Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Charismatic on January 30, 2009, 11:54:43 am
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I will probably end up *****ing and ranting about life in this topic but eh.
Discussion on the US military. Pros and cons.
I have a friend who is concidering joining the military, for money, travel, experiance in the carear she wants to get into, stuff like that.
Sadly, she mostlikely will join.
I am deadset against it, yet cannot offer a better alternative.
I know many people that were in the military and are ****ed up.
Jarheads, people getting mentally and emotionally ****ed up. PDS syndrome, social anxiety and fear. I know a guy in college, hes 26, spent only a few years in the military, got a new family, and he has some sort of degenerative back problem. Constant pain, and 26.
My stepdad has arthoritus, and has had 3 hip surgeries. Very painful and i always hear him yell in pain. The military ****s you up, shes too young for this ****.
This that and the other thing, and my opinion on the government\military is complicated and i just dont want her to join. I know people change, and especially with all the dumbass wars were getting into, i fear for her. I dont want her to change, or die. If anyone should go it should be me, tho i hate the military. I hate the fact that if shes in trouble i wont be there, and cannot protect her.
yada yada, you get the jist.
So, Discuss about the Pros, Cons, and alternatives, and about my situation if you feel like it.
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pros, well it has the hardware and isnt afraid to use it. furthermore we kick total ass. that said theyve never had to defend the country so its mostly an assault force. i could forsee problems if they ever had to fight a battle on american soil. of course thats unlikely to happen without us firing off a few nukes in response.
*reads* oh this is about joining the military. well i tried to do that but i was already crazy so they said i couldnt join. but yea i think i just wanted an excuse to kill things.
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pros, well it has the hardware and isnt afraid to use it. furthermore we kick total ass. that said theyve never had to defend the country so its mostly an assault force. i could forsee problems if they ever had to fight a battle on american soil. of course thats unlikely to happen without us firing off a few nukes in response.
*reads* oh this is about joining the military. well i tried to do that but i was already crazy so they said i couldnt join. but yea i think i just wanted an excuse to kill things.
RAPTORS!!
**** YEAH!!
*gets blown up by an IED*
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Probably depends entirely on the branch of service and what she is looking to specialize in.
Pros:
USAF and USN probably have a much lower chance of being involved in direct combat and have more technical opportunities. The military is a pretty big organization so their are plenty of jobs that don't involve getting blown up by an IED even in direct combat oriented branches like the Corps and Army. If you can fit into the "culture" of it then you probably will like it and benefit from the experience.
Cons:
Pay is ****, and basically you sign away your freedom for four years. You sign up and realize its not for you then thier is no turning back. If your superior ends up being a dick then your stuck with it. Their is no looking for another job, no disobeying orders, you do what your told to do and thats it. Even though title IX has made pretty strong inroads sexism is still exists.
Its difficult to paint you a decent picture when your using the "military" with such broad stokes. Depending on her situation i would suggest making a deal where she does a year in the regular work force for a year and if she still feels the need to join up then she can.
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On the one hand, I’m all for women taking whatever path they feel is best for them. Your friend sounds like a strong, competent person – she is, after all, making a somewhat unconventional choice. And I hate to say it, but I’m hearing a little condescension on your part. Much as it might pain you to hear it, she probably doesn’t want your protection.
On the other hand, my personal reaction is that the military is a bad choice for most people. I’m inclined to agree with all your arguments there, and I had very similar feelings to yours when a young (male) acquaintance enlisted. He’s being deployed to Iraq next month, and I doubt that he’ll be the same person I knew when he returns. I didn’t know him well enough to talk him out of it, and I didn’t find out about it until it was too late, but I wish that someone had.
If you do end up talking to your friend about this, I would say you need to make it very clear that your objections aren’t because you don’t think she can handle it. Chances are she’s just as capable as any other kid who’s about to make this choice, though I suppose that it could be argued that most of those aren’t really prepared for what they’re getting into either.
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the voluntary service has give the united states a domestically unassailable and politically cheap tool for imperialistic policies around the globe
qtiyd
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She wants to be a nurse or a nurse assistant. Working in hostpitals and stuff. Shes not into the navy or AF, just the regulary Army. Not national guards, but active duty.
Still, they train everyone to be infantryman at first dont they? Teach everyone how to fight. As stated, war or no war, it still ****s up many soldiers bodies for life.
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She wants to be a nurse or a nurse assistant. Working in hostpitals and stuff. Shes not into the navy or AF, just the regulary Army. Not national guards, but active duty.
Still, they train everyone to be infantryman at first dont they? Teach everyone how to fight. As stated, war or no war, it still ****s up many soldiers bodies for life.
If she's deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan, her chances of PTSD will still be quite high. Modern low-intensity war involves psychological stress that past wars (pre-Vietnam) did not.
The initial basic training probably won't do too much damage, so long as she can tolerate the culture.
Her chances of being sexually assaulted do increase in the military. Make sure she knows that she can report any harassment or assault, and that she should do so immediately.
The skills and discipline she'll pick up may be very good to her in the civilian world. It all really depends on her personality and where she's lucky (or unlucky) enough to be assigned.
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She wants to be a nurse or a nurse assistant. Working in hostpitals and stuff. Shes not into the navy or AF, just the regulary Army. Not national guards, but active duty.
Still, they train everyone to be infantryman at first dont they? Teach everyone how to fight. As stated, war or no war, it still ****s up many soldiers bodies for life.
If she's deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan, her chances of PTSD will still be quite high. Modern low-intensity war involves psychological stress that past wars (pre-Vietnam) did not.
