Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: dANGER boy on January 12, 2009, 03:00:32 pm
-
I know there are a few missions in the FS2 campaign where the Hecate-class capital ship appears but are there any where it gets involved with another capital ship? I have never seen one in action. Supposedly they have crazy firepower...
-
Usually when you see a Hecate in the main campagin, its getting raped.
-
Crazy firepower? Their best weapon is a frontal BGreen, so you would be more excited by an Orion Vs. Orion battle. This happens only in-game, in the Universe the Hecate is supposed to be much better.
-
Yeah, that made me cry. The Hecate is such a majestic ship and I felt it was seriously shafted by the vanilla stats. I made a Heavy TerSlash beam to replace its woefully inefficient TerSlashes with. The end result is that, if the Hecate is facing the orion and rotated about 30 degrees to expose its flank so three beams are brought to bear, the Orion is destroyed and the Hecate has about 20-25% left.
-
Yeah, that made me cry. The Hecate is such a majestic ship and I felt it was seriously shafted by the vanilla stats. I made a Heavy TerSlash beam to replace its woefully inefficient TerSlashes with. The end result is that, if the Hecate is facing the orion and rotated about 30 degrees to expose its flank so three beams are brought to bear, the Orion is destroyed and the Hecate has about 20-25% left.
you want to see a Hecate in action???
play the recently re released campaigns from the restoration project, those have Hecate's making fuss around :D... try with Pandora's box , warzone etc.
and I can tell you.. of all fs destroyers, I like the Hecate so much better now that before, the new normal maps make it look really intimidating from afar.
just check this one out:
(http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/6580/screen0255xf5.jpg)
-
It's a carrier, not a direct-combat warship. Command wisely pulls it out every time hostile warships show up (witness 'Argonautica' and that mission that introduces the Pegasus.)
-
The only time I can think of is when the Phoenicia gets near enough blown apart by the SJ Santhanas. I can't think of anything else, as due to my current issues with my FSO, I can't progress past the McCarthey mission from FS1 (please don't think of that as a dig guys, I just don't know what I can do about my missing models and cockpits.)
-
Post your log file! (After running a debug build.)
Although maybe you should do that in the support forum.
-
The GTD Eternity from Into the Depths of Hell is a pretty badass ship in Chapter 2 and beyond, owing to some custom weapons added.
But that's about the only Hecate I've ever seen in action, and, as I said before, it was modified.
-
I always think that the vanilla Hecate isn't good at capship battles . . . perhaps more of a giant Aeolus.
It's so sort of ironic that "Hecate" was supposed to be pretty powerful as a goddess but her FS2 destroyer counterpart is quite weak (capship wise.)
-
Wasn't the Phoenicia a Hecate? (depending on the difficulty and some randomness it either explodes or jumps out with like 5 health)
-
It's a Hecate. From medium down to easy, it manages to jump out with 1% health IIRC.
-
Well, the Aquitaine goes against two Moloch corvettes in the nebula.
The Aquitaine's firepower is so woeful that on all difficulties below medium, it can't even kill the SCv Tiamat before it reaches the node. (The equally pathetic firepower of the Moloch means that the Aquitaine won't die either).
In fact, I've actually gotten screwed by that before, as I disabled the Tiamat, and then the Aquitaine ditches me, and me and my wingmen sit there pounding it for "hours" on 64x time compression and it just sits there at 1%.
-
Bring EMP missiles. I'm told they don't have the right flag, but I somehow used them to kill the Tiamat.
-
I just cheated, switched to SSLs, and blew it up after I realized it would never die, but I've gotta try those EMP missiles one day.
-
I just Stellito the Tiamat's engines then get my wingmen to shoot it dead.
Actually, it's a good time to test out various weapons on a live subject . . . using cheats of course. :D
-
I just Stellito the Tiamat's engines then get my wingmen to shoot it dead.
Actually, it's a good time to test out various weapons on a live subject . . . using cheats of course. :D
Yeah, the problem is neither you or your wingmen can kill it with the weapons available in that mission.
-
Yeah, the problem is neither you or your wingmen can kill it with the weapons available in that mission.
the bigdamage flag comes into rescue right?
still... the Hecate is a wonderfull craft, I bet it would be a little more effective if it had it's main beam weapons less exposed and better distributed around the structure.
-
In Warzone I used the Hecate allot because it didn't get much of a shot at things in the retail campaign. Using completely stock stats the Hecate I found is quite good in forward engagements because it has the two beams up front, and two on the side of the forward structure with decent angle. Plus with all of the flak and AAA beams it can defend itself well against a bomber assault.
Its actually more defensive than the Orion. The Orion with its beam upgrades is a battleship...best option is to broadside the enemy.
-
In fact, I've actually gotten screwed by that before, as I disabled the Tiamat, and then the Aquitaine ditches me, and me and my wingmen sit there pounding it for "hours" on 64x time compression and it just sits there at 1%.
