Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: KillMeNow on March 12, 2002, 05:56:57 am
-
was messing with my gold surface and i thougth eheh why not do the ring from lord of the rings
(http://www.killmenow.barrysworld.net/onering.jpg)
(http://www.killmenow.barrysworld.net/onering2.jpg)
-
That's it... I'm doing your art gallery... :D
-
yeahouhiahy the Mordor doesn't use greek alphabet ;7
btw, this ring is way too thick, look at a real one ;)
-
well strangely enough i dont have the fonts for the language of mordor as for the ring being to thick perhaps but it was innatially just a test of my gold texture cause i didn't think the lightwave preset was upto much
-
Originally posted by KillMeNow
well strangely enough i dont have the fonts for the language of mordor as for the ring being to thick perhaps but it was innatially just a test of my gold texture cause i didn't think the lightwave preset was upto much
bah, you can find the "quote" everywhere, just make a search, and use the bmp as a map :)
I've even seen it in a thread in the HLP forum :)
-
Originally posted by venom2506
btw, this ring is way too thick, look at a real one ;)
I assume by this you mean the one in the movie (the same terribly accurate movie with Arwen Evenstar swinging a blade and no Tom Bombadil). As the movie is inaccurate, there are also no pictures of the One Ring. I'd say KMN's rendition of the ring (but not the script) is as accurate as any other.
-
yes i noticed in the film that the script was on the outside - as i recall i think (been a while though) that in the book teh writing was on the inside
-
Nice Render! And I think that the movie was damn good! Ok, its not a FULL adaptation of the book, but come on you guys, don't tell me the average person who heasent read the books would not consider the whole Tom Bombadil event boring. A man with the power to stop trees from killing people by singing to them?
And if you people want heres a link to the Tengwar font that is used in the ring. I also suggest you get Tengwar Scribe, that allows you to convert messages into tengwar cursive and into the language of Mordor.
http://www.sci.fi/~alboin/tengwar.htm
That should have the font to allow you to write the message into the ring! :D
-
thanks where can i get the scribe? and does anyone remember the exact wording of the ring?
-
http://user.tninet.se/~xof995c/tengscribe.htm
That should have Tengwar Scribe. In the readme it should have the correct wording aswell casue thats what we all wanna write first right? :D The program works great too, cause if you write the "one ring to rule them all..." line it will translate it correctly to what it was in the ring. So its a fun little program. :D
-
Originally posted by KillMeNow
thanks where can i get the scribe? and does anyone remember the exact wording of the ring?
In English or in Mordor?
BTW, hella cool render!
:headz: Man, gotta love this smiley
-
still haven't found the exact wording but here is somethign i made up that sounded slightly familiar in that font (not used the scripter yet though)
(http://www.killmenow.barrysworld.net/onering4.jpg)
-
Make it shinier and put some fire behind the camera to reflect in the ring.
-
Originally posted by mikhael
I assume by this you mean the one in the movie (the same terribly accurate movie with Arwen Evenstar swinging a blade and no Tom Bombadil). As the movie is inaccurate, there are also no pictures of the One Ring. I'd say KMN's rendition of the ring (but not the script) is as accurate as any other.
no, I meant KMN one
I'm a huge mfan of the books, and I must say I was terribly anxious about the movie, yet even with the large parts cut off and some changes ( Saruman is much more important in the movie than in the first book ), I can understand, and then accept those changes. the movie is already damn long, you could realisticly do more, and don't forget they have 2 other movies to complete. And for Saruman, well, the movie was also directed to non Tolkien reader audience, and so they needed a villain for the movie, and Sauron doesn't show up, never, so...
-
Originally posted by venom2506
no, I meant KMN one
I'm a huge mfan of the books, and I must say I was terribly anxious about the movie, yet even with the large parts cut off and some changes ( Saruman is much more important in the movie than in the first book ), I can understand, and then accept those changes. the movie is already damn long, you could realisticly do more, and don't forget they have 2 other movies to complete. And for Saruman, well, the movie was also directed to non Tolkien reader audience, and so they needed a villain for the movie, and Sauron doesn't show up, never, so...
Sauron shows up a helluva lot more in the first movie than he does in the book already, heh.
i keep watching that mace effect
*goes outside to throw a few crowds around*
-
Originally posted by wEvil
Sauron shows up a helluva lot more in the first movie than he does in the book already, heh.
i keep watching that mace effect
*goes outside to throw a few crowds around*
he shows only at the begining lol :D and it's not an original LOTR scene, it's a Silmarillion one :). In the book, nobody never meets with him if I'm not mistaken, only Gandalf in The Hobbit, and the scene is not described :doh:
Btw, I wonder: how come Saruman feared him eventually, when he got to banish him once? One that can be beaten once can be beaten twice, he should know that, no?
-
perhaps his power grows or he learns new stuff or something
-
Originally posted by Dark_4ce
...but come on you guys, don't tell me the average person who heasent read the books would not consider the whole Tom Bombadil event boring. A man with the power to stop trees from killing people by singing to them?
Actually, I'm less concerned about Tom's absence (I considered him unnecessary, as he doesn't ever fit into the structure of the Middle Earth in any way. He wasn't man or elf or dwarf, nor Maiar nor Valar). I was much more concerned about the Arwen riding out on a horse to pick up the dying Frodo and waving a sword about. As I recall, in Lord of the Rings, there's only one warrior woman, and she was no elf. I can deal with them promoting Saruman, as they were basically recounting what was revealed in The Two Towers anyway (I'll not say how for those who don't already know, it'd be a truly evil spoiler).
All in all, I was well pleased by the movie, but by no means is it in any way accurate to the book, and thus should not be used as metrestick by which to judge KMN's Ring. As I said, there's no J.R.R Tolkien produced imagery, and no exhaustive description by which to go (so far as I know), and thus KMN's rendition is as accurate as any other they might be proffered. This was said in reaction to Venom asserting that KMN's Ring was too thick.
-
well, I said it was too thick, compared to a real one :p
I think many parts of the movie were quite accurate, the scene in the Moria, save for the beaffed up troll and a few details, was a real act of bravery if you ask me, and, honestly, I would never have expected the Balrog to look that close from how I was imagining it.
Btw, the female warior is Eowyn of Rohan, and yeah, ARwen picking up Frodo kindda pissed me off. Arwen is not a warrior at all. I kindda like Bombadil tho, he's probably the most powerful creature of middle earth, even if he doesn't look at all this way, but yeah, he could look kindda out of the place. I think he's a Maiar actually. There's no statement against that, and he's not powerful enough to be a Valar (and I think we know the names of all the Valars in the Silmarillion anyway). He's definitively not a wizard, and I don't see any other option. And I doubt he would be a one of a kind creature.
-
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all and in darkness bind them
(http://www.killmenow.barrysworld.net/ringfinal.jpg)
Give in to the Dark Side!!
-
is that third one different from the second? I can't tell...
-
The writing! The writing! Its the actual words on the ring... not something he made up... thats the diff between the 2
-
there is also a hint of fire in the reflection on the ring
-
Originally posted by RKIF-DragonClaw
The writing! The writing! Its the actual words on the ring... not something he made up... thats the diff between the 2
Ahhhhh...so that's what's different. Now that I look at it...you're right! :doh:
-
Originally posted by venom2506
I kindda like Bombadil tho, he's probably the most powerful creature of middle earth, even if he doesn't look at all this way, but yeah, he could look kindda out of the place. I think he's a Maiar actually. There's no statement against that, and he's not powerful enough to be a Valar (and I think we know the names of all the Valars in the Silmarillion anyway). He's definitively not a wizard, and I don't see any other option. And I doubt he would be a one of a kind creature.