To nitpick that can also indicate that A) the PTSD situation was not researched as throughoutle back then as it was today and B) to diagnose a patient with PTSD was more... difficult back then.
Even the Wiki page on PTSD has a quote:
The diagnosis was removed from the DSM-II, which resulted in the inability of Vietnam veterans to receive benefits for this condition. In part through the efforts of anti Vietnam war activists and the anti war group Vietnam Veterans Against the War and Chaim F. Shatan, who worked with them and coined the term post-Vietnam Syndrome, the condition was added to the DSM-III as posttraumatic stress disorder.[85]
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That's fair.
There is some evidence to suggest that modern forms of warfare involve more persistent low-level stress; I just read a paper on it.
But bad diagnoses in the past are definitely a viable alternative.
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Still, they train everyone to be infantryman at first dont they? Teach everyone how to fight. As stated, war or no war, it still ****s up many soldiers bodies for life.
Yes and no. Everyone takes basic, but that isn't what teaches the infantry how to be infantry. That's AIT, and since she would go to be a nurse, she wouldn't do that unless she wants to be a medic, in which case she would go to AIT and then train to be a medic, and then be deployed. And basic only ****s your body up if you weren't prepared for it.
If it's a choice only between joining the army and changing careers, I'd advise her to join the army for a tour. But chances are there are things she can do other than joining the army to get money and gain experience.
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The only people who recieve unified training along those lines are the Marines.
If she wants to be a nurse or medic, that's not an issue. The Marines don't have their own medical service but use that of the Navy.
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The army does give some basic combat training to all that enlist, that is why its called basic training. Support and other technical jobs then go on to what is called MOS training where they learn their individual skill sets. For Combat line troops, we didn't go to basic. Instead we go through a program that combines both basic training and MOS training in one block. It's generally tougher than regular basic training. As for people coming out of the military with physical problems you'll see that a large portion of those are related to the job they did. I know that armored vehicles such as the M1 Abrams and M3 Bradley are notorious for messing soldiers up. I myself am starting to notice some lower back problems and I'm not even 30 yet. As far as mental problems go, I really imagine that it is going to depend on what job you have and where you're posted. A combat soldier deployed to a war zone is far more likely to develop mental problems than say a radio repair technician who never sees the front lines. I'm not saying that support jobs are not challenging in their own right. Signing up for anything guarantees a lot of long hours and doing a lot of stuff you probably don't want to do and the stress can drive some people crazy but a strong minded person should do just fine. Oh and tell her that if she plays hard ball with the recruiters she can dictate where her first posting will be, as long there is an open position at that post. Just make sure its in the contract or they can send her any where they please.
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If she's going to be a medic it's entirely possible they will stick her up front as a field medic. In Iraq and Afghanistan there's really no such thing as a front line though, since the insurgency will have no hesitations about going behind the lines and ****ing you up.
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Most field medics in my experience were men. Field medics are usually attached to a combat unit and the Army has all ways been reluctant to put females in combat units. The only females I ever saw in any combat unit were in aviation units and most of those were at least warrant officers. Things may have changed since the 2nd gulf war but I doubt it. The only cases I ever heard of females finding them selves in combat situations were in either aviation units or support battalions who suddenly found themselves in an ambush while in a convoy.
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Most field medics in my experience were men. Field medics are usually attached to a combat unit and the Army has all ways been reluctant to put females in combat units. The only females I ever saw in any combat unit were in aviation units and most of those were at least warrant officers. Things may have changed since the 2nd gulf war but I doubt it. The only cases I ever heard of females finding them selves in combat situations were in either aviation units or support battalions who suddenly found themselves in an ambush while in a convoy.
There was a female medic who won a medal for conduct under fire last year (or the year before) -- sounds like she did a hell of a job, including covering wounded soldiers with rifle fire.
I believe the article discussing the events suggested that female soldiers, particularly medics, often found themselves in combat simply because -- as Kosh said -- there aren't any front lines any more.
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Alright, as a member of the military (USAF but stationed on an Army post), I feel like I should say something here.
First of all, basic training. It's rough, not going to lie. Make sure she knows what she's getting into. About.com US Military has a wonderful section on it called "What Your Recruiter Never Told You" and a weekly email that gives you steps to prepare for basic. I read them before I joined them and did fine. Also, be very physically fit going into it. If she doesn't already work out several times a week, she should--aerobic and nonaerobic. I don't remember the exact stats for Army Physical Fitness Test, but it's not easy if you go in eating ding dongs and popcorn all day.
Secondly, the job itself. I'm not directly involved with any medical staff where I am except when I have a medical appointment, which I actually have at the local USAF base. Still, remember this: medics are out on patrol with the infantry. Nurses and nurse assistants stay behind the barbed wire or in field hospitals where their chances of being hurt in an attack are astronomically fewer. Deployment is not easy. It's extremely stressful, but the military does everything possible to relieve it before during and after. Believe me, they do a good job.
On the subject of combat, in addition to what I just said, ngtm1r is dead on. Only Marines put all their members through that sort of training: MCT. Army does not.
It's undeniably rewarding though. The new GI Bill is wonderful, and having all your meals, medical, dental, and housing paid for is great. The experience will pay off. You make friends you'll always keep in touch with, and you get to see the world on the government's dime.
Sorry to sound like a recruiter, which I'm trying not to do, but I felt I should give some advice.
