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Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: TrashMan on November 24, 2008, 12:24:08 pm

Title: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: TrashMan on November 24, 2008, 12:24:08 pm
And it was about time. I wanted to see what all the fuss was about. Still not done watching it, but so far my impressions are as follows:

Interesting story, interesting characters, interesting dialogues. Definately trumps most shows out there.
The only gripe I have is design (ye gods, what moron designed the alliance cruiser???) and the setting background fluff .

Hunderds of years into the future and they're using M-16's?? Makes no sense.... Humanity trashed Earth and fled in a fleet of starships, then using the resources on those starships terraformed and colonized many worlds. Making a fleet of starships to flee Earth in first place = future. Terraforming worlds with limited resources = a difficult and long undertaking = a LOT more in the future. They have holographic billiard on every planet, but old sawed-off shutguns seem to be the most prominent weapon around.
And ... River..not exactly the highpoint of logic there.

Anyway, a very good show who's flaws can be easily overlooked by the good characters and story. :nod:
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: Nuclear1 on November 24, 2008, 12:35:53 pm
Firefly was meant to be a Western in space. The reasoning behind the outer planets having such low-tech weapons was the result of the civil war. Also, if you'll notice, the guns don't fire bullets--they do fire energy bursts, but they do resemble weapons from the Old West. The Alliance does use some fairly high-level technology though.

Also, IIRC, the design of the Alliance ships is intentional. It's supposed to illustrate the Alliance's ineffeciency.
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: StarSlayer on November 24, 2008, 12:40:30 pm
Wouldn't be Firefly with phasers  :P.  I know in the David Weber Honor Harrington series it's often postulated that their is some tech regression that occurs during colonization, if something goes wrong.  it's possible that the colonists suffered some setbacks when they reached the new system and had to build their way back up again.  Plus in general it takes place out in the sticks were everything is hardscrabble and dirt poor especially after a massive civil war that they lost.  The inner colonies are supposed to be the more progressive technological ones.  Plus slug throwers do the job handily.
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: TrashMan on November 24, 2008, 01:14:32 pm
Yup, good old slug-throwers are effective.

Still, it's like sending soldiers to fight in Iraq with muskets. 50 years old? K.. 100? oooooKaaaay.
200+ ??? now were' getting into weird territory.


Quote
Also, IIRC, the design of the Alliance ships is intentional. It's supposed to illustrate the Alliance's ineffeciency.

Which raises the question - how the hell could they have won with such deathtrap ship designs?
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: Nuclear1 on November 24, 2008, 01:18:33 pm
Because the Independents were even lower tech.
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: BloodEagle on November 24, 2008, 01:24:39 pm
I liked Firefly the first time I saw it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outlaw_Star).
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: General Battuta on November 24, 2008, 04:51:00 pm
I liked Firefly the first time I saw it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outlaw_Star).

Those don't look all that similar. Have you seen Firefly? It's not quite as good as neo-BSG (very different shows, granted), but it's a great time nonetheless.

The weapons in Firefly largely fire caseless ammunition, not energy rounds. But I do believe we see sonic weapons at least once in the series.
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: TrashMan on November 24, 2008, 05:12:34 pm
Wouldn't be Firefly with phasers  :P.  I know in the David Weber Honor Harrington series it's often postulated that their is some tech regression that occurs during colonization, if something goes wrong.  it's possible that the colonists suffered some setbacks when they reached the new system and had to build their way back up again.  Plus in general it takes place out in the sticks were everything is hardscrabble and dirt poor especially after a massive civil war that they lost.  The inner colonies are supposed to be the more progressive technological ones.  Plus slug throwers do the job handily.

Well, nothing here stated technological regression. Keep in mind, that terraforming Mars itself is something that would take 300 years at least, even with all of Earths resources. So terraforming a dozen planets with only limited resources would take a LOT more. So we're talking a whole LOT into the future.

I wouldn't find it strange that some rifles have similar designs to current ones, but old sawed-off shotguns with wooden handles? Oh, not to mention that alliance soldiers were carrying MP5's.
One could also wonder - what's the point of a dozen half-assed colonies with 2 small towns each? A single of those planets has room to spare. So why expand and form little dinky towns on barely terraformed planet X when you can just form a new town on a sparsely populated planet?
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: Herra Tohtori on November 24, 2008, 05:33:44 pm
Yup, good old slug-throwers are effective.

Still, it's like sending soldiers to fight in Iraq with muskets. 50 years old? K.. 100? oooooKaaaay.
200+ ??? now were' getting into weird territory.


Er, not really. I would be absolutely terrified of assaulting a fortified enemy position armed with an assault rifle such as RK-95 or some M-16 series variant, while the enemy would be wielding something like well preserved good quality Lee-Enfields (1895), Mosin Nagants (1981) (especially Finnish manufactured versions) or K98 Mauser (1898) rifles or equivalent stuff... Especially if the terrain were open, and if the enemy were well trained. Those old rifles pack quite a bit of punch. Muskets and equivalent are more like... 300 years old.