In one of his letters, which is available online, Tolkien expressly stated that Bombadil is nothing in the Ainulindule. Thus he cannot be Maiar or Valar nor Wizard.
If Bombadil is anything in the Silmarillion, there's only one thing he can be, and that is, of course, the only thing that existed before the Ainulindule. He would have to be Illuvatar, and I rather doubt that. Bombadil is something Other, something that is not of Middle Earth nor the entirety of its creation.
-
Originally posted by KillMeNow
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all and in darkness bind them
(http://www.killmenow.barrysworld.net/ringfinal.jpg)
Give in to the Dark Side!!
Whoa; super-cool. :):yes:
-
Originally posted by mikhael
In one of his letters, which is available online, Tolkien expressly stated that Bombadil is nothing in the Ainulindule. Thus he cannot be Maiar or Valar nor Wizard.
If Bombadil is anything in the Silmarillion, there's only one thing he can be, and that is, of course, the only thing that existed before the Ainulindule. He would have to be Illuvatar, and I rather doubt that. Bombadil is something Other, something that is not of Middle Earth nor the entirety of its creation.
well, you're better informed than I am.
The Illuvatar? yeah lol, that's kindda doubtfull :D he wouldn't need to sing to stop a tree from killing someone I guess, yet he seems to have created everything with songs so... Anyway, I just don't imagine him as a strange happy fellow singing in the forest with his lady lol.
-
That's it, I've had enough. Who is Tom Bombadil???
-
Originally posted by Setekh
That's it, I've had enough. Who is Tom Bombadil???
mmh, a weird guy in thefirst book, in a part scrapped in the movie, he saves the hobbits in the forest ( before they arrive at bree, where they meet with aragorn). He seems to have immense powers, that could even match those of Sauron himselves, and some guys in the council with Elrond even suggest to give him the ring so he takes care of it, but Gandalf stated that Bombadil wouldn't care and would even probably forget the ring in some place. He does nothing incredible ion the book anyway, he just saves the hobbits from a tree that was "swallowing" them or make them drown, just by singing.
There's also a book by Tolkien focused only on him, it's a lot of poems in fact, but it's kindda childish if you ask me.
-
Tom Bombadil is a ridiculously powerful character in the The Fellowship of the Ring. When our hobbits are escaping from Farmer Maggot's field, they end up in the clutches of Old Man Willow, a grumpy carnivorous tree with a taste for young hobbit flesh.
Bombadil shows up and sings the tree into calm and saves the hobbits, and takes them back to his house. He introduces them to his wife, whose name I do not recall at this moment. Frodo lets Bombadil touch the Ring and, shockingly, nothing happens. This is a key point. Everyone, from Gandalf to Galadriel to Elrond feels the pull of the Ring, the desire to possess it and to dominate through Its power. To Bombadil, however, its just a silly ring. This is our best indication that Tom is something of a wholly different nature from the creatures of Middle Earth. To have gone unaffected by the Power of the Ring, having touched and held it, shows him to have greater power than the Maiar (Sauron is Maiar, as I recall) or the Wizards, both of which groups are just below the Valar in power.
To put it another way, Tom Bombadil would have been played by Samuel L. Jackson and he would have had a wallet that said 'Bad M***a F***a' on it.
Venom, the reason the book about Tom Bombadil was childish was that it was a children's book. Tolkien portrayed Bombadil as foolish and bumbling, carefree and silly. He is utterly childlike in himself. I suspect a little research will show that the book about Bombadil was written first (though not necessarily published first) and is the source of more borrowed characters, in the same way that Tolkien lifted elements in the Silmarillion to craft The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings.
-
actually, it's not true, as the Silmarilion wasn't exactly tolkien's work (well, tolkien it was, but Tolkien son actually). It's just a damn lot of notes written on a corner of a page, lose sheets of papers, letters to students, stuff like that, that his son gathered and rework to pu ti together. That's why it has some inconstancies or even incoherences, Tolkien was often contradicting himself in two texts, and according to his son, the silmarillion was quite some piece of work to put together.
Funny you think Bombadil is "ridiculously powerful" btw, when I read about those sci-fi species from your books, that can create universes and stuff. That is ridiculously powerful, not the fact that a guy can resist to the attraction of a magic ring. Actually, you want to know my theory of why he didn't feel anything? I think Bombadil is... her... warning, that will sound dumb, but anyway:
I think he's perfectly pure, not a single bad part in his heart, he's not greedy, not agressive, he's fair. The One Ring emphasizes on people's defaults to seize control over them, as did the lesser rings. The ring just can't use anything like that on Tom, and so the fellow is not threatened at all by it.
-
In terms of the universe of Tolkien's creation, Bombadil is ridiculously powerful. Evil things in the world fear him; he is unaffected by an artifact that corrupts even beings only twice removed from Illuvatar himself.
I do like your reasoning, however.
-
Originally posted by KillMeNow
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all and in darkness bind them
(http://www.killmenow.barrysworld.net/ringfinal.jpg)
Give in to the Dark Side!!
WOW. This thing is A1-SUPAR
:jaw: :jaw:
:headz:
I Love this smiley :p
-
Originally posted by mikhael
an artifact that corrupts even beings only twice removed from Illuvatar himself.
what?
-
Originally posted by venom2506
what?
In the ranking of beings from the Silmarillion: Illuvatar at the top, followed by Valar, followed by Maiar and the Istari (Maiar in human form as wizards). Even Gandalf feels the pull of the Ring, and he is Istari, only two steps away from Illuvatar.
One explanation suggests that Tom is bonded to his part of Ea, Middle Earth, and in that part, his power is supreme. He is at LEAST Maiar, and possible Valar, and thus has that sort of power, within his realm to resist the power of the Ring. Another suggestion is that Maiar, like Gandalf and Tom are tempted, they just do not succumb.
I think its time for me to stuff LOTR and The Silmarillion in my MP3 player again. :D
-
Originally posted by mikhael
In the ranking of beings from the Silmarillion: Illuvatar at the top, followed by Valar, followed by Maiar and the Istari (Maiar in human form as wizards). Even Gandalf feels the pull of the Ring, and he is Istari, only two steps away from Illuvatar.
One explanation suggests that Tom is bonded to his part of Ea, Middle Earth, and in that part, his power is supreme. He is at LEAST Maiar, and possible Valar, and thus has that sort of power, within his realm to resist the power of the Ring. Another suggestion is that Maiar, like Gandalf and Tom are tempted, they just do not succumb.
I think its time for me to stuff LOTR and The Silmarillion in my MP3 player again. :D
huh... can't you read a real book? :p
I don't think Istaris are maiars in human form... they would be really damn powerfull. Ok, Gandalf IS damn powerfull, but even Saruamn don't think the all the istaris are powerful enough to beat a single mayar (Sauron). There's a flaw there :) And does radagast sounds like he's a Mayar? :)
Also, that would imply that a Balrog is horribly powerfull (which they are, I admit, but they can't be as powerfull as a creation of illuvatar himslef). The one we see gives Gandalf quite some pbs, no?
