Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Molybdenum on December 23, 2008, 07:02:48 am
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Playing Judas and Monster in the Mist and spawned a number of fan-made spin offs that we call stealth missions. Most of which turn out frustrating to say the least. But what makes a good stealth mission? I'm talking about technicals stuff like using SEXP as well as balancing issues addressed by non FREDders. I've been toying with the idea of a mini-campaign with a majority of stealthy missions involving the Pegasus. Based off a campaign idea I found in the Wiki.
http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Second_Great_War-era_Campaign_ideas
Theoretically speaking could something like this be pleasing to play. A campaign with nothing but stealth and solo dogfights dipped in an intriguing storyline. Transcend pops to mind as to what the missions would look like. I wonder if its doable.
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I see stealth missions as side dishes while the normal missions serve as the main dishes. A menu composing entirely of side dishes doesn't sound too good.
Stealth missions are mainly scouting missions, especially behind enemy lines. A more better idea is probably a SOC style campaign against the Shivans with a larger proportion of stealth missions, combined with small team actions with normal fighters. Probably running and hiding behind enemy lines. Maybe along with a destroyer or a smaller custom built carrier capable type of ship.
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I included one of these in a campaign I wrote. It was only moderately successful. What's more it was really, really difficult to make. The main problem was that because space is quite big and has three dimensions, it was difficult to put up enough enemy patrols to make sneaking past them a worthwhile challenge.
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Or you could go a different route and have the player pretend he is part of an enemy patrol...
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Of course there is always the problem of stealth not working. AI ships can see, target, and kill stealth ships no matter what flags you use.
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You could protect the stealth-ed ship.
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I included one of these in a campaign I wrote. It was only moderately successful. What's more it was really, really difficult to make. The main problem was that because space is quite big and has three dimensions, it was difficult to put up enough enemy patrols to make sneaking past them a worthwhile challenge.
Same here. In the mission in my campaign the player was ordered to observe "from the shadows" how a bunch of friendlies took contact with an enemy patrol and convinced them that they were willing to swich sides... or something like that.
It was indeed quite hard to code since the space really is as you say big and 3D. So I had to take at least some kind of scenarios what the player might do into cocideration.
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Theoretically speaking could something like this be pleasing to play. A campaign with nothing but stealth and solo dogfights dipped in an intriguing storyline. Transcend pops to mind as to what the missions would look like. I wonder if its doable.
This would be interesting to play, although I am not sure how well it would be received. I wouldn't call Transcend's missions stealth at all though.
One problem with a lot of "stealth" missions is that they are far too easy, as they have the player just going through the motions without really doing much. As IPAndrews said, it's hard to cover a large area effectively with enemy patrols. Last I checked, there was a limit on the number of waypoints and you can run into it quickly in a mission like this. However, this can be worked around if you require the player to go to specific spots, as you can then concentrate the patrols around those areas.
The other issue is that if you actually manage to make it challenging, such missions require a very different approach to the game than what most people are used to and you will find widely varying opinions on their difficulty, with people either loving or hating them.
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You could protect the stealth-ed ship.
Yes but then you have to unprotect them if they are in range of an enemy ship that could possible see them then protect them again from other ships or if they get out of range. That was what stealth did for you in retail. You get to close or start firing then you were attacked. You have an AWACS ship and your within range you become visible. None of that works now. Just try playing Vasudian Assault 2 with a stealth and see.
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I don't think that is what this thread is about. You're talking about playing normal missions in a stealth ship, as opposed to missions that involve no/minimal combat and are based around movement and avoidance.
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Well the example from the Wiki link from the first post was with a stealth fighter.
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Its about making fan-made stealth missions that don't suck. :P As in FREDding them. Maybe i should have put it in FRED discussion but I though this would allow non-FREDers a chance to speak out.
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You could protect the stealth-ed ship.
Yes but then you have to unprotect them if they are in range of an enemy ship that could possible see them then protect them again from other ships or if they get out of range. That was what stealth did for you in retail. You get to close or start firing then you were attacked. You have an AWACS ship and your within range you become visible. None of that works now. Just try playing Vasudian Assault 2 with a stealth and see.
Why doesn't that work anymore? FSO broke it?
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In a word:
YES!
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In a word:
YES!
how the hell did that happen?
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It's on my list of things to fix actually. I've been concentrating on FRED bugs this last month. I'm going to concentrate on multiplayer ones after Christmas though.
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"Alone" was actually my concept; I once even had some of the intro FREDded, but it's gone now. My conception was more or less that stealth would be useful, but ultimately optional; that being seen and raising a bit of havoc would be considered somewhat to the good by making the NTF waste time and resources looking for you. You would be flying some stealthy-type missions in an optional normal fashion, or normal missions in a stealthy fashion; you won't have to fight your way to the target, but you'll probably have to shoot your way out.
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"Alone" was actually my concept; I once even had some of the intro FREDded, but it's gone now. My conception was more or less that stealth would be useful, but ultimately optional; that being seen and raising a bit of havoc would be considered somewhat to the good by making the NTF waste time and resources looking for you. You would be flying some stealthy-type missions in an optional normal fashion, or normal missions in a stealthy fashion; you won't have to fight your way to the target, but you'll probably have to shoot your way out.
Instead of a stealth fighter mission, a more viable option is something akin to Into The Lion's Den, where you're infiltrating, and if you get too close to something your cover gets blown for good.
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The best stealth mission for me was when you were flying the SF Dragon in FS 1. Into the Lion's Den was second place (however the Terrans could have triggered a Shivan search, instead of being labeled hostile instantly, which would create a chance of leaving the enemy in chaos undetected, if the whole wing was lucky enough to stay away from combat ships), and all the rest (both from the stock campaigns and mods) generally were either boring or much too hard.
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Playing Judas wasn't that hard to stay hidden. :nervous:
But in PI, those stealth missions really tested your skill.
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Ask a Desert Storm F-117 pilot about how hard it was to fly to Bagdad undetected. To make things worse, the Iraqis knew the airstrikes were coming. :p
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But in PI, those stealth missions really tested your skill.
The only one that really got me in PI was the second part of mission 14, where you infiltrate the enemy outpost near the Knossos, and that was only because I went out of my way to try to scan the cargo container for the bonus objective. Completing just the main objective of that mission would have been fairly easy, and I managed to make it through mission 13's stealth setup on my first attempt. Now, killing all of those turrets a bit down the pike...that's another story. :p