Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Polpolion on January 08, 2009, 03:19:05 pm
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IRC people know it, maybe a few other people have seen me mention it, but everyone who's heard thought was really interesting, so I'll make a thread about it.
I'm currently taking a class called U.S. Military History. This class is an examination of leadership, military unit/command hierarchy, previous wars the U.S. was involved with, and military technology. As far as I know, the closest high school class to "History and Moral Philosophy." My teacher joined the US army in 1976, was received his commission in 1980, and retired a Major in 1994. Went to several schools in the army: Airborne, Ranger, Jungle Operations, Northern Warfare Operations, Pathfinder, Sniper, Special Forces, HALO, and Scuba-Schools and Courses, and he's fluent in 3 languages.
Anyway, after that, he came back here and made this U.S. Military History class. One of the most interesting things about his final exam is that it takes about a month of class time to do, is itself a learning experience, and all at the same time evaluates the things you've learned about leadership and military hierarchy and operations.
All throughout the year, depending on if you turn your homework in early, do an excellent job on it, you can get promoted through the ranks. Things go from Corporal all the way to Captain. Since I'm an over achiever, I'm a Captain. Now when these things really take meaning is for the final exam itself. The final exam itself is a battle set in southwest Afghanistan, using a hex based board and foam plates to denote elevation. Taliban Insurgents are trying to prevent western infidels from invading their homeland. I don't know the American objective since I'm the Taliban "Ultimate Leader". The class was split into two teams, the Taliban and the Americans, both having their own ranks and hierarchy.
My team includes myself, a Second-In-Command (2IC), an 82mm mortar commander, a T-62 commander, a T-55 commander, and 3 infantry commanders. We have AAA guns distributed among pretty much everyone. I myself have a BMP-2, a PT-76, some command vehicle that I forgot its name, but it doesn't do anything, 3 ZPUs, and one stationary 57mm flak AA gun. 2IC has a T-72 an AA gun, an anti-tank gun, and an AT-5 guided missile system. Both of my tank commanders have 4 of their respective types of tanks, and my infantry commanders each have a huge Platoon’s worth of infantry, suicide donkeys (like suicide bombers except donkeys), 3 trucks with mounted machine guns, a BMP-2, and 1 truck with an AAA gun in it. My 82mm mortar guy has one huge artillery gun and 4 82mm mortars.
I don’t know too much about the Americans other than that they are a Stryker company and have a real rank hierarchy with Officers and most NCOs. So far I’ve seen 4 105mm MGSs and about 8 Strykers with just machine guns on them.
The game itself operates with a hex grid, over-laid by a coordinate grid, ie 723261, or (72.3, 26.1) for people who like maths better. There are 4 levels of elevation, ground level, 50 feet up, 100 feet up, 150 feet up, and 200 feet up. They’re pretty much just like Starcraft cliffs, only with bigger ramps and stuff. The field is about 10km x 10km or so.
There are 2 ridge complexes on the northern two-thirds of the map, plains on the bottom third, and there’s a bombed out town in the bottom. I’ll see if I can get a scan of the map later.
The West ridge is pretty indefensible with pretty much all ramps, and the Eastern is fine, with a good amount caves and choke points.
The game itself functions as such: The beginning of everyday, we start with artillery, used by a series of two die rolls, one for where we hit and another for if we killed anything. Then there’s the movement bound, where we take the pieces we move and move them 2 hexes for infantry 12 hexes for wheeled vehicles, 8 for tracked vehicles, and 40 for airplanes (But only the Americans have airplanes).
Combat functions as such: After everyone moves, we have people roll a 12 sided die 3 times. Once to “see” the enemy, if you make that roll, then you shoot your weapon and roll again to hit them, if you make that roll you roll again to deal damage. Depending on that roll you can either have no effect, you can disable it, or kill it outright.
Anyway, we started on the north half, with the ridges. All our guys are hidden, so they can’t see us, but since they’re in Strykers moving across open land, we can see all of them.
After we learned that, starting on Monday this week, we went into secluded planning. The Americans went into a different room to plan, and we stayed in the classroom with the map. The highest rank was in charge of planning, so it was me in charge of the 7 other Taliban people.
For three and a half days, we figured out where we would put are people, when we would pull back, and what to do if we our plan went wrong or one of us died. Then, today we started the actual final.
--Day 1-- (Will be about 6 days)
No one had any artillery target, because we couldn’t see each other.
The Americans drove right up in 2 groups, one group towards the valley in between the two ridges. This group had 4 MGS 105mm Strykers and a couple normal ones, and the other had about 8 Strykers.
The group with the 105mm cannons, the just parked right out in the middle of the open and haven’t moved since. They’ll make a real nice 82mm mortar target tomorrow.
The other group is moving up along the outside of the indefensible ridge clumped up in a column, maybe trying to flank us. But we’re ready. We tried to fire an AT-5 at a Styker that passed by at 500 meters, but we couldn’t “see” it, so we stayed hidden and didn’t fire.
So far the game is looking somewhat favorable.
More updates will come as the exam progresses. :D
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This is stupendously cool.
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How do you keep track of your units? Do you have miniatures or green army men or something?