To support my affirmation, i'll just quote (from memory) the fact that in the Silmarillion, it's stated noone knows who are the Istaris and where they came from originaly, not even the Eldars.
-
Originally posted by venom2506
huh... can't you read a real book? :p
I don't think Istaris are maiars in human form... they would be really damn powerfull. Ok, Gandalf IS damn powerfull, but even Saruamn don't think the all the istaris are powerful enough to beat a single mayar (Sauron). There's a flaw there :) And does radagast sounds like he's a Mayar? :)
Also, that would imply that a Balrog is horribly powerfull (which they are, I admit, but they can't be as powerfull as a creation of illuvatar himslef). The one we see gives Gandalf quite some pbs, no?
To support my affirmation, i'll just quote (from memory) the fact that in the Silmarillion, it's stated noone knows who are the Istaris and where they came from originaly, not even the Eldars.
"can't you read a real book?" Yes, I can. On the other hand, I can also LISTEN to a book while I drive. I cannot read a book while I drive. I spend three hours a day driving back and forth from work. Since I don't listen to music, this is a perfect time to listen to audiobooks. I only listen to unabridged audiobooks. I do not like missing a single word. :p
Now, to the question at hand: I think you are mistaken. I believe the Silmarillion states that the Istari ARE Maiar. What else could they be? They are not men, and yet they come from Illuvatar's realm. If the Istari are Valar, they could destroy Sauron rather casually. Certainly, none of the Valar ever had trouble with the Maiar. That leaves either Maiar, or the younger races. The Istari are certainly not elves nor dwarves nor men. That leaves only the Maiar, who obviously vary in power. The Silmarillion explicitly declares Balrogs to be Maiar related to fire. Sauron dominated the Balrogs and other beastly Maiar long before his creation of the One Ring. If Balrogs (many Maiar) could be dominated by Sauron (a lone Maiar), I do not think it impossible that Radaghast could be Maiar as well.
I think you will find passing mention in the Silmarillion, that the Istari have provenances of power. I believe that in either that volume or in the Lord of the Rings itself, Radaghast's power is implied to deal with animals.
-
Originally posted by mikhael
In the ranking of beings from the Silmarillion: Illuvatar at the top, followed by Valar, followed by Maiar and the Istari (Maiar in human form as wizards).
After the answers come more questions. ;) Would you mind explaining this hierarchy to me? :)
-
Originally posted by Setekh
After the answers come more questions. ;) Would you mind explaining this hierarchy to me? :)
bah, just different ranks of gods. I don't have the silmarillion at my apartment, so I don't remember exactly for yhr Mayar, but Illuvatar is the god who created everything, the valar are his sons and the maiar, don't remember. lesser gods probably.
they create and destroy things with songs, that's why I think Bombadil is somehow linked with them.
-
Originally posted by venom2506
bah, just different ranks of gods. I don't have the silmarillion at my apartment, so I don't remember exactly for yhr Mayar, but Illuvatar is the god who created everything, the valar are his sons and the maiar, don't remember. lesser gods probably.
they create and destroy things with songs, that's why I think Bombadil is somehow linked with them.
Ahhh, I see. Yeah, that would make sense then. Darn, LotR is like B5... the more you find out, the more you want to find out, and now I know the entire B5 story arc, and I've even done quite a bit of thinking about it ;)
-
Originally posted by Setekh
After the answers come more questions. ;) Would you mind explaining this hierarchy to me? :)
How about I just quote the opening of the Silmarillion. Its the best explanation:
Ainulindale, The Music of the Ainur
There was Eru, the One, whoi in Arda is called Iluvatar; and he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the ofspring of his thought, and they were with him before aught else was made. And he spoke them, propounding to them themes of music; and they sang before him, and he was glad. But for a long while they sang only each alone, or but few together, while the rest hearkened; for each comprehended only that part of the mind of Iluvatar from which he came, and in the understanding of their brethren they grew but slowly. Yet ever as they listend they came to deeper understanding, and increased in unison and harmony.
And it came to pass that Iluvatar called together all the Ainur and declared to them a mighty theme, unfolding to them things greater and more wonderful than he had yet revealed; and the glory of its beginning and the splendour of its end amazed the Ainur, so they bowed before Iluvatar and were silent.
Then Iluvatar said to them: 'Of the theme that I have declared to you, I will now that ye make in harmony together a Great Music. And since I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishible, ye shal show forth your powers in adorning this theme, each with his own thoughts and devices, if he will. But I will sit and hearken, and be glad that through you great beauty has been wakened into song.'
Then the voices of the Ainur, like unto harps and lutes, and pipes and trumpets, and viols and organs, and like unto countless choirs singing with words, began to fashion the theme of Iluvatar to a great music' and a sound arose of endless interchanging melodies woven in harmony that passed beyond hearing into the depths and the heights, and the places of the dwelling of Iluvatar were filled to overflowing, and the music and the echo of the music went out into the Void, and it was not void. Never since have the Ainur made any music like to this music, though it has been said that a greater still shall be made before Iluvatar by the choirs of the Ainur and the Children of iluvatar after the end of days. Then the themes of Iluvatar shall be played aright, and take Being in the moment of ther utterance, for all shall then understand fully his intent in their part, and each shall know the comprehension of each, and Iluvatar shall give to their thoughts the secret fire, being well pleased.
But now Iluvatar sat and hearkened, and for a great while it seemed good to him, for in the music there were no flaws. But as the theme progressed, it came into the heart of Melkor to interweave matters of his own imagining that were not in accord with the theme of Iluvatar; for he sought therein to increase the power and glory of the part assigned to himself. To Melkor among the Ainur had been given the greatest gifts of power and knowledge, and he had a share in all the gifts of his brethren. He had gone often alone into the void places seeking the Imperishable Flame; for desire grew hot within him to bring into Being things of his own, and it seemed to him that Iluvatar took no thought for the Void, and he was impatient of its emptiness. Yet he found not the Fire, for it is with Iluvatar. But being alone he had begun to concieve thoughts of his own unlike those of his brethren.
Some of these thoughts he now wove into his music, and straightaway discord arose about him, and many that sang night him grew despondent, and their thought was disturbed and their music faltered; but some began to attune their music to his rather than to the thought which they had at first. Then the discord of Melkor spread ever wider, and the melodies which had been heard before foundered in a sea of turbulent sound. But Iluvatar sat and hearkened until it seemed that about his throne there was a raging storm, as of dark waters that made war one upon another in an endless wrath that would not be assuaged.
Then Iluvatar arose, and the Ainur perceived that he smiled; and he lifted up his left hand, and a new theme began amind the storm, like and yet unlike to the former theme, and it gathered power and had new beauty. But the discord of Melkor rose in uproar and contended with it, and again there was a war of sound more violent than before, until many of the Ainur were dismayed and sang no longer, and Melkor had the mastery. Then again Iluvatar arose, and the Ainur perceived that his countenance was stern; and he lifted up his right hand, and behold! a third theme grew amid the confusion, and it was unlike the others. For it seemed at first soft and sweet, a mere rippling of gentle sounds in delicate melodies; but it could not be quenched, and it took to itself power and prfundity. And it seemed at last that there were to musics progressing at one time before the seat of Iluvatar, and they were utterly at variance. The one was deep and wide and beautiful, but slow and blended with an immeasurable sorrow, from which its beauty chiefly came. The other had now achieved a unity of its own; but it was loud, and vain, and endlessly repeated; and it had little harmony, but rather a clamorous unison as of many trumpets braying upon a few notes. And it essaged to drown the other music by the violence of its voice, but it seemed that its most triumphant notes were taken by the others and woven into its own solemn pattern.