Situation would obviously change a bit if it were a prepared assault with an artillery/mortar strike to soften the enemy up and an armoured transport to escort us close enough that the larger fire power of assault rifles would start to make a difference.

The weapons aren't the only thing that dictates an outcome of an engagement, or battle, or a war. It would be very possible to organize effective military/militia units armed with 100-year-old weapons, even these days - and in the future that will be even easier since A. Kalashnikov's design will probably be eternal. The limitations of the weapons would dictate some tactics, but using their advantages it would be possible to fight and win a modernly armed and armoured infantry unit. You just need to remember that all warfare is based on deception, therefore as long as you can deceive the enemy you can win even with inferior weaponry or lesser numbers. Of course, the fact that modern infantry is supported by very accurate and effective intelligence system makes deception a lot harder than it used to be in, say, WW2, Korea or Vietnam. Nowaday one of the still effective ways to inflict damage to a vastly more powerful and better organized enemy would be roadside bombs and, if terrain allows, guerilla tactics... though satellites and drone planes would be a serious problem. But, as long as you could minimize the advantage that the enemy gains from better equipment and larger numbers, and maximize the advantages of your weaponry and mobility of small groups, things aren't ever written in stone.

Underhanded tactics like using civilians as human shields and resorting to terrorism aren't really any means of warfare in my books, though, but criminal acts. :ick:

Spoiler:
There was some work done on Earth that Was with laser weaponry - as demonstrated by the Lassiter gun, which is mostly a curiosity and antique.


edit: Also, talking about seeing modern day weaponry on tv series such as Firefly or Battlestar Galactica - yeah, it happens. It's more viable to get an assortment of replica guns than design all kinds of new weaponry; that usually leads to hand phaser/laser/twinkler guns that look like super soakers or toy lugers painted black. If you want to talk about unrealistic, how about the fact that Galactica crew uses modern day Earth weaponry. It doesn't need to be viewed as directly as that. Just view them as guns. Kinda like the fact that the characters in Lord of the Rings were actually talking Westron and Tolkien "translated" it to English, along with stuff like Hobbit names and so on... :p


Also, sawed off shotgun will probably remain forever the most effective close quarters firearm and it's ease of concealment will make it a continuous favourite of shady characters, just like Kalashnikov's design's brilliance will stay valid for as long as projectile weapons are used at all. :blah:
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: Ford Prefect on November 24, 2008, 06:17:16 pm
It's Joss Whedon-- style takes precedent. He's not trying to write predictive science fiction (and thank god because that's the easiest way to create trite bull****). If you get bogged down in the technical details of "Firefly", I think you're watching it with too pedantic an eye.
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: Flipside on November 24, 2008, 06:28:25 pm
Gotta agree with Ford here, the suspension of belief is vital, after all, if I looked at films such as Star Wars, Lord of The Rings, Wizard of Oz etc logically, they'd make no sense whatsoever :)
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: TrashMan on November 24, 2008, 06:55:27 pm

Er, not really. I would be absolutely terrified of assaulting a fortified enemy position armed with an assault rifle such as RK-95 or some M-16 series variant, while the enemy would be wielding something like well preserved good quality Lee-Enfields (1895), Mosin Nagants (1981) (especially Finnish manufactured versions) or K98 Mauser (1898) rifles or equivalent stuff... Especially if the terrain were open, and if the enemy were well trained. Those old rifles pack quite a bit of punch. Muskets and equivalent are more like... 300 years old.

Well yes. You point? Firefly is how far along into the future? I'd guess a minimum of 300 years, probably more.

I know I'm probably overanalyzing this, it's a nasty habit, but I can't help it.


Quote
The weapons aren't the only thing that dictates an outcome of an engagement, or battle, or a war. It would be very possible to organize effective military/militia units armed with 100-year-old weapons, even these days - and in the future that will be even easier since A. Kalashnikov's design will probably be eternal. The limitations of the weapons would dictate some tactics, but using their advantages it would be possible to fight and win a modernly armed and armoured infantry unit. You just need to remember that all warfare is based on deception, therefore as long as you can deceive the enemy you can win even with inferior weaponry or lesser numbers. Of course, the fact that modern infantry is supported by very accurate and effective intelligence system makes deception a lot harder than it used to be in, say, WW2, Korea or Vietnam. Nowaday one of the still effective ways to inflict damage to a vastly more powerful and better organized enemy would be roadside bombs and, if terrain allows, guerilla tactics... though satellites and drone planes would be a serious problem. But, as long as you could minimize the advantage that the enemy gains from better equipment and larger numbers, and maximize the advantages of your weaponry and mobility of small groups, things aren't ever written in stone.

I'm not talking about tactics here...Just equipment. Is there any military in the world today that uses 200 year old weapons? No.


Quote
Also, sawed off shotgun will probably remain forever the most effective close quarters firearm and it's ease of concealment will make it a continuous favourite of shady characters, just like Kalashnikov's design's brilliance will stay valid for as long as projectile weapons are used at all. :blah:

You really think so? Sawed-off shotguns are pretty old even now. And they usually have wooden body - that doesn't age very well.
Not to mention that old weapons can't stay competitive forever.
You really think a M-16 or AK-47 will be effective against body armor from 300 years in the future?