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Geez, I've always wanted something like that.
Too bad that a militaristic guy like me lives in a pacifist place like Italy... :doubt:
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How do you keep track of your units? Do you have miniatures or green army men or something?
Little miniatures. They're really tiny. The trucks are a little larger than pencil erasers, and you need to look really close at the infantry to be able to see that they are more than just warts. AFAIK, my teacher got them from the company that makes them for the Army in Minnesota. I'll see if I can get their name tomorrow, actually.
We use weird green irregularly shaped things for bushes, cut up green wire sponges for farm crops, felt for the playing field, and cotton balls for smoke and explosions. But right now, the Taliban don't have our units on the main map because the US people can't see them. I have a feeling that this final is mainly for the benefit of the people on the US team, because they have 20 people and we have 8, their rules are more in-depth than ours, and the Taliban people are the smarter team in the class (less needy to be taught?). We keep track of our units until they're found and between classes by writing down their location on a map. I'll try and scan and upload a lot of this stuff once the final is over if people are still interested.
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Very, very cool. But I would suggest making sure the Intel you post on here isn't useful to the enemy lest some cunning American finds it and gains information on your assets :D
EDIT>>
Out of curiosity are you factoring technology differences and such into your war game?
For example does a M1A2 need to roll less for detection and hitting then a T55?
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Very, very cool. But I would suggest making sure the Intel you post on here isn't useful to the enemy lest some cunning American finds it and gains information on your assets :D
I've taken that into consideration while writing my first post. Once the final exam finishes and I'm not worried that the crazy American XO is stalking me, I'll be able to re-tell everything in a lot more detail. :)
EDIT>>
Out of curiosity are you factoring technology differences and such into your war game?
For example does a M1A2 need to roll less for detection and hitting then a T55?
Yup. We have a chart for every weapon system. Although the only kind of armor the US has is Strykers (no tanks for them), these are still factored in. The Javelin Missile system is almost an insta-kill, with its "to see", "to hit", and "to kill" values all 2 or higher, but when the range is too short, it can't lock. Likewise, the 105mm Strykers can pretty much always win against any of our armor (With exception to our sole T-72, possibly). And if our T-72 decides to deploy smoke, the enemy air forces and the 105mm Strykers can just use thermals, so they won't be hampered. So we needed to plan our tactics to use close-range combat pretty much all the time. My infantry won't come streaming out of the caves until the enemy is at the doorstep, and the infantry that's not in caves, yet also hidden throughout the map will wait until the enemy is surrounded and very close in to shoot.
EDIT: fixed a grammar error.
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Geez, I've always wanted something like that.
Too bad that a militaristic guy like me lives in a pacifist place like Italy... :doubt:
You can be a pacifist and still enjoy wargames -- I'm sure there are other wargamers around.
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That class is made of win. :yes:
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Geez, I've always wanted something like that.
Too bad that a militaristic guy like me lives in a pacifist place like Italy... :doubt:
You can be a pacifist and still enjoy wargames -- I'm sure there are other wargamers around.
You can, It's just I think part of the reason that I'm having so much fun is that I've taken this class with my enemies and my allies. I sat next to my 2IC for 90% of the time in the class. I used to play my 1st infantry commander's baseball team in 6th grade. The American's XO was in my programming class last year, and I went to grade school with one of their Platoon leaders. I've gotten to recognize everyone else in the class, and no we've got to - not literally fight - but work together as a team for the final, and play the game as a class that has been together for a whole semester.
But seriously, Mobius, General Battuta is right; find a wargamer's club, or make one if you have too. It's real fun even if you don't know everyone you're fighting with. :D
Oh BTW, in case everyone was wondering; Grading for the final isn't based on victory or defeat. It's based on how well you follow your orders (or in my case how well I give them), leadership skills, common sense tactics. It's possible to lose pretty badly and still ace the final exam, although generally, the people who are more successful in the battle on an individual level will have a somewhat higher grade than those who were killed by their own artillery. :nod:
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blah blah blah fake violence :\
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blah blah blah fake violence :\
You obviously haven't read my posts in their entirety, or you'd be able to tell that violence isn't the goal of this final, or even this class. And do you honestly think that a retired officer, an 18 year veteran, would get a teaching degree just to play games and watch violent movies with teenagers? The assumption you've made of this class is really quite inaccurate and shallow.
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ok then, blah blah blah fake military
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Better. :p
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Actually the donkeys do make sense, ethnic Afghans especially Pastuns from the northern regions really weren't into martyrdom, when the ISI would suggest suicide bombings on Soviet forces the Afghans refused.
Is your operations area actually modeled after real Afghan territory like the Panjshir valley? Since you are the "home team" do you get to set up minefields and prepared positions for your armor?
Are your tanks bog standard T55s and T62s? I would assume a lot of your armor is probably ex Republican Guard that the CIA shipped in after Desert Storm. At least until 1991 they probably received pretty good upkeep. I haven't really looked into 105mm Strykers but I assume since they are based off an IFV that your tanks would be a bit more robust in close range?