In the midst of this strife, whereat the halls of Iluvatar shook and a tremor ran out into the silences yet unmoved, Iluvatar arose a third time, and his face was terrible to behold. Then he raised up both his hands, and in one chord, deeper than the Abyss, higher than the Firmament, piercing as the light of the eye of Iluvatar, the Music ceased.
-
thats an explation/ i'm more confused than before
-
Iluvatar creates the Ainur. Chief amongst them are the Valar, the First Ones. The Ainulindale, the song of creation, is given to the Valar and they sing. From their singing, including the discord of Melkor, the world, Arda is born.
Some of the Valar go into the world, charged with the task of preparing Arda for the youngest, shortest lived, and best loved of Iluvatar's creations: Man.
Other creatures, not as great as the Valar, but more numerous, called the Maiar were also created by Iluvatar. Among these are the Balrogs and the Istari. Melkor took some of the Balrogs when he fled the halls of Iluvatar for the lands of Arda. Another Maia, who goes, today, by the name Sauron, aligned himself with Melkor as well.
Later, when Melkor was gone from the world, Sauron--who like his master before him--had become bound to Arda and could not leave it, feigned reform and studied the Making of the Rings of Power with the elves and the dwarves. Unbeknownst to them, however, Sauron tainted the making of those Rings and created his own Ring, into which he poured his own power. That's the trick with the Ring: it is imbued with the power of one of Iluvatar's own creations, a Maia. And not just any Maia, but the one responsible for the fall of Numenor, the mightiest holdfast of Man.
The celestial order is a simple hierarchy, with Iluvatar at the top, with the Ainur beneath him, and the elves, dwarves and man below that. The Ainur themselves are divided into a powerful, but small, group called the Valar and a much larger, but weaker, group called the Maiar. Tolkien, in his letters, remarked that these were not the totality of the creations of Iluvatar, and that Bombadil represented 'those which would otherwise be absent'.
I hope that clears that up.
-
Originally posted by mikhael
. Among these are the Balrogs and the Istari. Melkor took some of the Balrogs when he fled the halls of Iluvatar for the lands of Arda
how the hell can you assume that? I don't thnk it's written anywhere, and I've never heard about that either
-
well i never read this but i have read many fantasy novels and its a common theme to throw gods into the mix in teh guise of men
perhaps your bombadil is this Iluvatar in disguise - if he sings is unaffected by the ring why not - although i admit he has a minor role for the main god but you never know
-
lol, actually, why not? nobody kknows what's up with the big I after all :D (ok, actually, I really don't think so but hey).
Well, LOTR settled the genre, but I think the god coming on earth are more inspired by morgoth and sauron than by Tom Bombadil lol
-
Wow...
That's, ummm, rather cool... :)
-
KMN: In his personal letter, Tolkien expressly stated that Bombadil was not Iluvatar and had never entered into Arda, existing wholly seperate from it.
Venom: I suggest you reread the Silmarillion. The Balrogs, some of the Maiar of Fire, aligning themselves with and joining common purpose to Melkor and Sauron is stated very clearly in the Silmarillion. It was pretty clear on this. As for the Istari being Maiar, that is never made clear in the Silmarillion itself, but Tolkien did say so explicitly in his letters.
-
Mik, you know a lot about this. How long have you been reading Tolkien's work? :)
-
hey were you get the audio books of lord of the rings the hobbit and what was the other one the silmari........ etc etc cause i while i normally read i cant be bothred at the moment hehe lazy you see =)
-
mikheal knows his stuff about Middle Earth, that's for sure. He quoted that passage about Illuvatar and the Great Song right out of the Simarillion.
I also managed to find out quite a bit; I got ahold of a copy of "An illustrated Encyclopedia of Tolkien's Middle Earth", a damn good book of explaining everything that happened in Tolkein's Middle Earth saga.
Concerning the Balrogs: The Balrogs were Maiar in the beginning. They were originally great sprits of fire, but many of them were eventually corrupted by Melkor and became the Balrog demons. My buddy Fighteer (another big Tolkein fan) told me after we watched the FOTR movie in December told me that the Balrog the Fellowship encountered in Moria was supposed to be the last of its kind in the world. Certainly, no other Balrogs had been encountered in Middle Earth for centuries.
About Bombadil: I'm inclined to think that Bombadil is either a Maiar or a Valar, but I'm more inclined to think he is a Maiar (but I could be wrong). He is definitely NOT Illuvatar because Illuvatar never went into Middle Earth; He remained in the Timeless Halls with the rest of the Ainur who chose not to go into Arda. (Arda is just another word for Middle Earth, FYI.) The entire reason some Ainur chose not to go into the World was so they could remain with Illuvatar. Illuvatar is a man/creature/god/Supreme Being of his word: if he said he was going to remain in the Timeless Halls so that he could remain with the Ainur who refused to go, he would not have changed his mind and left them some time later on after he promised to stay. If Illuvatar stayed in the Timeless Halls and Tom Bombadil is in Middle Earth, then obviously the two are not the same person.
I'd like to give you guys an abbreviated timeline but there is just SO MUCH that occurs between the Great Song and the events of Lords of the Rings, I couldn't even give you guys a short timeline.
Cripes, the length of time between the Creation Of Arda and the Destruction of the One Ring covers 37,000 years!
Here's something else you guys may not know if you've only seen the FOTR movie: Arwen is about 2800 years old (yes, 2800!) and Aragorn, being a descendant of the Numenorean Kings, is blessed with an extended (but not immortal like the elves) lifespan. During the events of LOTR, Aragorn is about 87 years old! (Maybe he looks so young is because of the facial cream...? ;) )
Oh yeah, Elrond (Hugo Weaving, the Agent Smith dude from "Matrix") is about 6000 years old and Galadriel (played by Cate Blanchett)...well, her age is harder to determine because she was born before there was a Sun in the world, so it's much harder to calculate her age in years. Suffice it to say that the time that spanned the creation of the Sun and Moon to the events of LOTR covers only about 7000 years.
(When they talk about the First, Second and Third Ages in the movie, they are talking about the Ages of the Sun. The race of Man awoke when the first dawn occurred, so the Men of the world awoke in Year 1 of the First Age. The Sun was created by the Valar about 30,000 years after the Creation of Arda and (I think) about 10,000 years after the Elves awoke. The First Age lasted about 700 years, then the Second Age began and lasted about 3400 years or so and ended when Sauron was defeated when Isildur cut the One Ring from Sauron's hand (as seen in the first few minutes of the movie). The Third Age lasts about another 3000+ years and ends with the One Ring being destroyed in Mount Doom. If I recall correctly, the One Ring is destroyed around the year 3020 of the Third Age. The Fourth Age, also known as the Dominion of Man because all the other races fade from the world at this time, begins shortly afterward.)
Galadriel had actually seen the Light of the Two Trees of Valinor (more on those another time but suffice to say they lit the world before there was a Sun and after the Great Lamps were destroyed), which would make her AT LEAST 10,000 years old (and more likely older)!