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My parents were both officers in the USMC. That you end up obeying orders from people like them is one really, really good reason not to join. :P
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Well my uncle was in the Commando Regiment of the Sri Lankan Army, and I'd like to say firstly, as nuclear1 said before, basically the army is NOT the epic ****hole everyone thinks it is, where women get raped on a regular basis and you can expect to be beaten weekly. But you have to posses some kind of will and 'toughness' to succed in the military. People like Ned Flanders for example would not last a day in the military if he was for some obscure reason posted to an infantry division. They're going to shout at her and they will make her feel like she wants to quit in basic, but that's part of training, really proves how much you want to go through with this.
Personally, I don't feel that the military as a career choice is 'bad' as such, but it's definetely not for everyone. And as a nurse, all your friend will have to do is get used to the 'culture' in the military, if she doesn't like being told what to do- tell her to get over it, because not complying with orders yields some undesirable consequences. If she's okay with blood and gore, and has some appreciation for the service, she should be fine. And by the way, MAKE SURE SHE DOESN'T DO ANYTHING PVT. HAYES-esque, basically everyone in the US army knows what that is, and I won't risk elaborating on it here. From what I've been told by people I know who've served, as far as combat goes, it's not a pleasant place, especially after the adrenaline wears off and you realise what you're doing. However if your friend ever does decide to change her career preferences and become a medic/corpsman or any other job that involves being on the frontlines, no doubt the army will prepare her adequately for it, after all, it is in the military's best interests their soldiers come back alive.
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I'm personally very much against sending women to front lines. Stories about women getting raped are also true to some part. But I don't believe there is beating involved, unless one specifically wants to go to special forces. Does US Army provide statistics for these cases? I recall reading several newspaper stories about this happening, but cannot provide links without Google searching - which I'm not interested in at the moment.
Other than that, there are multiple interesting positions for women in other places of Army. I would also recommend trying to find a civilian job first and keeping the Army possibility open if it turns out to be necessary.
Mika
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I have the article somewhere, but I read in the Army Times edition from November or so that there were over a hundred or so cases of sexual abuse by Army DIs in boot camp of recruits, but these DIs have been canned or sent to prison. Then there was Aberdeen in the 90s (with one DI being convicted of well over 30 rape charges)...
Fact is, however, it's gotten much better. Ever since Aberdeen, the Army has made reporting sexual assault much easier. You wouldn't believe the number of briefings I've had in just the past year on how to deal with this sort of thing.
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Women are more likely to be raped by a fellow soldier than killed by an enemy. Statistically.
But keeping women out of _____ won't do anything. (Rape isn't a women's issue, it's a men's issue.) So "onoes, you'll get raped" is never a reason to tell a woman not to do something.
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Im not woried about rape. Im worried about death, and mental and physical damages. Leaving and coming back changed, a diff person. I have heard lot of arguments on both sides so its hard to believe the military is as safe and person friendly as everyone is making it seem.
But yeah. Shes decided to join. Ill show her this topic sometime when I see her next (Within aweek). Im a mess because of this decision. I dont want to loose her. At the least, shes gone for 4 years. Unacceptable.
EDIT: Anyone know of any alernatives? Big coorpoations that are hiring? Any.. non college scholarships or paid inturnships for big coorporations that have job secruity? Anything?
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In some states, at least it used to be this way, if you went to school to become a teacher and agreed to stay in a certain area that needed teachers for a set amount of time, the state would give you a full ride. I believe they're doing that for doctors in Canada, too.
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Four years as a nurse assistant isn't all that horrible. I signed on for six years, and in my field at least, the training takes at least half of the length of the contract. I can't imagine an A School in the medical field would be exactly short either.
Her time in service includes her time spent in A School, so really, she could be up for only one or two deployments depending on how long the school.
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Im not woried about rape. Im worried about death, and mental and physical damages. Leaving and coming back changed, a diff person. I have heard lot of arguments on both sides so its hard to believe the military is as safe and person friendly as everyone is making it seem.
But yeah. Shes decided to join. Ill show her this topic sometime when I see her next (Within aweek). Im a mess because of this decision. I dont want to loose her. At the least, shes gone for 4 years. Unacceptable.
EDIT: Anyone know of any alernatives? Big coorpoations that are hiring? Any.. non college scholarships or paid inturnships for big coorporations that have job secruity? Anything?
As a nurse, she would never change as much as say, someone who decides to try the SF entry test and passes. Those are the assignments you get that change people. The only real changes she would undergo would be desensitization to death (only slightly though, she wouldn't undergo the full wrath of B.F. Skinner's ideas), higher confidence and more tough mentally.
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Im not woried about rape. Im worried about death, and mental and physical damages. Leaving and coming back changed, a diff person. I have heard lot of arguments on both sides so its hard to believe the military is as safe and person friendly as everyone is making it seem.
But yeah. Shes decided to join. Ill show her this topic sometime when I see her next (Within aweek). Im a mess because of this decision. I dont want to loose her. At the least, shes gone for 4 years. Unacceptable.
Perhaps instead of irrationally freaking out about it, you could instead choose to support her in the decision that she made, which she obviously feels is what's best for herself. That would do both of you some good.
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Pros:
- Most, if not all of the costs of living for however long she stays in for are payed.
- The military introduces a very useful set of skills that can be used later in life.
- If she stays in for 20 years (the way this thread is going, I doubt it), she gets a badass pension (1500~2000 bucks a month)
- Even deployed, there is a very low chance of being wounded or killed (In January, only 16 people were killed, and 30 wounded, and that's for combat troops)
Cons:- Demanding. The basic training is bad if you aren't prepared.