So yeah, they probably used current weaponry to cut costs - that still doesn't change the fact that it doesn't really look right.


Look, I'm just stating my observation here. No show is perfect. Some less then others. Firefly has some flaws.
That doesn't mean the show is bad in any way - I said before the flaws are rather minor.

As it is I like it more than the new BSG, B5 and DS9, VOY or ENT. So that basicely means it rocks.
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: Charismatic on November 27, 2008, 11:27:21 am
I love Firefly. And yeah their ships were like flying cities. Looked retarted but, their big. Which could have helped them win in a ship vs ship engagement.
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: General Battuta on November 27, 2008, 01:31:16 pm
The Alliance patrol cruisers seen in 'Firefly' are very different from the combat ships in 'Serenity', suggesting that maybe they're not really intended as mainline combat warships.
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: Dark Hunter on November 27, 2008, 05:41:32 pm
Yeah. They struck me more as gigantic mobile police stations than warships.
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: MR_T3D on November 27, 2008, 07:14:55 pm
gawd i love that show...


but 200 years ago, weapons that were 60 years old were faily different.

gradual invention such as cased rounds, automatic firing, were being invented, and i cannot think of much that would revolutionize LEATHAL weapons in the future, other than crazy lasers and such, but then we worry about battery levels ;7
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: colecampbell666 on November 27, 2008, 08:16:21 pm
IIRC, I read on the Firefly wiki a good theory. The colonist's weapons are old because there was a ban on new tech enacted, and old guns could be grandfathered in. The alliance is the only authority allowed to carry lasers and the like. It's possible.

I recently finished it (and Serenity as well) and I liked it a lot. It was very original, a good show all around.
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: Colonol Dekker on November 28, 2008, 06:39:02 am
Do reavers feature in Firelfly?

I'm afraid i've only seen serenity.
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: General Battuta on November 28, 2008, 09:15:00 am
Do reavers feature in Firelfly?

I'm afraid i've only seen serenity.

Yeah, they do.
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: Colonol Dekker on November 28, 2008, 09:30:07 am
Do they still have the Freakin huge ship?  ;7
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: TrashMan on November 28, 2008, 09:32:07 am
IIRC, I read on the Firefly wiki a good theory. The colonist's weapons are old because there was a ban on new tech enacted, and old guns could be grandfathered in. The alliance is the only authority allowed to carry lasers and the like. It's possible.

I still think it's too old. Remember, humans didn't leave Earth a year or two from now. They leave Earth after having invented FTL travel and constructed a massive fleet of starships. That's well into the future.
By that time, the M-16 would be severely outdated. But like I said...no biggie.
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: General Battuta on November 28, 2008, 10:08:37 am
Do they still have the Freakin huge ship?  ;7

You only actually see one Reaver ship, and it's relatively smaller.
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: Dark Hunter on November 28, 2008, 12:33:02 pm
They leave Earth after having invented FTL travel and constructed a massive fleet of starships. That's well into the future.

Actually, Whedon said that they don't have FTL travel. The original ships were multigenerational, and once in the new star system, they don't really need FTL travel... their ships need only travel at a fraction of lightspeed to make the time they take between planets/moons (several days or weeks) plausible.
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: TrashMan on November 28, 2008, 12:58:23 pm
That makes the travel take even longer then (and with it, pushed the time it's happening even further)
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: Shade on November 28, 2008, 01:01:33 pm
During which no R&D would have taken place as they were transport ships, not laboratories. Your point?
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: Herra Tohtori on November 28, 2008, 01:31:51 pm
That makes the travel take even longer then (and with it, pushed the time it's happening even further)

How much weapons developement do you see happening in confined space of an interstellar, transgenerational space ship? :nervous:

Regardless, the argument of modern day weapons becoming obsolete has some holes in it. Mainly the fact that modern designs will kill just as effectively in the future as they do now. There are certain limits to improving small arms' deadlyness. Personal body armor developement might improve, but then the Alliance did win the war... also, pretty much only the soldiers use body armor of the best quality. Civilians would not likely do so apart from some security company employees, and thus the older weapon designs would still be effective.

Metals and alloys dictate the maximum velocity of bullets from a certain gun - too much gunpowder and the gun will wear down much faster then it should, or might even split up or expand the barrel. The industrial capacities of the Firefly solar system, apart from alliance controlled planets, don't really seem up to the task of manufacturing much more than relatively simple, modern day weapons. Besides, apart from caseless rounds I don't see very many improvements to be done to small arms, and even that step wouldn't likely be that big a step in the effectiveness of the weapons...