OK, I've rambled enough about LOTR for one sitting. If anyone has any questions or comments, let me know and I'll be happy to answer what I can.
-
Steak, its not that I've been reading them alot or anything--or maybe I have. I dunno.
When I was small, like 5yo, my parents bought me the Hobbit storybook (the one based on the execreble animated movie). It came with a 45rpm record. I used to listen to that all the time whilst playing with my toys.
When I was 7 or so, I we moved within walking distance of a public library. I already read a lot at this point, but now I had an inexhaustible source of books. Over the next several years, I must have read the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings about four or five times. I tend to read very fast, so the stories fade quickly. I have to reread things several times before it stick in my head permanently. I could not bring myself to get through the Silmarillion at this time. The writing style was too dry and I was really after a more action oriented fantasy story. The Silmarillion isn't a story: its a historical record in the same vein as the Old Testament of the Bible.
When I started year 7 in school, I had the great fortune to have an english teacher who believed that the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings were meant to be read aloud. Over the course of that year, she read all four books to us, complete and unabridged, with voices. We were required to keep notebooks that annotated who did what, where they did it, and who they did it to and with.
Over the course of the next several years I read, reread, and read the books again-- and yet, I still could not bring myself to read the Silmarillion.
While I was stationed in Japan, I came to respect storytelling as an art of its own. Not just writing, but the complete cycle of storytelling. The Japanese culture, as a whole, takes storytelling very seriously--much more so than American, and to a lesser extent, European cultures. Comics/manga, weekly serialized novels, and cartoons/anime play a large part in their lives. I have to respect that. One again, I read and reread the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings. I made my fellow servicement read some of them and got them hooked, and we would argue all night on 6pm-6am watches.
Since I've been back from Japan, I've worked jobs that have required long commutes (an hour to an two hours each way). I turned to audiobooks to help while those hours away. Previously, I had felt audiobooks to be a cop-out, that they were for people too lazy to read a real book. Those long commutes changed my mind. I started purchasing audiobooks of books I'd previously read in print form, and discovered that I really liked a well put together audiobook. The audiobooks impress me. I am not able to speedread an audiobook. I am forced to experience each sentance, word by word by word. They end up sticking with me longer, and I notice more details. I finally went searching for the Middle Earth books, and they were ALWAYS out of stock--but there was the Silmarillion. I knuckled under and listened. To my great surprise, the Silmarillion as an audio experience is one of the most powerful works Tolkien ever created. The cadences and languages seem intended to be spoken aloud.
I think I've read the books, in print form, between twenty and thirty times. I've listend to all of them as audiobooks seven or eight times.
Su-Tehp, I don't think that Bombadil can be either Vala or Maia, the more I think about it, and we know he is not Iluvatar. If you recall, Bombadil pointed out to the Hobbits that he existed in Arda before the first of the Valar came, before Ulmo and his lot. As the Maiar came after the Valar, Bombadil--if he was telling true--cannot be either.
-
Originally posted by mikhael
Su-Tehp, I don't think that Bombadil can be either Vala or Maia, the more I think about it, and we know he is not Iluvatar. If you recall, Bombadil pointed out to the Hobbits that he existed in Arda before the first of the Valar came, before Ulmo and his lot. As the Maiar came after the Valar, Bombadil--if he was telling true--cannot be either.
If that's what Bombadil said (and I don't doubt you, because I haven't actually read Fellowship of the Ring) then you're probably right. Weird, though. If he's not Valar or Maiar and he's definitely not Illuvatar, and if he exisited in Arda before the Valar came, then what the friggin' hell is he?
-
he's not the only one to have existed before they came, the ent ( no need to put the name, I guess it's a different one in french) that merry and pippin meet is supposed to be the first sentient dude on Middle earth.
-
The Ents did not exist in Middle Earth before the Valar came. The Ents were created by one of the first of the Valar to come to Arda. I cannot remember the Vala's name. I know it wasn't Manwe or Ulmo.
As I recall, the Creation of the Ents and the Elves are what inspired Manwe (was it Manwe? I can't recall) to create the Dwarves in secret.
-
Originally posted by Su-tehp
If that's what Bombadil said (and I don't doubt you, because I haven't actually read Fellowship of the Ring) then you're probably right. Weird, though. If he's not Valar or Maiar and he's definitely not Illuvatar, and if he exisited in Arda before the Valar came, then what the friggin' hell is he?
As Tolkien said in his letters, Bombadil is there to represent those things that would not otherwise have been included, such as the brownies and sprites, spriggans and redcaps and the other fay folk that meant so much to Tolkien.
-
Originally posted by mikhael
The Ents did not exist in Middle Earth before the Valar came. The Ents were created by one of the first of the Valar to come to Arda. I cannot remember the Vala's name. I know it wasn't Manwe or Ulmo.
As I recall, the Creation of the Ents and the Elves are what inspired Manwe (was it Manwe? I can't recall) to create the Dwarves in secret.
Elves and Men were supposed to represent Illuvatar's Two Themes of His Music. But between the Awakening of Elves and the Awakening of Men, the Ents were created by the female Vala who cared for plants and trees (I don't remember her name, but I'll call her "Gaia" for now) and shortly afterward the male Vala known as "The Smith" (I forgot his name too, but it wasn't Manwe) created the Dwarves.
Illuvatar wished Elves and Men to be alone on Middle Earth, but Gaia convinced Illuvatar that the Ents were needed to protect the plant life of Middle Earth from Melkor, otherwise Melkor and his minions would strip Middle Earth's forests of all life. After the Ents were created, The Smith decided to make a race of his own and created the Dwarves in secret in the caves of Middle Earth. Of course, no one can keep a secret from Illuvatar; He found out about the Dwarves and was angry with the Smith and ordered him to destroy his creation. The Smith really didn't mean to transgress against Illuvatar, he just wanted to leave a legacy of people like Gaia did. But he knew that he could not go against the Wishes of Illuvatar, so the Smith grabbed his forging hammerand went to destroy the Dwarves but began to cry as he stepped towards them. The Dwarves also began to show fear when their creator stepped towards them with the intent of destroying them. Illuvatar saw this and felt pity for the Dwarves, who were already living things. Illuvatar stopped the Smith and allowed the Dwarves to live with one stipulation: the Dwarves were to sleep in their caves until after the Race of Men awoke.
Illuvatar wished Men to be his "Second Theme" of His music, so Men were supposed to be the next race to appear after the Elves. (This is why Men are often called the "Second-Born" by the Elves.) With the creation of the Ents and Dwarves, Illuvatar manadted that these two races were to stay hidden (The Ents in the forests and the Dwarves in their caves) until after Men awoke so that everything would remain in line with Illuvatar's plan to have Men known as the Second Born.
Hope that helps clear everything up. :)
-
Only one correction. It is very clear in the early parts of the Silmarillion that Iluvatar intended Elves to merely prepare the world for Man. Thus, the Elves, and later the Ents and Dwarves, were meant to leave Arda after their jobs were done. If you'll recall, the elves did indeed leave for a time, but some were dissatisfied with life in Valinor and chose instead to return to Arda. Galadriel and Elrond, I believe, were among these.