- As said before, If she changes her mind, she can't leave until the end of her tour of duty
- There is still the very remote possibility of injury or psychological disorder. But really, you have worse odds of being killed in a car crash on your way to work each morning (1 in 81) to getting killed overseas (1 in 100 somthing)
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But yeah. Shes decided to join. Ill show her this topic sometime when I see her next (Within aweek).
When you show her this thread, don't show her the misconceptions that are in here. This thread has great information, but there is a fair share of misconceptions offered in here.
I did something like this for my little brother too. But, having him talk to people his age who were dishonorably discharged from the army did not give him a real picture.
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Feel free to point out misinfo. or mis conceptions.
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But really, you have worse odds of being killed in a car crash on your way to work each morning (1 in 81) to getting killed overseas (1 in 100 somthing)
I think your maths might be wrong there.
1 in 81 deaths being caused by car crashes - quite possible
1 in 81 chance of being killed in a car crash on your way to work in the morning - not likely, if only because I've gone to work hundreds of times, thousands of times, and are yet to die in a car crash :p
And, err, army nurse is probably a pretty sweet job right now. I'm not sure from your post whether she's already trained as a nurse or not, but if she's already trained, well, I dunno what the hiring situation is for nurses in America (the health system is screaming for them here, but we have public health), but if the private sector isn't hiring, going through the military seems OK. There's a fairly decent chance she'll be posted stateside anyway (don't most seriously wounded troops get treated in America proper anyway? So a big chunk of the medical people must be there), and if not at least she'll have a guaranteed job probably not significantly more dangerous than working in some dodgy inner city hospital (somewhat higher chance of being attacked, sure, but probably a lower chance of blood borne infections and the like from drug patients).
If she's not already trained then, again, pretty decent. Education is so expensive in America, having someone else pay for it and then having guaranteed job security is a good thing for a lot of people. I would have seriously considered going to Duntroon if I was getting an ADF friendly degree.
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But really, you have worse odds of being killed in a car crash on your way to work each morning (1 in 81) to getting killed overseas (1 in 100 somthing)
My odds of being killed in a car crash on the way to work are 1 in 81! :eek2: Holy **** that's shocking! Not least because I take the tube.
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She hasent been trained yet.
So no one has any remote chance for a alternative?
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For guaranteed job security, free education and all benfits paid for? No, not really.
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I suppose you could tie her up and drag her across the border. Since this obviously isn't her decision.
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But really, you have worse odds of being killed in a car crash on your way to work each morning (1 in 81) to getting killed overseas (1 in 100 somthing)
I would have seriously considered going to Duntroon if I was getting an ADF friendly degree.
My careers counsellor is trying to convince me to start the application process for ADFA next year while I'm still in Year 11, because "The positives far outweigh the negatives" (supposedly). I have no issues with the next 13 years of my life being in the Defence Force, problem is the selection for entry is really competitive.
For guaranteed job security, free education and all benfits paid for? No, not really.
Very true, one of the most attractive aspects of the Defence Force.
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She hasent been trained yet.
So no one has any remote chance for a alternative?
Listen. Somebody else has said this, and you *have* to understand this. Your friend is going to do what she feels is right- most likely with or without your input. There are times in life when you have to know when to let go. This looks to be one of those times. Furthermore, people change over time anyways. Being afraid that somebody will change is a little irrational. I've had very close friends that have changed over time to the point where I honestly can't be friends with them anymore. We here at the forum can present you with statistics, data, personal experience, and opinions, but ultimately, this thread is about your unease with your friend's decision.
Charismatic, I do not know you at all (in fact, I don't think I've even seen you around the forum), but I say with full honesty- your friend's choice to join the military is something you need to come to terms with on your own. Because, let's face it: your feelings are exactly that- yours.
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I'm not american so i can only talk from the outside if i am permitted !
However the way i see the US armed forces is more like and expeditionary force.
The US Army has never had to fight on its own soil and well that is a damned good thing ! I would say the US is very lucky in this regard.
However one has to wonder what would happen if god forbid such an awefull thing would happen !
They have the hardware and the money to keep on top and so far that has worked well !
However fighting outside of its borders all the time has its price. No matter how you look at it the US has to maintain a huge armed force in order to make sure the war doesn't come to its home.
Sooner or later such a thing is going to come down biting. Sooner or later other countries that rely on the US army will get strong enough to stand on their own. So then what happens when the US has to downsize its armed forces in a drastic manner ??
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For guaranteed job security, free education and all benfits paid for? No, not really.
For guaranteed job security
loooooooooooool
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Excuse me?
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Excuse me?
if you didn't get it already you won't get it even if i explain
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Whatever you say...
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Pros: Wear Oakleys.
Cons: Blue-on-blue incidents.
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Pros: Wear Oakleys.
Cons: Blue-on-blue incidents.
Ohh come on, is that the best you can do? Once again I state, the military is NOT an Epic ****hole
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And you know this how? I'm far too lazy to acquaint myself with all the new folk - are you ex-military or just a proponent?
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And you know this how? I'm far too lazy to acquaint myself with all the new folk - are you ex-military or just a proponent?
Uncle was a Commando in the Sri Lankan Army Commando Regiment. 20+ Years of service, nearly all of it combat experience. He's currently suffering from some kind of PTSD, not too bad though, he was 'One-of-a-kind'. On average the SLA see more action than any other military in that region. He would strongly warn me against joining the SL army, in an effort so "Spare me" from the "Horrors of War", however he would agree it takes more than just anyone to join the army. I have no argument with that, I'm also an Air Force Cadet, and I've made myself acquainted with the services/facilities the military provides, it's nothing bad.