When it comes to accessibility, most likely any Afghan or Pakistani village blacksmith can make you an AK-47 copy, so guns like that would be way easier to get on backwater planets (on alliance planets, guns would probably be more difficult to get if you weren't in the military/law enforcement (though that seems to be the same posse in Firefly).

minor details ahead...
Spoiler:
Jayne's Vera does have some sophisticated aiming electronics and stuff, but it's still a rifle when it comes down to basics. The Lassiter laser was a relic from the Earth that Was, which suggests that the Exodus from Earth either stopped that weapons developement branch, or it proved to be unfeasible compared to conventional small arms. I would wager the latter.
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: TrashMan on November 28, 2008, 03:07:31 pm
During which no R&D would have taken place as they were transport ships, not laboratories. Your point?

Yeah, but the year when the fleet of ships would depart Earth would be 2100 or something, not 2005.
Weapons like X8 or HKG416 would be considered as old and obsolete as a WW1 rifle is today.
Something like a AK-47 would be really, REALLY old.

It's not the matter of using old rifles. It's the question of how old - especially, since if there was war before Earth was left, there's bound to be s***loads of more advanced weapons available.
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: redsniper on November 28, 2008, 03:12:31 pm
The AK-47 is already old and is still very effective today. It's a good design and it could easily be around 100 years from now.
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: Mobius on November 28, 2008, 03:29:09 pm
Weapons evolve faster than humans so a weapon that is able to kill a human now could be used for ages. The bow is many thousand years old but it's still used...maybe not on battlefields(too much unconvenient), but it still has its uses in various forms of hunting. Sometimes killers rely on bows and such weapons - the fact that they're old design doesn't imply that they don't hurt.
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: Herra Tohtori on November 28, 2008, 03:46:47 pm
...There's bound to be s***loads of more advanced weapons available.


No, that's an assumption you're making based on a very possibly incorrect extrapolation of small arms developement to this day, into the future.

There's no way to really know how some certain branch of technology will advance, and at what speed - especially in a future like Firefly's universe, which most likely won't even happen.


There's actually two different assumptions: That there are more advanced weapons - better enough to make a maningful difference between performance - and that they would be available. Neither of these assumptions can be proven correct. The first is a problem because it assumes that there's something still to be developed in the basics of the small arms that makes it possible to achieve higher effectiveness - and I don't really seem how much more deadly small arms fire can ever be than it already is. It would require a lot stronger materials to construct stronger barrels, chambers and locks to achieve higher muzzle velocity by increasing the cartridge size and/or gunpowder amount and type.

Caseless rounds are probably going to be what peaks small arms developement for a long time, and their main advantage will be increased rate of fire and reduced price and weight of ammunition but as a disadvantage, they require a bit more complex weapons as far as I know. And the basic appearance of the weapons would stay much like it is now. Basic concept is same. Self-propelling rounds might be a next step, but again, more difficult construction -> less widespread distribution.

Tech developement is difficult to predict, but the way I see it, saying that small arms will advance to be significantly more effective from what they are now is like Roman gladiators saying that swords are going to be sooo much more better in 300 years. Sure, they designs changed but the basic premise stayed the same, it's a blade, how much more deadly can it be (in the hands of someone who knows their business). Sure, there were a lot of different stages in swords, different techniques (from cutting to stabbing to slashing to prying harnesses apart to light blades of the New era, and that's just the Western history of a sword in a nutshell) but the basic deadlyness of a sword was roughly the same ever since they moved from bronze to steel. Moving from bronze to steel in swords is kinda like moving from muzzle-loading firearms to cartridge based ammunition. Until something landbreaking comes along, I would predict that the basic effectiveness of small arms fire will stay roughly the same. You'd need to get something like vibroblade or light saber to make the premise of a sword more effective than it is - and something of similar magnnitude to improve small arms effectiveness in my opinion.

Mind you, there actually IS a weapon in Firefly that is ****loads more advanced than the conventional small arms used - in a way. But if I recall correctly, there was a reason why it never become widespread. I already mentioned about it in spoiler tags. It never managed to replace firearms, so there had to be some catch to it.

And talking about availability, the aforementioned weapon is one of it's kind as far as I remember. Might have been a few of them in existence, but the basic point is the same. Simple designs of modern day firearms are deadly and easy to manufacture compared to highly sophisticated weaponry, and no matter how much better the new designs were, the difference in lethality is going to be marginal at best as long as the premise of small arms stays the same, so cheap, replaceable, durable and deadly weapons like shotguns (sawed-off or not), handguns, rifles and simple assault rifles like the AK-47 basic design will stay effective enough to be worth using. Both the Alliance and especially the Browncoats would have benefited from cheap and easy mass production more than sophisticated designs that were somewhat more effective. And of course, civilian weaponry will always be more variable than military weaponry...

Also... what Mobius said. Arrows even penetrate body armour better than assault rifle rounds. Are they more or less effective? :p

But I think this is well enough of this tangent... :p
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: IceFire on November 28, 2008, 06:07:34 pm
I doubt Joss Whedon was too concerned with this.  Yes its the future but its also supposed to draw on some elements of Westerns and the whole Wild West.  Its a bit of both which sometimes confuses people but I think it works brilliantly.  So no doubt the look of the guns is intentional to the extreme.