-
isn't it nice that this god was arranging things epecially for us =) do you feel privalidged hehe i do:D
-
Originally posted by mikhael
Only one correction. It is very clear in the early parts of the Silmarillion that Iluvatar intended Elves to merely prepare the world for Man. Thus, the Elves, and later the Ents and Dwarves, were meant to leave Arda after their jobs were done. If you'll recall, the elves did indeed leave for a time, but some were dissatisfied with life in Valinor and chose instead to return to Arda. Galadriel and Elrond, I believe, were among these.
True enough, but there were some Elves that never left Middle Earth when the Teleri, the Noldor and the "third Tribe" (cripes, I forgot what they were called!) went to Valinor. When the Quendi (the Elves "old" word for themselves, it means " the Speakers") had just awoke, one of the Valar, the one known as "the Rider" (I think his name was something like Olorin, it definitely started with an "o") told the Elves about Valinor and said they could make a long Journey to Valinor if they wished to live among the Valar. Those Elves that decided to make the Journey and arrived at valinor became known as the "Elendi" or "the Elves of the Light" because they eventually managed to see the Light of the Two Trees of Valinor. The ones who refused to make the Journey because they did not wish to leave their homes in the East became known as the "Avari", the "Unwilling." The Eastern Elves never again figure prominently in Tolkein's stories.
It's more than hinted that many of the Avari were captured by Melkor and were tortured, corrupted and eventually tuned into the race of Orcs. I don't know if the remaining uncorrupted Avari were eventually brought to Valinor at the end of the Third Age.
Or perhaps these Elves are still in our world.
Anything's possible.
-
Originally posted by Su-tehp
It's more than hinted that many of the Avari were captured by Melkor and were tortured, corrupted and eventually tuned into the race of Orcs. I don't know if the remaining uncorrupted Avari were eventually brought to Valinor at the end of the Third Age.
Not turned into Orcs, but bred to monsters to give birth to the creatures that became orcs. This is much in line with Saruman's experiments which gave birth to the Uruk-hai.
-
The types of Elves:
Eldar - Elves of the Great Journey. Split futher into:
Vanyar - All went to Aman
Noldor - All went to Aman
Teleri - Some went to Aman, some stayed in Beleriand (Sindar - 'Grey Elves'), some left the main Teleri host east of the Misty Mountains (The Nandor, some of which became the Laiquendi or Green Elves of Ossiriand).
Calaquendi - 'Elves of the Light' Those of the Eldar who came to Aman in the time of the Two Trees.
Umanyar - Those Teleri who were 'not of Aman'.
Avari - 'The Unwilling' - those who refused the Great Journey.
Moriquendi - 'Elves of the Darkness' they never saw the Light of the Trees. Made up of the Avari and the Umanyar.
This is all before the Melkor destroyed the Two Trees.
Galadriel is hard to age because her 'Elf-type' changed a bit in Tolkiens work.
Those that left Aman did so because the Melkor. He attemped to split them from the Valar. After the destruction of the Trees and the theft of the Silmarils (some of?) the Teleri rebelled and left for Middle Earth where they battled Melkor for the Silmarils.
After Melkor was overthrown, the Elves were allowed to return to Aman. Some were banned or too proud to return and stayed in Middle Earth. I can't remember if Galadriel was banned or unwilling to return, but because of her actions against Sauron she was allowed return (or decided to) to Aman.
As for Sauron, he has a small part in the 'Two Towers' where Pipin looks into the Palantir.
I can't remember if this has been cleared up but: The Istari are of the Maiar, as was Sauron and the Balrogs. See 'Unfinished Tales'. They are also described as 'peers of Sauron'.
Apologies for the seemingly disprite points here.
-
One question stays unanswered to me, then. If they're all Maiars, why would sorry be that much more powerfull, that he would be able to face all the Istaris and even survive when he was banished, when he was strippd of all his powers then ( since the ring had just been discovered by Bilbo then)?
-
Originally posted by Tar-Palantir
Those Elves that left Aman did so because of Melkor. He attemped to split them from the Valar. After the destruction of the Trees and the theft of the Silmarils (some of?) the Teleri rebelled and left for Middle Earth where they battled Melkor for the Silmarils.
Actually, it was the Noldor that rebelled. Melkor had been captured by the Valar and put in unbreakable chains and kept prisoner in Aman for a long time. Then Feanor (the greatest craftsman of the Noldor Elves) created three great jewels called the Simarils. What made the Simarils so special is that Feanor somehow managed to capture the Light of the Two Trees and imbued the Simarils with them. No one, not even the Valar, could figure out how Feanor did this.
When Melkor was finally freed from his imprisonment for repenting his bad behavior, he secretly plotted to steal the Simarils and destroy the Two Trees. Manwe (the leader of the Valar) believed that Melkor had truly repented, but Melkor tricked him. Once Melkor killed Finwe (the king of the Noldor and Feanor's father), he destroyed the Two Trees and stole the Simarils. Feanor, having lost his father and his greatest work of craftsmanship, whipped his people into a fighting frenzy to make war on Melkor, who had already fled to Middle Earth by this time. To get to Middle Earth, Feanot and his fellow Noldor needed the Teleri's ships to sail across the Western Sea to get back to Middle Earth. Feanor demanded that the Teleri hand over their ships to the Noldor. The Teleri, offended that the Noldor would be so arrogant to demand their ships without being compensated for them, refused. The Noldor then killed many of the Teleri and stole their ships. This was known as the Great Kinslaying, for it was the first time in history that Elf had killed Elf.
It was not to be the last.
Originally posted by Tar-Palantir
After Melkor was overthrown, the Elves were allowed to return to Aman. Some were banned or too proud to return and stayed in Middle Earth. I can't remember if Galadriel was banned or unwilling to return, but because of her actions against Sauron she was allowed return (or decided to) to Aman.
If I recall correctly, Galadriel refused to return to Aman because she had no desire to see her Noldor kin again because she was still ashamed of the Kinslaying. I think her mother was Teleri, but her father was Noldor.
Originally posted by Tar-Palantir
As for Sauron, he has a small part in the 'Two Towers' where Pipin looks into the Palantir.
I can't remember if this has been cleared up but: The Istari are of the Maiar, as was Sauron and the Balrogs. See 'Unfinished Tales'. They are also described as 'peers of Sauron'.
Apologies for the seemingly disprite points here.
Sauron and the Istari were all Maiar, but there is a reason the Istari were notably weaker than Sauron. The Istari were sent by the Valar to Middle Earth with a BIG stipulation: the Istari were forbidden to use any power greater than that which was already present in Middle earth. The Istari were also forbidden to reveal themselves as Maiar. It was their highest priority for the Istari to keep themselves disguised as men of great magic, rather than reveal themselves to the inhabitants of Middle earth as demi-gods. Basically, the Istari had to help Middle earth fight Sauron with one hand tied behind their backs.
Also, Sauron's spirit survived, but he couldn't reform his physical body without the One Ring. The Ring was the "last piece of the puzzle", so to speak, that Sauron needed to take control of Middle Earth again.
-
just curious why doesn't Iluvatar jsut whip the offending valars asses along with the offending maiar asses and set things up how he wanted them to be
-
coz on Middle earth they're out of his control, Illuvatar stays where he belongs and never interfers directly with what happen on the planet. And to say the truth, I thoink he just got bored of the piece of rock and don't pay attention to it anymore.
-
Iluvatar allows His creations free will in their world, which is as it should be, KMN.