Most importantly is the US task force air mobile? As you probably know from your studies helicopter gunships and air mobile Spetnatz were probably the most effective tools in combating the Mujahideen.
If answering gives anything away i perfectly understand, but it does sound like a very neat project :D
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Actually the donkeys do make sense, ethnic Afghans especially Pastuns from the northern regions really weren't into martyrdom, when the ISI would suggest suicide bombings on Soviet forces the Afghans refused.
Is your operations area actually modeled after real Afghan territory like the Panjshir valley? Since you are the "home team" do you get to set up minefields and prepared positions for your armor?
Are your tanks bog standard T55s and T62s? I would assume a lot of your armor is probably ex Republican Guard that the CIA shipped in after Desert Storm. At least until 1991 they probably received pretty good upkeep. I haven't really looked into 105mm Strykers but I assume since they are based off an IFV that your tanks would be a bit more robust in close range?
Most importantly is the US task force air mobile? As you probably know from your studies helicopter gunships and air mobile Spetnatz were probably the most effective tools in combating the Mujahideen.
If answering gives anything away i perfectly understand, but it does sound like a very neat project :D
The area IIRC is modeled after land miles southwest of Khost province, I don't know exactly where, though.
We managed to dig in our armor to hidden potions inside buildings and ramped dugouts beneath bushes, so they have adequate cover until they need to pop out.
I'm pretty sure the only airlifting the US will be doing is moving wounded. We have pretty decent AA capacities, actually. But if they use air recon intelligently, we're pretty much screwed. I know that one of the different hours was already able to take out an A-10 with their 57mm gun at a decent range, and if you add in our single SAM and bunch of ZPUs and trucks, we should be fine against most hostile CAS.
One thing I really want to do is be able to attack their Strykers quickly, before they can disembark their infantry. That would make things so much easier, because we wouldn't need to deal with their javilin gunners then, which is pretty much our biggest threat since they only have 4 105mm, and in their current position can be easily engaged with our 82 mils.
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I imagine that in real life the US would have a lot more air support.
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I imagine that in real life the US would have a lot more air support.
I wouldn't think it's that easy to airlift Strykers, but they will have AH-64s, A-10s, F-16, or whatever ground attack craft available to them from day to day. It's just that many hours neglect to deploy them effectively.
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One of my finals was watching Bambi. I'm not kidding.
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This sounds quite interesting.
One of my finals was watching Bambi. I'm not kidding.
:wtf: :lol:
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Wow, this is totally awesome. Have fun and good luck!
But be careful with your decisions, because you never know:
(http://doug-johnson.squarespace.com/storage/endersgame.jpg)
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Will shooting that vehicle out in the open give away your mortar's position?
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Is this game by any chance based on a similar game taught to officers at west point?
I know an ex-cadet who went to ADFA (Australian Defence Force Academy) and told us about a game they had 'borrowed' from west point which sounded a lot like what you're doing
...I wish that was a universal subject
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Probably depends on the range, i don't think mortar round give away smoke trails so as long as they don't see or hear the actual launch point it should probably take them quite a while to figure it out. A typical artillery attack on a convoy involves popping the lead vehicle(s) first. Since the enemy cant see or hear the round being fired the convoy usually assumes they hit a mine and stop. At that point the artillery hits the rear vehicles trapping the rest in between and starts walking their fire over the rest. Granted a 81mm mortar doesn't have the same range as a 155mm artillery piece but with a maximum range of 5,675 m it should be able to get a few rounds off without the enemy being able to triangulate where its coming from.
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Will shooting that vehicle out in the open give away your mortar's position?
Not unless the American forces realize they can use their radar to track the trajectory of the rounds to the start position, which they probably won't realize they can do. :drevil:
Is this game by any chance based on a similar game taught to officers at west point?
I know an ex-cadet who went to ADFA (Australian Defence Force Academy) and told us about a game they had 'borrowed' from west point which sounded a lot like what you're doing
...I wish that was a universal subject
The packet said it was actually a really common game. It originated as a platoon/company level exercise for training officers and NCOs, and my teacher adapted it for classroom use. I wouldn't be suprised at all if West Pointers, the ADFA cadet, and us are all playing the same game. That is if it is actually a game. Agent Koopa brought up a good point. Hopefully we won't be destroying any planets, though. :nervous:
Probably depends on the range, i don't think mortar round give away smoke trails so as long as they don't see or hear the actual launch point it should probably take them quite a while to figure it out. A typical artillery attack on a convoy involves popping the lead vehicle(s) first. Since the enemy cant see or hear the round being fired the convoy usually assumes they hit a mine and stop. At that point the artillery hits the rear vehicles trapping the rest in between and starts walking their fire over the rest. Granted a 81mm mortar doesn't have the same range as a 155mm artillery piece but with a maximum range of 5,675 m it should be able to get a few rounds off without the enemy being able to triangulate where its coming from.
More confession time: We wanted to spread out our mortars in an effort to minimize the chances of hostiles stumbling upon our nest and killing all of them, so we pretty much put them in different corners of the map. One mortar is in the little town. Right next to where the Americans started. There's combat engineers and APCs like 50 meters away from that mortar position. Thankfully, we're still hiding in the basements of buildings until it's time to shoot. We won't be using this mortar until we're sure that the other side won't use their radar or has enough of their forces engaged to not be able to split combat forces off to take it out.