HOWEVER
One thing, you absolutely do not do, is go there as nothing more than a social outcast basically, low self-esteem etc. Because the D.I. will break you, your fellow recruits will haze you, basically, watch Full Metal Jacket, and DON'T BE A PVT. PYLE! But it's important to remember, those guys in your recruit platoon are basically just guys like you, so as long as you're tolerant and willing to go with the flow, you'll be fine in the military.
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I'm not even sure what side of the argument you just came down on .... :lol:
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I'm not even sure what side of the argument you just came down on .... :lol:
Well I made an attempt to try and justify both ends to some extent. My point being
A) A country so deep in it's own corruption like Sri Lanka will ultimately not treat you as well as say, the US Military
B) Most modern militaries go out of their way to support their personnel
And this site should answer some questions, recommended by someone else who posted on this board, ex-military I think: http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/joiningup/a/recruiter.htm
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I'm not american so i can only talk from the outside if i am permitted !
The US Army has never had to fight on its own soil and well that is a damned good thing ! I would say the US is very lucky in this regard.
However one has to wonder what would happen if god forbid such an awefull thing would happen !
Wow, a non-American, on the internet, NOT wishing death and nuclear hellfire on me and my countrymen. It's... refreshing.
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I'm not american so i can only talk from the outside if i am permitted !
The US Army has never had to fight on its own soil and well that is a damned good thing ! I would say the US is very lucky in this regard.
However one has to wonder what would happen if god forbid such an awefull thing would happen !
Wow, a non-American, on the internet, NOT wishing death and nuclear hellfire on me and my countrymen. It's... refreshing.
oh redsniper
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I'm not american so i can only talk from the outside if i am permitted !
The US Army has never had to fight on its own soil and well that is a damned good thing ! I would say the US is very lucky in this regard.
However one has to wonder what would happen if god forbid such an awefull thing would happen !
Wow, a non-American, on the internet, NOT wishing death and nuclear hellfire on me and my countrymen. It's... refreshing.
It's a trap!! :nervous:
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My xanga friend who is a marine wrote a post about mental health services in the USMC:
Someone is failing us...
I guess before i start this post i should clarify who the "us" in question is. By us i mean veterans. And while this could apply to veterans from many of the conflicts the U.S. has been involved in i'm specifically talking about OIF/OEF veterans. (Operation Iraqi Freedom and Operation Enduring Freedom).
As some of you may know i personally have two deployments under my belt. My first one was during the second year of the Iraq war (i had interior gaurd duty during their first democratic elections... fun stuff) and i got back from my second one in September of 08 where i worked as a mortuary affairs specialist. (Deployments were done with two different units). Now my second unit is quite unique in that well, we're one of two Personnel Retrieval and Processing Company's in the entire Marine Corps... both are reserve units. You can come into the unit with any MOS but you will also be sent to the Mortuary Affairs school. What is unique about our job is that you can drop the school at any time without any repercussions. It's also not one of those jobs the Marine Corps (and the Army... they have the only active duty component) can not just stick you in... you have to volunteer for it.
So what does all this have to do with someone failing us?
Before i deployed the second time around we were told of all these things we were going to go through while we were deployed and after we came back. That we'd have talks with the chaplain, and that after we got back we'd have to go see a psychologist to make sure we were "ok" before we got off orders because of what we do and see out there.
Out in Iraq we didn't talk to the chaplain a whole lot... which is fine cause none of us really liked him. (i liked the one from my old unit better). But you know what kind of training/counseling i got when i got back? All i got was the regular separation from active duty classes which is pretty much aimed to help up work wise in the civilian world. We didn't get any coping classes and not once did i talk to a psychologist or anyone of that nature to make sure i was "ok." The closest thing i did was fill out the Post Deployment Health Assessment survey thing... and come on, no one fills those things out accurately and truthfully... and not all problems manifest right after you get back.
On my last day of active duty (before i was dropped back into the reserve status) someone in our chain of command asked us (mind you he's not a medical professional or even a navy corpsman) if any of us were going to need to see someone cause if we were they would have to keep us on orders... They wanted to know now cause apparently it is a ***** and a half to get us back on orders.
Your asking us on our last freaking day of active duty... and your coming to us at the angle, not of our well being but the amount of paperwork and what not it would take to bring us back to active duty to get us the help that we need? If i need help im not going to tell you cause a) your not a medical professional and b) you don't really care!
Now what brought about this post is not some kind of flashback i had from my deployment... but a series of text messages i got from another friend in the military last night(well they're processing out)...
"I put a loaded 9mm in my mouth and pulled the trigger today! It did not go off! Wtf! What kind of ****ing luck is that? I dont understand?"
"Why did you do that? Or are you drunk and pullin my chain?"
"No! I seriously hate my life! I don't understand why it didn't go off?"
"Why in the hell do you hate your life so much? and maybe it didn't go off cause it's not your time"
"Too many nightmares and problems"
"hugz, i wish i could help"
and i haven't heard back...
The sad thing is? This isn't the only friend of mine that is dealing with some kind of issues/demons. Ya, some are getting medically discharged and will be getting VA disability for PTSD but that does not solve the underlying issue here. Our veterans are not being properly taken care of after they come back. Think of the people in my job, the grunts, the medics, and more... what we see and deal with out there... especially if they were out there during the first years of the war. Experiences, im glad, most of America will never have to deal with. Yes, many of us are lucky that we come back with all of our limbs in tact but that does not mean that there still isn't anything wrong with us. Many of them still struggle inside of their minds. And unfortunately they don't get the kind of help and support that those (and im not trying to be insensitive) missing limbs do.
