TrashMan.
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Note to self: Never use REALLY BAD analogies when talking to TrashMan.
Fixed
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Thanks TrashMan, that's what I was waiting for. You're now monkeyed for one week.
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I don't know what's funnier, that Trash is monkeyed or all the people on IRC who are excited about it.
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Thanks TrashMan, that's what I was waiting for. You're now monkeyed for one week.
Yep. That was deliberately stupid. He wasn't even trying to understand TheSizzler's point and was even adding stuff (like the word child) to make it an even bigger strawman.
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yet another discussion ( discussion , to talk about a subject ) shot dead by the trashman vs the admin mods problem.....
i tried to make what i thought was a valid point squad logo avatar's and as far as i can see , reading the posts i never really got a reply except to say the world is flat its always been flat deal with it ,
i understand that the majority of my posts were followed by trashman so maybe that didn't help ...
but please can some one tell me how squad logos would be detrimental to hlp?
they show an interest and commitment in playing , and promoting the game, i spend as much time as possible bug testing new builds ( ok mainly multiplayer)
thanks anyway..., for reading
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Sorry about that. I did notice your post and I was going to post my objections but after reading Trash's posts I just walked away from the thread shaking my head and forgot to post them. :D
One basic problem with squad logos is that they could very quickly become a lot of work for the admins. Adding a logo isn't particularly fun. It does involve quite a few steps fiddling around with the behind the scenes server stuff. And as an admin I'd end up having to do that every time someone decided to start a squad (which could be reasonably often once we start getting them for TBP, WCS and Diaspora).
Secondly to give someone a badge means assigning them to a usergroup. Only the admins can do this. So that's a lot more work for the admins just to give someone a badge. I don't particularly want badge requests swamping out the important stuff. Nor do I want badge usergroups swamping out the important ones.
Finally, and most importantly although many of the multiplayer community do very good work promoting the game there are quite a few who only turn up to play (or at least there would be). Badges really should mean something or it devalues the project ones. If we ever get around to setting up a proper validation council for FS2 multiplayer I can see that deserving a badge. For much the same reason the Campaign Restoration team got one. But badges simply for playing the game? Nah. :)
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yay a real reply with a real argument thats great .......thankyou
things work better when trashman is monkey'd
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Purpose served,
*no image signatures,
*no avatars
*no squad logos
*no post additions in GD
:yes:
request lock..
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Purpose served,
*no image signatures,
*no avatars
*no squad logos
*no post additions in GD
:yes:
request lock..
Seconded.
Oh wait, I can't second things if this isn't a democracy. :nervous: :p
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It's a benevolent oligarchy. :D