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Ha ha, radar noobs.
Keep us updated every day! I find it riveting.
Do you guys get SA-7s? Or just the vehicle AAA?
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Ha ha, radar noobs.
Keep us updated every day! I find it riveting.
Do you guys get SA-7s? Or just the vehicle AAA?
We have 1 SA-7! One rocket, one shot! Then all there is 3 ZPUs, 3 trucks AAA, and 1 57mm.
Oh I forget if I said this, but in my teacher's first hour class (I'm fifth hour), the US forces already managed to sortie an A-10, and the Taliban already downed it with the 57mm! From inside a building, too!
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That's not going to look good on CNN.
Is there a damage system? Or is it just one-hit-one-kill?
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That's not going to look good on CNN.
Is there a damage system? Or is it just one-hit-one-kill?
he said u roll a dice to determine it
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I was more of wondering if the no effect/disable/kill roll was different for different units.
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AFAIK that's factored into the roll for "to kill", but you also can immobilize/knock out guns from vehicles.
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AFAIK that's factored into the roll for "to kill", but you also can immobilize/knock out guns from vehicles.
I'd like to see someone immobilize an A-10 Thunderbolt traveling at 300 mphs (at least) flying at 2000 ft AGL (above ground)
:lol:
dw i joke hehe
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Why... this not been made into a MMO.. is beyond me.
America's Army was made...
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Why... this not been made into a MMO.. is beyond me.
America's Army was made...
But it's a board game!
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Why... this not been made into a MMO.. is beyond me.
America's Army was made...
But it's a board game!
Give it a 3D map and i might play this more than freespace
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Hmm.
Is the game based on the D20 system?
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Hmm.
Is the game based on the D20 system?
No. It doesn't sound like a commercial game. It's something his teacher scrounged together from experience and (to what degree I don't know) games used in officer training.
Right?
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There are DOZENS or miniature based combat systems. Many have been used for things like this, some very detailed systems out there. Hobby shops used to be glutted with them.
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--Day 2--
Artillery and mortar fire both missed their targets. We're just unlucky.
We picked up where we left off. My 2IC fired an AT-5 again at enemy strykers, missed, and then got shot and killed. I sent a nearby AK squad into recover the gun, but it's being suppressed by enemy .50 cal fire from 2000 meters.
Their 105mm stryker group moved further into the valley, and according to the teacher is dangerously close to securing their objective. What the 105mm strykers don't know is that they're surrounded by tanks, AT guns and RPGs. The other stryker group is still moving back into our rear flank, pretty much going to move right into other RPG and tank groups. I'm moving almost all of our infantry through caves to support this, because they're ignoring the other side of the map. They still can barely see us, the only ones they can see is our suicide donkeys and single AK squad.
I didn't really know how to deploy our suicide donkeys, so I just put them all up on this ridge, and now they're charging towards the enemy stryker groups. For some stupid reason, some guy tried to shoot at them with a javelin missile. I'm guessing you all know how that turned out :p.
Other than that, not much happened today, but a lot is going to happen in just the first direct-fire bound tomorrow. :D
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Sounds very interesting. Can you destroy their air recon on the ground? That would be almost a sure way to win--if you can take out their air support, you can't be seen as easily. Other than that, yeah keep hiding. Are they able to raid/investigate buildings?
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If he can hide in buildings, I'd say yes....
And why an engineering unit is 50 meters from a mortar, and doesn't bother to search the town is beyond me....
Oh- and if you find that .50 cal sniper (or MG, whatever), say hello to him from me with an artillery shell.
EDIT: Before they figure out that Engineers know how to CQB, I suggest using ALL mortar shells and turning them into the MOAIED, or Mother Of All IED's.
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For some stupid reason, some guy tried to shoot at them with a javelin missile. I'm guessing you all know how that turned out :p.
He missed? :confused:
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For some stupid reason, some guy tried to shoot at them with a javelin missile. I'm guessing you all know how that turned out :p.
He missed? :confused:
Javelins are strictly an anti-vehicle weapon. They don't work so well against our hordes of suicide donkeys. Once it arced up at ~3000m or whatever, it couldn't find its target because its target wasn't a large vehicle.
If he can hide in buildings, I'd say yes....
And why an engineering unit is 50 meters from a mortar, and doesn't bother to search the town is beyond me....
Oh- and if you find that .50 cal sniper (or MG, whatever), say hello to him from me with an artillery shell.
EDIT: Before they figure out that Engineers know how to CQB, I suggest using ALL mortar shells and turning them into the MOAIED, or Mother Of All IED's.
I guess they just don't expect our guys to be that far south. And I will say hello to the .50 cal gun for you, but would a 125mm depleted uranium round fired from a T-72 inside a building at point-blank range suffice instead of a mortar shell?
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For some stupid reason, some guy tried to shoot at them with a javelin missile. I'm guessing you all know how that turned out :p.