Pretty soon, Steak won't have to read the Silmarillion: we'll have told him the whole story. ;)
-
I'm still listening... :D
You guys are summarising it pretty well, IMHO... :nod:
-
Originally posted by Su-tehp
(Arda is just another word for Middle Earth, FYI.)
No, it's not. Arda is the whole world, Middle-Earth is just a continent.
Originally posted by venom2506
coz on Middle earth they're out of his control, Illuvatar stays where he belongs and never interfers directly with what happen on the planet. And to say the truth, I thoink he just got bored of the piece of rock and don't pay attention to it anymore.
That's not true. Illuvatar did interfere directly in the world, once. When Ar-Pharazôn (the last king of Numenor) attacked Valinor (after humiliating Sauron on Middle-Earth), the Valar rejected their power, so Illuvatar killed Ar-Pharazôn and his whole army, destroyed Numenor and changed the shape of Arda. The world became round, and all the routes became curve.
-
Originally posted by Levyathan
No, it's not. Arda is the whole world, Middle-Earth is just a continent.
That's not true. Illuvatar did interfere directly in the world, once. When Ar-Pharazôn (the last king of Numenor) attacked Valinor (after humiliating Sauron on Middle-Earth), the Valar rejected their power, so Illuvatar killed Ar-Pharazôn and his whole army, destroyed Numenor and changed the shape of Arda. The world became round, and all the routes became curve.
yeah, true, I forgot that, and the Numenor realm are now the waste lands in the north of Middle Earth.
Bah, I read the Silmarillion only once, I could quote entire parts of the LOTR from memory, but I admit the Silmarillion is quite another story. It's like the unfinished tales, i should read all that again.
-
Originally posted by Su-tehp
](Arda is just another word for Middle Earth, FYI.)
Originally posted by Levyathan
No, it's not. Arda is the whole world, Middle-Earth is just a continent.
Yah, this is true, I meant to say that Middle Earth was PART OF Arda, so everything that happened in Middle Earth also happened in Arda; I should have been more clear when I said this.
Originally posted by mikhail
Pretty soon, Steak won't have to read the Silmarillion: we'll have told him the whole story. ;)
LOL! I need to read that story too. I only got through the first 30 pages the last time I tried to read it. Damn, reading the Simarillion is a goddammed chore! My god, it's even worse than Stephen Hawking's A Brief Time in History! Now that was a verbose book!
-
Originally posted by Su-tehp
LOL! I need to read that story too. I only got through the first 30 pages the last time I tried to read it. Damn, reading the Simarillion is a goddammed chore! My god, it's even worse than Stephen Hawking's A Brief Time in History! Now that was a verbose book!
Do you mean A Brief History of Time? I didn't find this tedious at all. I loved it. :) I've got Black Holes and Baby Universes by my bed right now.
I had the same problem you did with the Silmarillion. It reads like the Bible or a history text. It is very dry. I suggest trying it as an audiobook also, as it seems that it was meant for being spoken aloud (you'll know what I mean if you ever hear it). I converted all 13cds to MP3. The quality is pretty good and its only 635mb for the whole thing. I cannot have been the only one to have done this.
-
the silmarillion is 138 cd's?????????????? holy c**p
-
Originally posted by KillMeNow
the silmarillion is 138 cd's?????????????? holy c**p
THIRTEEN. But that's not very large. I have a few audiobooks that go much much higher. I have one that goes to 26.
-
opps yeah 13 is what i ment - just i spilt water on my keyboard and now some keys like the 3 thats about the letter produces 38
anyway tahts alot of cd's
-
Originally posted by mikhael
Do you mean A Brief History of Time? I didn't find this tedious at all. I loved it. :) I've got Black Holes and Baby Universes by my bed right now.
mikhael, you are a braver man than I....
Yeah, I did mean A Brief History of Time. I screwed up the title because I didn't remember it correctly. My copy is at home in DC, but I'm in NY. When I tried to read it, I didn't find it tedious per se, but I could never get past the first chapter, even after four attempts. I have no idea why.
Originally posted by mikhael
I had the same problem you did with the Silmarillion. It reads like the Bible or a history text. It is very dry. I suggest trying it as an audiobook also, as it seems that it was meant for being spoken aloud (you'll know what I mean if you ever hear it). I converted all 13cds to MP3. The quality is pretty good and its only 635mb for the whole thing. I cannot have been the only one to have done this.
So the Simarillion is available in CD format? COOL.... I think I'll get a copy as soon as I can.:D:D:D:D:D;7
-
Originally posted by mikhael
THIRTEEN. But that's not very large. I have a few audiobooks that go much much higher. I have one that goes to 26.
How much do these things cost? Where do you get them from? I'm interested. :)
-
25I got the power !!!!:D:D:D
-
Originally posted by mikhael
The Ents did not exist in Middle Earth before the Valar came. The Ents were created by one of the first of the Valar to come to Arda. I cannot remember the Vala's name. I know it wasn't Manwe or Ulmo.
As I recall, the Creation of the Ents and the Elves are what inspired Manwe (was it Manwe? I can't recall) to create the Dwarves in secret.
Actually, it's the other way around. After the Dwarves were created, the Valar responsible for the forests (don't ask me any names) was afraid that they'd destroy her creations, because they would certainly need the wood and other materials from the forests for their creations, so she asked if she could make her own people to protect the forests - and the Ents were born. That's before the Elves had awoken, and the Dwarves were still sleeping too (Iluvatar only allowed them to live under the condition that they would only awake after the Elves had arrived) - so it's true to say that the Ents were the first people of Middle Earth, with the Exception of the Valar and Maiar (which were not from Middle Earth any way).
And the thing about the creation of the Dwarves is not that Iluvatar felt pity for them because they were afraid - they were only afraid because Iluvatar had allowed them to live laready, their free will (demonstrated by the fact that they wanted to live) was Iluvatar's gift, and proof of his approval of the new race. Nothing can live without the Undying Flame (or whatever it's called in english, I only know the name in portuguese), and only Iluvatar can give it.
-
Originally posted by Styxx
Nothing can live without the Undying Flame (or whatever it's called in english, I only know the name in portuguese), and only Iluvatar can give it.
Right, in English, it's called the "Flame Imperishable," so it's not that different from "Undying Flame." Very similar, in fact.
-
Ah, cool. It could be translated into that too... I just got the easier alternative (what almost never works when it comes to Tolkien :D ).
-
Originally posted by venom2506
yeah, true, I forgot that, and the Numenor realm are now the waste lands in the north of Middle Earth.
Are you really sure about that? Numenor was an island (some could say it was a small continent) in the west, far away from Middle Earth. In the north (northwest, actually) of Middle Earth there were once the lands of Beleriand, but those were destroyed too, when the Valar accepted to help elfs and men against Morgoth. And that's quite an interesting story too, because Morgoth was bound to the lands as Sauron was to the One Ring, so the Valar had no choice but to destroy Beleriand.
And now just a minor correction... I said Numenor was destroyed, but it was actually just sank.
-
well, that's what's written on the map anyway I think.
-
I stand corrected on the Noldor/Teleri thingy. My mistake.
You can get the complete Silmarillion on tape. Its about 14 hours and read by Martin Shaw. I've got it.
Yavanna was the Valar (well Valier actualy since she was a Queen of the Valar) who feared for the forests and trees.