It is still a battle wound... and one that needs to be addressed properly. I do not want to lose friends because they did not get the help that they needed.
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She wants to be a nurse or a nurse assistant. Working in hostpitals and stuff. Shes not into the navy or AF, just the regulary Army. Not national guards, but active duty.
Tell her to go to college/university and become an RN first. Signing bonuses for medical professionals who then enlist in the military are quite large.
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The military are working on the whole physiological front at the moment aren't they?
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PTSD is pretty crippling.
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PTSD is pretty crippling.
Yeah, I can't even imagine it. Although I have wondered how real flashbacks feel like, but I won't go there.
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I know i will have to deal with her decision. Im working on it. I havent supported her yet but eh. I am willing to re evaluate my opinion on the military\govt.
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PTSD is pretty crippling.
Yeah, I can't even imagine it. Although I have wondered how real flashbacks feel like, but I won't go there.
Well, that's usually only in extreme cases. For a while there, every time a red SUV went by me I felt like leaping over a fense, but it was a precogative reaction.
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PTSD is pretty crippling.
Yeah, I can't even imagine it. Although I have wondered how real flashbacks feel like, but I won't go there.
Well, that's usually only in extreme cases. For a while there, every time a red SUV went by me I felt like leaping over a fense, but it was a precogative reaction.
Ohhh I see. I heard about a guy who couldn't even go on a camping trip after his wife dropped the lid of his esky, which apparently sounds like a mortar, and came to find her husband lying down on the living room floor thinking they were getting shelled.
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Pay is ****, and basically you sign away your freedom for four years. You sign up and realize its not for you then thier is no turning back.
Pay may be ****, but they give you a place to live for free, they give you money to buy food that doesn't come out of your pay, free medical, and no taxes while serving in a combat zone or otherwise hostile location. For those who signed up and found out it wasn't for them, that person clearly should have thought more before joining. On the other hand there is dishonorable discharge.
The people who i've known that were dishonorably discharged weren't very smart in the first place. Idk whose bright idea it was to smoke weed at basic, but these jackasses did. They're only shining quality was that they were honest about it.
Still, they train everyone to be infantryman at first dont they?
No, but like others said they do teach everyone basic combat training. If someone wanted to be infantry they'd teach you more than just basic.
I'm personally very much against sending women to front lines.
This is opinion based.
This thread has a lot of good info. This is the only stuff that really stood out that either needed more info or shouldn't be in the thread.
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Guess my opinion is slanted since I was in the Army for 10yrs. I would recommend going in for everyone, it supplies people with things or societies kids are lacking like responsibility, respect, confidence, pride and duty. For the most part our kids today are lil trouble makers with no regard for guidelines or laws. None of the military branches will ever through you into a situation without some sort of training. The Army and Marines are more of a frontline force so if safety is an issue get a job that has no real frontline work or join the Navy or AirForce. The pay is a bit low but I got to see over 20 countries when I was stationed in Germany and what an experience I got to do that so many will never be able to do in their lifetime. Hey it's just a contract for 2,3,4,6 yrs why not give it a try... you might like it and it takes a hell of a lot to get fired :)
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Guess my opinion is slanted since I was in the Army for 10yrs. I would recommend going in for everyone, it supplies people with things or societies kids are lacking like responsibility, respect, confidence, pride and duty. For the most part our kids today are lil trouble makers with no regard for guidelines or laws. None of the military branches will ever through you into a situation without some sort of training. The Army and Marines are more of a frontline force so if safety is an issue get a job that has no real frontline work or join the Navy or AirForce. The pay is a bit low but I got to see over 20 countries when I was stationed in Germany and what an experience I got to do that so many will never be able to do in their lifetime. Hey it's just a contract for 2,3,4,6 yrs why not give it a try... you might like it and it takes a hell of a lot to get fired :)
I'm a firm believer in the military and hoping on a career in the Air Force, but that's a case for generalizations there dude. I'm 15 (as of 17 hours and 45 minutes ago), and while a lot of people do lack those qualities, they just bring it down for the rest of us who do have those values.
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Teens have always been frowned upon, even since before they were teens, unfortunately. The vast majority of teens are honest, law abiding and good mannered in my experience, it's the few that are the problem, and, of course, their chronies, who are fine on their own, but get them round a trouble-maker and they all look up to him/her as though they were some kind of idol.
My Dad is in his 60's now, and when he was young it was all 'Mods and Rockers', and people used to say precisely the same thing about them as people his age say about young people now ;)
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Teens have always been frowned upon, even since before they were teens, unfortunately. The vast majority of teens are honest, law abiding and good mannered in my experience, it's the few that are the problem, and, of course, their chronies, who are fine on their own, but get them round a trouble-maker and they all look up to him/her as though they were some kind of idol.
My Dad is in his 60's now, and when he was young it was all 'Mods and Rockers', and people used to say precisely the same thing about them as people his age say about young people now ;)
I have to agree with you there. When I was about 6 I made my mind up about teens and labelled them as a bunch of dicks who constantly acted like they were on crack 24/7. Now I am a teen and sometimes those thoughts come back to me. IMO it's all about a lack of understanding, and the facts at hand, there is a great percentage who do fit the stereotype. Hell, I make an effort to conform to that stereotype, because the only thing worse than being a bunch of sheep is being the odd one out. But I do acknowledge, we always seem to be the ones doing the stupid things.