He missed? :confused:
Javelins are strictly an anti-vehicle weapon. They don't work so well against our hordes of suicide donkeys. Once it arced up at ~3000m or whatever, it couldn't find its target because its target wasn't a large vehicle.
Ah, okay. He must have thought he could counter the donkeys with sheer firepower or something. :nervous:
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Why not avoid direct-engagement until they're just about to figure out that you can hide in buildings? Anyways--I'd say engage a few front-line units and send them to the back to the engineering unit. When they're about to arrive, destroy the engineers. :D Make them waste time and then slaughter the returning tanks.
Anyways--with the donkeys--how much damage can they do?
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I think one of the best things you could do right now, that is, after taking out the Strykers, is to take out the US CAS and recon forces, because information is their only advantage at this point[that we know of]. Should also send one little ingsignificant unit down the side of the map they're ignoring so you can see what they've got cookin. btw, I wish I had that class :nod:
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Why not avoid direct-engagement until they're just about to figure out that you can hide in buildings? Anyways--I'd say engage a few front-line units and send them to the back to the engineering unit. When they're about to arrive, destroy the engineers. :D Make them waste time and then slaughter the returning tanks.
Anyways--with the donkeys--how much damage can they do?
The problem is, the Americans have a mission to accomplish. We weren't just put on the board and told "kill each other". I don't know their objective, but I think it has something to do with the crops in the valley, in which I have a few tanks hiding, a truck, a ZPU, and 5 RPGs.
And the donkeys; I'm really not sure how much damage they can do. I'm using them more as a distraction. I mean, what would you do if randomly you saw an epic donkey charge? If they ignore the donkeys and keep moving, eventually the donkeys will catch up and kill them when they're fighting our main forces. If the see them then, then our main forces will kill them while they're killing the charging donkeys.
I think one of the best things you could do right now, that is, after taking out the Strykers, is to take out the US CAS and recon forces, because information is their only advantage at this point[that we know of]. Should also send one little ingsignificant unit down the side of the map they're ignoring so you can see what they've got cookin. btw, I wish I had that class :nod:
The thing is, once we take out the strykers, we've won. They're a stryker company; everything they have is in strykers: their artillery, their engineers, their infantry, their big guns, their commanders. We need to know which strykers to take out. We take out the right ones, we cripple their leadership and maybe we'll kill their air operater and prevent more CAS runs.
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Ahh....I see. I doubt they would have immediately gone to endgame though. Their main forces are somewhere else. Unless they're that stupid, of course :doubt:
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I guess they just don't expect our guys to be that far south. And I will say hello to the .50 cal gun for you, but would a 125mm depleted uranium round fired from a T-72 inside a building at point-blank range suffice instead of a mortar shell?
No, it would not :p
Because DU (BTW- didn't Russians stick to Tungsten?) will not explode with tons of shrapnel flying around, no fireballs, shockwaves or any of the eye candy found in the mediavp's....
Unless you really want to drill a 0.5 meter hole through the whole house, barn and half way through the next house that is. I'd personally use plunging fire through the roof and watch the blast throw our friend 20 yards outside of the building he's camping in.
And why sacrifice a tank and the information you have tanks in houses for a fifty?
When they find that out, you can kiss the towns' collective @$$es goodbye, because there are dumb@$$es in command of the US force, who will go brutal when outsmarted.
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I guess they just don't expect our guys to be that far south. And I will say hello to the .50 cal gun for you, but would a 125mm depleted uranium round fired from a T-72 inside a building at point-blank range suffice instead of a mortar shell?
No, it would not :p
Because DU (BTW- didn't Russians stick to Tungsten?) will not explode with tons of shrapnel flying around, no fireballs, shockwaves or any of the eye candy found in the mediavp's....
Unless you really want to drill a 0.5 meter hole through the whole house, barn and half way through the next house that is. I'd personally use plunging fire through the roof and watch the blast throw our friend 20 yards outside of the building he's camping in.
And why sacrifice a tank and the information you have tanks in houses for a fifty?
When they find that out, you can kiss the towns' collective @$$es goodbye, because there are dumb@$$es in command of the US force, who will go brutal when outsmarted.
Well, part of the reason that I'd trade that info is because that .50 is mounted on a stryker 105mm MGS that has the American's XO in it. And because next combat bound, all hell is going to break loose and all the guys in buildings will start shooting anyway. And they won't bomb the town because their rules of engagement prohibits it. :nod:
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Here's an idea for deploying the suicide donkeys. Are there any unoccupied towns on the map? If so, you could leave a couple of donkeys in a town the US is heading towards, and set them off as the forces set in. However it would probably cause the US forces to search the towns looking for your guys then. Although if you were to go for a direct fire scenario, put the donkeys inside houses in a town that you occupy, but not in the same houses as your guys. Send them charging out, set them off, and then in the chaos, open up with your AK squads and missile units. If things go badly and you're forced to fight to the last man, once you "lose" in the town, open up with any nearby mortars.
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Well... I was workin with limited info :p
An APDS will work fine against a Stryker (hell, it's an IFV, not an M1A2...). A lot better than mortars, against which the Stryker is pretty much protected.