But I do agree that I think we're at a point...and we've sort of been there since the 1930s or maybe earlier where small arms is about as basically developed as its going to be.  An M1 Garand would still kill someone just as effectively as an M-16 or G36 would today....fundamentally not much has changed.  The bullet sizes and types are basically the same, the velocities involved aren't drastically different, in some weapons not even the fire rate is that significantly different.  There's still a bullet, a chamber, some gunpowder, and the rest.  Whats changed is the refinement...now an assault rifle can very easily have range, accuracy, and fire rate all in one package.  Some rifles now can fire many thousands of rounds without jamming or needing to be cleaned.

So in the Firefly universe...maybe the guns are so good they are self cleaning and can fire reliably many millions of times.  I don't think lasers as a general use weapon was the right aesthetic for the show so this is what they went with.  Not impractical.  Its just that some of us grew up watching Star Trek and expecting the future to be full of phasers and not current conventional firearms.
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: karajorma on November 29, 2008, 05:29:34 am
The AK-47 is already old and is still very effective today. It's a good design and it could easily be around 100 years from now.

Well it's lasted more than 60 years as it is.
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on November 30, 2008, 02:46:50 am
      Remember that there's a wide technological shift between the so-called core planets and the out fringe planets. You say that oh, shotgun doesn't make sense. Well who's making it though? If it's made locally, on the outer worlds, then yeah it does make sense. Make what your technology allows for. If it's on the core worlds, then no it doesn't really. But then again in Firefly they have those crap energy guns on the core worlds as you'll see.
      And realistically slug throwers are the way to go. All these shows with energy weapons as the main weapon of choice are a pile of bull**** from what I've heard. And in terms of modern weapons. Well yeah, the AK-47 has more penetrating power than the M1 or M16 whatever it is. the AK-47 will shoot through a wall, it's VERY dependable, low maintenance, etcetera. The american guns are none of those things. The M16s of today have less range than the rifles used during WW2. And a lot of the rifles used during WW2 were the same rifles used during WW1 (same with the machine guns).

      And for Firefly, It's the same with the horses. People on the outer worlds ride horses because, where are they going to get fuel for their car? If you drop down fossil fuel burning vehicles, then you also need fossil fuels, etcetera. Drill for that, or ship it out. Instead, just drop down horses and they can eat the food.
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: IceFire on November 30, 2008, 10:15:12 am
AK-47 has more penetrating power because it has a larger bullet but it means that the ammunition is heavier.  And while allot has been written about the AK-47 and it being reliable...thats largely because it was designed to just fire.  Not well...but fire. It can be clogged with dust and sand or dirt and the idea is that it will still fire.  But it won't fire well under those conditions and its not nearly as accurate as other weapons.

The M16 has greater effective range than the M1.  Why do you say that they have less range?  Are you referring to the M4 perhaps?

I think the ideal rifle right now is either the FN SCAR or the G36.  Both are accurate and apparently quite reliable.
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: Herra Tohtori on November 30, 2008, 10:48:20 am
I think the ideal rifle right now is either the FN SCAR or the G36.  Both are accurate and apparently quite reliable.

Ideal depends on conditions.

On open terrain, smaller caliber rounds like 5.56 mm are better than 7.62 mm rounds because they fly faster and straighter in ideal conditions, so they are more accurate and have - as far as I know - larger effective range. However, in terrain cluttered with trees and other obstacles and where visibility is shorter, larger rounds tend to become the better option. Lightweight bullets are deflected by obstacles much more than heavier rounds, and when the range is smaller, the advantages from increased accuracy diminishes anyway. What comes to penetration and tissue damage, there are a lot of factors that are at work there, but as a rule of thumb thin bullet penetrates better than wide bullet, but heavy bullet penetrates deeper than a lightweight bullet, so it also depends on what the target material is.

Tissue damage is another factor where a lot of variables are at work. Basically, a faster round creates a cavity of expanding water vapour that causes way more damage than slower round. Then there's also the issue of bullets deforming and turning while in the body, which also can increase the damage caused. 7.62 mm full metal jackets tend to go straight through human torso, so the damage is limited to wound channel and immediate surroundings. Fast 5.56 mm and equivalent rounds blow up the tissue they hit.

As cheesy as it sounds, I'm of the opinion that Finnish RK-95 is perhaps the best assault rifle model when it comes to all-round performance, maintenance and production factors. It uses the exact same mechanism as AK-47, but the production standards and tweaks to the parts like sights make it much more accurate as well as reduce the recoil and weight. Apparently the Israelis thought the same when they based their Galil rifle on it. Of course, ideality to me implies ideal in Finnish conditions, which are not quite as enclosed as jungles of Vietnam, but still you rarely see past few hundred metres, apart from some arctic regions and bogs of course, but going through a bog with enemies possibly on the other side is not a smart move anyway... Urban warfare is of course a whole ballgame on it's own, with it's own special demands for weaponry and other equipment.