That's probably why, funny things start to happen at that time speed, like damage no longer taking effect on ships.
-
Crazy firepower? Their best weapon is a frontal BGreen, so you would be more excited by an Orion Vs. Orion battle. This happens only in-game, in the Universe the Hecate is supposed to be much better.
It is in that it is no where near as vulnerable to bombers than the Orion. Given how powerful bombs have become in the FS universe this is very important. They generally seem to complement each other pretty well.
-
Bring EMP missiles. I'm told they don't have the right flag, but I somehow used them to kill the Tiamat.
I think it's because the shockwave does damage that isn't negated. It's a tiny amount but it adds up.
-
Bring EMP missiles. I'm told they don't have the right flag, but I somehow used them to kill the Tiamat.
I think it's because the shockwave does damage that isn't negated. It's a tiny amount but it adds up.
I think you're right. When I heard it didn't have the bigdamage flag that seemed like the only reasonable alternative.
-
You can't take out a Moloch with simple primaries. They don't have the flag needed to inflict lethal damage to corvette size warships and above.
-
I think Hecate class destroyers are better served as big lazy boy chairs for Command or some high ranking officer. Every Freespace 2 mission I've flown in with a Hecate class destroyer usually ends up with the Hecate fleeing, taking some bad ass damage, sitting there dishing out orders, or all of the above. Seriously though who needs a bunch of high powered turrets stealing your kills anyways? Also I lol'd when the Phoenicia died on Insane difficulty.
-
I think Hecate class destroyers are better served as big lazy boy chairs for Command or some high ranking officer. Every Freespace 2 mission I've flown in with a Hecate class destroyer usually ends up with the Hecate fleeing, taking some bad ass damage, sitting there dishing out orders, or all of the above. Seriously though who needs a bunch of high powered turrets stealing your kills anyways? Also I lol'd when the Phoenicia died on Insane difficulty.
It is a carrier.
-
To be honest I don't understand why certain people think of destroyers as oversized corvettes intended to jump in, destroy a target and then jump out. That's not what destroyers are supposed to do. They're the center of a battlegroup and their launch/recovery capabilities are not to be wasted.
Obviously, in case of attack, destroyers should have enough weaponry to disencourage corvette sized warships and below...yet still, it doesn't mean the "typical" scenario involving a destroyer is a capship versus capship battle.
Episodes like that should be extremely rare in the FS2 era and shouldn't occur when the battle is balanced. I guess the Psamtik would have never engaged the Cyrene directly if that destroyer wasn't already weakened.
-
Concur.
-
Then FreeSpace has no true front-line warship.
There's the Colossus, but oh wait, it was destroyed.
-
In freespace there is not that much destroyer on destroyer action, but that's because the campaign is made to give the player a role in the story, you all know that... player does not take part in cap on cap action.
certainly in real life I would expect big warships to be committed especially for resolving difficult situations.
-
Then FreeSpace has no true front-line warship.
There's the Colossus, but oh wait, it was destroyed.
The Corvette is.
-
Also, a corvettes hull strength is very close to its faction's destroyer:
Deimos - 8 000
Hecate - 10 000 <For the Terrans and Shivans anyway>
Sobek - 8 000
Hatshepsut - 13 500
Moloch - 8 000
Ravana - 10 000
With a destroyer's main beams taken out, 2 coordinated corvettes can easily take out it out. In fact, 20 minutes is quite short in real-life fighting. It's in game time that its long.
-
Then FreeSpace has no true front-line warship.
There's the Colossus, but oh wait, it was destroyed.
Neither does real life.
-
True, the introduction of the aircraft carrier effectively made large ship-to-ship engagements obsolete.
-
To be honest I don't understand why certain people think of destroyers as oversized corvettes intended to jump in, destroy a target and then jump out. That's not what destroyers are supposed to do. They're the center of a battlegroup and their launch/recovery capabilities are not to be wasted.
Obviously, in case of attack, destroyers should have enough weaponry to disencourage corvette sized warships and below...yet still, it doesn't mean the "typical" scenario involving a destroyer is a capship versus capship battle.
For the SD Ravana, it would. Sure, its got launch and recovery capabilities as well, but if its not attacking something, chances are its dead. On the offensive, it can bring its four main beams against a single target, vaporize it in seconds, then leave. However, if it were to just sit back and launch fighters, it would be over if it got attacked by a Sobek and a few bomber wings, as illustrated by the FS2 campaign. The Ravana took out the majority of a battlegroup in a surprise offensive, but fell to a single corvette and a bomber wing when itself was attacked.
Yes, I do know that this is an extreme case, and that the Ravana is only suited to Shivan strategies of using their warships as overwhelming anti-warship on the offensive. Additionally, a battle involving a Ravana attacking anything can hardly be regarded as a 'balanced' battle unless Alpha One is there to take out the main beams.