And don't forget what the Russians think about rules of engagement. And don't forget that the rules will change as soon as there's shooting from the houses.
I give that T-72 some 30 seconds of life unless they begin to panic.
BTW- perhaps the rules don't allow them to enter any building without a search warrant...?
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This reminds me rather a great deal of a WinSP:MBT scenario I saw once...even the suicide donkeys. It's a good scenario, but a poor reflection of reality, because in practice the US Army would bring the whole thing down on your heads with artillery. Protecting the artillery observer while he calls down unimaginable amounts of firepower on their foes is more or less what the Army does, on the philosophy that it's better to expend things then people.
Crappy strategy by US, but then, I'm pretty sure they're stuck with it because there is more or less a "turn limit" imposed on them because it's a final and they feel they need to secure their objectives while they still have the time...which is a typical reaction to such things by a new player to wargames. Learning to wait and let your artillery work things over comes slow. 's not entirely fair to them to throw them into this situation with no experience, as you learn offense harder then you learn defense. If you were up against a seasoned Steel Panthers player, you'd be in a lot more trouble, as it stands, I expect you to make a decent fight of it.
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I mean, what would you do if randomly you saw an epic donkey charge? If they ignore the donkeys and keep moving, eventually the donkeys will catch up and kill them when they're fighting our main forces. If the see them then, then our main forces will kill them while they're killing the charging donkeys.
LOL at the epic donkey charge, I just have this image of a bunch of jack asses loaded down with IEDs ambling down the mountain side to something like the soundtrack of Reqium for a Dream or Last of the Mohicans :D
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This reminds me rather a great deal of a WinSP:MBT scenario I saw once...even the suicide donkeys. It's a good scenario, but a poor reflection of reality, because in practice the US Army would bring the whole thing down on your heads with artillery. Protecting the artillery observer while he calls down unimaginable amounts of firepower on their foes is more or less what the Army does, on the philosophy that it's better to expend things then people.
Crappy strategy by US, but then, I'm pretty sure they're stuck with it because there is more or less a "turn limit" imposed on them because it's a final and they feel they need to secure their objectives while they still have the time...which is a typical reaction to such things by a new player to wargames. Learning to wait and let your artillery work things over comes slow. 's not entirely fair to them to throw them into this situation with no experience, as you learn offense harder then you learn defense. If you were up against a seasoned Steel Panthers player, you'd be in a lot more trouble, as it stands, I expect you to make a decent fight of it.
But their ROE prevents the US from laying arty down on the town
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What kind of Battlemechs can the Taliban field and does the US have access to Clan technology?
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What kind of Battlemechs can the Taliban field and does the US have access to Clan technology?
This.
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What kind of Battlemechs can the Taliban field and does the US have access to Clan technology?
We've managed to get a pair of Ullers from the Russians, but I don't think the Terran forces are expecting that, so their single medium lance is held in reserve.
(:p)
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:D That made my day.
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What did you think happened to that giant statue of Buddha that the Talibani supposedly demolished? :nervous:
Suicide donkeys remind me of Incendiary Pigs... Damn, now I want battle mechas on Rome:Total War.
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This is unimaginably cool.
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This is unimaginably cool.
Amen
Why the hell don't they teach that in all schools!?
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Because it's violence!!!
http://www.snopes.com/military/reinwald.asp
Proven false, but the Interviewer is a perfect portrait of the anti-gun crowd.
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Arguably because, in the unsuspecting or uneducated, it breeds the idea that warfare is much like a clever and engaging wargame, rather than a horrifying and atrocious waste of life.
It's darn cool, but I don't think most people would be able to separate how cool it is from how incredibly awful it is.
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Arguably because, in the unsuspecting or uneducated, it breeds the idea that warfare is much like a clever and engaging wargame, rather than a horrifying and atrocious waste of life.
It's darn cool, but I don't think most people would be able to separate how cool it is from how incredibly awful it is.
Do you speak from personal experience or life experience? Excuse me for asking, but you kinda sound like my Uncle who speaks from 25 years of experience.
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Ha, no. Just educated guesswork. And a lot of literature.
I have nowhere near the wisdom or experience of your uncle, and if he disagrees with me, go with him. I'm sure it varies from person to person, and everyone has to make their own choice.
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Damn, this is awesome. Wish I had it too. Pity the mortar strike went wrong.
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Ha, no. Just educated guesswork. And a lot of literature.
I have nowhere near the wisdom or experience of your uncle, and if he disagrees with me, go with him. I'm sure it varies from person to person, and everyone has to make their own choice.
No actually he would completely agree with you, but at the same time he'll do what needs to get done. After he just took his geo job after he left the commando regiment he was going through a 'phase' when the only thing he could really talk about was his experience, the war, ...guns etc. But now he's kind of gone into a closed state where all of his traumatic memories are coming back to him and he isn't too keen to talk about his tour(s) of duty. Such as what I said before about having to use a dead mate in place of sandbags at a place called Elephant Pass in which his section became overrun (The SL Commando Regiments typically only engage at a section level, as their missions such as observing enemy troop movements, deep strike etc generally don't require a platoon to accomplish). He used to talk about the adrenaline rush during the engagement (lasted a while I think) when he was nigh on sprinting through farmland and treelines in an effort to fall back to the actual base at Elephant Pass, and how he could barely see what he was doing etc.