Of course the Russians do have high quality rifles based on the design as well, but they moved to 5.56 5.45 mm with the AK-47 while the Finnish RK's all use the 7.62x33 caliber rounds...
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: TrashMan on November 30, 2008, 10:54:24 am
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VHS_assault_rifle
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: General Battuta on November 30, 2008, 10:54:36 am
My vast experience playing STALKER suggests that the G36 is a superb rifle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VHS_assault_rifle

It superficially resembles the FAMAS? That is a FAMAS! Odd.
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on November 30, 2008, 12:38:44 pm
AK-47 has more penetrating power because it has a larger bullet but it means that the ammunition is heavier.  And while allot has been written about the AK-47 and it being reliable...thats largely because it was designed to just fire.  Not well...but fire. It can be clogged with dust and sand or dirt and the idea is that it will still fire.  But it won't fire well under those conditions and its not nearly as accurate as other weapons.

The M16 has greater effective range than the M1.  Why do you say that they have less range?  Are you referring to the M4 perhaps?

I think the ideal rifle right now is either the FN SCAR or the G36.  Both are accurate and apparently quite reliable.

     Yeah I dunno what rifle is what. All I heard was that modern infantry weapons don't have the range of decades-old guns because they're designed more as close-quarters sort of guns, to be fired in short bursts. But I know quite a few people who know a lot about nothing so maybe I heard that from one of those know-nothings types :D
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: Herra Tohtori on November 30, 2008, 01:44:40 pm
As a rule of thumb, all semi-automatic (self-loading) weapons use some of the cartridge's released energy for the loading action, which reduces the muzzle velocity ever so slightly. Also, on bolt action rifles the cartridge sits in the chamber somewhat more firmly, further increasing accuracy and efficiency as less gases escape that-away. The difference is not notable, though, for normal infantryman - but there's a reason why snipers used bolt action rifles and still do, although semi-automatic sniper rifles such as Dragunov are also used. The reason why modern assault riflers in general have lesser effective ranges is because of the smaller cartridges.

M1 Garand was one of the first self-loading rifles. It also used slightly smaller cartridge than Lee-Enfield, Mosin-Nagant and Karabinier K98. As a consequence, it's effective range was slightly lesser than with those other weapons. As a comparision, list of effective ranges of some weapons... (and theoretical range, whatever that is - someone seems to like adding that to Wikipedia articles)

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Weapon               eff. range

M1 Garand            457 m             
Lee-Enfield          914 m, theoretical range 1828 m
Mosin-Nagant         548 m, theoretical range 1828 m (Finnish variants had superior accuracy compared to Russian originals)
Karabinier K98       500 m with iron sights, +800 m with optics

AK-47                300-400 metres depending on quality of weapon and ammunition...
AK-74                500 metres according to some sources
M-16                 550 metres
RK-62                officially 300 metres, but I'd say that official number is a bit shy as far as accuracy goes.
RK-95                officially 300 metres.


Basically... Assault rifles that use small rounds with short cartridges (5.45x39 mm for AK-74, 5.56x45mm for M-16) gain a range comparative to WW2 rifles, which used large rounds and long cartridges (approximately 7.7x56 mm for Lee-Enfield, and pretty much same sizes for others). Assault rifles that use large rounds with short cartridges suffer somewhat in range, like the 7.62x39 cartridge used by AK-47 and RK rifles.

And, of course, the length of the barrel affects the muzzle velocity as well as accuracy by shortening the sights span. The longer the barrel, the longer the acceleration... to certain limits. That's why carbinized weapons typically have lower effective range than their full-fledged rifle counterparts.
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: Colonol Dekker on December 01, 2008, 12:53:35 pm
Nothing's ever guaranteed to hit 100% though ;) I'm happy with the Enfield L85A1 plus outrigger. If i could get any rifle for distance shooting, (120+)  purely based on what i've used, taking into account comfort and accuracy and ease of carriage. Then i'd take a Robar sl12. Only thing is, they're not that common and replacement parts would set me back a small fortune as it's quite a specialist purchase.
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: Mika on December 01, 2008, 03:27:31 pm
Regarding using rifles to shoot bullets at armor, I would guess it is more easier and cheaper to increase the penetration depth of the bullet than the protection depth of the armor. There aren't many mammals who would sport more than a thick hide. It is risky to generalize here, but evolution seems to have favored animals of our size that don't have built-in shields (at least so far). Probably has something to do with mobility.

Mika
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: General Battuta on December 01, 2008, 04:31:02 pm
Modern body armor isn't evolved, though. We can do a lot better than evolution, just because our solution search algorithms are far superior.
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: Herra Tohtori on December 01, 2008, 05:01:48 pm
We can do a lot better than evolution, just because our solution search algorithms are far superior.

No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive. ;)

Biological evolution is only "slow" because of long generations and the relatively low chances of positive mutations. Populations of fast-reproducing organisms evolve fast enough to evade vaccinations, develope rat poison resistance and otherwise keep the population alive. Also random factors like getting shot or run over by a car don't generally improve the bullet resistance of the population. ;7 However, widespread shootings might help a population to develope skills necessary for not getting shot (mainly, How Not To Be Seen and How To Get The First Shot), but not especially to survive bullet wounds any more than other wounds...