Indeed the GTVA would probably refrain from committing destroyers to combat other destroyers unless absolutely necessary, or unless there is a good chance of coming out on top with minimal damage.
Then FreeSpace has no true front-line warship.
There's the Colossus, but oh wait, it was destroyed.
Neither does real life.
Well, there was up until WW2. Before, there were Battleships which were meant to be able to take down essentially anything that tried to attack them.
The advent of the carrier changed all that, with most Battleships being sunk before they were in range to even fire off a shot.
Well, this is also true in Freespace, how ships can be completely neutered by a bomber wing long before they come into beam range - even a subspace jump away, in the case of the first SJ Sathanas.
So yeah, I guess that the Hecate's superior anti-fighter power would make it superior to the Orion, as fighters and bombers are the real things that do damage. In the 'battlegroup' system, the Hecate (Navy carrier equivalent) would optimally have the escort of Corvettes and cruisers (Navy destroyer equivalent) to fend off enemy attacks. An attack by another destroyer would just be handled by its bomber wings. The fire support is largely unnecessary when you have a wing of Ursas loaded with Helios that can destroy the entirety of the opposing warship's armament and proceed to level it in less time than it would take for return fire to do the same thing.
-
Then FreeSpace has no true front-line warship.
There's the Colossus, but oh wait, it was destroyed.
The Corvette is.
All of the Corvettes in FreeSpace are just big Cruisers with slightly angrier colored flashlights and near-Destroyer hull.
Then FreeSpace has no true front-line warship.
There's the Colossus, but oh wait, it was destroyed.
Neither does real life.
Oh and by the way, real-life Cruisers are the closest thing to a warship that you'll get. Thought just about everything out there now is a giant missile platform... :blah:
-
Basically FreeSpace 2's capital ships go:
some crummy cruiser (fenris, for example) x4 = some better cruiser (e.g. leviathan)
some better cruiser x2 = some corvette
some corvette x2 = some destroyer
and then supers. they've got 800,000 (lucifer or hades (i think)) or 1,000,000 HP (sath, colly)
There are some oddballs (like the lilith) but this is the general trend.
-
Then FreeSpace has no true front-line warship.
There's the Colossus, but oh wait, it was destroyed.
The Corvette is.
All of the Corvettes in FreeSpace are just big Cruisers with slightly angrier colored flashlights and near-Destroyer hull.
Then FreeSpace has no true front-line warship.
There's the Colossus, but oh wait, it was destroyed.
Neither does real life.
Oh and by the way, real-life Cruisers are the closest thing to a warship that you'll get. Thought just about everything out there now is a giant missile platform... :blah:
And the giant missile platforms are used largely to defend giant fighter platforms.
-
Well that is about all Cruisers in the FS Universe are good for, using their anti fighter capabilities to harass bomber wings, or generally take down anything smaller than them
-
Hmm, with the appearance of corvettes cruisers are obsolete in my opinion. They are simply too expensive and are easily destroyed by a wing of Basilisks with 80 hornets each.
Perhaps they are small command points or support craft during strike raids - as the Fenris techroom description says.
-
Regarding the Hecate, I'd be willing to bet that its design stage was in tandem with that of the Hatshepsut, at least in terms of relative capabilities. The Hecate was obviously designed as more of a carrier and/or command and control vessel, while the Hatshepsut works much better as a direct-assault vessel (at least if it jumps in at the right angle). Even putting that aside, a destroyer-class vessel would most likely rarely be alone during normal operations; I'd expect that they'd probably be escorted by a corvette and at least one or two cruisers.
-
I believe we all agree that the GTVA needed a C&C and support ship. And the Hecate can do that . What we do not agree it seems is the fact that such a important ship doesn't have the firepower to take out even a corvette.
It doesnt have to win against destroyer's but if it came under direct fire from other warships it should at least be able to take out a lowly corvette .
Also people keep telling that the era of direct capship vs capship combat has ended . However i would beg to differ with the advent of beam cannons cap vs cap combat is a real fact. Bombers are powerfull il admit to that they are in fact crazy powerfull however bombers and bombs can be shot down beam's can not.
Also that do you do when you are faced with something like a Lucy or a Sath ?? Use just bombers to take it out ?? Imposible . They would be taken out really fast by interceptors and flack.
Corvette's appeared to move in the right direction massive aaaf capabilaties with 4 beam cannons on it. (Deimos)
However there is no doubt about the fact that there is and will be a need for a dedicated warship armed with beam cannons.
I swear if the Hecate was armed with any weaker beams the only thing that could classify it as a destroyer would be what ?? its size?! and that is about it. They are better off calling it a C&C heavy carrier. Since it would fit the description more acurately.
And leave the classification of destroyer to the Orion and the Hattie .