Then about a year ago he told us about how he was lying in a treeline opening fire on muzzle flashes in the distance and saw his S.A.W. gunner running towards him and how he was in such a heightened state he wasn't sure if he had accidentally pulled the trigger on his own gunner, and how he turned to move and slipped and had to pull his (now dead) gunner in front of him while he scrounged around in the dirt for his weapon (most likely an M16... not a good idea turning up at his and asking). He was nearly crying by the time he got to the part about how the adrenaline seemed to immediately subside and turned his s gunner towards him and saw a heap of holes ripped into his vest.
Wow... I think I just had a rant then
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I think we can all agree that real war is no fun... but final exams based on it might be.
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Wow, Dilmah, that's some pretty crazy stuff. I hope he finds peace with it, but I really don't blame him for being a little shook up.
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But their ROE prevents the US from laying arty down on the town
Except it's not the whole map. You start with a barrage on anything that makes for a commanding posistion and you advance scouts, keeping your main force back and safe from direct attack. You have to be methodical, and you have to remember the potentional to stick your neck in a noose is very real. Like I said, it's very much like a game of Steel Panthers, the urge to rush for your objectives is strong, but you've got to resist it and take your time. It takes time to learn that.
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--Day 3--
Neither of our artillery did anything. Again.
Well, they sprung our ambush. They were completely surrounded by an AT-5 three T-55s, two T-62s, a T-72, and a bunch of RPGs. We took out 3 MGSs, and we would've gotten the fourth, but one girl was a ****ing retard and put it down on its side, so we thought it was already dead. But it wasn't. So she said "oh, this guys not dead. I'm going to shoot that T-72." Since we had already shot another stryker, we were helpless, and a DU round blew it up. Pissed me off a lot.
Anyway, next bound, all the Americans charge in closer, our donkeys charged in closer, and more combat. We took out a few other strykers, and lost most of our tanks due to the other advancing line of strykers with javelins, our tanks having exposed themselves the previous bound. Our surviving T-62 advanced on the last MGS, and they both shot at each other at point blank range. A DU round and a Sabot round both hit their targets, but neither had any effect. At point blank range. :blah:
The previously mentioned stryker group that took out most of our tanks with Javelins was close in now, right next to some farm crops, where we had 5 RPG troops hiding in. We took out 1 stryker, and lost 1 RPG soldier. A satisfactory trade.
All in all, we lost nearly all of our tanks, but took out just as many strykers. And we haven't even touched most of our infantry yet.
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Cheating girls putting armoured vehicles on their sides, the main reason why America is able to conquer Afghanistan :) Pity about the T-72 though.
Does artillery deal collateral damage to your own troops in a close-range fight?
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--Day 4--
We started off focusing on the valley with our T-62 facing the enemy MGS, just like yesterday, and the MGS tried to run away the long way past my tank. My tank charged after it and rammed its backside and fired a shot into it to take it out. Then an RPG took out another Stryker, but then both of our guys in the valley died. Our Donkeys continued their most noble charge, our lost AT-5 was recovered and started moving towards the other ridge through the valley.
The enemy strykers that were in the valley, with one group completely wiped out and the other really stupid, they continued past their objective and onto the other ridge complex. The one with all of our infantry in it. Coincidentally, they walked right past the cave entrance that had 2 of our 3 infantry groups in. Our BMP-2s and a few trucks were coming around the direction they were headed. Needless to say, we're expecting them to poop themselves when they see an entire 200 meter stretch of cliff side coated with infantry. And then our 3rd infantry unit, the one with all of its RPGs left, hasn't encountered anyone yet.
Things are going all right.
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Excellent work, brother! You'll show those infidel scum!
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Excellent work, brother! You'll show those infidel scum!
ALLAH AKBAR!!!!
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Artillery fire on ridgelines: It's not a waste, it's a way of life. At this point I think your opponents are doing everything wrong simply to make me throw a fit. :P Although at this point I'm also pretty sure this scenario was probably broken from the word go, as this is much too many armored vehicles for the Taliban.
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as this is much too many armored vehicles for the Taliban.
Balance Issues?
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as this is much too many armored vehicles for the Taliban.
Balance Issues?
See, some people can work balance and reality into the same scenario, some can't. :P
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ALLAH AKBAR!!!!
IT'S A TARP!
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as this is much too many armored vehicles for the Taliban.
Balance Issues?
See, some people can work balance and reality into the same scenario, some can't. :P
Respectfully, it sounds like his instructor is...pretty well versed in this stuff.
Frighteningly so.
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--Day 5--
We started off today with the combat bound that was interrupted yesterday. Yesterday, the enemy had 3 strykers right smack dab in front of a cave opening, so we popped out and shot them all. We blew up all 3 strykers and gunned down a bunch of the infantry that hobbled out of the wrecks. Their survivors are retreating towards their remaining strykers in the open, so we just retreated back into the caves, intending to regroup with our remaining light armor and possibly counterattack.