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As a good friend of mine once described it, 'I'll be an individual if you are too' ;)
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Hell, I make an effort to conform to that stereotype, because the only thing worse than being a bunch of sheep is being the odd one out.
Oh if you have courage you can handle being the odd one out. It's not that bad not being included, in fact it's great. I'm an odd one out ever since highschool because i don't like conformity, i have great friends, i'm better at relating to other groups than most people, and i have my own following.
The downside is that not everyone will like you despite no matter how kind or friendly of a person you are. Then again, this is a given when people interact, but moreso if you're an odd one out.
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Hell, I make an effort to conform to that stereotype, because the only thing worse than being a bunch of sheep is being the odd one out.
Oh if you have courage you can handle being the odd one out. It's not that bad not being included, in fact it's great. I'm an odd one out ever since highschool because i don't like conformity, i have great friends, i'm better at relating to other groups than most people, and i have my own following.
The downside is that not everyone will like you despite no matter how kind or friendly of a person you are. Then again, this is a given when people interact, but moreso if you're an odd one out.
Well it all depends on the type of person you are. You sound like a friend of mine whose against conformity on a social 'groups' level. Although he does refer to me as a 'metrosexual' because I style/care about my hair. However I have no gripe personally with conforming, as long as it isn't taking it 'too far'. I don't light up or get pissed off my face on a regular basis, I still like to hold tight to my values. The only real reason I 'fear' noncomforming you could say, is because I am a very clear 'people person', and a lack of social contact would drive me insane. But as you said "you have Great Friends", so then your the 'Odd ones' out, rather than the single lonely person who sits on the bench every break.
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Guess my opinion is slanted since I was in the Army for 10yrs. I would recommend going in for everyone, it supplies people with things or societies kids are lacking like responsibility, respect, confidence, pride and duty. For the most part our kids today are lil trouble makers with no regard for guidelines or laws. None of the military branches will ever through you into a situation without some sort of training. The Army and Marines are more of a frontline force so if safety is an issue get a job that has no real frontline work or join the Navy or AirForce. The pay is a bit low but I got to see over 20 countries when I was stationed in Germany and what an experience I got to do that so many will never be able to do in their lifetime. Hey it's just a contract for 2,3,4,6 yrs why not give it a try... you might like it and it takes a hell of a lot to get fired :)
KIDS THESE DAYS ARRRGH
"Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority, they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers."
KIDS THESE DAYS URRRRRGH
Army is an institution which specializes in killing people the state wants to kill. Think about that before regurgitating 2000 year old talking points about KIDS THESE DAYS HNNNGH
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He can't help it if its still relevant.
Also, thank you for that insight into the purpose of a military.
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He can't help it if its still relevant.
Also, thank you for that insight into the purpose of a military.
have you actually served i never really could tell although you have been one of the more right-wing pro-military posters here for an eternity
and if it is always relevant then the ancient romans knew how to fly and shoot lasers out of their ass because hey, most of the world knows just well how to go act without armed service so either the people were supermen back then or we are simply retards
and besides, i didn't knew it was KIDS who were supposed to go to army unless you live in liberia or sierra leone or something
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I'm personally very much against sending women to front lines.
This is opinion based.
This thread has a lot of good info. This is the only stuff that really stood out that either needed more info or shouldn't be in the thread.
What it comes to my opinions, I'm the guy who leads the first charge. I base my opinions on what I saw in the army in that position. Other than front line stuff like medics, as I said, that would be a good place for women. There are plenty of other positions in the army that would be good, but not those that lead to front lines. Air force and Navy would be good choices also, excluding marines, combat divers and paratroopers.
Mika
ps. And WTF is it with the adverts? "Gay military dating"? :wtf:
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ps. And WTF is it with the adverts? "Gay military dating"? :wtf:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,479952,00.html
???
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PTSD is pretty crippling.
Yeah, I can't even imagine it. Although I have wondered how real flashbacks feel like, but I won't go there.
Well, that's usually only in extreme cases. For a while there, every time a red SUV went by me I felt like leaping over a fense, but it was a precogative reaction.
Actually flashbacks are sorta the defining characteristic. Flashback triggers go in circles. XP
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Yes, currently serving actually.
The "still relevant" part was meant to rebuke your "2000 year old talking points" comment, seeing as how Socrates was complaining about the same thing we are today, it is still relevant.
I never said "kids" join the military--18 year olds and up. You know, legal adults who, in most countries, are legally able to vote, smoke, drive, drink, buy porn. ie, not children.
apparently you missed the memo where I never said 15 year olds should be in the military
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I like the idea of being in some sort of technologically advanced trillion-dollar organization designed to hurt people, but I don't want to be put in any actual danger. Perhaps I should join the Navy? This is the way I see it...
"Mr. E---, fire the ICBMs."
"Okay."
"Have the ICBMs been fired?"
"Yeah. That tent 1,000 miles from here won't see this coming."
"Good work, E---, you made the right decision in joining the Navy. Everyone now wants to be your friend."
/endorphins
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My mum's first husband was in the Navy. He died mysteriously in a training exercise.
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Probably needed someone for FEV testing.
Or as they say in old country, "your husband was just appointed the new ambassador to the Marianas Trench."
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Yes, currently serving actually.
The "still relevant" part was meant to rebuke your "2000 year old talking points" comment, seeing as how Socrates was complaining about the same thing we are today, it is still relevant.