In theory, evolution is anything but inferior to other solution search algoirthms. But, for individual purposes during lifetime, other solutions are obviously needed since natural evolution only affects the species, not an individual. As far as the theory itself goes, evolution algorithms can actually solve some problems better and faster than traditional problem solving and design methods, since they can find combinations of optimal solutions amidst a mass of different choices based on relative performances of different designs.


Also, this thread is developing in rather unpredictable fashion. :lol:
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: General Battuta on December 01, 2008, 05:34:10 pm
We can do a lot better than evolution, just because our solution search algorithms are far superior.

No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive. ;)

Biological evolution is only "slow" because of long generations and the relatively low chances of positive mutations. Populations of fast-reproducing organisms evolve fast enough to evade vaccinations, develope rat poison resistance and otherwise keep the population alive. Also random factors like getting shot or run over by a car don't generally improve the bullet resistance of the population. ;7 However, widespread shootings might help a population to develope skills necessary for not getting shot (mainly, How Not To Be Seen and How To Get The First Shot), but not especially to survive bullet wounds any more than other wounds...

In theory, evolution is anything but inferior to other solution search algoirthms. But, for individual purposes during lifetime, other solutions are obviously needed since natural evolution only affects the species, not an individual. As far as the theory itself goes, evolution algorithms can actually solve some problems better and faster than traditional problem solving and design methods, since they can find combinations of optimal solutions amidst a mass of different choices based on relative performances of different designs.


Also, this thread is developing in rather unpredictable fashion. :lol:

Evolutionary algorithms definitely have their place, but in the end, they're greedy search algorithms, and that means they can only find local optimae. There's a reason we haven't evolved into careful custodians of the planetary ecosystem -- we have to use conscious planning for that.

I know what you're trying to say, but evolution is a clumsy and ineffective way of solving most problems.
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: TrashMan on December 01, 2008, 05:54:59 pm
Modern body armor isn't evolved, though. We can do a lot better than evolution, just because our solution search algorithms are far superior.

It hasn't? you haven't been keeping up, have you?

http://www.pinnaclearmor.com/body-armor/dragon-skin.php

Check the Discovery Channel videos at the bottom.
AK-47, M-16.....even a friggin GRANADE didn't penetrate.
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: Herra Tohtori on December 01, 2008, 06:15:56 pm
Evolutionary algorithms definitely have their place, but in the end, they're greedy search algorithms, and that means they can only find local optimae. There's a reason we haven't evolved into careful custodians of the planetary ecosystem -- we have to use conscious planning for that.

Yeah, true. They explore all possibilities, of which only very small fraction has ever any chance of working. The Blind Watchmaker (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcAq9bmCeR0&fmt=18) algorithm is an excellent example of this - the evolution of self-replicating watches that compete in accuracy has long periods of inactivity, and when a major breakthrough happens by chance, it spreads through population really fast, dominating over inferior fenotypes.

A sentient being trying to figure out a problem or designing something - be it anything - only searches for working solutions to begin with and has the advantage of creativity, imagination and all the cognitive abilities that the evolution of the species has inherited it with, and easily dismisses options that obviously won't work.

Quote
I know what you're trying to say, but evolution is a clumsy and ineffective way of solving most problems.


Aww. You didn't say "clumsy and random". How could you ever pass such an excellent possibility to quote some movie history. :(

 :p


TrashMan: I think Battuta meant that body armor isn't an evolving organism in the sense that it doesn't replicate (thank goodness) and doesn't mutate, but requires someone to design it and improve it. She didn't mean that body armor wouldn't have been improved...
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: General Battuta on December 01, 2008, 06:18:56 pm
TrashMan: I think Battuta meant that body armor isn't an evolving organism in the sense that it doesn't replicate (thank goodness) and doesn't mutate, but requires someone to design it and improve it. She didn't mean that body armor wouldn't have been improved...

Yup.

Also, Rian's the 'she'. I'm a 'he'. We shared an account for a while, which caused confusion.
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: Herra Tohtori on December 01, 2008, 06:50:23 pm
Rian's the 'she'. I'm a 'he'. We shared an account for a while, which caused confusion.

 :nervous:

Duly noted.
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on December 02, 2008, 12:40:42 am
It hasn't? you haven't been keeping up, have you?

http://www.pinnaclearmor.com/body-armor/dragon-skin.php

Check the Discovery Channel videos at the bottom.
AK-47, M-16.....even a friggin GRANADE didn't penetrate.
;

       I bet a knife would.
       
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: Mars on December 02, 2008, 12:46:44 am
A knife in fact would not, although knives do pretty well against plain fiber, the ceramic plates are less forgiving. Plus, anyone wearing this is most likely armed, and most likely with something more long ranged than a knife.
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: TrashMan on December 02, 2008, 04:42:34 am
Dragon Skin ain't cheap :P

what I wonder is why we don't see railguns/coilguns in the newer sci-fi's (BSG, Firefly), but rather the standard MP5's stuff.
Heck, you can build hommade coilguns right now. True, they don't have much power behind htem, due ot power/battery constraints, but I figure in the future that problem should be lifted

http://www.coilgun.ru/
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: Vidmaster on December 02, 2008, 06:28:21 am
Firefly would have kicked even new BSG if they had the chance to develop it over the course of multiple Seasons. But, like always in life, the best always fall first.
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: TrashMan on December 02, 2008, 08:09:51 am
Firefly would have kicked even new BSG if they had the chance to develop it over the course of multiple Seasons. But, like always in life, the best always fall first.