However i must say the Hecate is one fine looking ship . too bad its awesomeness is not backed up by the adequate punch.
Nevertheless i love the Hecate class and i would much rather have one on mi side then be forced to take one out.
-
Amen
Destroyers function as more like Combat Support, with the Fighter and Bomber Wings like the knuckles of the fist. There's only so much you can do to someone by hitting them, Destroyers are that final knee to the head or curb stomp.
Capship-Capship combat is not dead, but those type of engagements usually involve great numbers of smaller wings and vessels, not two lone Capships sitting next to each other.
-
Any ship is as powerful as the FREDer wants them to be. Think about it like a TV show, think SGA, the Deadalus goes from unable to take out a Ha'Tek to being able to take out Ancient Battleships.
The Hecate is slightly inferior to the Orion in the tables, and is always getting destroyed in the campagin. That doesn't mean that's how it was intended to come across.
-
Any ship is as powerful as the FREDer wants them to be.
That's Rule 0 of storytelling, whether you're writing for TV or for a D&D Campaign--whatever the storyteller says, goes.
-
Yeah, its also easy to switch armaments in FRED.
-
Yeah
I prefer switching its TSlash's to BGreens, the AI can't really make full use of it's Forward Slash beams otherwise (or so I find)
-
Stinks that they had to make the Hecate look so good. I would love it if the Orion and Hecate were switched.
-
Stinks that they had to make the Hecate look so good. I would love it if the Orion and Hecate were switched.
I don't see what's bad about that, I like the Hecate, just think that they must've assigned a sped on armanment though
-
Yeah
I prefer switching its TSlash's to BGreens, the AI can't really make full use of it's Forward Slash beams otherwise (or so I find)
I briefly touched on this thought before. The problem isn't so much that the Hecate has slash beams. It's that the TerSlash is an incredibly weak piece of junk, when placed on a destroyer. Switch those TerSlashes to something more destroyer-appropriate - say, a custom slash beam roughly 80% as powerful as the awesome VSlash - and it becomes a subsystem-annihilating monster.
-
Stinks that they had to make the Hecate look so good. I would love it if the Orion and Hecate were switched.
I don't see what's bad about that, I like the Hecate, just think that they must've assigned a sped on armanment though
Or they forgot which turrets were which considering there's these gigantic turrets that fire of all things...flak.
-
At least they aren't Terran Huge Turrets like on the Orion.
Those suck even harder than flak.
-
At least they aren't Terran Huge Turrets like on the Orion.
Those suck even harder than flak.
QFT
Unfortunately my .tbm spedness dictates I'll have to stick to FRED-ing Hecate beams to BGreens rather than making my own UBER-SLASH
-
At least they aren't Terran Huge Turrets like on the Orion.
Those suck even harder than flak.
Terran turrets are still better than flak at destroying incoming bombs for some reason though.
-
Flak have splash damage, while THTs apply damage direct. If I recall correctly.
-
Yeah, but Flak is far deadlier against bombers. The long range flak the Hecate has on its big turrets are the same weapon the Sath uses to knock you around with in bearbaiting, and those hurt on higher difficulties, while THTs can be dodged fairly easily regardless.
-
Yeah, but Flak is far deadlier against bombers. The long range flak the Hecate has on its big turrets are the same weapon the Sath uses to knock you around with in bearbaiting, and those hurt on higher difficulties, while THTs can be dodged fairly easily regardless.
*Shudders at the thought of having to brave Bearbaiting again*
Flak is a bomber's worst enemy, period.
-
Flak is a bomber's worst enemy, period.
No. AA beams are. :P
-
Flak is a bomber's worst enemy, period.
No. AA beams are. :P
mmm nouuu... heavy flak indeed is worst than AAA beams... and it applies not just for bombers.
-
At least in a Perseus you can punch the burners AND IT DOES SOMETHING!
In an Ursa burners are only useful for keeping up with YOUR OWN ESCORT! Or doing the Helios some justice
-
lol ! Well i remember this mission where you had to take on a Hecate class . Man i must say i was more terrified of that ship then 2 Ravana's an their fighter compliment put toghether.
I mean the HUGE flack and the beams (aaaf ones) and the turrets and the missile's . That thing is a horror to take on iof youre not used to its blind spots. And there are not that many as one would expect.
But then again the said Hecate was equped with Bgreen's on the side's so that kinda means its been modified....so i dont know what to make of it .
-
Which mission?
The one in ITDOH?
Or was it 'Rebel Intercept'?
-
I believe it was in ITDOH....or was it one of TMan's campaign's?? Im not sure really since ive played that mission a very long time ago so to speak. But it was intense. It really made me think of the Hecate as monster that is just waiting for its master to let it out of its kennel and lash out at its pary. In this case poor lil' old me !
-
I love the Eternity. It's main gun sounds like the BFGreen. :D