You really don't get it:
The point is that for at least 2000 years, the "kids" have always been ****ed up, then they become the parents who say their kids are ****ed up, then those kids become parents and so on. It's been there for every single generation, where the loose unresponsible damned kids become completely normal members of society who complain about their own kids.
It is total utter bull****. If the kids for most part are ****ed up and it's the Army that teaches them, then well hey pretty much the entire Europe and practically all the women in the world and a huge majority of United States are irresponsible little ****s and since it's about like 4% (Stetson method) of the populace of the world who has went through armed service then we are truly ****ed since everyone's an irresponsible turd.
How can you type that "KIDS THESE DAYS UNGH" is relevant
look at how stupid you are
I never said "kids" join the military--18 year olds and up. You know, legal adults who, in most countries, are legally able to vote, smoke, drive, drink, buy porn. ie, not children.
apparently you missed the memo where I never said 15 year olds should be in the military
well it's just easy because hey, read this brainfart
Guess my opinion is slanted since I was in the Army for 10yrs. I would recommend going in for everyone, it supplies people with things or societies kids are lacking like responsibility, respect, confidence, pride and duty. For the most part our kids today are lil trouble makers with no regard for guidelines or laws. None of the military branches will ever through you into a situation without some sort of training. The Army and Marines are more of a frontline force so if safety is an issue get a job that has no real frontline work or join the Navy or AirForce. The pay is a bit low but I got to see over 20 countries when I was stationed in Germany and what an experience I got to do that so many will never be able to do in their lifetime. Hey it's just a contract for 2,3,4,6 yrs why not give it a try... you might like it and it takes a hell of a lot to get fired
i was commenting that
then you came in and complained how THE KIDS THESE DAYS is relevant
kinda completely managed to miss the point that army is not some basic manners school but a goddamn army, too
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I'll concede the kids point. I don't know how I ended up talking about it in the first place, but I never intended to.
That said, you must be missing the whole point of my posting in this thread. Maybe you're just taking a trivial stupid little point that you interpreted as "the Army is the ONLY place where kids learn any sort of manners".
No, the Army isn't a manners school. It is a military force used to defend a country and to kill people. In order to be effective in this, the military instills discipline and respect into its troops, so they obey orders. As a result, military types tend to be respectful in general. I know it's not the only way to become a decent person, and I don't know where you picked up on that.
Probably the same place you picked up the idea I said all kids today are little ****s and the only the military can fix them. lol
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When was the last time the US military had to defend?
As far as I can tell, it's just for invading nations and lining the pockets of the already-rich.
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9/11?
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9/11?
Not really a real military offensive in the traditional sense... But then again I doubt a real military offensive is much use nowadays anyway.
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9/11?
Not really a real military offensive in the traditional sense... But then again I doubt a real military offensive is much use nowadays anyway.
Yes, well I'm pretty sure the US Army associated 'Oil' and 'Iraq' with a 'Military Offensive' somewhere down the line. "Operation Iraqi Freedom" my.****in.ass.
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Wish I could find the article on the time the US Military declared some War Games null and void because the military 'lost' a load of vital assets to the general who was playing the enemy.
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Wait, you're saying that the US military said that wargames where the US loses don't count?
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We don't like our pride hurt...especially since we keep losing dogfights to the Indians. :p
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We don't like our pride hurt...especially since we keep losing dogfights to the Indians.
Good one!
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There was also one where an iconoclastic US officer, playing as the Iranians, butchered most of the US Navy with low-tech dirty tactics.
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That's the one I'm thinking about I think, they declared the games void and wanted to restart.
If only you could do that in real life....
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We don't like our pride hurt...especially since we keep losing dogfights to the Indians. :p
If you'd check the rules of engagement, you'd find the war games with India are meant to show the USAF needs a bigger budget for F-22's.
story (http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/06-18-04.asp)
"–“The exercise, in which US F-15Cs were said to have been defeated more than 90 per cent of the time in direct combat exercises against the IAF, is causing US Air Force officials to re-evaluate the way the service trains its fighter pilots while bolstering the case for buying the F/A-22 as a way to ensure continued air dominance for the United States.”"
...
"In Cope Thunder, four F-15Cs were pitted against 10 or 12 of same model Indian fighters such as the Mirage 2000, MIG-27 and MIG-29s in offensive and defensive counter air scenarios. But the two most formidable IAF aircraft proved to be the MIG-21 Bison, an upgraded version of the Russian-made baseline MIG-21, and the Sukhoi SU-30K Flanker, US officials said."
...
""The major takeaway for the Air Force is that our prediction of needing to replace the F-15 with the F/A-22 is proving out as we get smarter and smarter about other [countries'] capabilities around the world and what technology is limited to in the F-15 airframe," Col. Snodgrass said. "We've taken [the F-15] about as far as we can and it's now time to move to the next generation." "
I've also read somewhere (can't find the source) that the F-15's were limited to AIM-7 Sparrows and onboard sensors, and the Indians could cheat- the AWACS which was acting as a referee gave India radar support, and they were free to use their whole arsenal.
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Maybe the US pilots should try harder. :p (Joking! joking....)
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Especially since the dogfights are more scarce nowadays.
Then again, the Indians I don't think that the Indians cheated that much on the other hand. They had a radar that could monitor the whole airspace while US pilots didn't. It's pilot's and CO's job to deal with it. It is not that unrealistic, even though AWACS has been available for US. But what if it isn't?
Besides, what's the rationale of getting into dogfight with Su-27? That simply doesn't make sense. If you have better radar and missiles you use them and run. Massive furball is their plan and you stay away from it and do everything you can to break or to find holes in their plans.
Mika