Other than that, they called in 2 A-10s, even though all of our heavy armor already did all the damage it needed to do. But we have ZPUs and anti-air guns all over the map, so hopefully they'll stray into range of one of them.
Well, I doubt that they'll be stupid enough to randomly stray into any of our traps, but you never know.
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As for the balancing, I can't really see any other way to do it. If you just give us a ****load of infantry, that will be even more difficult, because our infantry is even more handicapped, and plus, it would be way too hard to manage it all. We can't split the class up 50-50 because then the US forces wouldn't have a full company, and the Taliban don't really have that kind of force hierarchy. How would you try and balance it, NGTM-1R?
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More infantry is the answer, but probably specialized; ATGM teams most likely, still with a couple of tanks (T-55s or T-62s); BTRs instead of BMPs (which were apparently extranous anyways); extensive mining of the terrain. Protecting light armor like Strykers from infantry isn't easy and one of the first mistakes your opponents made was not to dismount their infantry and use it as a screen for the Strykers (who in turn probably should have screened the MGS Strykers).
It would get rather unwieldy with that many infantry on the board, perhaps, although not totally unmanageable if you replaced each tank with a pair of ATGM teams or three or four RPG teams with reloads. But yes, more or less this would kill you on your time constraints.
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Yeah, it's pretty dumb to move armor through broken terrain without an infantry screen.
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Out of curiosity
Did your course teach Armour/Infantry/Aircraft tactics? Or would that be ripping off West Point too much hehe
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No, he did not teach any tactics. He did, however give us all a CD with all of the semester's material on it, and there is a neat little power point presentation hidden in there about it, but he didn't present it in class at all.
I'm going to see if I can take some pictures of the board either tomorrow or the day after.
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--Day 6--
First of all, I did take pictures, but I have to wait until I get home to upload them.
After that ambush when the enemy ground infantry that survived retreated, our guys advanced and tried to take off the .50 cals. Unfortunately, the enemy took them when they retreated yesterday, so all we got was the M240 machine guns on them. Still good though; we killed a few of them and wounded them while they were retreating. Other than that, we started regrouping for another assault. The suicide donkeys, TBH, weren't really meant to do anything more than distract the enemy. Every single enemy stryker, which can move six times as fast as the donkeys, were engaging the donkeys, as were the A-10s. Needless to say, the donkeys are all dead now, but we were able to regroup all of our infantry into two complete, heavily armed groups, complete with BMP and truck support.
We've also gotten two groups of civillians to steal .50 cals off of two destroyed tank and hide in a valley. The enemy CO is moving up through that valley in his stryker. Time providing, we'll be able to gun him down (It should work, because we were able to take down a stryker at one ambush with MMG fire).
Now here's the thing: Tomorrow will be like -37 degrees celcius with wind chill, and since our campus has 4 buildings and a third of the school's population walks outside every hour for about a third of a mile, we might just get school off. If that happens, the final ends. I think that it would end in our favor, seeing as how we're ready to mount a counter offensive and the enemy is retarded. They have to withdraw when they reach 15% casualties, and a lot of their guys are dismounted now because we've destroyed over half their strykers.
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Yeah, if anything like this ever happened in real-Afghanistan, it'd be a debacle for the US. Never mind that it's only a tactical defeat, those kind of things just aren't supposed to happen the US Army.
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Yeah, if anything like this ever happened in real-Afghanistan, it'd be a debacle for the US. Never mind that it's only a tactical defeat, those kind of things just aren't supposed to happen the US Army.
But it wouldn't happen in real life because US Army officers aren't high school students that have no knowledge of the capabilities of their units or tactics, thank goodness. :D
But to be honest, I think if this game was a perfect simulation, yet still with the same overall plans and actions from each side, I would only be helped. For one, all of my units in every ambush would most likely get kills because A) they had over a minute to line up their shot while in hiding B) all shots were made from less than 200m. The enemy wouldn't be able to return fire a lot of times, too, because they wouldn't be able to specifically see where my guys our. For example, when our RPG troops fired from the crops, the Americans would know they were being fired at from the crops, but AFAIK not all of their strykers have thermals and they wouldn't be able to see through the crops like we are.
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Aw poor donkeys...
Still its pretty silly that they called in CAS and used armored vehicles to eliminate them. If anything they just wasted millions of dollars of ordinance on targets that probably cost diddly squat.
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I'd like to see pictures. I actually would love to play some games like this.
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Doubt that this is on topic anymore, but that would be by dream class. My entire bookshelf is military history books.
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(http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/2567/overallflowjz9.jpg)
Overall battle. Enemy MGS and stryker group is in red, stryker only group is in blue. Our lines of fire during ambushes are in yellow. Circled yellow is our suicide donkeys. That little group single handedly distracted the entire surviving American force today. Other than them, we did not take any casualties today.
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I'm SOOOO glad you're american :p
Or is it the other team? :nervous: No offense at your classmates
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I'm SOOOO glad you're american :p
Or is it the other team? :nervous: No offense at your classmates
I live in America. I am on the Taliban team. The American team got killed. :p
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WOah that looks cool