Morgoth was bound to the lands
I don't think that Morgoth was bound to the land as you say. The general destruction of Beleriand was just because of the battling Valar againest the various forces that Morgoth had cooked up, which weas quite a lot as it 'had become great beyond count'.
Just to clarify, Numenor was an island.
Just the change the subject slightly. How did Gollum get out of the Mines of Moria? According to 'Unfinished Tales' had got thje the West Door (thought which the Fellowship entered) and followed them back to the eastern door, therefore he was behind them. Gandalf the has the fight with the balrog, and the Bridge of Khazad-dum is destroyed. In the book the Bridge is described as 'an ancient defence...against any ememy that might capure the First Hall and the outer passages' suggesing that to get out one must have to cross it. Therefore if Gollum was behind the Fellowship he would of had a hard job crossing the now destroyed bridge. Does this strike anyone as being odd?
Of course its more than possible that Gollum got overtook the Fellowship before they were attacked and was over the Bridge long before they were. Just somthing to think about.
-
actually, there's just a small portion of the bridge that is destroyed, and gollum could have just jumped over it. Or he could just have wait for the gobelins to somehow "repair" it. He also could have just run on the ceiling, i'm sure he can if there's enough things to hook to.
-
About Gollum: Yeah, he could have crawled over the ceiling as venom said, but I'm more inclinied to agree with Tar-Palantir.
I think it's more likely that when Pippin caused the ruckus with the skeleton in Balin's tomb, Gollum heard that and said "SH-T!" to himself and ran for the East entrance. As soon as Gollum heard the noise, he knew that the Orcs were going to be on the Fellowship like white on rice, so he ran for the bridge ahead of the Fellowship and crossed it before they did, then just waited for them to cross the bridge and started following Frodo again once the Fellowship was across.
Oh, change of topic: I just bought a copy of the 13 CD audiobook of the Simarillion only two hours ago! DUDES, IT ROCKS! I've only listened to the first part of the Ainulindale, but Martin Shaw has a great voice. I've never been a big fan of audiobooks, but Shaw really does the reading justice.
I HIGHLY reccommend this audiobook. :D I managed to find a copy of it (the only one!) at Border Books and Music. If you guys have a Borders bookstore near you, you should be able to find the Simarillion audio CD book without too much trouble. If worse comes to worst, there's always Amazon.com; they should be able to get you a copy in a few weeks. :nod:
-
Originally posted by Su-tehp
Oh, change of topic: I just bought a copy of the 13 CD audiobook of the Simarillion only two hours ago! DUDES, IT ROCKS! I've only listened to the first part of the Ainulindale, but Martin Shaw has a great voice. I've never been a big fan of audiobooks, but Shaw really does the reading justice.
I HIGHLY reccommend this audiobook. :D I managed to find a copy of it (the only one!) at Border Books and Music. If you guys have a Borders bookstore near you, you should be able to find the Simarillion audio CD book without too much trouble. If worse comes to worst, there's always Amazon.com; they should be able to get you a copy in a few weeks. :nod:
Damn right. :lol: I never recommend lemons. ;)
Just wait until you get to the Lay of Beren and Luthien. That, I think, is when Shaw shows the power of his voice and the power of Tolkien's prose.
-
Originally posted by Tar-Palantir
I don't think that Morgoth was bound to the land as you say.
Oh, he was.
See Hystory of Middle-Earth 10 - Morgoth's Ring.
-
when Pippin caused the ruckus with the skeleton in Balin's tomb
Except in the book Pippin doesn't cause any ruckus with a skeleton in the tomb, he drops a stone down a well thingy much earlier on in the trip through the mines. Gollum might have leggged it then instead.
Regarding the Morgoth bound to the land thingy. Do you mind if I remain unconvinced for the moment? Nowhere have I read in Tolkiens work that he was bound to the land, doesn't mean its not true though. Could you give a brief quote the that chapter?
One good thing witht the audio books, I now finally pronounce all the names correctly!
-
he was not "bound", but I think he couldn't leave back to Illuvatar, so I suppose it's the same :)
-
Originally posted by Tar-Palantir
Regarding the Morgoth bound to the land thingy. Do you mind if I remain unconvinced for the moment? Nowhere have I read in Tolkiens work that he was bound to the land, doesn't mean its not true though. Could you give a brief quote the that chapter?
I remember seeing a summarization on the back cover of one of the Tolkein books called Morgoth's Ring. Of course, Morgoth never had an equivalent magic ring to Sauron's One Ring, as far as I know, BUT I think the summary said something about Morgoth's power being bound to the land of Middle Earth the same way Sauron was bound to the Ring. So "all of Middle Earth is considered to be Morgoth's Ring," hence the title of the book Morgoth's Ring. (That stuff in quotes is something I paraphrased from the summary of the back cover of Morgoth's Ring.)
-
Originally posted by Tar-Palantir
Regarding the Morgoth bound to the land thingy. Do you mind if I remain unconvinced for the moment? Nowhere have I read in Tolkiens work that he was bound to the land, doesn't mean its not true though. Could you give a brief quote the that chapter?
No, I don't mind... But he was, I'm pretty sure about that.
And it's not a chapter, it's a book. It's called "Morgoth's Ring", from the "Hystory of Middle-earth" series, as I said earlier.
Su-tehp is absolutely right.
-
I'll have to look out for the book.
-
Originally posted by venom2506
how the hell can you assume that? I don't thnk it's written anywhere, and I've never heard about that either
I found it.
But he was not alone: for of the Maiar, many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness and remained in that allegience down into his darkness. And others he corrupted afterwards unto his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Dreadful among these servants were the Valarauka, the Scourges of Fire, that in Middle Earth were called the 'Balrogs', demons of terror.
Sorry about the spelling, I'm transcribing from the audiobook.
-
I just restarted the Silmarillion today on my way home from work. Shaw's voice is so right for this piece. Its magical.
Anyway, Steak asked for the hierarchy, so I paid close attention for him.
The Ainur encompasses the Valar, the Maiar and the other creatures of Iluvatar's creation before the Ainulindule and the creation of Arda. When Iluvatar gave the Ainulindule to the Ainur, he gave each a part and bade them sing it.
I had been under the misimpression that Arda was created from the Ainulindule, but that is not the case. From the Ainulindule, Iluvatar wove a vision of what could be for the Ainur, then created Arda, the Earth and told the Ainur to go make it as they had seen in the vision.
Fifteen Ainur went to Arda and became part of it and it a part of them. Of the fifteen one was cast out and the other fourteen are named the Valar. There are seven male and seven female Valar.
The Valar (kings) were Manwe, Ulmo, Aule, Orome, Mandos, Lorien and Tulkas. The Valiye (queens) were Varda, Yavana, Niena, Este, Vaire, Vana, and Nessa. Of the Valar, eight were called the 'High Ones': Manwe, Varda, Ulmo, Yavanna, Aule, Mandos, Niena and Orome.
Interestingly, four of the Ainur that came to Middle Earth are directly connected to elements: Manwe is associated with the air, Aule with the earth, Ulmo with the water, and Melkor with fire.
During the creation of Arda, Melkor and Aule fought constantly. Aule would create an ocean and Melkor would drain it. Aule would build mountains and Melkor would knock them down. Aule would dig a great canyon and Melkor would fill it.
As for the Maiar, it turns out that all the Valar--and Melkor--brought some with them. Sauron was one of Aule's earth Maia who was seduced away by Melkor (now called Morgoth).