"Would have"? Unfinished as it is, it's already kicking it's butt.
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: General Battuta on December 02, 2008, 08:25:03 am
Firefly would have kicked even new BSG if they had the chance to develop it over the course of multiple Seasons. But, like always in life, the best always fall first.

"Would have"? Unfinished as it is, it's already kicking it's butt.

Disagreed.

Anyway, on the coilgun issue, remember that buying modern firearms for props is very cheap, whereas building new ones has inauthentic and fragile results.

Technically the weapons on Firefly are all caseless, however.

Lastly, Firefly and BSG both go for a cinema verite feel, part of which requires having as few high-tech gadgets as possible.
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: Mika on December 02, 2008, 12:55:11 pm
[Tangent]
Regarding genetical algorithms, I personally tend to favor Differential Evolution over anything fancier. Reasons being that it is simple, easy to program and does not need fancy mathematics, and, in the end, simply works. Adding a local optimizer like Conjugate Gradients or Newton's iteration will act as "brains". The other (though less stabile) algorithm I came fond of is SPSA, again due to simplicity and because it is quite easy to program.

Most likely, anything fancier algorithms simply take longer to program (less time to optimize) and also tend to be more error prone, while offering not so much performance improvements to make them worthwile. Or at least in my cases.
[/Tangent]

Speaking of body armor, I meant that there has been a lot of time available for evolution in the world, and it seems that the most carnivorous animals (that most likely also fight and receive injuries) do not have armor, but rely instead on mobility or on surprise. I don't know if this is relevant, but same applied when Mongols invaded half the Europe. They simply had a better bow and relied on mobility, while Europeans were stuck inside city walls.

I didn't mean that the body armor is useless or not worthwile. The thing has probably saved countless of lives, and even I were lucky to wear one in the army - during winter, that is. But it does have its limitations. While body armors develop, I'm wonder when we are starting to see lead tipped or depleted uranium tipped bullets in the service - or some other fancy stuff like extremely pointy drilling heads. If that doesn't work make that 7.62 mm rifle a 9 mm rifle. The other guy has to carry more armor if he wants to stop the bullets, and most likely the weight increase by bullets and larger rifle is less than the thicker armor needed to stop them. Also, shock experienced by getting hit by a bullet while wearing armor is also something. While the soldier most likely stays alive, he stops for a while.

Depends actually on what is being done. If it is attack, heavy armor is a problem. If patrolling and keeping peace (where mobility is not required that much), why not?

Mika
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: MR_T3D on December 02, 2008, 05:50:48 pm
here's a thought:
What if they are using coil-based guns, and they merely LOOK like normal guns, as they figure they look the best.
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: General Battuta on December 02, 2008, 09:37:14 pm
here's a thought:
What if they are using coil-based guns, and they merely LOOK like normal guns, as they figure they look the best.

The showrunners said they were caseless, I believe.
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: Grizzly on December 05, 2008, 04:31:16 am
Firefly would have kicked even new BSG if they had the chance to develop it over the course of multiple Seasons. But, like always in life, the best always fall first.

"Would have"? Unfinished as it is, it's already kicking it's butt.

Under Sci-Fi freaks, yes.
Under General population (like BSG...): No, not really.
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: TrashMan on December 05, 2008, 05:51:27 am
Furefly >> BSG.

Better actors, better characters, better plot and better camera work
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: Cyker on December 05, 2008, 07:22:02 am
But but but what about the homing laser pistol in the Space Brothel episode!!
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: General Battuta on December 05, 2008, 08:13:19 am
Furefly >> BSG.

Better actors, better characters, better plot and better camera work

In your opinion.

BSG is more critically acclaimed and draws bigger audiences.
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: TrashMan on December 05, 2008, 08:56:12 am
So what?

A lot of terrible stuff is horribly overhyped and overpriced.
Did Titanic really deserve all the awards? Are reality shows really that good?

Size of audience never is and never will be important for me. And critics often live in their own little worlds.

When it comes to analyzing shows I'm rather brutal and methodical. Internal and logical consistency is a must. BGS fails in that regard.

So yeah, it's my opinion. By I believe my opinion matches the reality of the situation.
Title: Re: Just watched Firefly...
Post by: General Battuta on December 05, 2008, 09:33:35 am
So what?

A lot of terrible stuff is horribly overhyped and overpriced.
Did Titanic really deserve all the awards? Are reality shows really that good?

Size of audience never is and never will be important for me. And critics often live in their own little worlds.

When it comes to analyzing shows I'm rather brutal and methodical. Internal and logical consistency is a must. BGS fails in that regard.

So yeah, it's my opinion. By I believe my opinion matches the reality of the situation.

Okay.